Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 avilonrayne Apr 25, 2008 22:41:43	So, I'm trying to make a wonderful versatile archer character for a gestalt game. I'm a late arrival to the game (by months if not a full year), so I'll be making a 16th level build. It needs to have room for epic. First requirement: skills! I want tons of skill points...might just have to go with high INT though. Survival and sneaky stuff is really what I'm after. I think a 4 base SP would be good enough Second requirement: all damage output must be at very long ranges...otherwise what's the point of a Greatbow? lol That's it for requirements... I know for a fact I'll be using the Targetteer variant of the Fighter. It gets no martial melee weapons, but gets two exotic melee weapons (Greatbow! yay for shared focus!). I need at least 12 levels of Targetteer (greater weapon spec). Obviously this means my other class must be a skill-monkey. My other option is to use Ranger for the skills and a couple free archery feats (but no ranged weapon mastery... sad day...) and then go with a nice mage class for a double dip into arcane archer (replacing mage levels, SP is more important for this build than CL). Things to do in order of importance: Versatility Full BAB SP! Tons of attacks/round (splitting on a speed greatbow with improved rapid shot?) Damage per shot Massive single attack damage I was also looking at any way to gain monk speed without dropping the power of the bow. High speed means i can keep the distance between myself and my target at whatever amount I want. Maybe a Targetteer/UA Druid? I'd need something to replace the animal companion and favored enemy with though... I don't like either of those (personal preference, so please don't tell me how good they are; I already know the statistical benefits). hmmm... So basically, Targetteer/UA Druid would be my best option if I can ditch those other things with variants. *digs through more forums* okay...finally... The Build Human (Elf if I don't need the extra SP)? Targetteer/UA Druid 1-16 1: Weapon Focus: Longbow (shared with greatbow), Point-Blank Shot 2: Precise Shot 3: Rapid Shot 4: Far Shot 6: Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot 8: Weapon Specialization: Longbow 9: Ranged Weapon Mastery: Piercing 10: Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow 12: Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow 14: Sharp-Shooting 15: Quick Draw 16: ((reserved in case of cranky DM...weapon prof: greatbow)) um... Woodland Archery if DM isn't cranky ^^;
#2 viktor_von_doom Apr 25, 2008 22:49:43	Why no Gr. Manyshot? All so a Scout/Ranger seems like more of what your looking for. For feat choice, give me a minute to think of something. This will help all so, though it doesn't say much about Gestalt.
#3 Endarrion Apr 25, 2008 22:49:50	No. Bad optimizer. I've never built an archer, but 12 levels of fighter definitely is NOT the way to go for ANYthing, let alone an archer. I'd assume that an archer is like a TWFer- bonus damage on the arrows. Anything with DR will make you a non-issue. Also, for that reason, keep LOTS of back up arrows (adamantine, cold iron, etc). Maybe a couple levels of ranger for your theme and free ranged weapon feats, then scout going into swift hunter? Pretty basic. Someone else will have something more for you. There's an archer handbook floating around as well. Check the "Handy Links for CO Work" sticky.
#4 doink1212 Apr 25, 2008 23:27:40	First Read these threads for some inspiration: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-525295 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831418 If you can stack these two builds, and your DM allow it, that would be funny. Lets see. Greatbow = 2d6, arrow demon = oversized weapons, + Giants Stance = ouch! weapon damage x2 for symmetrical archery. Splitting weapons would add on to that. There are certainly other ways to become an arrow demon if you DM doesnt allow psionics. (shapechange, etc) If wanted to make something interesting with this build I would definately consider the archivist or wizard for a second class. There are some really nasty arrow enhancing magics out there (prismatic arrow lol). My personal choice would be to stack INT syngeries with this build Another thread for you: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-762006
#5 avilonrayne Apr 25, 2008 23:49:47	Thanks for all the fun toys The reason I'm going solid Targetteer (Fighter) is to literally go overboard on the feats. I can't stand sneak attack or skirmish for archers (you have to be too close). Melees maybe (I love dual weilding 1 size up Bastard Swords with Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF...2d8 damage ftw :D ), but not with a distance-focused archer. Hmmm... I forgot about Zen Archery...on a UA Druid of Doomliness... watashibakadesu XD Human it is, for Zen Archery. I know there are plenty of options for a more powerful build, but the concept is equally important. He/she is a self reliant archer of nature. I don't want to bring in a Psionics class that much, and I've always been a fan of taking classes to 20. doink1212: greatbows are 1d10, at least in my CWar they are. Was that changed with errata? I usually don't check those lol Endarrion: I will have a bow that turns all arrows into force effects (Force from the MIC), thus negating every single bit of DR :D I also don't like the Archer's Handbooks out there because they all focus on Skirmish and Sneak Attack. Both of those are great, but I want range. Viktor_Von_Doom: I haven't seen Gr. Manyshot...I have all the books though, so could you give me a book and page please? I don't know how it would work with the concept though. I really want to emphasize staying a good distance away and filling baddies full of holes (and Manyshot is a 30 ft thing). This guy/gal is going to stay with the mages...or behind them.
