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Force Missile Mage...Debuffer?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
prosedragon
Apr 15, 2008 10:23:10 Howdy folks,

The Force Missile Mage (FMM) is a class I've wanted to try for a while, I think its 'bout that time. The highest level I'll get is 12, more likely I won't even get to 11. I don't have a full build worked out yet, but tentatively it'll be:

Wizard 5/prc or wiz. 1/ FMM 4
Feats:
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Weaken
Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile
Empower Spell
Energy Gestalt
Combat Casting (prereq)

So, I know there was a thread about getting a good amount of damage from Magic Missile, but being as I can target several people a round, it seems like it might be an interesting way to debuff people. With a third level spell (and 4 feats...) I can give several people a negative level, -4 strength, and make them shaken. I also use the ability "energy missile", granted by FMM, to make the magic missile acid. Next round, I cast a regular magic missile, maybe empowered, and have it do fire damage. The enemies then become sickened (from Energy Gestalt).

I think the magic missile debuffs have some potential, especially at higher levels, when you can start twinning them, quickening...stacking several minor debuffs on one person all in one round. Not gamebreaking, but fun.

Just wanted some thoughts, or maybe another debuffing metamagic feat if y'all know of any, as I'll probably never use empower, I'll use other spells to actually do damage.
#2
Wyvernhand
Apr 15, 2008 10:43:23 I dunno about the strength penalty, but I know negative levels and fear effects explicitely stack, so long as they are from seperate castings of the spell. I'm not sure on Twin, but a Fel Frighten MM followed by a Quickened Fel Frighten MM would be almost autowin against anything vulnerable to fear. Because Twin Spell is 1 casting that produces 2 spell effects, I'm uncertain if you could have Fel Metamagic feats apply to each side of the Twin, because of the way they are worded.

Other than that, I like it. Early on, you might want to consider following up a Fel Weaken with a Ray of Enfeeblement, since nothing says that 2 different str penalties from 2 different sources wouldn't stack. Might even be worth it to skip MM and put Fel Weaken right on the Ray. Sure it wouldn't be an autohit, and it wouldn't benefit from Arcane Thesis, but it would save an action, and those are often the most precious resource.

Other thing you have to watch out for is your whole gimmick being negated by a simple Shield spell or a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.
#3
prosedragon
Apr 15, 2008 10:57:09 By the level I'm at FMM has a way to negate Shield...for the Globe I'd just have to cast the spell: "My friend the cleric is large and scary, you should run now"
#4
phoenix00
Apr 15, 2008 11:33:55 Born of Three Thunders works great with Force Missile Mage and Arcane Thesis.

First you have the energy be something non lightning.

You Energy Sub it into Lighting (-1)
You Born of Three Thunders it (-1) for two saves or sucks.

Plus you are doing -2 to the metamagic level due to how errata arcane thesis works. Throw on some higher metamagic and go to town.
#5
prosedragon
Apr 15, 2008 13:59:06 So...does that really work? That just seems crazy. Even if it does work I doubt my DM would let it fly, or any of the DMs I know...
#6
phoenix00
Apr 16, 2008 3:20:01 Yes it does work due to the errata, you must have at least another two from other metamagics, such as twin, which would cause the total metamagic to be +2.
#7
Midnight_v
Apr 16, 2008 8:49:42 I'd like to suggest Dread witch for the in Prc X, i think it'll quite often help you make people frighten with your spells instead of just shaken... + its one of the few things that make undead stay in bed and make paladins wet themselves in fear.
#8
ChristopherGroves
Apr 16, 2008 9:05:26 Fell Weaken doesn't give damage; it's a penalty so it overlaps. If it did STR damage, that would be different.

Pity your game isn't going beyond 11 or so, Dread Witch ... Born of Three Thunders ... all fun ...
#9
the_mad_linguist
Apr 16, 2008 23:59:13
So...does that really work? That just seems crazy. Even if it does work I doubt my DM would let it fly, or any of the DMs I know...

You cannot reduce the spell's level from the original. You *can* stack on a pile of metamagic (but only onto that specific spell).
#10
prosedragon
Apr 17, 2008 12:21:22 bump.

