Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 0:34:28	Hello. I am playing a Druid in a current campaign that is doing the age of worms. One of the things that I would like to do (as I'm sure everyone else would as well) is use wild shape to turn into a legendary Ape and wield a staff and tear things to pieces. my DM has ruled that an ape cannot use he staff, since the creature naturally uses its fists and walks on its knuckles. I know that my DM's word is law, but I was wondering what everyone else thinks about this ruling and if anyone else can suggest a good creature to turn into given that I can't use melee weapons in animal form.
#2 nebo Mar 29, 2008 0:46:45	What level are you? Also, your DM is stupid; opposable thumbs + human intelligence = can use a weapon.
#3 The_Orange_Pet Mar 29, 2008 0:59:18	Briarvex from MM4 is the next best Tool-User form. See if your DM will let you swing a Spiked Club in that form.
#4 jaronk Mar 29, 2008 0:59:25	Show him this. JaronK
#5 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 1:50:54	I believe that my Dm has more of a problem with this because more than anything it makes the Druid easily the most broken class in the entire game. And by the way, I respect the rules of my Dm, if I didn't I wouldn't play with him. So watch your mouth and do not insult him, he is not an idiot, he just looks for more of a balance in the game. But anyways, yeah, thanks. Hopefully I can get him to allow this. On a relative subject, a legendary ape can wear armor still, but is this really worth it? I mean, a druid can't wear heavy armor, and the penalties still apply when wearing armor, so a druid wildshaped wearing medium armor still has the armor check penatlies and such. So my next question becomes, is it better to just buy a monk's belt and then up your wisdom and buy some bracers of armor? thanks in advance again. Sorry if i got upset about insulting the dm, but I really respect him and he's easily the best dm i've ever played with
#6 tsuyoshikentsu Mar 29, 2008 2:09:36	So my next question becomes, is it better to just buy a monk's belt and then up your wisdom and buy some bracers of armor? Yes.
#7 cannibalsmith Mar 29, 2008 2:11:53	I think your DM is right. Opposable thumbs are not enough - you also need stature and balance to use a weapon proficiently. If I was him, I'd give you nonproficinecy penalty (-4 to attack) with manufactured weapons in ape form.
#8 zillah Mar 29, 2008 2:30:32	take the form of a cave troll or war troll? or just any troll? legendary ape is cool and all, but you could take war troll and pick up a bastard sword or something along those lines to REALLY tear stuff up. I doubt he would say " a troll can't use human weapons" and if he did then you should have a "wtf" friend talk. as far as druids being the most broken class, NO. cleric- maybe, wizard/sorc- maybe. druid??? no. like i said, your best bet is a war troll, formorian, cave troll, and such. if you take Master of Many forms PrC, it opens up alot of niffty things for you. Just remember that druids aren't OP, they are just versatile. very very versatile. I ran a 5 druid/5 warshaper/10 MoMF build and I didn't do alot of damage, but man could I do EVERYTHING. lol
#9 jaronk Mar 29, 2008 2:54:32	I believe that my Dm has more of a problem with this because more than anything it makes the Druid easily the most broken class in the entire game. Well... they're tied with 4 other classes, if that helps any! But yes, they're stupidly powerful. JaronK
#10 Chaos_Redefined Mar 29, 2008 3:01:21	As for the AC bonus, consider this: Wild Armor costs a +3 bonus, and you have to have a +1 enhancement already. So that costs you, at minimum, a +4. Total is 16000 for the enhancements, 350 for the masterwork = 16350. Put this on some hide armor, and we are paying 16365, for +4. (Hide is the best armor in core taht a druid can use.) Alternatively, you could spend 4000 for a wilding clasp, and 13000 for a monk's belt. 17000 total. Assuming a starting wisdom of 18, and putting all stat boosts into wisdom, with no other wisdom boosts, we get +5 AC. At level 8, it increases to +6. At level 16, it increases to +7. Remember, that is no including the periapt of wisdom that you will probably be picking up. So... for an extra 635 gp, you can ditch the armor penalties and get a +1 to AC, minimum. It's up to you.
#11 alastar Mar 29, 2008 8:14:35	hmmmmm, how bout.... you know.... dragonhide full plate.... Is that core? yeah I think it is... Personally, I'll stick with my Dragonhide or duskwoodleaves armor that has the wild enchantment, and my shield treated the same way, than ask the cleric to cast magic vestment twice on them, or... you know, shapechange into a planetar and do it myself. Maximum AC obtainable from monk's belt: 14 Ac from +5 full PLate and +5 wooden shield: 20 it's a bit more expensive, but oh so worth it.
