Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gothomog Aug 29, 2011 14:50:16	Hi This is my second post in this forum, but i've been reading it from some time. Soon I will start a new campaign in FR with gestalt PC. I want to create silent assasin like Ezio or Altair. We'll start with 4th lvl, 32 PB, standartd gold and ofcourse gestalt chars. I need help with mechanic. I appreciate all help.
#2 Maat_Mons Aug 29, 2011 16:14:48	Off the top of my head, beguiler (PHBII) // sneak attack fighter (UA) would work. Could you be more specific about your goals? I'm assuming you want good attack bonus and hit points and access to stealth skills. Is sneak attack something you want? How about spellcasting?
#3 ZhonLord Aug 29, 2011 17:21:34	A couple possible gestalt combinations off the top of my head (note - Rogue can easily be swapped out for Sneak Attack Fighter, as MM pointed out above): Rogue/Sorcerer: Stealth and sneak attacks combined with spontaneous casting for Disguise, Teleports, Invisibility, etc.  Only issue is a slight MAD. Rogue/Scout:  Sneak Attack + Skirmish for very strong damage, massive skill points and skill variety, AC bonus, and extra move speed.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 29, 2011 18:47:53	Virtually everything you'd need to handle about 90% of what Altaïr does can be handled via skills, some class feature boosting killing power, and some basic martial weapon proficiency, plus (perhaps) the Combat Expertise feat and related feats. Ezio's a bit different, mostly because he dual-wields the hidden blade, but even that may very well just be description (since he doesn't dual-wield anything else), and fundamentally the two characters are more or less interchangeable apart from their gear. You can accomplish all of this with a single-classed sneak attack fighter. Gestalting (standard, non sneak-attack) Fighter // Rogue, and chaining from Fighter into some sneak-attack full base attack class (Nightsong Enforcer, perhaps?) would be a great place to start. Sneak attack is pretty much all you'd need. Note that in D&D, sneak attack is best with multiple attacks. If you really, desperately need to kill the target in one hit, it's hard to beat Death Attack, but actually getting it without being Evil is kind of a pain. Still, Rogue // Fighter/Assassin would help here, as would (potentially) Invisible Blade. (PS: If you desperately want the hidden blade, look up the gnome quickrazor in Races of Stone. Some of Ezio's other tools are best drawn from the DMG's section on Renaissance weapons.)
#5 Maat_Mons Aug 29, 2011 19:30:23	If you desperately want the hidden blade, look up the gnome quickrazor in Races of Stone. I haven't played the games, but sleeve blade (Complete Scoundrel) seems a closer match and is a simple weapon. Unfortunately, as a hidden blade, it has a built-in -2 on attack rolls. I'm surprised there isn't a feat to remove that penalty from hidden blades.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 29, 2011 20:55:19	If you desperately want the hidden blade, look up the gnome quickrazor in Races of Stone. I haven't played the games, but sleeve blade (Complete Scoundrel) seems a closer match and is a simple weapon. Unfortunately, as a hidden blade, it has a built-in -2 on attack rolls. I'm surprised there isn't a feat to remove that penalty from hidden blades. I considered that, as it did seem to fit absolutely perfectly, but the sleeve blade also takes a move action to draw, which cripples its use as a surprise weapon (it essentially removes the "draw a weapon" slowdown inherent to the Sleight of Hand skill's concealed weapons use, but in such a way that even Quick Draw won't solve it. If Quick Draw did work with it, I'd definitely reconsider!). It also doesn't suggest how quickly the blade can be hidden again. The quickrazor does, and while it comes along with the same -2 penalty to continuous attacks, it lacks that penalty on surprise attacks, and comes with a fun bonus on feint attempts (which is why I suggested Invisible Blade). It also goes against the games, but since you haven't played them I didn't expect you to know that. The "hidden" part comes from it being small, instantly available, and instantly concealable after use (in other words, it lets people approach, kill, and leave without ever revealing themselves, even if they're in the middle of a crowd), not from it being hidden from a trained eye. In fact, if you know what to look for, it's bloody obvious who's using one. The hard part is knowing where to look, since the wielders are usually hidden, either out of sight or in a crowd. All that said, of course, Gothomog may not be interested in that weapon at all. Apart from the blade, pretty much everything either character does can be handled with rogue levels and some degree of fighter-type training, which should be dirt simple to do in Gestalt and prevents us from actually providing more detail without a clearer request.  It does, however, justify me linking to this wonderful article again. I'd have a hard time building either character higher than level 5 or so without grossly surpassing what they are seen doing (well, except for their infamous counterattacks, which D&D is not very well equipped to handle at low levels!). So at best, we have to get a character in the style of the originals, rather than replicating them, but without more advice we don't know what part of the style to approach.
