I'm in the middle of making a 20th level character for a campaign. He'll most likely be a human in the Chaotic Good corner, and I'd like him to focus on shapeshifting, so Druid-something is mostly a given. However, I need some advice: Is a 20th-level pure Druid better for a shapeshifting-focused character, or would using Master of Many Forms (from CA) and/or Warshaper/something else be more suitable? Although this character will be a bit humorous and mischevious at times, I would like him to at least be able to keep up with his fellow party members (a psionic Shaper, a Warlock/Green Star Adept, and a Dwarven Defender) in terms of fighting and overall use in an epic campaign. I also note that while I'd like to focus more on shapeshifting, I don't mind spellcasting as well if I can still get the juiciness of practical and amusing shapeshifting.
Thanks in advance.
Look up the spell Shapechange
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm
21 caster level = Ioun Stone + Levels
Cost
24,500+30,000=54,500
21*10*2=7 hours of Shapechange per 9th level spell.
So for 4 9th level spells you can be shapechanged all day. A druid at level 20 should have 6 9th level spells.
Shapechange is far superior to anything a MoMF can do, and a druid still has 2 other 9th level spells as well as 8th level spells and 7th level spells and 6th level spells, etc.
But I think you're going to have more fun with the straight druid/MoMF/Warshaper. You get a bunch of immunities, nice unnamed stats bonus to whateve form you change into, the ability to change form at will with each greater wildshape use (thanks to level 5 warshaper ability multi-morph) and all the extraodinairy special qualities of the monstrous shape you assume. Of course you get some of that with shapechange and more form to assume, but shapechanging will be what you do rather than just a tool. It will be your identity. And depending on the interpretation of the rules, you'll have at the very least 11 greater wildshape/day, each lasting at least 5 hours. So yeah, you change all day, all the time
I say go with MoMF. Besides there are a few builds you can do that will make you strong beyond imagination (ok, not really beyond imagination, just pretty strong) at roughly level 12, while the druid will have to wait level 17 to get is shapechange.
Edit : I started my post while there was only the original one. So slow...
If you really want to use MoMF I'd suggest the wildshape ranger from Unearthed Arcana/SRD instead. More skill points, better BAB, and you don't lose a whole lot by going into MoMF unlike the druid.
Druid 19/ Cleric 1/
DMM:Persistent your shapechange.
lvl + Ioun Stone + Strand of Prayer Bead (Bead of Karma) = CL24
Bead of Karma: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads
human dusk 1 / druid 3 / a. hiero 10 / mt x w/ precocious & practiced caster
maybe mix in Natures warrior instead of mt..
but thats just me..
Better yet, be an archivist/contemplative1/sacred exorcist 1/hierophant1 with the animal domain and any form of spontaneous domain casting.(normal or epic feat).
IMHO druid loses to cleric in epic, hands down, until you house-rule the druid to get miracles.
Most people will say that since you'll get the spell shapechange as a druid, which covers all your needs in terms of changing shape, and you'll get fullspellcasting and other abilities as well, you should stick to the druid.
But I think you're going to have more fun with the straight druid/MoMF/Warshaper. You get a bunch of immunities, nice unnamed stats bonus to whateve form you change into, the ability to change form at will with each greater wildshape use (thanks to level 5 warshaper ability multi-morph) and all the extraodinairy special qualities of the monstrous shape you assume. Of course you get some of that with shapechange and more form to assume, but shapechanging will be what you do rather than just a tool. It will be your identity. And depending on the interpretation of the rules, you'll have at the very least 11 greater wildshape/day, each lasting at least 5 hours. So yeah, you change all day, all the time
I say go with MoMF. Besides there are a few builds you can do that will make you strong beyond imagination (ok, not really beyond imagination, just pretty strong) at roughly level 12, while the druid will have to wait level 17 to get is shapechange.
Edit : I started my post while there was only the original one. So slow...
You can change forms with shapechange as a free action avaliable once every round, sure with master of many form/warshaper you can also change forms each round but you must use an action. Shapechange is in every way superior to what you just listed.
The only other problem I foresee is the 25 HD cap for Shapechange. It won't be a problem at the start, but we hope to keep this campaign going for awhile, so there might come a point where I'm stuck turning into weaker monsters. Wild Shape lacks this limitation. (I should note that it has been house ruled for this campaign that prestige classes meant to augment abilities like Wild Shape- the Master of Many Forms and the Warshaper- do stack with the druid levels for determining the max HD of a monster that can be turned into.
