I am making a test character in my current campaign while my regular character is on vacation. There were two different character types I have always wanted to play, that I figured played great together, and so I meshed em. I always wanted to play a chain fighter, particularly when I saw some of the tripping aspects of it, and particularly when I saw how much range you can give them. Also, I always wanted to play a duskblade, particularly when I saw the Full Attack Arcane Channeling.
Anyway, I have 17 levels to work with and so I made him like this Human Duskblade 14 / Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 / Marshal 1. With Marshal I took the Art of War Aura.
For I have great rolls, and the DM was sort of wanting me to play a different weirder race than human for some story purpose, so he gave me the Half Fae Template for free (typically a +2 template. I didn't argue.) I also have Enlarge person on all the time (this guy works for my caster and he can permanent spells for free.), and the Jotunbrud Feat. So without (any other) magic I have Str: 20, Dex: 22, Con 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr: 18
For feats I took Knockdown (got Improved trip from barbarian class), Power Attack, Large and In Charge, EXP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Jotunbrud, and Monkeygrip. I also have two other feats through taking flaws (Alertness and Kick Them While They're Down).
This all seems like a pretty good combination to me. I do have one question and that is what an oversized reach weapon does for reach. Right now, I have counted that I have a 15' reach (since I am the equivelant of huge), which goes to threatening 30' with the spiked chain. Though I am using a Gargantuan Spiked Chain with Monkey Grip. I believe that has some effect of the reach of the weapon and I believe I saw it on the forums here, but I can't find where.
Another question I have is regarding if I should change things slightly. I saw another Duskblade thread that mentioned a few other Feats to take, which sounded good. *Knowledge Devotion, Arcane Strike, and Wraithstrike. (first off where can I find these) Do you think I might be served better, taking 2 levels in fighter instead of Wolf Totem Barbarian, and taking the Improved Trip Feat and then dropping Kick Them While They're Down, Large and In Charge, and Knockdown and taking those three* instead?
Maybe a combination? (Like keeping Knockdown, and not taking Arcane Strike?) Or any other suggestions?
For I have great rolls, and the DM was sort of wanting me to play a different weirder race than human for some story purpose, so he gave me the Half Fae Template for free (typically a +2 template. I didn't argue.) I also have Enlarge person on all the time
The half-fey template changes your type to Fey, and thus makes you an illegal target for Enlarge Person
This all seems like a pretty good combination to me. I do have one question and that is what an oversized reach weapon does for reach.
Weapon size does nothing for reach. It all depends on your own reach. A reach weapon simply doubles it.
Right now, I have counted that I have a 15' reach (since I am the equivelant of huge)
How did you get huge? You are an enlarged (see about the legality of that above) medium-sized fey (if that would work, you'd be large). Jotunbrud does not actually change your size, nor does it affect reach.
About the Jotunbrud Feat... Dammit, we were both under the impression that Powerful Build for the Goliath gave him extra reach. I looked again and it doesn't. We also thought that Jotunbrud was basically the same thing as the Powerful Build for Goliaths, which it still may be but neither gives the extra reach. Still, I know there was an article in here about extending reach to insane levels. Anyone know where that is?
As for Monkey Grip. If a larger sized reach weapon did provide extra reach (as I said I can't find the thread I saw that information in, and I thought that it included weapon size, could be wrong) then it would have been a great feat for this purpose, at least. Especially, if I used Wraith strike as then the penalty wouldn't matter much and the extra d6 would be awesome. With just the extra d6 though, its not nearly as good. Especially since at this point I can't take it to gargantuan size.
Human Duskblade 14
I am using a Gargantuan Spiked Chain
Not possible if you follow RAI.
Not possible if you follow RAW using Jot, Monkey Grip, Enlarge Person (since you are limited to Large weapons)
Not possible if you follow RAI.