#6 phoenix00 Apr 26, 2008 0:12:02	You need divine spellcasting and you need the war reserve feat. An extra 9 damage for a feat is too much to pass up. Knowledge Devotion is also nice for an archer. Grab Divine Agility to.
#7 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 0:17:18	You need divine spellcasting and you need the war reserve feat. An extra 9 damage for a feat is too much to pass up. Knowledge Devotion is also nice for an archer. Grab Divine Agility to. What books are these all in? >.> Also, it already is a divine caster... Druid. At least, I'm thinking that's a likely possibility. It's flavor It also has all the neat toys I want thanks to UA. I found some things to get rid of Favored Enemy and the Animal Companion, but it's a bit on the crunchy side, so I'm going to just have to wait for the DM to approve it or not.
#8 doink1212 Apr 26, 2008 0:18:03	Sorry my bad on the Greatbows, you are right. At the time I was looking at the ArrowDemon who uses 2 large sized composite longbows which are 2d6 each... But 2 Large Greatbows are 2d8 each, add in the warblade stance and the build i showed you fires 2 3d8 Greatbows / round + multiple shots for High BAB, and decent selection of feats.
#9 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 0:20:14	2 3d8 Greatbows... sounds tasty... tasty like human... but... how are the SPs on that build? And how mobile is it? I probably should have put mobility high on the list...but the more I look at it, the more I want speed.
#10 doink1212 Apr 26, 2008 2:35:22	Well if you go the shapechanger or transmuter you get access to the haste spell, and dimension door, im not sure what the psionics side gets as I don't play psionics. But if you have the ability to turn into an Arrow Demon I assure you, that you can move around pretty quick. Basic Mobility Spells Haste Time-stop Expeditious retreat Anything Teleportation Fun idea = Evard's Tentacles your opponents, and then shoot them with the angry bow. over and over again with a splitting great bow. Note on your build... if your going druid and you want mobility grab cheetah's speed from Complete Divine.
#11 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 3:03:05	Cheetah's Speed would be nice... if I hadn't already dropped Wild Shape for Monk AC and speed I've got more speed permanently :D I just can't shapeshift >.> But this Arrow Demon thing looks fun... *opens up the MM3* nifty. I think I'll spare the DM's head since this will be my first game with that group ^^; Psions don't get much in the way of SPs though...with human I was looking at 5+, but with psion that'd drop to 3+ What about a archer-ficer? I hear lots about people with something/artificers that do well. I've never looked at the ficer much though. Is it worth it? EDIT: new idea! *digs up magic item costs* ... I'd need a feat (Otherworldly), but I could make a ring of metamorphosis (or, rather, buy one) that's always on or has no limit to duration. 4*7*2000 would be the price...56,000 gp is all it'd take. Always having the arrow demon at will is just 56k... wow. A ring with infinite Expansion on it would give the big bows. 1*13*2000 = 26,000 gp...82k for the infinite bows of death at will.
#12 eldariel Apr 26, 2008 5:13:16	Check this out. There was a Gestalt Challenge on building Archers. I find my entries are at least fairly optimized; Eternal Blade/Erudite is fairly damn awesome with huge magic access and insane damage regardless of range along with the ability to ignore DR on an opponent as a Swift Action. Also, Eternal Blade is Epic-ready and Erudite is just few levels from. Oh, and it utilizes two abilities of Targetteer. The other entry is a Factotum/Swift Hunter, which might have a shorter effective range, but it's fairly versatile and has an insane damage potential and can use Inspiration to ignore DR.
