My thought was to go with a 1/Fighter 1/ Crusader who's NG. Abandoning the bastard sword that most mele guys I play with waste feats on. And going with long sword and a reach weapon. DM is going to make it very difficult and thus is going to allow multi prestige classes to try and compensate for it. Any ideas? Does a crusader / Fighter gestalt combo have enough to hold it's own? Or do I have to cookie cutter Barbarian / Charge/ Spring attack or Monk/ Cleric with a vow of poverty. Just kinda looking for advice on this build and if I can get it to work after the first few levels.
* my book of 9 swords and divine champion books are currently in the mail hence my very limited lack of knowledge on the Crusader and my questions. Thanks in advance to anyone who might offer me some insight as I'm a little n00bish and have only been playing for about 6 months*
So here's my gig:
How much power do you want?
Why do you want it?
What is the FULL allowed book list?
What are other people playing?
What's the expected average damage per turn? 20? 250? More?
The general rule of thumb for gestalt is that you want to shore up any weaknesses in your base class. Match up your saves so you get as many as possible, pair poor base attack bonus with good, few skills with many, small hit die with large, etc... After that, look for class abilities that synergize well and fit your concept for the character. Another gestalt option that I like with Tome of Battle is actually Barbarian//Swordsage for instance.
Another thing to consider is whether you will have enough actions to use all of your myriad abilities. For that reason, pairing up niche abilities with things that are useful consistently is a good idea, or continous/passive abilities like stat bonuses, damage reduction, auras, etc... with those that use actions.
And taking 3 levels in fighter for the feats. then transitioning into a prestige class of some sort. All 3.5 books are allowed. No dragon mag.
Given that you don't have any arcane spellcasters in the group (unless the artificer goes with that), you might want to consider wizard as your secondary class. That will allow you to pick up some of the utility spells (darkvision, teleportation, flight, etc...) that are useful for any party and grab spells that will enhance your fighting abilities considerably. The "Bite of" series in the Spell Compendium is an excellent set of spells for increasing your combat abilities or you could use polymorph (if you want to go there) and there are numerous other personal spells that would be of use to you.
Unearthed Arcana has a "Martial Wizard" variant that will let you choose fighter feats with your Wizard bonus feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. If you choose that, you can pick up an extra feat at 1st and 5th (equivalent to 2 levels of fighter), and then transition into a prestige class that grants spellcasting advancement. (There are a large number available, so it depends on what flavor of abilities you would want if you go this route -- it sounds like you typically play wizards, so it may not be what you're looking for, though it seems like it is what the party needs. Used correctly, the wizard casting could definitely be a supplement to your melee combat abilities though rather than the character's focus.)
lol I was thinking something like.
1 Fighter / 1 Crusader
2 Fighter/ 2 Crusader
1 Kinght/ 3 crusader
2 Knight / 4 Crusader
3 Knight / 5 Crusader
4 Knight / 6 Crusader
5 Knight / 7 Crusader
6 Knight / 8 Crusader
7 Knight / 9 Crusader
8 Knight / 10 Crusader
And I can dual prestige so at around this point (or even sooner) look to transition to prestige. I'm thinking by going knight i can get a lot of defense and utility and wont have to be as obnoxious as a paladin.
I do play casters typically so trying to avoid the wizard route. Although I agree with you on the more casters comment. I dont expect to do the damage a barbarian with a full power attack/spring attack tree does. But still being an offensive threat would be real nice. I'm not sure what book they're in but would a warblade maybe be good to do instead of knight? (if it's in the book of 9 swords I wont know more about it for a few more days >< lol)
Crusader 20 // Bard 2/Marshal 1/Fighter 2/Prestige Class X/Prestige Class Y
With Song of the White Raven, you don't necessarily need to keep up your bard levels for inspire courage. If you're good though, you could qualify for Words of Creation which can make bardic music much more powerful.
Another option might be something simple, like Crusader 20//Rogue 20 (or some variant thereof). You have a lot of melee capable characters in your party, so getting flanking shouldn't be a problem and would definitely give you a nice damage supplement.
The thing is, that doubling up on the same strengths in your build means that you're losing out on one of the major reasons that gestalt is so powerful. And if your campaign is really going to be that tough, you don't want to be a step behind the other characters.
when I first thought that I wanted to play a crusader / something (doesn't have to be crusader, just kind of leaning that way ) I thought of a marshal level or 2 . So I think I like the aura utility they have. The bard might be kinda cool too. Does it stack with the warden aura? Like can I have my warden stuff "up" and also use bardic chants?
So Crusader 20// Fighter 2/ Marshal 2 / Prestige X
Using my fighter feats for power attack and cleave. I appreciate the input btw. And I am very much thinking that I might use this build. But have to figure out what prestige class to go.