Not possible if you follow RAW using Jot, Monkey Grip, Enlarge Person (since you are limited to Large weapons)
Actually, after rethinking about it I think I can. Monkey Grip allows you to use weapons one size category larger at the same difficulty as if they were your size with a -2 penalty. Jotunbrud (if the feat works like I think, I was told it does, but don't have the book for it)works like the powerful Build ability that the Goliath has. That allows the Goliath to act in many ways as a creature one size category larger, and it specifically states that they can use weapons one size category larger than they are at no penalty. (So if Jotunbrud does act like Powerful Build than they can too. So with Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip I can use a huge weapon. With Enlarge person on me, I am now large, but Jotunbrud make me act and use weapons as if I am huge (in most ways though not all) and Monkey Grip allows me to use weapons one size category larger with only a -2 penalty, hence Gargantuan
Actually, after rethinking about it I think I can. Monkey Grip allows you to use weapons one size category larger at the same difficulty as if they were your size with a -2 penalty. Jotunbrud (if the feat works like I think, I was told it does, but don't have the book for it)works like the powerful Build ability that the Goliath has. That allows the Goliath to act in many ways as a creature one size category larger, and it specifically states that they can use weapons one size category larger than they are at no penalty. (So if Jotunbrud does act like Powerful Build than they can too. So with Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip I can use a huge weapon. With Enlarge person on me, I am now large, but Jotunbrud make me act and use weapons as if I am huge (in most ways though not all) and Monkey Grip allows me to use weapons one size category larger with only a -2 penalty, hence Gargantuan
Jotunbrud has no implication on weapon size. It does not work (exactly) like Powerful Build.
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip do not stack (common mistake).
Anyways, no matter how you slice it, you can only get one size category larger than you actually are. In this case Huge, Large for real due to the DM approved enlarge person, and then one more from one of various sources.
Edit: Gah, that's like the 3rd time today somebody's ninja'd me on these boards.
Monkey Grip ... Jotunbrud ... works like the powerful Build ... With Enlarge person
Sigh....
Here is a summary of what the abilities you named say they do if you are Medium:
Monkey Grip "you may use Large Weapons"
Jotunbrud "you are considered Large for something"
Powerful Build "you may use Large Weapons"
Enlarge Person "your weapon becomes Large" and "doesn't stack with other size increasing thingies"
By the way, Powerful Build is Monkey Grip+Jotunbrud+some more.
All of these explicitly say they do not stack with each other by virtue of the wording.
To restate, all these abilities combine to allow a Medium to use a Large weapon and nothing larger.
Balanced
then you can use 2 weapon fighting
Jotunbrud has no implication on weapon size. It does not work (exactly) like Powerful Build.
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip do not stack (common mistake).
Looks at Races of Stone again. It says specifically that it stacks with the effects of powers, abilities and spells that affect size. It says nothing about not stacking with monkey grip.
Enlarge Person "your weapon becomes Large" and "doesn't stack with other size increasing thingies"
Wrong quote (again), and wrong conclusion.
The relevant passages are:
- "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.". The relevant difference is that RAW does not restrict the size to Large, as your "quote" implied.
- "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second casting of this spell to further increase the size of a humanoid that’s still under the effect of the first casting."
It seems that "size" here does not refer to weapon size, but the size of the target, but that is debatable. More significantly, and with any reading of "size", Enlarge Person stacks with both Monkey Grip or Powerful Build (but not both at the same time) with respect to weapon size, since both are not magical effects.
All of these explicitly say they do not stack with each other by virtue of the wording.
To restate, all these abilities combine to allow a Medium to use a Large weapon and nothing larger.
Both of these assertions are thus wrong. You can end up with a huge weapon if you have a medium creature with monkey grip and enlarge person.
Sigh....
Here is a summary of what the abilities you named say they do if you are Medium:
Monkey Grip "you may use Large Weapons"
Jotunbrud "you are considered Large for something"
Powerful Build "you may use Large Weapons"
Enlarge Person "your weapon becomes Large" and "doesn't stack with other size increasing thingies"
By the way, Powerful Build is Monkey Grip+Jotunbrud+some more.
All of these explicitly say they do not stack with each other by virtue of the wording.
To restate, all these abilities combine to allow a Medium to use a Large weapon and nothing larger.
You have the wording wrong, each that I have read (as I said, I don't have access to Jotunbrud) say one size category larger, and Powerful build specifically state it does stack.
The 4th lvl ability says you can extend the reach of a chain by 10ft.
So as a Med creature, if you take abberrant blood and inhuman reach, that gives you 5ft reach + 5ft reach = 10ft reach. I myself see inhuman erach increasing your base reach but that may vary on DM. You then wield your Spiked chain to get 20ft reach and use the 4th lvl tainted ability to increase your reach to 30ft.
Now if you were a large reature you would have 10ft+ 5ft inhuman reach = 15ft, bumped to 30 ft with the spiked chain and then 40ft with 4th lvl tainted.
So as a large creature you are running around with 40ft reach and you dont need to take the monkey grip feat as it is useless anyways.
