Gestalt Cleric/Fighter Archer - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Gestalt Cleric/Fighter Archer

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
talmor
Apr 14, 2008 13:12:26 Hey everyone, I was hoping you could help me out. I tried doing some forum searching, but I couldn't quite find what I was looking for. I'm playing in a Gestalt game as a Cleric/Fighter Archer and I need some help picking feats. Here's what I have so far:

Cleric Domain: Weapon Focus (long bow)
Human Zen Archery
Level 1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 1: Precise Shot
Fighter 2: Rapid Shot
Level 3: OPEN
Fighter 4: Weapon Spec (Long Bow)
Level 6: OPEN
Fighter 6: OPEN

As you see, I have 3 "open" slots. The level 3 one was originally for a meta-magic feat as I was going to go Divine Meta-Magic, but the DM banned it--he is allowing me to replace it though.

I'm not sure what to do with this character now. Which feats would you recommend? Stat wise, he has an 18 Wis, a 14 Str, a 13 Int, a 12 Con and Dex, and a 9 Cha. Are there any other good archery feats I can take? Most of them seem to require a high dex, and I'm using Zen Archery so I can use my Wis instead. Should I grab some melee fighting styles to balance my archery?

Any advice for prestige classes? I was planning on taking Order of the Bow Initiate, but are there any other good classes out there? I initially planned on dumping fighter as soon as I could, but I can't see any other good archery based fighter prestige classes. Should I go with a cleric one? I have had no love turning undead so far in this game, so I doubt I'll miss it if I take a full casting prestige class.

Oh, the books I have to work with are: Core, All Complete, Book of Exalted Deeds, and PHB II.

Thanks for all your help!
#2
eldariel
Apr 14, 2008 15:18:15 Are you sure you want to play straight Cleric/Fighter? At least take Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana) instead of normal Cleric since Fighter eclipses all the abilities normal Cleric has over Cloistered Cleric (or are you seriously not using any Unearthed Arcana?).

Either way, you'll want to pick up Extend Spell for sure. Also, wasting a Domain on Weapon Focus doesn't seem too smart when you have more than enough feats to work with. You could even go with Greatbow (Complete Warrior) over Longbow. Either way, pick up Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII), the only reason to pick up Weapon Focus-tree in the first place, and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) - Cloistered Cleric gives you all Knowledges as a class skill with the Knowledge-domain so you can pump them up.

I'd probably go some levels of Ranger instead of Fighter; Ranger allows you to bypass the Dexterity requirements of the Archery-feats. At least take two levels, since that gets you Rapid Shot (you can't legally pick that feat as a Fighter with only 12 Dex - you could circumvent that by switching your Int and Dex though. It doesn't have mechanical effect but it allows you to pick Rapid Shot legally) - you can use Monk's Belt for AC (or just two levels of Monk) soon enough, so you don't need Heavy Armor for long.

You may want to eventually go for Weapon Supremacy if you go straight Fighter. I'd also suggest trying a few levels of Warblade though, but ToB seems missing from your list of books.

PBS
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot (available through 11 levels of Ranger if you're willing to go that far)
Improved Rapid Shot
Woodland Archery (Races of the Wild, so not in your list; too bad)

and a lot of Snipery-related feats and a ton of Dragon Magazine-stuff.

Really, all the Archer Prestige Classes worth taking (no, 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate is not worth taking) are all 3.0 save for Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin). Justice is a decent option, but doesn't really have your flavour and he's an Int-based caster. Anyways, two of the 3.0 Archer PRCs haven't been updated to 3.5 and are therefore technically legal to play in 3.5. If you have the books, you can use the following with some changes (switch Sharpshooting to Improved Precise Shot on some level):
Peerless Archer (Silver Marches)
Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild)

Also, the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate (Sword and Fist) is very much worth taking if you can use it over the 3.5 (Complete Warrior) version. Since none of those books are in your list, if you don't have other books, just go with core classes as they're better than any bastardizations 3.5 offers.