#13 phoenix00 Apr 26, 2008 9:50:24	What books are these all in? >.> Also, it already is a divine caster... Druid. At least, I'm thinking that's a likely possibility. It's flavor It also has all the neat toys I want thanks to UA. I found some things to get rid of Favored Enemy and the Animal Companion, but it's a bit on the crunchy side, so I'm going to just have to wait for the DM to approve it or not. complete champion one gives you damage as long as you have a spell from the war domain spell in your reserve feat. the other gives you attack bonus and damage if you make a knowledge check against the monster the first time you see it as a free action.
#14 ksbsnowowl Apr 26, 2008 10:34:51	I haven't seen you list what books are available. It is from a 3.0 book, but the Peerless Archer PrC from Silver Marches is what you need. At 3rd level it gets Power Shot, which is basically power attack with a bow. Check out the Archer Build Thread linked in my sig. Depending on what books you have available, the Sniper Archer might be perfect for what you want. The Ranger spell Hunter's Mercy is your friend... as is a dip into duskblade or wizard for True Strike.
#15 doink1212 Apr 26, 2008 11:11:36	In case you are interested I made a thread devoted to Optimizing and Obtaining Symmetrical Archery. Could be fun. Hopefully Ill get some more posts in there. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15714060#post15714060
#16 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 12:54:08	3.5 books are all I have available. I saw mention of this "gatling bowgun" in various other places, but I can't find it on the forums. Where is it and what does it do?
#17 eldariel Apr 26, 2008 13:08:29	Gatling Bowgun is a ToB-adaptation of archery. Basically, it picks up the few maneuvers from ToB that work with archery (Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still for extra attacks, few defensive maneuvers for survival and finally Giant's Stance to deal damage as a Large creature without using Magic) and uses those to wreak havoc. The original thread was Warblade 20, but since the build has been honed to Eternal Blade 10 with a variety of classes before it (generally Warblade/Fighter combo of at least 6 levels total though to qualify for Ranged Weapon Mastery; I personally built a Warblade/Feat Rogue/Fighter/Cragtop Archer variant that eschews Eternal Blade for Poison Use (great with arrows as you can have them poisoned beforehand so you can make only poisoned attacks in combat; just make sure the poison you use is efficient against the target type and has decent saving throws), Dex to damage against Flat-footed and so on). It also has Woodland Archery to capitalize on its huge number of attacks, gaining +4 on all the further attacks for the turn for each miss, easily hitting ACs up to 100s towards the end of the volley. The Ultimate Archer Handbook has all the relevant links. Warblade 20 Archer should be there, there's a link to Artillery-type Archer thread and then there's the Eternal Blade on a later page.
#18 beldar_mithos Apr 26, 2008 13:59:29	As usual,insert the Cleric archer into the slot ftw most likely. I personally like the Fighter specializations when using a bow,people always tell me I'm insane but I generally just make the ranger look sad. But since this a gestalt game I can recoomend this Cleric 20//Soulknife 4/Soulbow 10/Soulknife X. Not the most optimized build around but you get Wis to damage with your arrows,and I like Autohypnosis. use the variant of Wild Talent to get that power point and then take psionic feats. The arrow is equal to a longbow but a greatbow isn't all it's made out to be a feat for a d10 instead of a d8? Not worth it imo,even if it does look cool. With this you get all of that cleric-y goodness,and you can do all of this at range in heavy armor,and you have a knife mental knife that you can manifest incase you somehow get into melee. Oh and where is this Fighter variant coming from? I've never heard of it.
