Frenzied Berserker question

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

dumah87

Oct 05, 2011 7:39:54		Hi guys!

I was wondering:

how deathless frenzy works exaclty?

I mean, how many action can a Frenzied Berserk take while in frenzy, when he/she has -100 pf and 100 non-lethal damages, for example?

How DieHard interact with Deathless frenzy?

I apologize if my english language is uncorrect.

thanks you all
#2

Slagger_the_Chuul

Oct 05, 2011 8:21:35
I mean, how many action can a Frenzied Berserk take while in frenzy, when he/she has -100 pf and 100 non-lethal damages, for example?

According to the text, she "fights normally until her frenzy ends".  Add to this the fact that deathless frenzy prevents her from being treated as disabled or dying while in a frenzy, and we can tell that she can take a full round worth of actions, as if she was completely uninjured.

So, her hit points and nonlethal damage are basically unimportant while she's in a frenzy unless there's some secondary effect to consider (like being turned to dust by disintegrate if she has 0 hp or lower).

Now, I'm going to go a little further than what the rules explicitly state, and conclude that she's also immune to being unconscious due to nonlethal damage.  Deathless frenzy says that she "can scorn death and unconsciousness" while in a frenzy, and there would be no sense in the ability also stating that she is able to keep fighting at negative hit points if she would actually be unconscious due to having nonlethal damage in excess of her current hit points (since frenzy itself is constantly hitting her with nonlethal damage).

You could argue that she can therefore still be staggered in a deathless frenzy (by having nonlethal damage exactly equal to her current hit points), but that's a relatively small area of possibility for her hit point totals that can safely be left up to the DM to decide.

How DieHard interact with Deathless frenzy?

Diehard doesn't do anything extra for her once she's already in a frenzy with deathless frenzy, but it remains useful whenever she isn't in a frenzy and is also useful before she gets deathless frenzy at 4th level.
#3

dumah87

Oct 05, 2011 8:36:23
I mean, how many action can a Frenzied Berserk take while in frenzy, when he/she has -100 pf and 100 non-lethal damages, for example?

According to the text, she "fights normally until her frenzy ends".  Add to this the fact that deathless frenzy prevents her from being treated as disabled or dying while in a frenzy, and we can tell that she can take a full round worth of actions, as if she was completely uninjured.

So, her hit points and nonlethal damage are basically unimportant while she's in a frenzy unless there's some secondary effect to consider (like being turned to dust by disintegrate if she has 0 hp or lower).

Now, I'm going to go a little further than what the rules explicitly state, and conclude that she's also immune to being unconscious due to nonlethal damage.  Deathless frenzy says that she "can scorn death and unconsciousness" while in a frenzy, and there would be no sense in the ability also stating that she is able to keep fighting at negative hit points if she would actually be unconscious due to having nonlethal damage in excess of her current hit points (since frenzy itself is constantly hitting her with nonlethal damage).

You could argue that she can therefore still be staggered in a deathless frenzy (by having nonlethal damage exactly equal to her current hit points), but that's a relatively small area of possibility for her hit point totals that can safely be left up to the DM to decide.

How DieHard interact with Deathless frenzy?

Diehard doesn't do anything extra for her once she's already in a frenzy with deathless frenzy, but it remains useful whenever she isn't in a frenzy and is also useful before she gets deathless frenzy at 4th level.



This is what i was afraid of.
#4

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 05, 2011 9:23:52 		Why the resigned reaction? There are enough ways to stop a frenzied berserker that don't rely on HP damage. Try casting Grease, for instance.
#5

dumah87

Oct 07, 2011 5:00:25
Why the resigned reaction? There are enough ways to stop a frenzied berserker that don't rely on HP damage. Try casting Grease, for instance.




I'm not scared of facing a Berserk with a God Wizard.

I'm scared of facing it with a Figher or Barbarian or any other warrior build.

The only warrior build I can think are a Dervish or Archer, but they would be environment-dependent ( Ruin temple where jump and move for Dervish; Forest where hide & snipe for Archer).

Do you have any suggestion?
#6

Krusk

Oct 07, 2011 9:33:34

Where is that handy thread someone links about how we aren't your DM, and don't know your exact situation unless you tell it to us?


Dumah87- Are you facing a FB in arena combat? What level will you be? Any important house rules?