On the other side, there're tons of classes that give you all the Cleric-abilities and then some. Most important options are Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine) and Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). Neither is incredibly powerful, but both are strictly stronger than the core Cleric, and the abilities aren't totally useless.

Short:
-You have most of the Archery-feats. Use Ranged Weapon Mastery later on if you take Fighter 4. Take Knowledge Devotion anyways.
-Take some Metamagic that helps your buffs. You'll eventually want Quicken Spell too.
-All good Archery PRCs save for Justice of Weald and Woe are in 3.0. However, they're still technically available for use, so go ahead with Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper and the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate, if possible. They're all worth taking with a variety of abilities, and easy to 3.5ize. None of those are on your available books though.
-Consider other base-classes. You can get good mileage out of at least Ranger and possibly some Monk too.
-Use Cloistered Cleric over normal Cleric if at all possible. You lose really nothing thanks to Fighter on the other side.
-Consider Greatbow over Longbow, better range and you seem to have the feats to burn to Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, using an exotic weapon would open up Exotic Weapon Master for few levels to get few abilities such as Close-Combat Shot and Ranged Disarm.
-Radiant Servant of Pelor and Sacred Exorcist are strictly better than Cleric. However, Cloistered Cleric has better skillpoints so if you can get it, I'd stick to it.
-Switch your Dex and Int! You lose mechanically nothing by lowering your Int by 1 (unless you intend on the Combat Expertise-chain, which you can't use with a bow anyways), and it qualifies you for your feats.
#3
logicninja
Apr 14, 2008 15:32:06 Play a halfling. That'll get you +2 DEX, which will let you actually TAKE 13-DEX-prereq feats like Rapid Shot. Dex boosting gloves will let you qualify for more dex-intensive archery feats.

For once, I'm going to recommend actually taking the WFocus/WSpec/Greater Focus/Greater Spec/Weapon Mastery/Weapon Supremacy chain. Adding up damage (and AB) for an archer is good.

Speaking of damage, take the Holy Warrior reserve feat in the Complete Champion. That'll add a lot.
Don't forget your spellcasting options. In fact, archery should just be a default--using spells properly will do a lot of things more easily than archery.
#4
talmor
Apr 14, 2008 16:58:25 Thanks for the help. I'll have to talk with my GM about the Cloistered Cleric option...it's one I've always liked, but I'm not sure if he allows them in the setting. As for the domains, he picked them out for me, based on my concept.

Also, I'll def. change my dex and int--though I think I might have mistranscribed them here. I'm pretty sure I was carefull about which feats I was eligible for.

Thanks again!
#5
brainpiercing
Apr 14, 2008 19:13:29 Duh, I was going to make a really cheesy build for you, but unfortunately your book selection is very tight, and your DM banned the good stuff. So now my build sucks. But I don't want to delete it altogether, so I changed it a bit. It's not absolutely bad now. At least it has some merit, IMHO.

Human Neutral Devotion Cleric 6 (Travel, War OR Trickery OR Animal (animal is a late bloomer, you might save it for Contemplative (later). It doesn't go well with War, flavour-wise, so you're better off with Trickery. Final build: Travel, Tricker + animal as Contemplative. Well, good luck on the flavour.))
Take Contemplate 1 later when you can, take Hierophant at lvl 18 and Divine Reach IF you get the Spell Compendium or any book which contains Owl's Insight (MoF I think)). Due to your book selection you are unfortunately stuck with suck in many places. (But thankfully, so is your DM - hopefully).

Fighter 2, Ranger1, Rogue 1 (take Cleric BAB), Ranger 1, Rogue 1

Possibly you can do better. It's just an idea.