#12 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 14:23:28	first off. dragonhide wild armor DOES NOT WORK because a druid is not proficent with heavy armor If i took the feat for it then yes, but frankly it's not worth the feat for a little bit to my armor class. Anyways, my Dm said what was basically said earlier. A ape can use a weapon because it had opposable thumbs, but it could not attack proficiently with it, because an ape does not possess the balance necessary to stand on its hind legs while swinging a staff 2-4 times in six seconds. that was his ruling, and it seems that one person agrees. And yes I am not going to wear armor at all, I don't like the check penalties and the restriction on speed has only equaled death to me in the past. I mean, dragon hide full plate still has a -5 penalty to most skill checks. Not that my character is sneaky in any way, but I still do not like the option. And i'm sorry but why are you assuming that you can use a shield while wild shaped? I don't read anywhere that this is allowed unless your new form is once again capable of wielding thus shield? I could be wrong on that aspect however
#13 alastar Mar 29, 2008 14:38:38	Wild The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen. Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus. I was referring to that, and yes, i forgot the druid did not have heavy armor proficiency. But, however, if you,re outside core a bit, darkleaf armor from eberon is a bit like mithral. And works for druids. So you could have a Darkleaf Full Plate that is considered medium armor and you'd have no penalties. Make it Nimble afterwards (so a great total of +5, +1 base, +3 Wild, +1 Nimble) and you have a full plate with -1 to skill checks, and +4 max dex bonuses. all of that doesn't really matter anyways, cause you're just going to Wild Shape with it and keep those tasty armor bonuses while in your legendary ape form.
#14 tsuyoshikentsu Mar 29, 2008 14:39:35	An APE may not be, but YOU are.
#15 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 14:55:07	An APE may not be, but YOU are. But when you wildshape you take the physical restrictions of the animal that you are wildshaping into. For instance, if I was an angel that took a wildshape of a goat, I would lose wings and no longer be able to fly. So a human wildshaping into a gorilla has no better ability to balance and attack with a staff using its hind legs than a regular gorilla does. Gets kinda confusing but that's the two rules i'm coming up against.
#16 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 14:56:02	I was referring to that, and yes, i forgot the druid did not have heavy armor proficiency. But, however, if you,re outside core a bit, darkleaf armor from eberon is a bit like mithral. And works for druids. So you could have a Darkleaf Full Plate that is considered medium armor and you'd have no penalties. Make it Nimble afterwards (so a great total of +5, +1 base, +3 Wild, +1 Nimble) and you have a full plate with -1 to skill checks, and +4 max dex bonuses. all of that doesn't really matter anyways, cause you're just going to Wild Shape with it and keep those tasty armor bonuses while in your legendary ape form. We do play outside of core, but EVERY SINGLE one of my players hates Eberon to death. Will never ever play in it, and I am the same. Just not fun to play in so we avoid it all together. SO sadly darkleaf armor does not work for me. Thanks for replying so quickly however
#17 tsuyoshikentsu Mar 29, 2008 15:39:41	You're missing the point. An ape has the ability to balance on its back legs. You, the druid, know how to maintain balance and how to fight with a quarterstaff. Therefore, you should be able to, because you're not an ape -- you're an ape with the mind of a man.
#18 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 16:14:40	You're missing the point. An ape has the ability to balance on its back legs. You, the druid, know how to maintain balance and how to fight with a quarterstaff. Therefore, you should be able to, because you're not an ape -- you're an ape with the mind of a man. Oh no bud I agree with you, and like I said I think my DM does too, but I just believe that he is doing it as more of a balancing aspect.. Maybe I can talk him into doing it with a few restrictions on creeping cold.. Man my group hates that spell =)!
#19 lostpassworddoesnotwork Mar 29, 2008 17:06:48	I'd drop the entire argument. Sage has already said you cannot shape into templated creatures, which is a bit more offical than the argument an ape with 10 int can walk around on two feet all day. After all, an ape's muscles are not used to it even if you could. On a side note, who cares about the staff? Don't the unarmed attack of an legendary ape deal 1d8 instead of the staff's 1d6? Buy a necklace of IForgot and deal more damage.
#20 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 17:09:50	I'd drop the entire argument. Sage has already said you cannot shape into templated creatures, which is a bit more offical than the argument an ape with 10 int can walk around on two feet all day. After all, an ape's muscles are not used to it even if you could. On a side note, who cares about the staff? Don't the unarmed attack of an ape deal 1d8 instead of the staff's 1d6? Buy a necklace of IForgot and deal more damage. Is the Legendary ape a template? Its the same arguement for Dire animals correct? I mean Dire is not a template.... and druids can turn into Dire Animals, so why not legendary ones?