Hope I helped
It seems that "size" here does not refer to weapon size, but the size of the target, but that is debatable. More significantly, and with any reading of "size", Enlarge Person stacks with both Monkey Grip or Powerful Build (but not both at the same time) with respect to weapon size, since both are not magical effects.
Both of these assertions are thus wrong. You can end up with a huge weapon if you have a medium creature with monkey grip and enlarge person.
Well, I acually not thinking of enlarging the weapon. I was going to carry two, one at a smaller size. I was going to have a much larger sized weapon made at a higher price, which is allowed. The reason for this is because I am going to have Enlarge person on permanently. (I have the second in case it gets dispelled, disjunctioned or for some other reason I lose Enlarge.)
As for Monkey Grip not stacking with Powerful Build, why is that. Several people have said it, but no one has said why. Neither description say they do not stack, and the way the rules works with things that do not stack, it doesn't say two things do not stack if neither is magical. It says that two different bonuses of the same type do not stack. Neither Powerful Build, or Monkey Grip has a specific type of effect attached to it. So, unless it is mentioned elsewhere what their effect type is, I would see both as untyped effects, and hence would be able to be stacked.
They are not a +1 size bonus, they are two instances of virtually the same ability.
And on a side note, so do the Strongarm Bracers, from the MIC. Buying the biggest benefit of the Goliath race (including having no penalty for using the larger weapon) for only a cool 6k gold :D
arms and equipment ... use a weapon one size category larger in one hand. Balanced
Weapon Sizes are different in 3.0 vs 3.5, so I wouldn't expect these to be worded as they are in 3.5 games.
Looks at Races of Stone again. It says specifically that it stacks with the effects of powers, abilities and spells that affect size. It says nothing about not stacking with monkey grip.
Sigh...... Yes, but it still doesn't stack with Monkey Grip due to the wording of the abilities.
Both of these assertions are thus wrong. You can end up with a huge weapon if you have a medium creature with monkey grip and enlarge person.
Granted. My wording was wrong and incorrect. But you still can't stack Enlarge Person with Monkey Grip, but not from the wording of Enlarge Person. Let me rephrase, when you become Enlarge Person'd your weapons are now Huge and as such no longer usable with PB or MG.
The physical stature of a Goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the goliath is treated as one size catagory larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be one size catagory larger when deternining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons one size catagory larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. THE BENEFITS OF THIS RACIAL TRAIT STACK WITH EFFECTS OF POWERS, ABILITIES, AND SPELLS THAT CHANGE THE SUBJECT'S SIZE CATAGORY. This includes Monkey Grip, Enlarge Person, and Weild Oversize Weapon. Wield Ovesize Weapon and Monkey Grip also stack with each other.
Enlarge Person:
Multiple MAGICAL affects that increase size do not stack.
So Powerful Build + Enlarge Person + Monkey Grip = Gargantuan weapon
+Wield Oversized Weapon = Colossal Weapon.
Monkey Grip
"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are."
You are Medium, so no matter what Monkey Grip allows use of a Large Weapon or no weapon.
Sigh.
Monkey Grip
"You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are."
You are Medium, so no matter what Monkey Grip allows use of a Large Weapon or no weapon.
And with Enlarge Person you are now large. Which means you can wield Huge Weapons. And with powerful Build you already are large. So Enlarge Person and you are Huge. Add one size catagory from Monkey Grip and you can wield Gargantuan Weapons. Wield Oversize Weapon makes all weapons seam as if it is one size catagory smaller for the purpose of wielding it. So Colossal goes down to Gargantuan and you can already weild that.
So as I said before, it all stacks.
THE BENEFITS OF THIS RACIAL TRAIT STACK WITH EFFECTS OF POWERS, ABILITIES, AND SPELLS THAT CHANGE THE SUBJECT'S SIZE CATAGORY.
Emphasis on changing the size category. Monkey Grip does not change the size category, it merely allows you to wield a weapon one category larger. Note that it doesn't change -the PC's- size category, just the size of the weapon that can be wielded.
The physical stature of a Goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger.
And besides, this whole argument is pointless because all that matters is what the DM says. If your DM says it works than it works. If he says that it doesn't than it doesn't.
