Fourth Edition optimizable? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fourth Edition optimizable?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
karossii
Jun 08, 2008 7:53:32 Okay, I admit I am a mediocre power builder - better than most of the people I game with, but can't hold a candle to most of the people on these boards. Which is fine for me, I usually don't optimize as well as I could, simply to help my friends (and me) enjoy the games more.

But having had the 4th edition books for several days now (got em on Wednesday), I have to admit I can't see much in the way of optimizing!

Worst of all, my favorite class (Bard) is gone, and my second favorite class (Sorcerer) is too, and my third choice (wizard) is no longer anything like what I want out of it!

On top of that, if I have read correctly (and I am sure I have), multiclassing is just non-existent. Whee, you can take a feat to 'multiclass' into a single other class - and then you only get one of that other classes AT WILL powers as an encounter power.

I like a jack of all trades character, who can step up to any situation and do a job good enough that it meets or exceeds what the rest of the party can do. I don't want to detract from any other characters, but I love the flexibility and ability to cover for others when they screw up or need help (or are unconscious), with the occasional time to shine on my own.

I like the wacky off the wall character that uses everything in an unexpected way - like only having all utility spells and no combat spells; yet somehow he manages to tweak combat effectiveness out of it anyway.

And with a couple of warlock and wizard builds I have come up with thus far, I just can't find a way to do that - not without stretching the rules to the limit of breaking them (and assuming a very new/dumb or very forgiving DM).

But aside from my personal quirkiness, I tried to come up with some powerhouse builds; Dragonborn Paladin, Tiefling Warlock, Halfling Rogue... it just wasn't working for me. And this is the main reason I came here this morning. Does anyone who has the books have any advice for either building a monster of a PC (or even for helping me in bending the rules to make something akin to the characters I described above) in 4th edition?
#2
reis
Jun 08, 2008 9:41:24 try posting on the 4e CO boards, this is the 3.5 CO board
#3
karossii
Jun 08, 2008 14:12:46 Okay, I suppose I must admit a minor defeat here... I looked for a 4th edition CO forum for a while before I posted the above - then I looked again for a longer while after I read the reply. I still just don't see it.

Wizards has somehow bedazzled me...

Can someone give me either a link or a path to follow?
#4
darksamuari
Jun 08, 2008 14:33:39 The link (Wizards community) on the bottom of this page, click it. Then click Dungeons and Dragons. On that page should be CharOp 4E or something like that. Huzzah, you're there.
#5
davethemagicweasel
Jun 08, 2008 18:05:20 CO 4e: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867

The new forum arrangements suck, that's why you couldn't find it.

As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now.
#6
karossii
Jun 08, 2008 18:17:46 Okay, Found it now, thanks all for the help. I agree that for now the forums' arrangement seem very convoluted - I am sure I will get used to it. How is D&D not under RPGs, for example?

Anyway, I'll move my question(s) over there, maybe - after I've done some more reading to prevent asking something others may have already addressed.

As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now.

That really blows, but is what I feared. It is made all the worse because I really really find myself liking 4th edition, even though I did not expect to at all. Even my minor quibbles with bits and pieces are slowly eroding the more I read the books.
#7
ShakaUVM
Jun 08, 2008 20:47:21 You figured it correctly.

WOTC didn't like people making their own characters, so in 4ed they make them for you, and give you a limited menu of options to pick from to customize your character a bit. It's much less optimizeable than 3ed because you can no longer build your own character -- if you're a fighter, you're a fighter from 1st to 30th levels, with some minor abilities to dip powers from other classes (the so-called "multiclassing") or pick from a pre-determined list of prestige classes (paragon paths and epic destinies).

4ed in many ways is less powerful even than 2ed, which at least allowed people to dual- and multi-class, as hackish and badly designed as they were. 4ed is basically 2ed with kits.
#8
phoenix00
Jun 09, 2008 22:32:19
You figured it correctly.

