Hello all. This is my first post on these forums, but I've been lurking for a while and I like to think of myself as having a reasonably solid grasp on D&D in general. I’ve been playing a lot of caster-types recently (Sorcerer/Wizard/Psion) and wanted to go back to a more melee orientated ‘I hit it with my metal stick until it dies’ build. My psion was a bit of a tank so I’m leaning in a glass canon direction.
I haven’t got a complete build yet; this is more to throw around ideas. I’ve wanted to play a frenzied berserker for a while so figured this’d be a great opportunity. I remember seeing, at some point in these forums history someone suggest a build that played on the idea of losing AC during a rage/frenzy and completely ran with it, finally going into negative AC in the end I believe.
I’ve been looking at feats and there seems to be a lot of interesting things you could do with this but have run into some questions that I believe may or may not have been answered before, but the forum switch seems to have wiped a lot of the old threads.
So, basics. Start with an 18 STR and take any race that gives it a bonus. Water Orc works well here with its +4STR and +2CON but anything would do really.
Now we start with Barbarian and attempt to get into Frenzied Berserker as early as possible, likely with some levels of our old friend the fighter.
I’m thinking
1: Barb 1 (Lion-totem variant for pounce)
2: Fighter 1
3:Fighter 2
4-6: Any full BaB classes (probably fighter for the bonus feat)
7: Frenzied Berserker
For the sake of argument, let’s assume levels 4 & 5 are fighter and 6 is anything we want. This gives us 6 feats, if I’m counting correctly, up to level 7 (if we’re not human). Now, 4 of those will have to be spent on FB pre-reqs: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage and Destructive Rage. So what do we do with the remaining 2 plus the others we gain at higher levels? Well, here is where we split the build into two distinct sections, optimising power attack damage and crashing AC through the floor (it’ll be low anyway, why not see how low we can get it, any extras we get from the tradeoff are a bonus?) But they should interact reasonably nicely anyway.
So, Maximising Power Attack bonuses:
Special Abilities:
If we take FB through to 10th level (I know this isn’t strictly optimal, but I like the higher level abilities) we gain access to Supreme Power Attack . Now as we’ll be using a two-handed weapon, most likely a great sword, this will give us a power attack ratio of 1:4, -1 to hit for +4 to damage.
Feats:
Combat brute CW110- The Momentum Swing ability here say that if we power attack on a charge for at least +5 we gain a bonus on PA damage in the subsequent round = x3 with our two handed great sword. Now here is the first question:
How does this interact with Supreme PA? Do we use the standard rule of adding multipliers with iterative multiplications taking -1 to the total here, under multiplying header to get x4 + (x3 -1) = x6?
Now a similar question arises when we add in Leap Attack (CAdv110) which states that if we jump at least 10 feet as part of our charge we will triple our power attack damage with our two handed weapon, does this add again to give a multiple of x6, like before?
Unfortunately we can’t combine all 3 of these into one ungodly multiplier because they explicitly state that Leap Attack must work on the round you charge and Momentum Swing must work on the second.
I’m not sure exactly what else could be added to this to increase PA multipliers but this seems pretty good none the less.
So, if we take all of this we’ll require 3 more feats, improved sunder as a pre-req for combat brute, combat brute itself and leap attack.
So, that makes 7 feats so far.
Now onto the more exciting part of the build Minimising AC .
So, as far as I can tell, these feats would be useful, but there may be others I’ve missed:
Reckless Charge (mini27) -4 to AC on charge, but we gain +4 to attack instead of +2.
Reckless Rage RoS143 an additional -2 to AC whilst raging in exchange for a further +2 to STR and CON
Khybers Fury (Dragon #322p45) Another -2 to AC whilst raging, but also another +2 to our strength. Now, with this feat we can no longer end our rage voluntarily, but as we’ll be frenzying, that seems kind of redundant anyway. Also some RP reqs, but we’re not worrying about those too much.
Shock Trooper CW112 Now, here’s the big one. Heedless Charge let’s us sacrifice AC instead of ‘to hit’ on a power attack if it’s >-5, which it will be, up to our base attack bonus. This should mean that at level 20 we can take a full power attack for -20 AC, but no penalty to hit on a charge.
Taking all of these is another 5 feats (Shock Trooper has Improved Bull Rush as a pre-req.)
