Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 farmergiles May 30, 2012 15:00:17	New campaign starting up using the Frostburn supplement. I don't know what the other players will want to play so I'm getting first dibs in while I can. At the moment I'm deciding between a Scout, a Druid or a Wizard (is it the norm that Sorcerors suck and Wizards are better?) I did consider Ranger but I'm not sure if it would be fun or varied.  The only restrictions so far are: Aside from Frostburn, keep the books to base and the complete's, but I'm sure Spell Compendium and Unearthed Arcana will be fine. Level is uncertain, but I reckon it will be between 5 and 10. We've been warned that the terrain/environment is going to be a big deal (i.e. DM will place more emphasis on survival) We have to choose to be either a native or foreigner, (I've gone native) for background purposes but we are NOT allowed to take any race from Frostburn (or any book in case) that is resistant to cold. So for e.g. a snow elf is fine, but a glacier dwarf is not as the latter has specific resistance. For survival I would assume that a druid is the ultimate choice, followed by Scout, followed by Wizard.  All the classes seem pretty varied in what they can do, but perhaps the Scout loses out a little on that front. Combat wise, all are pretty powerful depending on how you build them.  I would prefer to avoid multiclassing if possible, prestige however is fine.  If I know the other players well I know one will already go for munchkin character at either toughness or melee combat like you wouldn't believe. The other two will hopefully fill the niches after I've chosen my character. I'm not that desperate to be the party face until I have the Cha for it. Any initial ideas? Thanks!
#2 Maat_Mons May 30, 2012 17:01:36	Sorcerer only sucks if you choose bad spells known. Druid and wizard have the advantage of not locking you into your spell choices. The only things scout seems to offer for dealing with the environment are the survival and knowledge (nature) skills. You can get both of these as class skills for all classes by taking the apprentice (woodsman) feat (Dungeon Master's Guide II, p176). One thing that might be fun is to use the druid variant that gets favored enemy and use the favored environment variant. Is your DM fine with boots of the winterlands, everlasting rations (Magic Item Compendium), and everful mug (Magic Item Compendium)? Those could make getting by in the arctic notably easier.
#3 Krusk May 30, 2012 18:24:01	wizard is more powerful, and more forgiving for an inexperienced player. So yes, generally don't pick sorcerer unless you have a specific build you are working for. Based on environmental factors, I'd rule out scout. Magic just makes dealing with the environment a ton easier. Teleport means you never have to sleep in the cold. Endure elements means you are fine during your adventure. The various hut spells also work for camping. Druid and Wizard are two of the most powerful classes around. Scout is just barely average. You mention your group will optimize a lot, and if so, a scout would probably fall behind. That said, your DM might not enjoy the "I ignore the elements entirely" bit of a wizard or druid and you might fine them nerfed after a session or two. You know your DM, and if this is a possibility I'd go with scout just to avoid the hassle.
#4 deoxhydroxinate May 30, 2012 20:56:43	If your DM is throwing Frostburn at you, might as well throw a bit back that way - SNOWCASTING! On a serious note, magic defeats environmental effects quite easily.  Casting in general would do well.  Mundanes can do just fine too; a traveler's cloak and boots of the winterlands make the cold's effects laughable.
#5 farmergiles May 31, 2012 6:26:25	Well another player has his mind initially set on a Barbarian with dual wielding axes.  With a ranger , the party seems to be turning into a primal outdoor-sy lot anyway. Would be nice to fill the gaps which so far is Charisma, Intelligence, Magic (of any description) and Skill Monkey (with exception of what the ranger will take). So the Wizard does look very tempting, but my experience with Arcane magic characters is really limited as I tended to play skill monkeys and tanks in the past!
#6 farmergiles May 31, 2012 10:01:27	Hmm, maybe worth combining a Rogue with an Arcane class.........what are people's opinions of the prestige classes associated with Roguey Wizards? What about the Spellthief class from Complete Adventurer?