WOTC didn't like people making their own characters, so in 4ed they make them for you, and give you a limited menu of options to pick from to customize your character a bit. It's much less optimizeable than 3ed because you can no longer build your own character -- if you're a fighter, you're a fighter from 1st to 30th levels, with some minor abilities to dip powers from other classes (the so-called "multiclassing") or pick from a pre-determined list of prestige classes (paragon paths and epic destinies).

4ed in many ways is less powerful even than 2ed, which at least allowed people to dual- and multi-class, as hackish and badly designed as they were. 4ed is basically 2ed with kits.

So more or less the only way to do hybrid characters in 4e is gestalt? or waiting for new books?

How would gestalt work with 4e classes? Real well or ineffective? (yes I know there is no official 4e gestalt rules, but basing the rules from the 3.5 UA version till we get 4e UA).
#9
davethemagicweasel
Jun 10, 2008 4:05:07
So more or less the only way to do hybrid characters in 4e is gestalt? or waiting for new books?

How would gestalt work with 4e classes? Real well or ineffective? (yes I know there is no official 4e gestalt rules, but basing the rules from the 3.5 UA version till we get 4e UA).

I'm not convinced new books will change it given the multiclassing rules. If they create a base class that is a hybrid it'll be doable, but I don't think it's likely (e.g. Bard is being trailed as the Arcane Leader, and that would probably be the most obvious candidate for a jack of all trades).

Gestalt should work imo - with BAB totally standardised, and skills and saves very close from class to class all that matters is the combo of class abilities. Obviously some combos will be better than others (e.g. Fighter // Paladin makes an awesome defender, Rogue // Ranger for the striker). What you'd need to decide is what to do about powers - do you get the same number as usual but two lists to choose from, or double up. If it's the former, then it's a small boost in power (like, 1 or 2 CRs worth imo), if it's the latter the party will have dramatically increased stamina.
#10
jaronk
Jun 10, 2008 11:46:33
As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now.

Damn... that's exactly how I don't like to play. I mean, I love nice flexible characters, and utility support characters that can do a wide variety of things is exactly what I like.