The only other problem I foresee is the 25 HD cap for Shapechange. It won't be a problem at the start, but we hope to keep this campaign going for awhile, so there might come a point where I'm stuck turning into weaker monsters. Wild Shape lacks this limitation. (I should note that it has been house ruled for this campaign that prestige classes meant to augment abilities like Wild Shape- the Master of Many Forms and the Warshaper- do stack with the druid levels for determining the max HD of a monster that can be turned into.
First, if you go straight druid with the shapechange spell, you can always use wildshape later once you are past 25 levels. Remeber, if you dont like spells, it should not matter if you loss spell casting when you cast shapechange
(but you can always revert to your true form).Alternatively you could do both druid and MoMF. Druid 21/MoMF 4 with practiced spell caster for example will have some of the additional MoMF froms, full spell casting, and wildshape. This will loss out on bonus epic feats compared to a straight druid. You can progress the MoMF after that, or continue with druid if you want to push your caster level. You could always toss in a level of monk or ninja as well for wisdom to ac if a monk's belt does not give you that in your campaign.
Another option is to use this template if you want to be spell free.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a
Pick a deity that gives a +1 adjustment. The one LA you will get 12 levels of druid shapechanging with unlimited uses and duration. Change until your heart is content.
Minion +1/Ranger 5 (Unearthed arcania varient)/MoMF 10/Warshaper 4
This will give you that ability to turn into things with up to 27 HD if the DM lets you stack all the wildshape, plus you will get the warshaper bonuses. The ranger will provide endurance as a bonus feat for MoMF entry. Also there is an alternate class feature for rangers to have no spells at all and get more bonus feats (one at level 4). If there are a few supernatural abilities that interest you, savage species has the feat Assume supernatural ability. You can pick specific supernatural abilities that you get when shifting into a form that has one, such as breathweapon or eye beams. Pick ones that many different creatures have for the most use.
A full spell caster will be more powerful, especially with epic spell casting, but play what you are most comportable with.
You can change forms with shapechange as a free action avaliable once every round, sure with master of many form/warshaper you can also change forms each round but you must use an action. Shapechange is in every way superior to what you just listed.
Like I said, shapechange covers all your shape changing needs, and yes it is more versatile and grant you more abilities (you get the supernatural ones); you are absolutely right about shapechange. Except it can be dispelled and counterspelled, unlike the MoMF's greater wild shape. Dispel magic is not that hard a spell/ability to come by, but it could be hard to beat the CL. I also like the MoMF's flavor better, but that's just me, I agree that the druid is porbably a more optimal built in most situation.
Not that I know anyone that would ever let me actually play a planar shephard.
Also, Shapechange negates the user's own supernatural abilities- unless spells don't count as such-
They don't. You also seem to have a preconception of clerics as walking bandaids, which in reality pretty much died with 2nd edition. Cleric is arguably the strongest class in the game, at least in the top 3 in core.
I don't want to start a war, but shapechage states (unless there's a nerfratta):
(See here)
Spells are not Su abilities. If the DM says they are, then great. Have your druid Shapechange into a Solar, and cast cleric spells for free. I'm sure he'll change his mind, then.
Spells are not Su abilities. If the DM says they are, then great. Have your druid Shapechange into a Solar, and cast cleric spells for free. I'm sure he'll change his mind, then.
I know, I know, I missread your post, my apologies
Spells are not Su abilities. If the DM says they are, then great. Have your druid Shapechange into a Solar, and cast cleric spells for free. I'm sure he'll change his mind, then.
Ah, well, that's good to hear. I do know that Clerics are more than just healers, but I've never really tried a good Cleric for more than just fulfilling that role for a party. Are there any good Neutral-Chaotic Good Cleric builds you would recommend?
As for the task at hand, I think I'll just roll up a few of the suggested characters and see how they feel. I agree with Tordak in that I also enjoy the MoMF's feel, but I acknowledge the great advantage Shapechange has. (Getting rid of that dispelling weakness would be handy, though. Any good items for that?)