Human 1: Zen Archery
Lvl 1: EWP(Greatbow)
Domain: WF (Greatbow) if you take War (but War sucks)
Fighter 1 bonus: Weapon Focus(Greatbow) OR Point Blank Shot OR Improved Initiative. WF should be retrained later (to Imp. Ini.) unless you really need it.
Fighter 2 bonus, Cleric 2: Point Blank shot if you don't have it, else Precise shot
Ranger 1 (Cleric 3): Precise Shot if you don't have it, else Extend Spell
Rogue 1: Sneak Attack
Ranger 2 (Combat Style: Ranged): Rapid shot.
Rogue 2 (Evasion): Far Shot or Quicken Spell for those very select buffs, OR Leadership. If you can take Leadership, take it above all else and get someone to stand in front of you with a tower shield and/or a reach tripping weapon and Hold the Line+Improved Trip. You want to take down those chargers. Optimise Str and Dex over BAB on your Cohort - since touch AC is low, but you ultimately need combat reflexes. Even LA is acceptable as long as he can drop a charger. He doesn't have to kill him, just drop him.

Abilities:
Wis 18, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 12, Str 12, Cha9.

Why the Rogue? Your Str. is low, your damage sucks. Con is still more important. If you take the right levels, you don't lose BAB and gain sneak attack and evasion. You can also cast invisibilty due to Trickery domain (unfortunately no Greater Invis). Get a weapon enchantment that boosts Sneak Attack, there should be one. Make tactics for sneak attacking as usually. You're not a pure fighter, you're a one-man army, don't be too proud to hide.
When you advance, make sure to keep full BAB at all times: Advance +1 BAB classes when the other class doesn't get a point of BAB. Remember: There are no good archery PrCs. Archery PrCs almost ultimately suck. You would be better of with Rogue/Master Thrower (for Palm Throw) than with most ranged PrCs, even though the range sucks. Other than that, take Fighter or Ranger levels and boost your damage with buffs.