That brings us to a grand total of 12. A normal character gets 7 so to get all this in we’ll need some more levels of fighter, we should have room for 9 in total, but that doesn’t work so we’ll say 8. That gives us another 5. Bringing our total up to 12. If we go human and sacrifice the +STR, which at this point doesn’t seem too much of a loss we'll net another one. Any suggestions for this would be appreciated, I though about Mad Foam Rager (delay the effect of an attack or spell used against you for one round whilst raging) from the PHB2 to up guarantee of attack at lower levels, but it becomes redundant once we have Deathless Frenzy. As such I'm thinking Extra Rage to couteract only haveing one level of Barbarian. The final class level could be taken in anything, although full BAB would be nice.
Now, maths time:
On a charge, whilst raging and frenzying and power attack for maximum, whilst jumping and using all our charge related abilities we get:
+18STR unnamed bonus (not including bonus from items, level bumps etc) +4[rage] +10[greater frenzy] +2[Kyber] +2[Reckless rage]
Looking at it, this seems low to me, but then again, this build isn’t really about maximising STR, any suggestions to up it here would be nice though.
Power attack for 1:6 ratio (I think) on both a charge and the round after that.
And -34 to AC on a charge: -20[Heedless Charge] -2[rage] -4[frenzy] -4[reckless charge] -2[kyber] -2[reckless rage]
-10 to AC on subsequent rounds after the charge.
Attack, apart from BAB and STR = +4 on a charge, but no negatives, but all the benefit of our lovely Power Attack.
Now, what do people think of these ideas in general? Have I made any obvious mistakes? I’ll post a specific build at some later point (probably tomorrow) but if people want to have a stab at doing one themselves that’d be awesome. Any answers regarding my q’s on PA would be nice. Also, in general, what do people think of this?
[edit: formatting]
By the way, one time I saw a "Dragon Slayer" Prestige class, which would again douple the damage from a power Attack.
I can't remember where it was, though.
EDIT: Oh yeah, you're right... Forget the first part
As for only dealing non-lethal to my enemies. Yes and no. The obvious thing here is that undead, constructs, oozes etc can't be dealt non-lethal, so it'd be converted straight to lethal anyway (if I understand things correctly.) As for anyone else, well, hopefully they'll have taken so much non-lethal damage they'll be unconcious long enough that my frenzy will wear off and I can coup-de-grace them with a backup weapon.
Oh, and thanks for the reply to my question, figured that was it.
Think I've sorted the formatting of my original post now too, so hopefully should be slightly easier on the eye.
Hmm. I found the Dragon Slayer in the [i]Drconimicon[/i] (page 126) but couldn't find anything about increasing power attack damage. I'm sure there are other ways out there, but prestige classes tend to be fairly feat intensive to qualify for anyway, something my build won't have many of.
As for only dealing non-lethal to my enemies. Yes and no. The obvious thing here is that undead, constructs, oozes etc can't be dealt non-lethal, so it'd be converted straight to lethal anyway (if I understand things correctly.) As for anyone else, well, hopefully they'll have taken so much non-lethal damage they'll be unconcious long enough that my frenzy will wear off and I can coup-de-grace them with a backup weapon.
Oh, and thanks for the reply to my question, figured that was it.
Think I've sorted the formatting of my original post now too, so hopefully should be slightly easier on the eye.
Activated Merciful Weapons cannot damage Undead/Constructs/anything else immune to nonlethal damage. The weapon deals nonlethal damage, so it does nothing to those immune, just like a Fireball doesn't convert to untyped damage when the target is immune to Fire.
Seriously, any Frenzied Beserker that wants to be good is REQUIRED to grab Endurance and Steadfast Determination just so they have a decent chance at ending their frenzy.
Ok, so we add in Endurance and Steadfast Determination, probably dropping Khyber's Fury (my DMs don't much like Dragon stuff anyway) and maybe Reckless Charge (the extra to hit is probably negligable at this point.)
Ok, so with that my Con should be, assuming start of 16 plus the +6 we get fom reckless raging, plus the +2 to will from rage. This give us a will save of +8 before items. Add in a con booster, cloak of resistance. Ok, so it may not be guaranteed, but it's a good start.
I don't think the campaign I'm playing in will be particularly heavy in non-lethal immune critters anyway, mostly we'll be fighting humanoid races I think.
Any other ideas?
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (Magic Item Compendium 92) would give you +4 insight bonus to will save.