For a warrior build, don't try to outdamage a FB, you won't deal enough for him to care. Try tactics like "I snipe him. It sets off his frenzy. I hide until thats over, and do it again until he has no uses left." or "Wand of grease". A paladin or ranger with a bow and winged mount could make quick long tedious and easy work of him.

#7

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 07, 2011 14:16:33
Why the resigned reaction? There are enough ways to stop a frenzied berserker that don't rely on HP damage. Try casting Grease, for instance.




I'm not scared of facing a Berserk with a God Wizard.

I'm scared of facing it with a Figher or Barbarian or any other warrior build.

The only warrior build I can think are a Dervish or Archer, but they would be environment-dependent ( Ruin temple where jump and move for Dervish; Forest where hide & snipe for Archer).

Do you have any suggestion?


Krusk was referring to this thread: Please tell us the whole story.

Arenas, which are the only situations you'd realistically have to "face" a Frenzied Berserker as a warrior "build" alone*, have very different balance concerns and tactical guidelines, and to be helpful we'd need to know how and why you're doing that.


Of course, warriors aren't lacking for options here - so long as you think like a person and not a damage-roll factory. Pack a bag of marbles (essentially a nonmagical grease spell) and laugh. Caltrops can also trigger his frenzy early, but only if he doesn't have DR from his barbarian levels. Neither of these are contingent upon the environment.



*[spoiler]Although, now that I think of it, Neverwinter Nights 2 managed to work this very situation into the core campaign and did so reasonably well. Then again, that story was full of its own deadpan humor and tended to poke fun at its own cliches, and that scene was no exception.

And yes, he has Deathless Frenzy there too, which makes it a real pain to beat him conventionally. I found it was easiest with an invisibility potion. [/sblock]
#8

dumah87

Oct 09, 2011 5:55:18

Where is that handy thread someone links about how we aren't your DM, and don't know your exact situation unless you tell it to us?


Dumah87- Are you facing a FB in arena combat? What level will you be? Any important house rules?


For a warrior build, don't try to outdamage a FB, you won't deal enough for him to care. Try tactics like "I snipe him. It sets off his frenzy. I hide until thats over, and do it again until he has no uses left." or "Wand of grease". A paladin or ranger with a bow and winged mount could make quick long tedious and easy work of him.




Why the resigned reaction? There are enough ways to stop a frenzied berserker that don't rely on HP damage. Try casting Grease, for instance.




I'm not scared of facing a Berserk with a God Wizard.

I'm scared of facing it with a Figher or Barbarian or any other warrior build.

The only warrior build I can think are a Dervish or Archer, but they would be environment-dependent ( Ruin temple where jump and move for Dervish; Forest where hide & snipe for Archer).

Do you have any suggestion?


Krusk was referring to this thread: Please tell us the whole story.

Arenas, which are the only situations you'd realistically have to "face" a Frenzied Berserker as a warrior "build" alone*, have very different balance concerns and tactical guidelines, and to be helpful we'd need to know how and why you're doing that.


Of course, warriors aren't lacking for options here - so long as you think like a person and not a damage-roll factory. Pack a bag of marbles (essentially a nonmagical grease spell) and laugh. Caltrops can also trigger his frenzy early, but only if he doesn't have DR from his barbarian levels. Neither of these are contingent upon the environment.



*[spoiler]Although, now that I think of it, Neverwinter Nights 2 managed to work this very situation into the core campaign and did so reasonably well. Then again, that story was full of its own deadpan humor and tended to poke fun at its own cliches, and that scene was no exception.

And yes, he has Deathless Frenzy there too, which makes it a real pain to beat him conventionally. I found it was easiest with an invisibility potion. [/sblock]




Hi guys,

thanks for your replies.

You're right I didn't give to you all the information; mine was a theoric talk, where you have to face a FB, Anywhere, No house rules, and given that the discussion is about Deathless Frenzy, at least 11 level.

What i meant is ( and I see that you agree with me) that besides sniping (archer build), no close-combact build can win against a FB, no tank, no damage-dealer, and so on...

To be more specific, I was looking for a WAY to beat him. I was looking for the FB's weak spot. Sniping is ok; make him waste his Frenzy too; marbles and caltrops ar nice, but they can be easily avoided by a fly potion/boots.
#9

draco1119

Oct 09, 2011 7:23:19
What i meant is ( and I see that you agree with me) that besides sniping (archer build), no close-combact build can win against a FB, no tank, no damage-dealer, and so on...