5th level is the typical entry point for prestige classes, I would probably go with Bard 1/Fighter 2/Marshal 2 on the one side. That gets you 6 skill points at first level when it's most important and so long as you're only concerned with inspire courage, then you're in pretty good shape so long as you pick up Extra Music.
For the prestige class, you might want to look for one that grants you extra uses of bardic music at each level. I would also look into picking up Doomspeak-- a feat from Champions of Ruin (I believe). Your fellow players will love the bump that gives to their spell DCs.
great info. I'm now going with 20 (maybe less and prestige at some point) Crusader// 1 Bard/ 2 Fighter/ 2 Marshall / Prestige X Since we are starting at level 1 i'll have a lot of time to think what prestige classes to go.
I am definitely getting Doomspeak as soon as I meet the prereq's.
So for now he looks like Human 1/crusader//bard
18 str
12 dex
16 con
10 int
10 wis
18 cha
Going with longsword and heavy steel shield. I get masterwork banded mail for coming from Cormyr.
Feats are Power attack and cant decide between cleave and improved bull rush . I have max 4 ranks in perform and intimidate and should be able to get to 8 shortly to qualify for doomspeak.
That sound like a pretty solid start?
Side A Notes and Stub : This is your buff-zilla side. 9th level spells in the tapestry, mass persistification via Incantatrix, tons more spells viable thanks to SGoS. Legacy Champion might not fly, though, so might wanna check.
Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 3/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Legacy Champion 5
Side B Notes and Stub : The melee focused side. This can be any nasty combo you like from ToB
Going with longsword and heavy steel shield. I get masterwork banded mail for coming from Cormyr.
Feats are Power attack and cant decide between cleave and improved bull rush . I have max 4 ranks in perform and intimidate and should be able to get to 8 shortly to qualify for doomspeak.
That sound like a pretty solid start?
That should be good. I would actually consider replacing your Power Attack feat with Extra Bardic Music at 1st level. You will likely want it later anyway (particularly if you can retrain or don't go with a bardic prestige class) and it should let you use your inspire courage in every encounter right from the start. +1 attack and +1 damage from inspire courage (for everyone) will definitely beat out the -1 attack and +1 damage from power attack (just for you).
In fact, if you're going with a sword and board style, you might want to hold off on Power Attack entirely for awhile. Power Attack is mainly useful when you are wielding a weapon with two hands, so you can get a 2:1 bonus for your attack penalty. I would suggest waiting until 3rd level or so when you have more base attack bonus to charge it.
Hit it in the forehead. With an enormous two-handed sword.
So I think your right that a 2D6 Greatsword would probably help more than a +1 to my ac from a shield.
And I let 2 people tak me into the power attack and cleave feats. I personally wasnt a huge fan of it. So taking extra music i'm sure might be a little better for utility. Does anyone ever use a dire flail ? With the trip, the damage and the 2 attacks I thought it might be kind of nice. Also instead of power attack taking 2 weapon fighting (which I think covers the 2nd attack) for the flail. But i've never heard of anyone using them usually just great swords and bastard swords. So was wondering if any of you ever used it or know anyone use used a dire flail as their primary weapon.
Cleave can be very situational, but Power Attack is a terrific feat. Don't drop it. If you want to be able to trip, EWP spiked chain. It comes with reach! EWP Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer can be considered if you have a source of Greater Mighty Wallop.
Double weapons, generally, aren't worth it. The only exception I can think of are very specific Revenant Blade/Dervish builds with a double scimitar. But Dervishes are easily my favorite martial prc, so I might be biased.
Cleave can be very situational, but Power Attack is a terrific feat. Don't drop it. If you want to be able to trip, EWP spiked chain. It comes with reach! EWP Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer can be considered if you have a source of Greater Mighty Wallop.
If you can run a planehopper, you can make the other side a Revenant Blade Frenzied Berserker. And that one maneuver (hello, IHS) that lets you shrug off AMF works wonders for FB too :D
Ugh this is fun , but frustrating, just when i think i have it figured out. A better idea / way to go about it comes up. I really appreciate your guys input and help.
Ugh this is fun , but frustrating, just when i think i have it figured out. A better idea / way to go about it comes up. I really appreciate your guys input and help.
Even for us, the best of us, I think this is still how making a build goes. You learn to roll with the punches after a while, but I've lost builds that were for characters I really liked to rules changes or particular rulings. :: shrugs and smiles ::
First of all, see if your DM will let you power attack (better yet, 2 handed power attack) with the Air Blast from Otiax. If yes, bind Otiax, combine with Thicket of Blades. Touch Attack AoO's? Sure, why not. Get enlarged whenever possible.
For added fun, try Goliath (if LA only takes up half of the gestalt), and go with some Dungeoncrasher + Knockback with the Crusader || Binder. It won't be the unkillable monster of Frenzied Berserkage, but it will be playable and most sane DM's won't have a problem with it.