#7 deoxhydroxinate May 31, 2012 10:11:36	Hmm, maybe worth combining a Rogue with an Arcane class.........what are people's opinions of the prestige classes associated with Roguey Wizards? What about the Spellthief class from Complete Adventurer? If you're looking for a good PrC (or two) for a Rogue/Wizard combo - Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster are two solid choices.
#8 farmergiles May 31, 2012 11:21:46	Unless I'm missing something, Arcane Trickster seems incredibly underpowered compared to .......well everything! The pre-req's are also quite intensive requiring hefty multiclassing to acheive.  Just found out the starting level for us is 5 if that helps.
#9 StevenO May 31, 2012 12:03:58	Unless I'm missing something, Arcane Trickster seems incredibly underpowered compared to .......well everything! The pre-req's are also quite intensive requiring hefty multiclassing to acheive.  Just found out the starting level for us is 5 if that helps.   What are you defining as "heavy" multi-classing?  OH!  You may need to give up a few more spellcasting levels to get meet the non-spellcasting requirements of the class.  The "default" entry for AT is Rogue3/Wiz5 although using a different class for the other SA die can cut that although you still need the skills. I do think that Arcane Trickster definitely could have used an "update" when in was put into the 3.5 DMG instead of just pulling everything from T&B and dropping it, unchanged, into the DMG.  The class should have more skill points and should also have a better BAB and/or bigger HD. When looking for a Rogue/Arcane PrC there is also the Daggerspell Mage although I'm not so keen on that.  Although it gives up Sneak Attack from the Rogue and most Arcane damage the Beguiler is a single class Rogue/Arcanist class that is great for the skill monkey who wants some arcane casting ability.
#10 farmergiles May 31, 2012 12:14:21	Ah I ruled out Beguiler as I played one in the last 3.5 game I played. Good class but a bit situational.  The Spellthief looks like fun as I doubt we will have a rogue in the party and possibly not even a main Arcane caster (assuming I didn't go full Wizard Conjurer Specialist like I was tempted by). I'm trying to understand Master Spelltheif though, I might be being thick here, but the part where your caster levels stack. That doesn't mean you gain loads of spells a day even if you level up Spellthief rather than Wizard does it? My thing against Spellthief is that it takes forever for him to just gain basic spell casting, ok I know he can steal them but that is dependant on you fighting a lot of magic based enemies isn't it.........perhaps I'm underestimating just how often you come across eligible targets to steal effects,resistances and spells from though, we are playing Frostburn after all so I would expect that cold resistance would be a very common thing to steal............hmmmmmmmm, who's actually played one? Unseen Seer was tempting but I'm not a Divination fan, but feel free to prove me wrong! Like I said my knowledge of arcane classes is limited!
#11 deoxhydroxinate May 31, 2012 13:21:26	I'd suggest looking at the spells Hunter's Eye (a glorious divination spell) and Cloud of Knives, both found in the PHB II.  Usual tricks with Unseen Seer involve the use of those two spells.   A typical route would be Spelltheif / Wizard / Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster. Master Spelltheif is a fantastic feat - it allows Spellthief and levels to stack for the purposes of what level spells you can steal; i.e. a someone with 4 levels in Spellthief and 4 levels in Wizard would be treated as an 8th level Spellthief for the purposes of stealing spells.  The other thing it does is allow you to stack caster levels.  This doesn't grant new spells per day, but allows your effective caster level (effects that vary from duration, extra damage dice, etc) to still remain high. Essentially, you'll be casting Hunter's Eye (with a very good caster level) granting you sneak attack.  This bonus explicitly stacks with other sources of sneak attack.  Coupling that with Cloud of Knives for a free dagger thrown each round that sneak attack may be applied to (assume conditions are met).  You get a nice bevy of skills, decent hit points (for a wizard anyway), and you still cast high level arcane spells.