I propose this pregression for feats:
Water Orc +4STR +2CON -2INT -2WIS -2CHA
1. Barbarian [Feat: Intimidating rage] (Lion Totem)
2. Fighter [b. Feat: Power Attack]
3. Fighter [b. Feat: Cleave, Feat: Endurance]
4. Fighter
5. Fighter [b. Feat: Imp. Bullrush]
6. Fighter [Feat: Destructive Rage]
7. Fighter [b. Feat: Headlong Rush]
8. Fighter
9. Fighter [b. Feat: Shock Trooper, Feat: Steadfast Determination]
10. FB
11. FB
12. FB [Feat: Leap Attack]
13. FB
14. FB
15. FB [Feat: Reckless Rage]
16. FB
17. FB
18. FB [Feat: Extra Rage]
19. FB
20. Anything
Now, whilst this build should work from 1-20 it's best once you get to leap attack. I wanted to get it in earlier, but FB pre-reqs and Endurance & SD took up all my free non-fighter specific slots.
Now, at level 20.
STR 54: 18 base, +4 racial, +5 Tome, +5wish, +6 item and the +4 from rage, +10 greater frenzy, +2 reckless rage.
CON38: 16 base, +2 racial, +5 Tome, +5 wish, +6 item, +4 rage.
Will Save : 14 con, 3 fighter, 3 fb. This give an automatic pass at DC20 will save to end a frenzy.
Damage On a Charge power attack for maximum
>300 : (120 power attack + 33 STR + Weapon)x2 headlong rush, per attack.
5 Attacks with a full attack whilst frenzying, no penalty to hit.
If I've made any obvious errors here I'd welcome people to point them out.
What do you think. Oh and yeah, assuming no armour and a Dex of 10. AC is somewhere around -18.
If I'm not mistaken, you can only get +5 between Tomes and Wishes, since Tomes are based on the Wish/Miracle spell.
Yes, you may be right, they do both appear to be inherent bonuses, regardless, the loss of CON can be replaced with a Cloak of Resistance and the STR is kind of redundant with regards to damage because of the Power Attack multiplyers and Headlong Rush.
Depending on how your DM see's things and if you have a feat available you could pick up a Greathorn Hammer (MM4 pg 101) they do 1d12 (for medium characters) and have a 19-20x4 crit...you could take Improved Crit for a 17-20x4 critical hit (for the 3rd time this all depends on your DM)
Lol, I've done that. It won't make your DM cry but it will irritate him from time to time. Especially when you roll a 12 & deal 48 damage before you add the other variables.
Once its 30 a hit, ditto Improved Power Attack.
Once its 40 a hit, ditto Supreme Power Attack.
There's a ranger feat which increases Power Attack against favored enemies, and the Matsu Elite Guard from OA gets 2xStr with TH Weapons and eventually Supreme Power Attack. I think the Singh Rager does, too.
==Aelryinth
===Aelryinth
Edit: I reverse engineered the old build from scratch, with openings where there were feats not necessary for the build. Here it is, for your enjoyment
Crusher
Warforged
Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Frienzied Berserker 10
1. Take the CC Lion Totem substitution for Pounce, Adamantine Body as 1st feat
2. Power Attack
3. Improved Bull Rush, Cleave
4.
5. Intimidating Rage
6. Destructive Rage, Powerful Charge
7.
8.
9. Shock Trooper
10. Greater Powerful Charge
Honestly, your feat choices are open after this, one thing you can do that I did not choose to is to use the Armor Spikes granted with the Warforged Juggernaut levels to take Bloodspiked Charger. You won't be using a spiked shield, but you can still get twice your strength bonus to damage with your armor spikes on the charge, which you get a full attack on thanks to pounce. So, by 20th level you get a +14 to Strength and a +4 to Con while Raging/Frenzying, you get 5 attacks at the end of a charge due to Frenzy, you get a +5 bonus to your speed on that charge, plus an extra 2d6, plus the damage of your armor spikes and twice your strength if you also Bull Rush as part of that charge. I SO wanted to use Dungeoncrasher, but I needed every bonus feat from Fighter as you can well see. The way that my DM and I read Powerful Charge, we couldn't decide if it would get the extra 2d6 (Due to Greater Powerful Charge) on each attack in the charge with pounce, or just added on at the end of the charge. Either way its a decent amount of added damage. Have fun with this if you decide to use it, I know I did
Your last iterative with a full power attack would still be at -15 to hit. And note that the Shock Trooper AC thing is allowed only on a charge. It's a good tactic...if you kill the enemy.