Tripping.
#10

Krusk

Oct 09, 2011 9:22:13

marbles and caltrops ar nice, but they can be easily avoided by a fly potion/boots.


Not by someone in a frenzy. (IIRC away from books, they can't use activated items)


But no, there is no way to deal enough damage to kill a berserker in a frenzy. You could attempt to get an AC high enough where they can't hit you, but odds are good they have the feat to drop AC instead of attack on power attack, and they won't be missing.


You could get some UMD, and get a miss chance. Might help.



#11

aelryinth

Oct 09, 2011 17:03:11 		Shock trooper's power attack trick only works on a charge, so it IS possible to get an AC that high, and you will beat him in DoT...the problem is outlasting his unkillable state, which could be quite difficult.

A turtling shield fighter with expertise can get his AC to basically unhittable status, and still be able to pound on the frenzied barb due to his stacking AC penalties.  just make sure the barb doesn't charge you, and you're golden. If he hits on the charge, one hit could wipe you.  Triple damage full power attack + 2xdmg charge attacks can really, really suck.

==Aelryinth
#12

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 09, 2011 17:29:10
Shock trooper's power attack trick only works on a charge, so it IS possible to get an AC that high, and you will beat him in DoT...the problem is outlasting his unkillable state, which could be quite difficult.

A turtling shield fighter with expertise can get his AC to basically unhittable status, and still be able to pound on the frenzied barb due to his stacking AC penalties.  just make sure the barb doesn't charge you, and you're golden. If he hits on the charge, one hit could wipe you.  Triple damage full power attack + 2xdmg charge attacks can really, really suck.

==Aelryinth




...You know, I'd forgotten about this until I read your post, but you need line of sight to charge the target at all:
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

 I'd originally remembered this because it made the warlock's Wall of Gloom more than useless, but here, a simple smokestick might be enough, as would blinding him.

This may not work on a normal ubercharger after a certain point (since they can still use activated magic gear, amongst other things), but the berserker's simple-minded frenzy works against him and won't let him charge a target he can't see.  
#13

Slagger_the_Chuul

Oct 10, 2011 1:20:03
A turtling shield fighter with expertise can get his AC to basically unhittable status, and still be able to pound on the frenzied barb due to his stacking AC penalties.  just make sure the barb doesn't charge you, and you're golden. If he hits on the charge, one hit could wipe you.  Triple damage full power attack + 2xdmg charge attacks can really, really suck.

The tactic could be basically described as "Turtle to the Face."

As long as you can stay close enough to the frenzied berserker, she can't charge you.  If she backs off, she can't charge in the same turn, and on your turn, you follow her.  It obviously requires that you can keep up with her (whether because of speed or the restrictions of the environment, like walls), but at least the lion totem barbarian favoured for this sort of thing has traded out their fast movement.
#14

Krusk

Oct 10, 2011 12:06:28

Relying on a high AC and standing next to them is risky. Frenzy usually lasts 10ish rounds. (very rough). Odds are good with 3-5 attacks a round, they will get at least one crit in that time.


Buying heavy foritified, being undead/robot or other crit immunity will help, but the multiplied damage isn't the problem. The damage is the problem, multiplying it just multiplies it.

#15

Slagger_the_Chuul

Oct 10, 2011 13:02:37
Relying on a high AC and standing next to them is risky. Frenzy usually lasts 10ish rounds. (very rough). Odds are good with 3-5 attacks a round, they will get at least one crit in that time.

Buying heavy foritified, being undead/robot or other crit immunity will help, but the multiplied damage isn't the problem. The damage is the problem, multiplying it just multiplies it.


It's generally better than allowing someone built for charging (in this particular case of the frenzied berserker) to use her favoured tactic against you, and if you're facing her as part of an adventuring party, you aren't exactly alone.  Your job in that circumstance is to just keep the frenzied berserker from unleashing her full potential and cutting a swathe through you and your allies.

If, instead, it's an arena fight between you and her, and the only option you have besides dealing hit point damage is to outlast her frenzy, you had better have some darn good staying power.  If you do have defences like immunity to critical hits and perhaps some damage reduction, staying in close enough to prevent her from charging might just be enough.  If you've got Improved Sunder (or even just a reach weapon if she doesn't), you can consider hacking away at any fancy-looking gear she might be wearing in the hope of taking out a belt of giant strength or similarly important item.