Elvish versatility Builds
Elf
Patron:Ehlonna
Cloistered Cleric 10/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 9/ Contemplative 1
Domains:
Knowledge(bonus)
Celerity.......... Haste, Improved Blink, Time Stop
Animal............... Shapechange
Travel .............. Dimension Door,Teleport,Fly,Greater Teleport
Magic ............... more nice things
Sun ................ extra more nice things
Gets 9th lvl Spells with access to several great Domains..... can be configured with any feat setup(DMM(Persistent or Quicken), Archery, Reserve focused, etc...)
but lately i have been using Knight of the Raven..... like this:
Ranger 2/ Cloistered Cleric(spontaneous Domain Casting Variant(Healing)) 4/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/ Knight of the Raven 4/ Radient Servant of Ehlonna 5/ Contemplative 1
BAB +13
CL 17th
Domains:
Knowledge
Healing
Celerity
Travel
Sun
Animal
Plant
similar to above, but can do better with Turn Undead
Elf
Patron:Ehlonna
Cloistered Cleric 10/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 9/ Contemplative 1
Domains:
Knowledge(bonus)
Celerity.......... Haste, Improved Blink, Time Stop
Animal............... Shapechange
Travel .............. Dimension Door,Teleport,Fly,Greater Teleport
Magic ............... more nice things
Sun ................ extra more nice things
Gets 9th lvl Spells with access to several great Domains..... can be configured with any feat setup(DMM(Persistent or Quicken), Archery, Reserve focused, etc...)
but lately i have been using Knight of the Raven..... like this:
Ranger 2/ Cloistered Cleric(spontaneous Domain Casting Variant(Healing)) 4/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/ Knight of the Raven 4/ Radient Servant of Ehlonna 5/ Contemplative 1
BAB +13
CL 17th
Domains:
Knowledge
Healing
Celerity
Travel
Sun
Animal
Plant
similar to above, but can do better with Turn Undead
(Getting rid of that dispelling weakness would be handy, though. Any good items for that?)
Ring of Counterspells (or 3). Contingency (or Contingencies if you can use the feat Craft Contingent Spell) for higher level dispel spells.
There's also, if you can get away with it, a weapon enhancement in PGTF called 'Spellblade' that can make you immune to any single spell for only +6000gp. Not only are you immune, you can redirect to any legal target as a free action.
try these:Elvish versatility Builds
Elf
Patron:Ehlonna
Cloistered Cleric 10/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 9/ Contemplative 1
Domains:
Knowledge(bonus)
Celerity.......... Haste, Improved Blink, Time Stop
Animal............... Shapechange
Travel .............. Dimension Door,Teleport,Fly,Greater Teleport
Magic ............... more nice things
Sun ................ extra more nice things
Gets 9th lvl Spells with access to several great Domains..... can be configured with any feat setup(DMM(Persistent or Quicken), Archery, Reserve focused, etc...)
but lately i have been using Knight of the Raven..... like this:
Ranger 2/ Cloistered Cleric(spontaneous Domain Casting Variant(Healing)) 4/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/ Knight of the Raven 4/ Radient Servant of Ehlonna 5/ Contemplative 1
BAB +13
CL 17th
Domains:
Knowledge
Healing
Celerity
Travel
Sun
Animal
Plant
similar to above, but can do better with Turn Undead
Similarly, a cleric could call himself a paladin, crusader, holy warrior, samurai, necromancer, or healer, but he had better be an excellent bluffer or able to prove his claims. If he's a necromancer, he has or will soon have a significant undead army. If he's a healer, he frequently casts healing spells and his heals are probably more potent than a typical cleric.
Similarly, an orc fighter/barbarian/wild shape ranger/bear warrior/master of many forms may consider himself a shaman attuned with bear spirits, even if he can't cast spells.
Spells are not Su abilities. If the DM says they are, then great. Have your druid Shapechange into a Solar, and cast cleric spells for free. I'm sure he'll change his mind, then.
shh, you'll summon JaronK
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14462217&postcount=2104
You can find it there. I took a few levels in things just to bump AC super high. You could easily trade FotF and Deepwarden for better levels, of say, I don't know, Planar Shepherd, which was banned in Epic Duels. Regardless, there are plenty of options, and I really don't think a finely tuned shaping build is terrible even if you sacrifice spellcasting. However, I will say that Druid 10/ PS 10 is probably your best bet for level 20.
Just some suggestions. That build should have lots of feats and such that you could use. I love Vow of Poverty and Epic Vow of Poverty.
:D
(BTW, those stats presented are in Dwarf form, obviously not the best you could get. Check out the 21 headed hydra post later on, and think about taking Stormguard Warrior from PHB2. Insane Damage output. The key to this build: Versatility. Know your monsters. All of them).