#7 gothomog Aug 30, 2011 9:41:23	I would like to have PC similiar more to Ezio than Altair ( i love two hidden blades). Gnome quickrazor sound good option to it. ( Can i have them both ?) So which gestalt build you would recommend, 4 Rouge // 1 Fighter/Swordsage 3 ? and then progression to Invisible Blade ? RE I want sneak attack and stealth to quickly kill and run away.
#8 Maat_Mons Aug 30, 2011 16:58:25	So, you're looking to go a nonmagical rout? I think warblade would work better than swordsage. The disciplines swordsage gets that warblade doesn't are desert wind, setting sun, and shadow hand. As I said, I haven't played the game, but I assume conjuring fire, turning invisible and teleporting are not in either character's bag of tricks, so desert wind and shadow hand don't seem like good fits. I don't know if setting sun fits. Did the game feature a lot of throws and tumbling around? Invisible blade isn't very good since the errata limited the uncanny feint ability to once per round.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 30, 2011 19:39:10	Damn. I didn't know about the IB errata. Scratch that idea - unless you're fighting weak foes, the single attack you'll be getting from this really won't be all that effective. (Sadly, that also kiboshes most of the "assassination" style approaches unless you remember that hit points are cinematic as well as health.) ...Unless we look for ways to make that one hit really work in gestalt games. A simple thought is to employ Sapphire Nightmare Blade as your assassination move. It is the only strike in the entire ToB that will allow you to actually catch the target flat-footed on your own attack, and can thus trigger Sneak Attack at will without actually feinting first. (I've used this in theoretical builds based on Iaijutsu before, but it works just as well for sneak attack.) The games didn't feature many throws - just basic grabs, escapes, and counter-grabs, more as a tempo-changer than anything else. Really, the only "superhuman" things involved here are some impressive acrobatics and fall recoveries (most dramatically seen on leaps of faith, but even then it's implied that it's a hack*). Diamond Mind and Iron Heart would be appropriate for this sort of character, particularly the counters. Interestingly, there's substantial design overlap between several aspects of Setting Sun and Iron Heart, particularly if you look at their counters. (Some are loosely connected, like Baffling Defense and Wall of Blades (both let you use a thematically-appropriate ability to avoid an attack, and scale with level), and others are essentially identical, such as Manticore Parry and Scorpion Parry.)  That said, the combination of Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade is appealing, particularly with a dagger-weapon and the request to use two weapons needing high Dexterity. Interestingly, it's not hard to work that into the build, especially with Gestalt. =========== The most basic form I would use is this: Race: Human. Ability scores: Prioritize Dexterity, you'll be using it a lot. Intelligence must be at least 13, and you'll get benefits if it's higher. Charisma is helpful but not amazingly so. Strength, surprisingly, doesn't matter much. Constitution gets everything left over. 1: Rogue 1 // Warblade 1. Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise. Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap. [First level stance.] 2: Rogue 2 // Warblade 2. Steel Wind. 3: Rogue 3 // Warlbade 3. Martial Study (Cloak of Deception). Wall of Blades. 4: Rogue 4 // Ranger 1. Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human). 5: Rogue 5 // Ranger 2. Combat Style - Two-Weapon Fighting. 6: Fighter 1 // Warblade 4. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), Shadow Blade. Swap Wolf Fang Strike for [Extra Maneuver]. [Utility stance.] 7: Fighter 2 // Warblade 5. Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. [Extra Maneuver]. From here on out, go more Rogue // Warblade. Note: Strictly speaking the Urban Ranger is a better fit for these characters, but that's a variant. If you go Urban Ranger, definitely get a few ranks of Gather Information and Sense Motive, and look into picking an organization as your favored enemy. (If other variants are an option, Voice of the City is much better than wild empathy here. In fact, between Voice of the City, a few ranks in Sense Motive, Hunter's Sense (optional), and an item of Detect Hostile Intent, you've got everything Eagle Vision provides and far more.)  Note that Combat Expertise may be swapped for another feat if you want. It's the least essential part of the build, and the favored enemy choice is pure guesswork on my part. [First-Level Stance] - Punishing Stance if you want pure offense, Stance of Clarity if you think your defense is low, or Hunter's Sense if you want an out-of-combat utility ability. If you want White Raven Tactics, pick up either of the White Raven stances here first - Bolstering Voice is the better choice for you, to shore up your low Will save against a common irritant. [Extra Maneuver] - Good options include Claw at the Moon (high-profile assassination, works well as a surprise attack opener if you aren't in a position to full attack), Moment of Perfect Mind (your Will save will be pretty poor), and Iron Heart Surge (it really is an amazing ability, and the parallels to Altair's bloodline are obvious.). If you picked up a White Raven