Ultimately I don't get why you're playing gestalt and your DM banned DMM. It's not even that DMM is any good without Nightsticks. Gestalt without cheese is just like.... well, a cleric without DMM(Persist). Suckage extraordinaire.
I'm sure your DM will also throw one ambush at you after another, with just enough time in between so that your extended buffs go out. Still buy a Rod of Extend (lesser) ASAP. And keep a Melee weapon handy just in case.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 talmor Apr 14, 2008 13:12:26	Hey everyone, I was hoping you could help me out. I tried doing some forum searching, but I couldn't quite find what I was looking for. I'm playing in a Gestalt game as a Cleric/Fighter Archer and I need some help picking feats. Here's what I have so far: Cleric Domain: Weapon Focus (long bow) Human Zen Archery Level 1: Point Blank Shot Fighter 1: Precise Shot Fighter 2: Rapid Shot Level 3: OPEN Fighter 4: Weapon Spec (Long Bow) Level 6: OPEN Fighter 6: OPEN As you see, I have 3 "open" slots. The level 3 one was originally for a meta-magic feat as I was going to go Divine Meta-Magic, but the DM banned it--he is allowing me to replace it though. I'm not sure what to do with this character now. Which feats would you recommend? Stat wise, he has an 18 Wis, a 14 Str, a 13 Int, a 12 Con and Dex, and a 9 Cha. Are there any other good archery feats I can take? Most of them seem to require a high dex, and I'm using Zen Archery so I can use my Wis instead. Should I grab some melee fighting styles to balance my archery? Any advice for prestige classes? I was planning on taking Order of the Bow Initiate, but are there any other good classes out there? I initially planned on dumping fighter as soon as I could, but I can't see any other good archery based fighter prestige classes. Should I go with a cleric one? I have had no love turning undead so far in this game, so I doubt I'll miss it if I take a full casting prestige class. Oh, the books I have to work with are: Core, All Complete, Book of Exalted Deeds, and PHB II. Thanks for all your help!
#2 eldariel Apr 14, 2008 15:18:15	Are you sure you want to play straight Cleric/Fighter? At least take Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana) instead of normal Cleric since Fighter eclipses all the abilities normal Cleric has over Cloistered Cleric (or are you seriously not using any Unearthed Arcana?). Either way, you'll want to pick up Extend Spell for sure. Also, wasting a Domain on Weapon Focus doesn't seem too smart when you have more than enough feats to work with. You could even go with Greatbow (Complete Warrior) over Longbow. Either way, pick up Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHBII), the only reason to pick up Weapon Focus-tree in the first place, and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) - Cloistered Cleric gives you all Knowledges as a class skill with the Knowledge-domain so you can pump them up. I'd probably go some levels of Ranger instead of Fighter; Ranger allows you to bypass the Dexterity requirements of the Archery-feats. At least take two levels, since that gets you Rapid Shot (you can't legally pick that feat as a Fighter with only 12 Dex - you could circumvent that by switching your Int and Dex though. It doesn't have mechanical effect but it allows you to pick Rapid Shot legally) - you can use Monk's Belt for AC (or just two levels of Monk) soon enough, so you don't need Heavy Armor for long. You may want to eventually go for Weapon Supremacy if you go straight Fighter. I'd also suggest trying a few levels of Warblade though, but ToB seems missing from your list of books. PBS Rapid Shot Precise Shot Improved Precise Shot (available through 11 levels of Ranger if you're willing to go that far) Improved Rapid Shot Woodland Archery (Races of the Wild, so not in your list; too bad) and a lot of Snipery-related feats and a ton of Dragon Magazine-stuff. Really, all the Archer Prestige Classes worth taking (no, 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate is not worth taking) are all 3.0 save for Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin). Justice is a decent option, but doesn't really have your flavour and he's an Int-based caster. Anyways, two of the 3.0 Archer PRCs haven't been updated to 3.5 and are therefore technically legal to play in 3.5. If you have the books, you can use the following with some changes (switch Sharpshooting to Improved Precise Shot on some level): Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild) Also, the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate (Sword and Fist) is very much worth taking if you can use it over the 3.5 (Complete Warrior) version. Since none of those books are in your list, if you don't have other books, just go with core classes as they're better than any bastardizations 3.5 offers. On the other side, there're tons of classes that give you all the Cleric-abilities and then some. Most important options are Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine) and Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). Neither is incredibly powerful, but both are strictly stronger than the core Cleric, and the abilities aren't totally useless. Short: -You have most of the Archery-feats. Use Ranged Weapon Mastery later on if you take Fighter 4. Take Knowledge Devotion anyways. -Take some Metamagic that helps your buffs. You'll eventually want Quicken Spell too. -All good Archery PRCs save for Justice of Weald and Woe are in 3.0. However, they're still technically available for use, so go ahead with Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper