While we're at it, can anyone think of all the Cleric usable spells that turn you into an outsider, or more specifically the lowest level ones available to evil/nuetral Clerics? I've found Greater Visage of the Diety but I know there are others.
JaronK
JaronK
JaronK
Find Traps can be good if you're adventuring solo. Avoid Planar Effects, too.
Use 2 bows all the time instead of just 1.
Touch Range spells still can't be persisted IIRC, and +4 to dexterity isn't terribly impressive, especially compared to the +8.5 damage (large to huge, using Strongarm Bracers) and 25% range increase of righteous might.
JaronK
The new Divine agility is still touch range, but gives +10 enhancement bonus to dexterity. A lot better than the old one to say the least. The new version can be found in the Spell Compendium.
DMM Persist Polymorph into an arrow demon.
Use 2 bows all the time instead of just 1.
Can't do it with Polymorph. Draconic Polymorph would work, though.
Can't do it with Polymorph. Draconic Polymorph would work, though.
Works just fine if I turn into an Outsider first, but the people doing the competition aren't allowing it.
So yeah, I'm looking for a buff that purely buffs archery (and note I have Zen Archery, so buffing Dex won't help), because all that's really being counted here is archery abilities, not party utility.
And Divine Agility doesn't look to be persistable anyway (if it was, I'd just drop Zen Archery!).
JaronK
And Divine Agility doesn't look to be persistable anyway (if it was, I'd just drop Zen Archery!).
Yeah, it is not persistable. You could invest into a metamagic rod of Ocular spell making it persistable, but that requires some money...
Meanwhile, if Touch spells were persistable, Infernal Wound would be my choice!
JaronK
If you could get a single use per day version of that with alignment restrictions or something...
Right now, the best fourth persisted spell I can find is Blessed Aim (+2 to hit) but that's rather unimpressive. I mean, there's awesome ones for normal play, like Freedom of Movement and Lesser Mass Vigor, but I think we're only aiming for archery damage here.
JaronK
JaronK
So seriously, can no one think of any good persistable spells for a Zen Archery Cleric? I've got Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, but there's got to be something better than Blessed Aim. Anything that boosts Wisdom by a lot, perhaps?
JaronK
You didn't like the 4 suggestions I gave you? There's really not much to boost your wisdom at your level that can be persisted.
You didn't like the 4 suggestions I gave you? There's really not much to boost your wisdom at your level that can be persisted.
Divine Retaliation doesn't increase archery abilities at all, and neither does Vision of the Omniscient Eye. I don't have CC, so I'm not sure about Lore of the Gods, but Shroud of Undeath doesn't help archery either.
In this case, the goal is as much archery abilities as possible... all else is secondary.
JaronK
Edit - damn it, these don't stack. so at most it's a +10 bonus...
Obviously, if you have some way to get Ranger spells, you'll want to do that for stuff like Arrow Mind, Guided Shot, Hunter's Mercy, and so on.
If you happen to have the Knowledge Devotion feat, Lore of the Gods and Spiritual Advisor from Complete Champion could give you up to +14 on all your knowledge checks. From that, you're likely to have at least +2 attack and damage.
I do, in fact, happen to have that very feat. I just don't have CC, (I have a write up of what the feat does), so I don't know what the spells you're talking about do. They might be a good idea though.
Obviously, if you have some way to get Ranger spells, you'll want to do that for stuff like Arrow Mind, Guided Shot, Hunter's Mercy, and so on.
Which would be awesome, and if I were allowed to take a level of PrC ranger I'd be all over that, but I'm not allowed to multiclass for the challenge in question.
JaronK
I do, in fact, happen to have that very feat. I just don't have CC, (I have a write up of what the feat does), so I don't know what the spells you're talking about do. They might be a good idea though.
I'm sorry. I didn't read those spells carefully. They don't stack. (The table says one gives insight bonus, one gives divine bonus. But the text of each spell says insight.)
Still, here is what each one does.
Lore of the Gods (Clr 2): +5 insight bonus to all Knowledge checks. Bonus increases to +10 if you worship deity with the Knowledge domain
Spiritual Advisor (Clr 4): +4 insight bonus to Knowledge checks, and you can make Knowledge checks even without ranks
JaronK
Wow, yeah, I'll go with Lore of the Gods then. I'm already going Cloistered Cleric with this, so I guess I ought to get the +10... with a base +15, that's 25 before any other modifiers. Not too shabby. The sad part though is that it doesn't stack with Divine Insight, which gives +15... so not too sure.
JaronK
Then again, you use Lore of the Gods several times on different targets, while Divine insight allows you to do a single check. Remember to buy masterwork tools for another +2 to the check. That's 27 and you need to have at least 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, so you have 32 at minimum. Only four points away from that tasty +5 to attack and damage...
Then again, you use Lore of the Gods several times on different targets, while Divine insight allows you to do a single check. Remember to buy masterwork tools for another +2 to the check. That's 27 and you need to have at least 5 ranks in a knowledge skill, so you have 32 at minimum. Only four points away from that tasty +5 to attack and damage...
In the end, I opted to keep using Divine Insight instead of Lore of the Gods. There's some disagreement as to wether DI works for Knowledge Devotion (my competator claims you can't use it because the check happens before you can use immediate actions), but the higher bonus is the big thing.
I do have masterwork field guides, by the way.
JaronK
Even if you ignore the Nightstick rulings, they still cost a good 7500 or so gold a pop which eats into the budget quite a bit.
Reliquary Holy is good for 2 extra attempts. Undeath domain gives an Extra Turning feat. Planning can add extended spell to free up a feat.
I'm just curious...
So um... how do you cough up the 28 turn attempts needed for 4 persistent spells at level 10?