JaronK
#11
reis
Jun 10, 2008 12:40:59

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karossii Jun 08, 2008 7:53:32	Okay, I admit I am a mediocre power builder - better than most of the people I game with, but can't hold a candle to most of the people on these boards. Which is fine for me, I usually don't optimize as well as I could, simply to help my friends (and me) enjoy the games more. But having had the 4th edition books for several days now (got em on Wednesday), I have to admit I can't see much in the way of optimizing! Worst of all, my favorite class (Bard) is gone, and my second favorite class (Sorcerer) is too, and my third choice (wizard) is no longer anything like what I want out of it! On top of that, if I have read correctly (and I am sure I have), multiclassing is just non-existent. Whee, you can take a feat to 'multiclass' into a single other class - and then you only get one of that other classes AT WILL powers as an encounter power. I like a jack of all trades character, who can step up to any situation and do a job good enough that it meets or exceeds what the rest of the party can do. I don't want to detract from any other characters, but I love the flexibility and ability to cover for others when they screw up or need help (or are unconscious), with the occasional time to shine on my own. I like the wacky off the wall character that uses everything in an unexpected way - like only having all utility spells and no combat spells; yet somehow he manages to tweak combat effectiveness out of it anyway. And with a couple of warlock and wizard builds I have come up with thus far, I just can't find a way to do that - not without stretching the rules to the limit of breaking them (and assuming a very new/dumb or very forgiving DM). But aside from my personal quirkiness, I tried to come up with some powerhouse builds; Dragonborn Paladin, Tiefling Warlock, Halfling Rogue... it just wasn't working for me. And this is the main reason I came here this morning. Does anyone who has the books have any advice for either building a monster of a PC (or even for helping me in bending the rules to make something akin to the characters I described above) in 4th edition?
#2 reis Jun 08, 2008 9:41:24	try posting on the 4e CO boards, this is the 3.5 CO board
#3 karossii Jun 08, 2008 14:12:46	Okay, I suppose I must admit a minor defeat here... I looked for a 4th edition CO forum for a while before I posted the above - then I looked again for a longer while after I read the reply. I still just don't see it. Wizards has somehow bedazzled me... Can someone give me either a link or a path to follow?
#4 darksamuari Jun 08, 2008 14:33:39	The link (Wizards community) on the bottom of this page, click it. Then click Dungeons and Dragons. On that page should be CharOp 4E or something like that. Huzzah, you're there.
#5 davethemagicweasel Jun 08, 2008 18:05:20	CO 4e: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=867 The new forum arrangements suck, that's why you couldn't find it. As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now.
#6 karossii Jun 08, 2008 18:17:46	Okay, Found it now, thanks all for the help. I agree that for now the forums' arrangement seem very convoluted - I am sure I will get used to it. How is D&D not under RPGs, for example? Anyway, I'll move my question(s) over there, maybe - after I've done some more reading to prevent asking something others may have already addressed. As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now. That really blows, but is what I feared. It is made all the worse because I really really find myself liking 4th edition, even though I did not expect to at all. Even my minor quibbles with bits and pieces are slowly eroding the more I read the books.
#7 ShakaUVM Jun 08, 2008 20:47:21	You figured it correctly. WOTC didn't like people making their own characters, so in 4ed they make them for you, and give you a limited menu of options to pick from to customize your character a bit. It's much less optimizeable than 3ed because you can no longer build your own character -- if you're a fighter, you're a fighter from 1st to 30th levels, with some minor abilities to dip powers from other classes (the so-called "multiclassing") or pick from a pre-determined list of prestige classes (paragon paths and epic destinies). 4ed in many ways is less powerful even than 2ed, which at least allowed people to dual- and multi-class, as hackish and badly designed as they were. 4ed is basically 2ed with kits.
#8 phoenix00 Jun 09, 2008 22:32:19	You figured it correctly. WOTC didn't like people making their own characters, so in 4ed they make them for you, and give you a limited menu of options to pick from to customize your character a bit. It's much less optimizeable than 3ed because you can no longer build your own character -- if you're a fighter, you're a fighter from 1st to 30th levels, with some minor abilities to dip powers from other classes (the so-called "multiclassing") or pick from a pre-determined list of prestige classes (paragon paths and epic destinies). 4ed in many ways is less powerful even than 2ed, which at least allowed people to dual- and multi-class, as hackish and badly designed as they were. 4ed is basically 2ed with kits. So more or less the only way to do hybrid characters in 4e is gestalt? or waiting for new books? How would gestalt work with 4e classes? Real well or ineffective? (yes I know there is no official 4e gestalt rules, but basing the rules from the 3.5 UA version till we get 4e UA).
#9 davethemagicweasel Jun 10, 2008 4:05:07	So more or less the only way to do hybrid characters in 4e is gestalt? or waiting for new books? How would gestalt work with 4e classes? Real well or ineffective? (yes I know there is no official 4e gestalt rules, but basing the rules from the 3.5 UA version till we get 4e UA). I'm not convinced new books will change it given the multiclassing rules. If they create a base class that is a hybrid it'll be doable, but I don't think it's likely (e.g. Bard is being trailed as the Arcane Leader, and that would probably be the most obvious candidate for a jack of all trades). Gestalt should work imo - with BAB totally standardised, and skills and saves very close from class to class all that matters is the combo of class abilities. Obviously some combos will be better than others (e.g. Fighter // Paladin makes an awesome defender, Rogue // Ranger for the striker). What you'd need to decide is what to do about powers - do you get the same number as usual but two lists to choose from, or double up. If it's the former, then it's a small boost in power (like, 1 or 2 CRs worth imo), if it's the latter the party will have dramatically increased stamina.
#10 jaronk Jun 10, 2008 11:46:33	As for your question - jack of all trades utility support characters are exactly the sort of thing 4e doesn't really allow for I'm afraid. They've diversified the healbot role around the party, the rest of it is pretty locked into your choice of class now. Damn... that's exactly how I don't like to play. I mean, I love nice flexible characters, and utility support characters that can do a wide variety of things is exactly what I like. JaronK
#11 reis Jun 10, 2008 12:40:59