For one-on-one arena combat, however, there's one additional option; the readied dodge.  You simply ready an action to move away just as she gets close enough to hit you.  If she charged, you've moved away just before she could attack; if she merely moves in, she still needs to use her second move to follow you.  If you've got enough ranks in Tumble to be reliable, you can move away safely even if she gets right next to you with her second move, and if you want to really annoy her, you can keep putting just 5 feet between you so that she can't even attempt to charge.


Game mechanics aside, this tactic involves dancing about just out of reach until she gets tired.  It's useless against ranged attacks or multiple enemies, of course, but it's a great way to draw out single combat against a melee beatstick.

#16

Krusk

Oct 10, 2011 15:49:25
you aren't exactly alone.  Your job in that circumstance is to just keep the frenzied berserker from unleashing her full potential and cutting a swathe through you and your allies.

If, instead, it's an arena fight between you and her, and the only option you have besides dealing hit point damage is to outlast her frenzy, you had better have some darn good staying power.




I seriously think hiding does both of these functions better. "Rope Trick, brb".


Alternativley, a simple hide check and wait works great if you don't have friends to hide. Jump into a tree and hide, see if they can ever find you. If you do have friends you say "F this noise, I am hidden. You should probably do something as well". One is bound to be a caster, who can one round stop the FB with grease/calm emotions/rope trick.


For an arena, you could also do some funny stuff with lots of dimension door style spells. Bullfight.


If you see a FB coming your way, just hide until they get tired. Then fight.



#17

aelryinth

Oct 10, 2011 18:00:48 		A fighter with a Shield, Defensively fighting and with Expertise can get his AC to the point where a FB needs a 15 to hit with a primary attack, and a nat 20 with secondaries. A confirming roll for a crit is not likely to happen at all, actually. It's the fact that the one that does hit every 3rd round is going to REALLY HURT.

Your best option is probably to turtle tank him with a sword of wounding and just whittle him down. Every 2 points of con reduces his rage duration, further tanks his HP, and if you happen to get it to 0, he is going to die regardless of frenzy. SUperior Wounding, at 2 Con/blow, could accomplish this in 3-4 rounds.

==Aelryinth
#18

dumah87

Oct 12, 2011 8:31:41

For one-on-one arena combat, however, there's one additional option; the readied dodge.  You simply ready an action to move away just as she gets close enough to hit you.  If she charged, you've moved away just before she could attack; if she merely moves in, she still needs to use her second move to follow you.  If you've got enough ranks in Tumble to be reliable, you can move away safely even if she gets right next to you with her second move, and if you want to really annoy her, you can keep putting just 5 feet between you so that she can't even attempt to charge.




I LOVE THIS!

Now I've just to figure out how gain a free attack while she/he's chargin' me.  Any ideas?
#19

sirpercival

Oct 12, 2011 10:51:15 		Be a half-elf, dip a bard level to get calm emotions.  End the frenzy.
#20

dumah87

Oct 12, 2011 10:58:56
Be a half-elf, dip a bard level to get calm emotions.  End the frenzy.



Or maybe I could have a 19 level dip wizard and onslaught him/her!
The point of this thread is to beat a Berserk without being a spellcaster.
#21

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 12, 2011 14:32:53
Be a half-elf, dip a bard level to get calm emotions.  End the frenzy.



Or maybe I could have a 19 level dip wizard and onslaught him/her!
The point of this thread is to beat a Berserk without being a spellcaster.


Any gnome is more magical than a single level of bard - the latter has a few cantrips, the former has first-level spell-like abilities. Especially because the Half Elf Hippie isn't actually using magic.

The Half-Elf Hippie uses the Half Elf Bard substitution level to add Calm Emotions as a bardic music effect (DC = Diplomacy check, as I recall), based around a half-elf's supposed way with words to get people to talk instead of fight. In the archetypal version, it is usually combined with a level of Warlock (Beguiling Influence, +6 Diplomacy), a level of Marshal (free Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Motivate Charisma aura, adding +CHA to all charisma-based skill checks - yes, it's weird, run with it), and a level of Binder (for a pact with Naberius - who, among other things, lets you take 10 on Diplomacy when threatened and rush it (one round instead of one minute) without the -10 penalty). Assuming 15 starting Charisma, by the end of level 4, you've got a diplomacy modifier so high that you can turn even Hostile creatures Friendly in one round. If battle's already started or they're raging, that's when the Calm Emotions ability comes in - DC 40 is kind of hard for even a frenzied berserker to make.