A Colossal Character (through Wu Jen magic) with Powerful Build, wielding a Heavy Fullblade (Magic of Faerun and Arms and Equipment guide respectively) for a... Colossal++++ Weapon? There may be more effects to make it 'count as larger' assuming you rule that weapons can be larger than Colossal (which is questionable, as Colossal+ is not a real size category but an abstraction for dragon growth that does not increase reach or physical size)... this is particularly true if you can get it to count as a natural weapon somehow, as there are a host of size increases for natural weapons.
For the record, I think the biggest weapon you can wield legitimately would be...
A Colossal Character (through Wu Jen magic) with Powerful Build, wielding a Heavy Fullblade (Magic of Faerun and Arms and Equipment guide respectively) for a... Colossal++++ Weapon? There may be more effects to make it 'count as larger' assuming you rule that weapons can be larger than Colossal (which is questionable, as Colossal+ is not a real size category but an abstraction for dragon growth that does not increase reach or physical size)... this is particularly true if you can get it to count as a natural weapon somehow, as there are a host of size increases for natural weapons.
Colossal Character (Through a Permanencied WuJen) wielding a Colossal, Heavy, Mace with Greater Mighty Wallop cast upon the weapon.
Half Fey- Half Minotaur Duskblade 13/Psychic Warrior 3/Marshal 1
Buy Strongarm Bracers and drop Monkey Grip.
Take Practiced Manifester Feat.
Large Size, Wield a sizing Huge Spiked Chain.
When manifesting Expansion and augmenting it to two categories you become Garganuan (with reach weapon doubling gargantuan reach). The weapon itself becomes colossal
Jotunbrud [General]
You are descended from the giants who ruled the mountainspanning empire of Ostoria in ages past, and possess a truly impressive stature.
Prerequisites: Damaran or Illuskan human.
Regions: Damara, The North.
Benefit: Whenever you receive a modifier based on your size on an opposed roll (such as during grapple and bull rush attempts), you are treated as Large if that’s advantageous to you. You are also considered to be Large when determining whether a monster’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) affect you.
If you wish to determine your character’s height and weight randomly, your base height is X (male) or X (female), and your base weight is 210 lb. (male) or 170 lb. (female). Refer to Table 6–6 in the Player’s Handbook.
Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st-level character.
It does not mention weapons so does not allow you to use large weapons. Further it states that you are treated as large. It also does not say you are treated as one size larger thus if you become large you lose any benefit.
Remember.. This is not Powerful Build
Granted. My wording was wrong and incorrect. But you still can't stack Enlarge Person with Monkey Grip, but not from the wording of Enlarge Person. Let me rephrase, when you become Enlarge Person'd your weapons are now Huge and as such no longer usable with PB or MG.
I may give you Powerful Build and Monkey Grip for the wording. Doesn't matter, as I said before I am not using Powerful Build. Though there is nothing, wording or otherwise that wouldn't let you stack Monkeygrip with Enlarge Person. Enlarge Person doesn't stack with magical effects that alter your size. Monkey Grip is not a magical effect, and does not affect your size. It allows you to use weapons that are one size category larger than you. Nothing states they don't stack. They are two completely different trait types, they do not do the same thing, and the wording follows that they should be able to work together.
Anyway, to do what you want to do:
Half Fey- Half Minotaur Duskblade 13/Psychic Warrior 3/Marshal 1
Buy Strongarm Bracers and drop Monkey Grip.
Take Practiced Manifester Feat.
Large Size, Wield a sizing Huge Spiked Chain.
When manifesting Expansion and augmenting it to two categories you become Garganuan (with reach weapon doubling gargantuan reach). The weapon itself becomes colossal
Wow... I doubt my DM would let me switch my other half to minotaur now, and he has definitely ruled out psionics, so it won't work for me now, but that would definitely give me more of what I wanted.
I will post my final build tomorrow. It is a HUGELY Monty Hauled campaign, so with what I rolled and what the DM allowed, is pretty neat. And no, the DM didn't fudge much of the standard rules beyond what we have been discussing here. The big rule fudge besides the way stats are rolled and all the gear he gives (which isn't that great, he gives out some, and some is really good, but doesn't let you buy any with starting gold. Gold doesn't really matter anyway normally for me. This is an alt character for when my Wizard is too busy to join the group and my Wizard can make all the gold he wants for free. Hell he can make all the magic items he wants for free too, about the only thing he can't make for free are artifacts and a few silly things the DM thinks are too unbalancing, which is silly when you already allow a Wizard that can cast virtually any spell at will, with no XP or material component cost for anything, is the Chosen of Mystra and has both Silverfire AND Spellfire.) is that he gave my character a +2 racial template for free.