Any final thoughts before I retire this thread to its resting place, buried amidst hordes of its comrades?

Particularly on the effectiveness of stacking minor debuffs over a couple of rounds, or the effectiveness of the build in general?

If not thanks for your help thus far.
#11
shigunaru
Apr 17, 2008 12:36:27
bump.

Any final thoughts before I retire this thread to its resting place, buried amidst hordes of its comrades?

Particularly on the effectiveness of stacking minor debuffs over a couple of rounds, or the effectiveness of the build in general?

If not thanks for your help thus far.

I haven't got the issue of Dragon Magazine in which this prestige class is detailed, so I don't know if prepared casting is a prerequisite, but i would suggest you to go with sorcerer as a base class. What you are trying to accomplish is the repeated casting of one spell again and again and again, which is what sorcerers and spontaneus casters in general excel in.
With the rapid metamagic variant (or the CM feat that does basically the same thing later) and Eighten Spell you don't have to worry about those pesky Globes of Invulnerability either.
#12
Wyvernhand
Apr 17, 2008 14:15:25 One minor thing is viability at higher levels vs a single powerful opponent. Small debuffs are great against a couple of middle sized foes, especially with the level drain and weakness effect, but against a single large target (especially one immune to either effect, like a greater golem) your main debuffing strat becomes either less effective, or totally ineffective. You won't be able to stack enough negative levels on a single big creature (like a cloud giant or huge animal) before your party kills it, or it kills someone in your party. The other problem is that something that big isn't going to be as affected by stacking minor debuffs because it'll be so big and massive, it won't suffer much to hit or damage by a couple points of str and a neg level or 2.