#21 lostpassworddoesnotwork Mar 29, 2008 17:13:12	O.o I thought legendary was a template... Edit - I was thinking of the MMII's Monster of Legend (which can be applied to animals), lol oops >.>
#22 bloodofgods Mar 29, 2008 17:19:43	O.o I thought legendary was a template... Edit - I was thinking of the MMII's Monster of Legend (which can be applied to animals), lol oops >.> It's quite alright. legendary just means your... well.... Legendary.... One thing to keep in mind is that ANY DRUID who wants to become one has to have seen on in his campaign before.. A lot of DM's miss this point and it's one great way to nerf the druid's wild shape
#23 panserbjorn_x Mar 29, 2008 19:22:10	You should just get a Mouthpick Scimitar (LoM). No need to worry that your hands are occupied with supporting your hippotamic body. ~P_X~
#24 dtfarstar Mar 29, 2008 20:14:19	@LostPasswordDoesNotWork - You want a staff so you can cast spikes and/or brambles(I forget if they still stack or if they ever did.) and two-hand it. 1d6+(Str*1.5)+10(Spikes)+5(enhancement) is generally better damage than anything you can get with monkey paws. Especially if you are facing DR 15. Chris
#25 Chaos_Redefined Mar 29, 2008 21:38:06	Actually, the +10 and +5 don't stack... They are both enhancement bonuses. Still, 1d6 + (1.5*str) + 10 is still good.
#26 atomickitkat Mar 30, 2008 11:28:24	Don't forget the all-important Shillelagh.;)
#27 nanshork Mar 30, 2008 12:35:33	It's quite alright. legendary just means your... well.... Legendary.... One thing to keep in mind is that ANY DRUID who wants to become one has to have seen on in his campaign before.. A lot of DM's miss this point and it's one great way to nerf the druid's wild shape A lot of DM's miss that point because it's a houserule.
#28 cannibalsmith Mar 30, 2008 12:38:15	A lot of DM's miss that point because it's a houserule. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape
#29 nanshork Mar 30, 2008 12:47:43	But what constitutes familiar? I have read about animals that I've never encountered, I'd say that I'm at least somewhat familiar with them. The rules are very vague on that subject, so limiting 'familiar' to mean that you have encountered it in the campaign is a houserule.
#30 cannibalsmith Mar 30, 2008 12:50:23	But what constitutes familiar? DM fiat. What I'm saying is that the familiarity rule effectively means "All your forms must pass DM approval on case-by-case basis."
#31 nanshork Mar 30, 2008 19:34:56	DM fiat. What I'm saying is that the familiarity rule effectively means "All your forms must pass DM approval on case-by-case basis." Which is why I said that having a druid only be able to wildshape into creatures they have encountered in the campaign is a houserule.
#32 atomickitkat Mar 30, 2008 23:09:41	Which is why I said that having a druid only be able to wildshape into creatures they have encountered in the campaign is a houserule. Actually, I think it falls under RAI. RAW says "familiar" and it falls upon the DM to decide the definition of "familiar"(beyond "small animal that grants Arcane casters some minor bonuses";) ).
#33 cannibalsmith Mar 31, 2008 0:22:33	Which is why I said that having a druid only be able to wildshape into creatures they have encountered in the campaign is a houserule. ... Yes. Yes, it is. But "that point" (in your initial post), by which, I assume, you mean the "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." clause, is not a house rule itself.
#34 nanshork Mar 31, 2008 0:49:36	... Yes. Yes, it is. But "that point" (in your initial post), by which, I assume, you mean the "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." clause, is not a house rule itself. No, "that point" was the following One thing to keep in mind is that ANY DRUID who wants to become one has to have seen on in his campaign before.. That statement is what I've been talking about.
#35 cannibalsmith Mar 31, 2008 1:29:43	One thing to keep in mind is that ANY DRUID who wants to become one has to get his DM agree that he's familiar with the creature. Sound good? :D
#36 nanshork Mar 31, 2008 1:34:24	One thing to keep in mind is that ANY DRUID who wants to become one has to get his DM agree that he's familiar with the creature. Sound good? :D We can agree on that.
#37 peejay Mar 31, 2008 1:59:15	We do play outside of core, but EVERY SINGLE one of my players hates Eberon to death. Will never ever play in it, and I am the same. Just not fun to play in so we avoid it all together. SO sadly darkleaf armor does not work for me. Darkleaf also appears in Arms and Equipment Guide, so presumably you can use it, and it's great. The only problem I've had with it (in low levels) is that it has no weight reduction, like mithral, so heavy armor might be hard to carry around (especially if you dislike check penalties).