Jotunbrud wont work for weapons or if you Enlarge Person..
It does not mention weapons so does not allow you to use large weapons. Further it states that you are treated as large. It also does not say you are treated as one size larger thus if you become large you lose any benefit.
Remember.. This is not Powerful Build
OK, then that is the second rule fudge the DM is allowing. I didn't have the book with Jotunbrud, but the DM does have it, and he said it would work with the Permanent Enlarge Person... I suppose he could reason it as such. I started off at 1st level with Jotunbrud, which made me do certain things as if I were Large (grapple, trip, disarm, etc. NOT weapons) Then I got Enlarge Person permanently cast upon me, which made me large, and in doing so provided me with the benefits for increasing my size one category, even though I already have some of those benefits. I am not saying that is how those two would work together RAW, but that would be a way someone could interpret they work.
Wow... I doubt my DM would let me switch my other half to minotaur now, and he has definitely ruled out psionics, so it won't work for me now, but that would definitely give me more of what I wanted.
Half Minotaur is a template in dragon magazine (+1 LA), not a race. You can certainly play a half-fey half-minotaur human. Your backstory may be awkward though "Your Pixie Grandmother did WHAT!?" ;)
Changing size effectively without Psychic Warrior is a pain though. A battle cleric can just righteous might to grow 1 size. I'll brainstorm other ways later.
Here is the build that I have currently for him. I have included his stats, though many of his stats have been buffed with both tomes or magic items I am not going to list most of his equipment, since the DM randomly gave me out a bunch of crap instead of allowing me to buy it with gold. There are a few items he has though that I will list as they are relevant to the character and most of those items, though not all, were decided on that he would have, via discussion.
Boombel Trubbelmahker
Human/Half-Fae
Duskblade:14 / Wolf-Totem Barbarian:2 / Marshal:1
Has the following spells cast on him permanently; Enlarge Person, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Resistance (Anyone know if there is an updated Permanency Spells list that includes spells from any of the other books, or was it never added too)
Str: 31
Dex: 28
Con: 17
Int: 27
Wis: 12
Cha: 25
Speed: 35' running, 70' flight with good manueverability
Feats: Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, Improved Trip (from Wolf Totem Barbarian), Knockdown, Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, EXP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Jotunbrud, Large and In Charge. 2 Feats are from flaws, and one is from an alternate class feature.
Spells or class options: Marshal: Minor Aura (Art of War: +7 bonus on all disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts for all allies within 60 feet including himself.)
Duskblade Spells: 1st-Blade of Blood, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shocking Grasp, Swift Expeditious Retreat, True Strike.
2nd-Scorching Ray, Seeking Ray, Stretch Weapon, Touch of Idiocy
3rd-Dispelling Touch, Protection from Energy, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch
4th-Enervation, Toxic Weapon
Skills: The only really relevant skills, besides the casting spell skills like concentration, are the knowledge skills, since he can use them to gain up to a +5 on to hit and damage for virtuallly all creatures. He has 20 ranks in all related knowldege skills.
Equipment: +4 Anarchic Spiked Chain that is sizing, does +2d6 vs. Law, Is the Bane of both Fae, and Giants. Has the Whirlwind abitilty applied to it. And finally has a Rod of Metamagic: Empower built into the base of the weapon.
Armor of the Late Mountain Bear +5 Mithril Breastplate with 1 use/day of Bear's Endurance, + 2 on grappel checks 10 rnds per day, has Cold Resistance 30, Electrical Resistance 10, DR 5/Adamantium and is sizing. It also has a Survival pounch. Allows +10 Dex
Strongarm Bracers
Stone of Good Luck
Any comments of this? suggestions to streamline it some. He hasn't gotten into a fight yet, so a lot of things can still be changed on him.
Right now he has a Grapple Mod of 37, a Trip Mod of 30, threatens 30'
He is built to be great at battlefield control. This could argueably be done better with just going fighter, but the addition of Duskblade spells allows him to do more than just control the battlefield... It allows him to have some control of the combatants themselves, by draining levels, Constitution, Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Plus it also allows him to occassionally do massive damage with his attacks to everyone around him.
I already know about using Wraithstrike, and I really wanted to get that on my weapon. The DM didn't go for it. He saw how it could be abused, with this build specifically. I also know about Arcane Strike, and I opted not to take it, cause I didn't want to lose all my spells too quickly. Instead, I took a bunch of other spells, that would give me bonuses to hit.