#12 Maat_Mons May 31, 2012 19:41:29	A classic way to make a skill monkey is to use cloistered cleric with the trickery and kobold domains. That gets you 6+int skill points per level, trapfinding, and bluff, disable device, disguise, hide, and search added to your class skill list. Personally, I'd skip the kobold domain for several reasons: I can't imagine traps being a big deal in a campaign that emphasizes surviving in the wild. It may be difficult to get your DM to allow you to select it without being a kobold. It's outside of your desired books. The cold domain (Spell Compendium) could be nice in this setting. I'm sure you'll run into plenty of cold subtype creature to command. The mind domain (Spell Compendium) is an easy thematic fit with the knowledge and trickery domains. The +2 bonus on bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive isn't bad for a skill monkey. The pact domain (Spell Compendium) is also a good thematic fit with the knowledge and trickery domains. It adds appraise, intimidate, and sense motive to your class skill list. You'd have bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive, which pretty thoroughly covers the social side of things.
#13 farmergiles Jun 01, 2012 7:02:44	Both cool ideas.  With the Spelltheif/Wiz/Seet/Trick route, what level split would you use? You mention casting high level spells, but as the progression on spell thief is really slow presumably you wouldn't level that up very far to begin with? At level 5 which we are starting at I don't imagine we'll end up levelling up to a huge degree given the infrequency of our gaming sessions.  The Cloistered Cleric could be another cool idea - though I'd fear my combat usefulness would be somewhat poor - saying that I could be wrong again as they still get the cleric spells don't they which generally involve some juicy combat stuff.
#14 farmergiles Jun 07, 2012 11:26:35	Out of interest, what experiences do others have with Frostburn? What characters have you created for the setting that have been truly sick to play? :-)
#15 deoxhydroxinate Jun 07, 2012 12:03:33	I wouldn't say sick exactly, but one of my more memorable classes from Frostburn was the Frostrager.  It's a barbarian / monk hybrid PrC and has some interesting combinations. A really nifty ability the Frostrager gets is the immunity to cold.  If you continue reading it also says you get a fire vulnerability (+50% damage).  One awesome trick is using the Sandstorm feat: Blazing Berserker.  This means you're a freezing cold wildman...on fire! Mechanically, it makes you immune to both fire and cold types. One of the routes I used was something like: Barbarian / Fist of the Forest / Deepwarden / Frostrager.  Wasn't the most optimized, but really fun.  And besides, dwarves have sweet beards.
#16 ObsidianConspiracy Jun 07, 2012 15:53:51	I had great fun with the Primeval, gonna play another soon. Because I wasn't using any major cheese (Ok WS ranger) I was allowed to turn into a smilodon.. we were told shapechanging was frostburn creatures only + animals you may find in the environment. As a result I was allowed the extra HD creature... it was a lot of fun.   A friend of mine played an ice based wizard, abused the hell out of snowcasting. I mean, cold subtype disintergrate was just enough to push the DC up to near lethal every time
#17 farmergiles Jun 09, 2012 6:29:58	I admit the Frost Mage prestige class looks cool. If i did a basic wizard I'd likely go for that, even though I'm only level 5 so my spells won't be awesome quite yet!  It highly looks likely that it's a 3 man team, so we've only got a ranger and a barbarian so far. Too many niche's for one character to fill. So far I'm looking at the three following options: Frost Mage - knowledge skills, arcana expert, spells, maybe a craft of some description. Spelltheif - I'm still not convinced that a basic spellthief is actually that good a class, even if I do the classic 1 level dip combined with wizard. But it would cover the skill monkey, arcana and trapfinding niches all in one. Bard - always a popular and useful class and would cover the skill monkey role and possibly the arcana role. I also quite like the theme of the Stormsinger class from Frostburn.
#18 farmergiles Jun 11, 2012 17:40:52	Right after some deliberation I'm going with a Knowledge Devotion Bard.  We're starting at Level 5, but all the Bard guides I find don't mention much about magic items. So assuming I've got 9000gp as the book says, what magic items are reccomended for a Bard? I also noticed my AC is pitiful. Even with a Mithril Shirt and 12 Dex it's still only 15. What's the best way to not get butchered in combat other than simply staying at range whenever possible?