#19 eldariel Apr 26, 2008 14:20:36	Fighter-variant that gets Dex to damage and bonus to Initiative is in Drow of the Underdark. A no-brainer, costing only Heavy Armor and Tower Shield (not like you'd use such anyways as an archer). Rogue gets Poison Use for Trapfinding from the same book. Martial Rogue, Fighter feats over Sneak Attack, is from Unearthed Arcana. Greatbow's good when you don't pay anything for it (Targetteer Fighter gets a free EWP on a ranged weapon) as it has higher damage and range. Being able to accurately shoot volleys 1000' away is fairly awesome. I generally take enough levels to qualify for Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery, since Ranged Weapon Mastery further increases you range along with damage and to hit bonuses on each attack, which gets big with enough attacks, along with Weapon Specialization (damage beyond 30' (a range that kinda misses the whole point of archery) is hard to come by for archers in 3.5; nothing grants Power Shot outside equipment, and Telling Blow requires Criticals, which sucks as it takes some stupid spells to make it work consistently). Beyond 4 levels, Fighter isn't really worth it (Weapon Supremacy isn't that good), but those 4 levels tend to be very good, especially if you can take Targetteer and the Drow ACF (increases your low range abilities without really costing anything; gives you Roguish ability to 'SA' for a lot of damage while maintaining the prime advantage of archery in humongous damage at extreme ranges).
#20 beldar_mithos Apr 26, 2008 15:37:28	Being able to accurately shoot volleys 1000' away is fairly awesome.QUOTE] How often is it that you are 1000ft away from anything in D&D? And now I have another reason to pick up the DotU,aside from the rediculous ability to dual-wield spike chains prestige class.
#21 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 15:45:56	I think I've figured it out now...it's a little item dependant, and it really doesn't make people's heads go 'splody until level 18, and it's also packed with variants, but it seems like it'll work pretty well. It's a solid no-multiclass build (I don't know how the DM works multiclassing with Gestalt, so it might be best to avoid it), so it's not the best, but I think it'll work. Human Targetteer Fighter / UA Spontaneous Druid+ Targetteer: lose all melee weapon profs, lose all shield profs, gain two exotic ranged weapon profs, gain buckler prof (so the Targetteer can't take that drow variant...no tower shield to give up). Qualifies for fighter feats like a normal fighter. UA Spontaneous Druid+: loses wild shape, loses armor profs, gains Monk AC and Speed, gains Ranger Favored Enemy, Track, and Swift Tracker, Casts divine spontaneous spells, limited spell knowledge but spontaneous casting and +1 spell/day at all levels, loses animal companion, gains Hide and Move silently as class skills and 6+INT SP/level Favored Enemy Variant: Favored Environment: bonus applies to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Knowledge in/about the chosen environment Feats: see first post lol (but add Zen Archery at level 1, human feat) End result: AC = 10 + dex + wis Speed = zomgwtf Attacks = 4/rnd base, +1 for speed bow, +1 for rapid shot, x2 for spliting bow At level 18: Shapechange Spell: shift into Arrow Demon and double attacks again (with two bows of course) Full BAB! Good Fort and Will, at least 19 dex for feats to help offset poor Ref save
#22 eldariel Apr 26, 2008 15:58:06	Being able to accurately shoot volleys 1000' away is fairly awesome. How often is it that you are 1000ft away from anything in D&D? And now I have another reason to pick up the DotU,aside from the rediculous ability to dual-wield spike chains prestige class. It's not often about being forced to do it, but rather giving yourself the chance to; you can use your extreme range to eliminate threats before they're even aware of your presence; they may also lack the means to detect you if you truly try (you can shoot like 5000' away if you really try). As long as you don't spend your entire life in dungeons (despite the game name, I've yet to see a game that is primarily dungeon-based; they're mostly involved when retrieving ancient artifacts).
#23 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 16:45:32	complete champion one gives you damage as long as you have a spell from the war domain spell in your reserve feat. the other gives you attack bonus and damage if you make a knowledge check against the monster the first time you see it as a free action. I don't seem to have complete champion... weird... oh well
#24 avilonrayne Apr 26, 2008 16:58:25	Oh and where is this Fighter variant coming from? I've never heard of it. It's from a Dragon issue. 310
#25 eldariel Apr 26, 2008 17:20:31	Ah, Targetteer, yea. You can find it at Crystalkeep.
#26 beldar_mithos Apr 26, 2008 20:03:19	It's from a Dragon issue. 310 Not a big fan of anything from Dragon. Grated they have some good stuff but it is generally hard to squeeze their stuff by DM's. Almost as hard as convincing a DM to let you apply the Saint template. :D