stance at level 1, you qualify for White Raven Tactics, which is a spectacular ability that lets you use your swift action to support your team. (In Assassin's Creed terminology, it's your assassin signals from Brotherhood.) [Utility Stance] - Since you have your lead offensive stance when this shows up, you pick a stance that will help you when you don't want to use Assassin's Stance, such as if you're fighting a sneak-attack-immune foe or if you're not in combat. Good ones include Absolute Steel, Leaping Dragon Stance, or Hunter's Sense. Skills: Max out Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, and Concentration. Your Intelligence needs to be 13+ for Combat Expertise, so you'll have a few extra skill points to distribute. Consider picking up a few trained-only skills, skill tricks, and a rank or two in Ride. Skill tricks (Complete Scoundrel): Most of the movement ones work perfectly. Remember there's a limit on how many you can know (one per two character levels) and that you can only learn one per level. For regular weapons, since you didn't need the hidden blade exactly, ranks in Sleight of Hand and Bluff to deal with tiny concealed weapons, perhaps even the sleeve blade, are more than enough, although your main weapon are paired daggers. If you really DO want the hidden blade, and these aren't good enough, swapping Combat Expertise for Exotic Weapon (Quickrazor) is still possible. (Note that one distinct advantage of the quickrazor is that you can draw two of them as a free action. Since the sleeve blade isn't using Draw A Weapon, you can't draw both of them with a move action.) Your stances will make those weapons your deadliest ones. If you need other weaponry, though, your maneuvers can be performed with anything. The only drawback to switching away from the daggers is that you'd lose the benefit of Shadow Blade, so by all means remember your other weaponry. Just make sure it's a finessable weapon - all of Ezio's normal weapons are finessable except his longsword and the two-handed weapon, but he sometimes uses a rapier or light mace instead, and these are finessable. Cloak of Deception is used to model blend in a way that's effective in D&D. Use it to slip between hiding points with relative ease, to literally fade from view if you need to lie low, and to act as a lifeline if you're spotted. It also combines reasonably well with other distractions or to cover an escape. Finally, you can use it to go invisible as you approach an enemy who's unlikely to move, then appear out of the background and unload a full attack on him. It's not a perfect story match, but D&D is a much higher-magic world than ours (even ours as presented in Assassins' Creed). Sudden Leap is used to move you into position with a swift action. For instance, you can be hidden, use a swift action to Jump to your target, and then still have a full-round action left to make a full attack against him. If he didn't detect you, you'll get sneak attack here. It's also used to allow you to move while your other actions are spoken for (such as if you're drawing weapons, Hiding, dropping a smokebomb, etc). The other maneuvers are very straightforward - Wolf Fang lets you get two sneak-attack strikes off at the low levels (and goes away when you get this option at higher levels), Steel Wind is double assassination, Sapphire Nightmare Blade is guaranteed sneak attack damage even in the middle of battle, Wall of Blades handles your defense. For equipment suggestions, keep your Dexterity high. The item of Detect Hostile Intent shouldn't be too expensive and will definitely help in more situations than I can count (especially if you took ranks in Sense Motive), although it can probably wait for higher levels. Offensively, you want your primary weapons enhanced as Swords of Subtlety in the DMG: the improved accuracy on sneak attacks is amazing. Defensively, just go for good light armor - the best is a mithral breastplate unless your Dexterity is insane - and keep your saving throws up, especially Will. Finally, do not neglect masterwork tools for your primary skills - they're the biggest bang-for-buck boosters in the game for skills, and they also fit with the theme (several of Altair's moves, in particular, are only able to be performed once he gets some of his gear back). Speaking of skills, I'd highly suggest reading the skills chapter a bit. Everything the base characters do can be easily accomplished routinely (or mostly routinely) by 4th-6th level characters, so you'll pretty soon be able to outperform your inspiration. * Show Aside for Maat: The basic premise of the games involves one character, Desmond, using a machine to relive the lives of his ancestors and unravel a conspiracy reaching to the modern day. The machine literally takes the form of a video game of sorts, with several little distortions from reality being hand-waved as part of the simulation. For instance, everyone speaks English because of a translation program (and spontaneous Italian for style in the sequel being written off as bugs in the program), and the protagonist remarks that he likes the subtitles. The convenient hay stacks and similar visual cues telling the player they're nearby are apparently added to the simulation by another character who's acting as a real-world assistant. And so on and so forth. Interesting narrative device and keeps the gameplay/story segregation under a respectable lampshade. But irrelevant here.