===Aelryinth
Yup, that was the plan. Like you say though, it is pretty much all or nothing. I suppose it's a bit like a fighter based nova. If you don't kill the enemy, you're screwed, but in theory you really, really should.
Have fun with this if you decide to use it, I know I did
Heh. Cheers, it looks like a pretty fun build. I'll have a word with my GM and see what he thinks. I agree that powerful charge is a though one to call with pounce, I think you'd only get the extra damage once, but some may read it differently.
Note that if this build is so hugely and unstoppably powerful, everyone should be using a similar tactic among melee combatants. If the enemy wins initiative, they charge YOU...and someone in the party dies. Remember, such tactics are technically known for hundreds of years in the campaign. A bunch of idiots sitting back to take a charge from a greatsword wielder is playing stupid, and most soldiers and fighting men are anything but stupid sans combat. Disrupting charges would be very, very common...or simply makinig it nigh impossible to charge.
I'm always fond of the hold the line and steadfast boots combo myself...full power attacks automatically when charged for triple damage and an AoO to boot...maybe two!
===Aelryinth
It would matter only if enemy is immune to power attack damage (Elusive target) and even then it's not much.
Optimal weapon is not greatsword because most damage comes from power attack anyway so weapon base damage doesn't really matter. Only it need to be two handen weapon and because of AoO when using headlong rush reach weapon would be best. Maybe Guisarme or Glaive and Greatsword only as backup weapon with least crystal of returning.
If it is expected that build would face other chargers then than elusive target feat would be great, but sadly there is hardly enough feats to get it. So steadfast boots are good and maybe they can be combined (MiC) with Setting Sun Slippers(Tome of Battle) to get Counter Charge manouver and if free feats then stand still is good when using reach weapon and some way to get larger size.
Powerful charge in such a build isn't nearly as powerful as Leap Attack, you might want to consider a different feat there.
Note that if this build is so hugely and unstoppably powerful, everyone should be using a similar tactic among melee combatants. If the enemy wins initiative, they charge YOU...and someone in the party dies. Remember, such tactics are technically known for hundreds of years in the campaign. A bunch of idiots sitting back to take a charge from a greatsword wielder is playing stupid, and most soldiers and fighting men are anything but stupid sans combat. Disrupting charges would be very, very common...or simply makinig it nigh impossible to charge.
I'm always fond of the hold the line and steadfast boots combo myself...full power attacks automatically when charged for triple damage and an AoO to boot...maybe two!
===Aelryinth
I think powerfull charge feat chain is waste of feats to serious charger with power attack, leap attack, headlong rush and shock trooper. It is 8 points of damage per BAB point and even more with wrenzied berserker, so 2d6 more to every attack, well..... average 7 more damage hardly matters if without average damage per strike is 200+
It would matter only if enemy is immune to power attack damage (Elusive target) and even then it's not much.
Optimal weapon is not greatsword because most damage comes from power attack anyway so weapon base damage doesn't really matter. Only it need to be two handen weapon and because of AoO when using headlong rush reach weapon would be best. Maybe Guisarme or Glaive and Greatsword only as backup weapon with least crystal of returning.
If it is expected that build would face other chargers then than elusive target feat would be great, but sadly there is hardly enough feats to get it. So steadfast boots are good and maybe they can be combined (MiC) with Setting Sun Slippers(Tome of Battle) to get Counter Charge manouver and if free feats then stand still is good when using reach weapon and some way to get larger size.
The only reason Powerful Charge was being used in my build, is because Warforged Juggernaut gets it as a bonus feat.
I like the use of a reach weapon, don't know why I didn't think of it myself really, it would certainly do something to combating Headlong Rush's main drawback.
The initiative thing is a problem, I knew it would be from the begining, I strongly considered putting Mad Foam Rager (PHBII) into the build to counteract the possiblity of being shut down before I even had a chance to act, although it does require you to be in a rage, so Instantaneous Rage (CW) would probably be needed to really make sure you can use it. Neither of which I particularly have the feats space for.
In the end I don't think I'll use this for my upcoming game, it just seemed like an interesting thought experiment once I got to looking at how Shock Trooper and Power Attack synergised.