Even if you ignore the Nightstick rulings, they still cost a good 7500 or so gold a pop which eats into the budget quite a bit.
Reliquary Holy is good for 2 extra attempts. Undeath domain gives an Extra Turning feat. Planning can add extended spell to free up a feat.
I'm just curious...
I am guessing he is using extend/rod of extend. 14 turn attempts are a lot more manageable ;)
So um... how do you cough up the 28 turn attempts needed for 4 persistent spells at level 10?
Even if you ignore the Nightstick rulings, they still cost a good 7500 or so gold a pop which eats into the budget quite a bit.
Reliquary Holy is good for 2 extra attempts. Undeath domain gives an Extra Turning feat. Planning can add extended spell to free up a feat.
I'm just curious...
Extended Persistant Spell lasts 48 hours. I have two Nightsticks and a Charisma of 18 (with a Cloak of Charisma). That's all there is to it.
I found the spell Recital (I think that's the name) in Spell Compendium which was a big boost, that now replaces Blessed Aim.
JaronK
Owl's Insight is solid, although likewise Touch so you need trickery to Persist it (it was on some Domain-list, wasn't it?). Still, if you're a Zen Archer, that's your "I always hit"-ticket.
It's Druid only.
JaronK
Too bad prestige ranger is so bad (spend 4 feats, a domain and lose a Spellcasting Level?) because persisted Arrowmind would be lovely. And Hunter's eye of course.
For this competition I'm required to be Cleric only, so no PrCs. Otherwise I'd probably do it... there are some very nice spells I'd want (Swift Haste being the top of the list).
JaronK
Owl's Insight is solid, although likewise Touch so you need trickery to Persist it (it was on some Domain-list, wasn't it?). Still, if you're a Zen Archer, that's your "I always hit"-ticket.
Don't think it is on any domain as it is a Druid spell. At least Spell Compendium mentions no domain that has it as a spell.
I must be remembering wrong then - I recall seeing it as a part of some Cleric-build. Oh well, I'll just shut up before I blurt more bullcrap.
Could be. At least you can access it via Spell or some other domain that grants Limited Wish.
Continued assistance for JaronK would be appreciated.
Recitation, Divine Favor, Divine Vigor, Righteous Might, at level 12. Thinking about getting 7 more turn attempts and adding in two more... Antilife Shell and Blessed Aim. I figure the ability to basically force enemies to stay out of melee range ought to count as an archery improvement. If it doesn't, there's that one that shoots at the enemy as a free action once per round.
Honestly, I got nothing useful out of this thread.
JaronK
Honestly, I got nothing useful out of this thread.
There's been a serious lack of interest in here lately. Summer's just started (at least for the most of the people, I guess), and everybody's probably waiting to get their hands on the 4th edition books anyway. I've noticed that the traffic the CO board has seen in the last few weeks has been a fracture of what it used to be a few months ago.
Naw, I've pretty much got it locked up now.
Recitation, Divine Favor, Divine Vigor, Righteous Might, at level 12. Thinking about getting 7 more turn attempts and adding in two more... Antilife Shell and Blessed Aim. I figure the ability to basically force enemies to stay out of melee range ought to count as an archery improvement. If it doesn't, there's that one that shoots at the enemy as a free action once per round.
Honestly, I got nothing useful out of this thread.
JaronK
I hear you ...
btw ... remember that recitation for you will only give you +2/+2 as you do not worship a diety. (I will be ignoring the spell description that says you are invoking your diety's blessing -- as if that was a requirement for the spell, you could not cast it)
Not trying to start controversy, but that is how I will be interpretting it when we run the numbers.
Recitation, Divine Favor, Divine Vigor, Righteous Might, at level 12.
Recitation and Divine Favor are both luck bonuses, so they don't stack.
It's pretty annoying trying to find bonuses that actually stack.
Masochism and Sadism from the Book of Vile Darkness might have some potential. For each 10 points of damage you deal in a round, sadism gives you a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls (and saves and skill checks) in the next round. Masochism is the same thing, except it's for every 10 points of damage you take. Personal spells, 1 round per level, so I think they can be made Persistent. Both are "Evil" spells though.
Even though it's a luck bonus, if you deal/take a lot of damage that bonus can get pretty big.
Honestly, I got nothing useful out of this thread.
Extended Persistant Spell lasts 48 hours...
This seems to stretch the rules a bit IMO, maybe someone has seen some errata?
This seems to stretch the rules a bit IMO, maybe someone has seen some errata?
I think you mean a FAQ as there is no rules change needed.
I had the same question, talked with CustServ, who rules that it works.
Plus, the reasoning is sound ... you get to apply metamagic the most favorable way possible ...
Recitation and Divine Favor are both luck bonuses, so they don't stack.
Drat, I guess I'll drop Recitation then. It's a better overall spell but we're just going for archery damage, which doesn't include buffing the party (or even creating your own archers with Planar Ally and then buffing them).
Masochism and Sadism from the Book of Vile Darkness might have some potential. For each 10 points of damage you deal in a round, sadism gives you a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls (and saves and skill checks) in the next round. Masochism is the same thing, except it's for every 10 points of damage you take. Personal spells, 1 round per level, so I think they can be made Persistent. Both are "Evil" spells though.
The character is already Chaotic Evil, so that's not an issue. Sadism would be great, but the hard part is calculating how much of a bonus you get, since it would change based on how much you did last round. I suppose I could calculate average effects vs various amount of AC, but it's hard to figure out.
JaronK
This seems to stretch the rules a bit IMO, maybe someone has seen some errata?
You can always apply metamagics in the order that you like. Persistant [Spell] has a duration of 24 hours. Extend that and it goes to 48. Since all DMM Persistant Clerics have Extend Spell, it's a pretty obvious combo to go for.
JaronK