Not what you're looking for, but not for the reasons you're saying it isn't.
#22

dumah87

Oct 12, 2011 14:58:48

Any gnome is more magical than a single level of bard - the latter has a few cantrips, the former has first-level spell-like abilities. Especially because the Half Elf Hippie isn't actually using magic.


Not what you're looking for, but not for the reasons you're saying it isn't.



I apologize for my lacks. For "Calm emotions" I've comprehended "Calm emotion" spell (Bard level 3 dip), not "Calm emotion" obtained trough Half elf Bard Substitution Level 1 "Soothing voice"... My bad.

Anyway that's not what i was looking for. A "diplomancer" it's not a warrior. it's a NOT-warrior, and it seems built with the specific goal to end a rage/frenzy, not to "maybe" face a FB.
#23

sirpercival

Oct 12, 2011 16:16:38 		Another method to stop the charging is to throw down a thicket of blades / stand still lockdown crusader.  If they can't go anywhere they can't charge you.  That means you have to be right next to a FB for an extended period of time, but a crusader should hopefully be able to hold his own.

EDIT:  Or, another way is to do a fear build, as long as your FB hasn't taken the Fearless regional feat.  Desert Half-Orc Barb 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Zhentarim Fighter 10/Champion of Gwynharwyf 4/Horizon Walker 1 is the classic build, but if you're looking for lower level you could just do Zhent Fighter 5.  Make the FB cower for 24 hours and beat the crap out of it. 
#24

draco1119

Oct 12, 2011 19:03:01
Another method to stop the charging is to throw down a thicket of blades / stand still lockdown crusader.  If they can't go anywhere they can't charge you.  That means you have to be right next to a FB for an extended period of time, but a crusader should hopefully be able to hold his own.

Not necessarily.  If you throw Hold the Line into the mix (either with Stand Still or Improved Trip), that gives you two AoOs if wielding a reach weapon (unless the FB is wielding a reach weapon also *shudder*).  If you can somehow manage to be large (Goliath's Mountain Rage, Enlarge Person, Expansion, etc) that gives you four chances for an AoO.

#25

sirpercival

Oct 12, 2011 19:26:57
Another method to stop the charging is to throw down a thicket of blades / stand still lockdown crusader.  If they can't go anywhere they can't charge you.  That means you have to be right next to a FB for an extended period of time, but a crusader should hopefully be able to hold his own.

Not necessarily.  If you throw Hold the Line into the mix (either with Stand Still or Improved Trip), that gives you two AoOs if wielding a reach weapon (unless the FB is wielding a reach weapon also *shudder*).  If you can somehow manage to be large (Goliath's Mountain Rage, Enlarge Person, Expansion, etc) that gives you four chances for an AoO.


True... but you still have to be close enough that he can't charge you.  And that means he's close enough to melee you too, since he has the same options in terms of reach that you do.
#26

Slagger_the_Chuul

Oct 12, 2011 21:04:09
Be a half-elf, dip a bard level to get calm emotions.  End the frenzy.

Or maybe I could have a 19 level dip wizard and onslaught him/her!
The point of this thread is to beat a Berserk without being a spellcaster.

Any gnome is more magical than a single level of bard - the latter has a few cantrips, the former has first-level spell-like abilities. Especially because the Half Elf Hippie isn't actually using magic.

The Half-Elf Hippie uses the Half Elf Bard substitution level to add Calm Emotions as a bardic music effect (DC = Diplomacy check, as I recall), based around a half-elf's supposed way with words to get people to talk instead of fight.

As bardic music, it's still magic (the soothing effect itself is even marked as a supernatural ability), it's just not a spell.
#27

aelryinth

Oct 12, 2011 22:16:43 		Hold the Line hits them as they enter your reach, and, if successful, pushes them back out of that square, so they can't hit you.

You do have to be braced against the charge, however. Oh, wait, that means your AoO is double damage. Imagine that.

==Aelryinth