So, I guess it all depends on what style your DM likes, attack groups of evenly powered monsters or single big bad guys. As long as you and your DM know your strengths and weaknesses, and you don't try to overspecialize yourself (even every blaster should still mem a Solid Fog!) you should be fine. Good DMs give each player a chance to shine and do their thing, and few circumstances that require quick thinking and team work to keep things entertaining.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 prosedragon Apr 15, 2008 10:23:10	Howdy folks, The Force Missile Mage (FMM) is a class I've wanted to try for a while, I think its 'bout that time. The highest level I'll get is 12, more likely I won't even get to 11. I don't have a full build worked out yet, but tentatively it'll be: Wizard 5/prc or wiz. 1/ FMM 4 Feats: Fell Drain Fell Frighten Fell Weaken Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile Empower Spell Energy Gestalt Combat Casting (prereq) So, I know there was a thread about getting a good amount of damage from Magic Missile, but being as I can target several people a round, it seems like it might be an interesting way to debuff people. With a third level spell (and 4 feats...) I can give several people a negative level, -4 strength, and make them shaken. I also use the ability "energy missile", granted by FMM, to make the magic missile acid. Next round, I cast a regular magic missile, maybe empowered, and have it do fire damage. The enemies then become sickened (from Energy Gestalt). I think the magic missile debuffs have some potential, especially at higher levels, when you can start twinning them, quickening...stacking several minor debuffs on one person all in one round. Not gamebreaking, but fun. Just wanted some thoughts, or maybe another debuffing metamagic feat if y'all know of any, as I'll probably never use empower, I'll use other spells to actually do damage.
#2 Wyvernhand Apr 15, 2008 10:43:23	I dunno about the strength penalty, but I know negative levels and fear effects explicitely stack, so long as they are from seperate castings of the spell. I'm not sure on Twin, but a Fel Frighten MM followed by a Quickened Fel Frighten MM would be almost autowin against anything vulnerable to fear. Because Twin Spell is 1 casting that produces 2 spell effects, I'm uncertain if you could have Fel Metamagic feats apply to each side of the Twin, because of the way they are worded. Other than that, I like it. Early on, you might want to consider following up a Fel Weaken with a Ray of Enfeeblement, since nothing says that 2 different str penalties from 2 different sources wouldn't stack. Might even be worth it to skip MM and put Fel Weaken right on the Ray. Sure it wouldn't be an autohit, and it wouldn't benefit from Arcane Thesis, but it would save an action, and those are often the most precious resource. Other thing you have to watch out for is your whole gimmick being negated by a simple Shield spell or a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.
#3 prosedragon Apr 15, 2008 10:57:09	By the level I'm at FMM has a way to negate Shield...for the Globe I'd just have to cast the spell: "My friend the cleric is large and scary, you should run now"
#4 phoenix00 Apr 15, 2008 11:33:55	Born of Three Thunders works great with Force Missile Mage and Arcane Thesis. First you have the energy be something non lightning. You Energy Sub it into Lighting (-1) You Born of Three Thunders it (-1) for two saves or sucks. Plus you are doing -2 to the metamagic level due to how errata arcane thesis works. Throw on some higher metamagic and go to town.
#5 prosedragon Apr 15, 2008 13:59:06	So...does that really work? That just seems crazy. Even if it does work I doubt my DM would let it fly, or any of the DMs I know...
#6 phoenix00 Apr 16, 2008 3:20:01	Yes it does work due to the errata, you must have at least another two from other metamagics, such as twin, which would cause the total metamagic to be +2.
#7 Midnight_v Apr 16, 2008 8:49:42	I'd like to suggest Dread witch for the in Prc X, i think it'll quite often help you make people frighten with your spells instead of just shaken... + its one of the few things that make undead stay in bed and make paladins wet themselves in fear.
#8 ChristopherGroves Apr 16, 2008 9:05:26	Fell Weaken doesn't give damage; it's a penalty so it overlaps. If it did STR damage, that would be different. Pity your game isn't going beyond 11 or so, Dread Witch ... Born of Three Thunders ... all fun ...
#9 the_mad_linguist Apr 16, 2008 23:59:13	So...does that really work? That just seems crazy. Even if it does work I doubt my DM would let it fly, or any of the DMs I know... You cannot reduce the spell's level from the original. You can stack on a pile of metamagic (but only onto that specific spell).
#10 prosedragon Apr 17, 2008 12:21:22	bump. Any final thoughts before I retire this thread to its resting place, buried amidst hordes of its comrades? Particularly on the effectiveness of stacking minor debuffs over a couple of rounds, or the effectiveness of the build in general? If not thanks for your help thus far.
#11 shigunaru Apr 17, 2008 12:36:27	bump. Any final thoughts before I retire this thread to its resting place, buried amidst hordes of its comrades? Particularly on the effectiveness of stacking minor debuffs over a couple of rounds, or the effectiveness of the build in general? If not thanks for your help thus far. I haven't got the issue of Dragon Magazine in which this prestige class is detailed, so I don't know if prepared casting is a prerequisite, but i would suggest you to go with sorcerer as a base class. What you are trying to accomplish is the repeated casting of one spell again and again and again, which is what sorcerers and spontaneus casters in general excel in. With the rapid metamagic variant (or the CM feat that does basically the same thing later) and Eighten Spell you don't have to worry about those pesky Globes of Invulnerability either.
#12 Wyvernhand Apr 17, 2008 14:15:25	One minor thing is viability at higher levels vs a single powerful opponent. Small debuffs are great against a couple of middle sized foes, especially with the level drain and weakness effect, but against a single large target (especially one immune to either effect, like a greater golem) your main debuffing strat becomes either less effective, or totally ineffective. You won't be able to stack enough negative levels on a single big creature (like a cloud giant or huge animal) before your party kills it, or it kills someone in your party. The other problem is that something that big isn't going to be as affected by stacking minor debuffs because it'll be so big and massive, it won't suffer much to hit or damage by a couple points of str and a neg level or 2. So, I guess it all depends on what style your DM likes, attack groups of evenly powered monsters or single big bad guys. As long as you and your DM know your strengths and weaknesses, and you don't try to overspecialize yourself (even every blaster should still mem a Solid Fog!) you should be fine. Good DMs give each player a chance to shine and do their thing, and few circumstances that require quick thinking and team work to keep things entertaining.