and the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate, if possible. They're all worth taking with a variety of abilities, and easy to 3.5ize. None of those are on your available books though. -Consider other base-classes. You can get good mileage out of at least Ranger and possibly some Monk too. -Use Cloistered Cleric over normal Cleric if at all possible. You lose really nothing thanks to Fighter on the other side. -Consider Greatbow over Longbow, better range and you seem to have the feats to burn to Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Also, using an exotic weapon would open up Exotic Weapon Master for few levels to get few abilities such as Close-Combat Shot and Ranged Disarm. -Radiant Servant of Pelor and Sacred Exorcist are strictly better than Cleric. However, Cloistered Cleric has better skillpoints so if you can get it, I'd stick to it. -Switch your Dex and Int! You lose mechanically nothing by lowering your Int by 1 (unless you intend on the Combat Expertise-chain, which you can't use with a bow anyways), and it qualifies you for your feats.
#3 logicninja Apr 14, 2008 15:32:06	Play a halfling. That'll get you +2 DEX, which will let you actually TAKE 13-DEX-prereq feats like Rapid Shot. Dex boosting gloves will let you qualify for more dex-intensive archery feats. For once, I'm going to recommend actually taking the WFocus/WSpec/Greater Focus/Greater Spec/Weapon Mastery/Weapon Supremacy chain. Adding up damage (and AB) for an archer is good. Speaking of damage, take the Holy Warrior reserve feat in the Complete Champion. That'll add a lot. Don't forget your spellcasting options. In fact, archery should just be a default--using spells properly will do a lot of things more easily than archery.
#4 talmor Apr 14, 2008 16:58:25	Thanks for the help. I'll have to talk with my GM about the Cloistered Cleric option...it's one I've always liked, but I'm not sure if he allows them in the setting. As for the domains, he picked them out for me, based on my concept. Also, I'll def. change my dex and int--though I think I might have mistranscribed them here. I'm pretty sure I was carefull about which feats I was eligible for. Thanks again!
#5 brainpiercing Apr 14, 2008 19:13:29	Duh, I was going to make a really cheesy build for you, but unfortunately your book selection is very tight, and your DM banned the good stuff. So now my build sucks. But I don't want to delete it altogether, so I changed it a bit. It's not absolutely bad now. At least it has some merit, IMHO. Human Neutral Devotion Cleric 6 (Travel, War OR Trickery OR Animal (animal is a late bloomer, you might save it for Contemplative (later). It doesn't go well with War, flavour-wise, so you're better off with Trickery. Final build: Travel, Tricker + animal as Contemplative. Well, good luck on the flavour.)) Take Contemplate 1 later when you can, take Hierophant at lvl 18 and Divine Reach IF you get the Spell Compendium or any book which contains Owl's Insight (MoF I think)). Due to your book selection you are unfortunately stuck with suck in many places. (But thankfully, so is your DM - hopefully). Fighter 2, Ranger1, Rogue 1 (take Cleric BAB), Ranger 1, Rogue 1 Possibly you can do better. It's just an idea. Human 1: Zen Archery Lvl 1: EWP(Greatbow) Domain: WF (Greatbow) if you take War (but War sucks) Fighter 1 bonus: Weapon Focus(Greatbow) OR Point Blank Shot OR Improved Initiative. WF should be retrained later (to Imp. Ini.) unless you really need it. Fighter 2 bonus, Cleric 2: Point Blank shot if you don't have it, else Precise shot Ranger 1 (Cleric 3): Precise Shot if you don't have it, else Extend Spell Rogue 1: Sneak Attack Ranger 2 (Combat Style: Ranged): Rapid shot. Rogue 2 (Evasion): Far Shot or Quicken Spell for those very select buffs, OR Leadership. If you can take Leadership, take it above all else and get someone to stand in front of you with a tower shield and/or a reach tripping weapon and Hold the Line+Improved Trip. You want to take down those chargers. Optimise Str and Dex over BAB on your Cohort - since touch AC is low, but you ultimately need combat reflexes. Even LA is acceptable as long as he can drop a charger. He doesn't have to kill him, just drop him. Abilities: Wis 18, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 12, Str 12, Cha9. Why the Rogue? Your Str. is low, your damage sucks. Con is still more important. If you take the right levels, you don't lose BAB and gain sneak attack and evasion. You can also cast invisibilty due to Trickery domain (unfortunately no Greater Invis). Get a weapon enchantment that boosts Sneak Attack, there should be one. Make tactics for sneak attacking as usually. You're not a pure fighter, you're a one-man army, don't be too proud to hide. When you advance, make sure to keep full BAB at all times: Advance +1 BAB classes when the other class doesn't get a point of BAB. Remember: There are no good archery PrCs. Archery PrCs almost ultimately suck. You would be better of with Rogue/Master Thrower (for Palm Throw) than with most ranged PrCs, even though the range sucks. Other than that, take Fighter or Ranger levels and boost your damage with buffs. Ultimately I don't get why you're playing gestalt and your DM banned DMM. It's not even that DMM is any good without Nightsticks. Gestalt without cheese is just like.... well, a cleric without DMM(Persist). Suckage extraordinaire. I'm sure your DM will also throw one ambush at you after another, with just enough time in between so that your extended buffs go out. Still buy a Rod of Extend (lesser) ASAP. And keep a Melee weapon handy just in case.