Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 15, 2008 20:35:45	I'm DMing a campaign off and on this semester. I got some new guy who wants to join, who hasn't played since 3.0. To spare him the pain of catching up to all the new classes, rules and house rules I use in the campaign, I basically told him to just tell me what he wants the character to do and then I'll fill in the mechanics. I'm not terribly interested in a philosophical debate as to whether this kind of character creation method is ethical, good or bad. Campaign Parameters: Gestalt, level 10. 0 LA only races allowed, but one is allowed to "mutate" their race in some way, such that the power level of the mutations is approximately equivalent to +1 or 2 LA. For example: Whisper Gnome base race, has the following mutations: Owl wings (average flight, as a raptorian), Hide in Plain Sight (as Dark creature). Dwarf base race, extended reach (+5'), +10 move speed, +2 strength. Elan base race, 4 bonus feats and See in Darkness as mutations. Single, base classes only on either side of the gestalt build. No multiclassing. No prestige classes. 2 flaws allowed, all printed, non-setting specific WoTC material permissible + anything you can find on the www.d20SRD.org. 100% urban, futuristic-ish campaign setting, with plenty of magic. 32 point buy for abilities. Character Parameters (This is what the player wanted the character to have) General classification: Gish (wants magically enhanced attacks) Primary attack method: "Flurry of attacks". Wants to be able to land some hits every round, if at all possible. (Doesn't like the idea of putting all your eggs into one basket for a single, powerful attack). Stealthy: capable of surprising opponent and catching him unawares. Diplomatic: party face in some fashion. DM Opinion I want this character to meet his criterion, but I also want it to have a simple game-play. A finite list of available options, easy mechanics, and implementation are best for a player new to the rules set. This is what I've got so far: Race: Azurin base race. Mutations: Hide in Plain Sight, as Dark creature template. +10 move speed in light armor. +4 hide & move silently Flaw: Shaky Vulnerable Abilities Strength: 14 (base) +2 levels + 2 enh = 18 Dexterity: 14 (base) = 14 Constitution: 16 (base) +2 enh = 18 Intelligence: 14 (base) = 14 Wisdom: 8 (base) = 8 Charisma: 12 (base) +2 enh = 14 Build: Totemist 10 // Beguiler 10 Totemist//Beguiler: Leap of the Heavens, Combat Reflexes, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Wanderer's Diplomacy Totemist//Beguiler Totemist//Beguiler: Vexing Flanker Totemist//Beguiler Totemist//Beguiler Totemist//Beguiler: Arcane Strike Totemist//Beguiler Totemist//Beguiler Totemist//Beguiler: Adaptable Flanker Totemist//Beguiler Melds (up to 6 melds) Worg Pelt: +2 competence Hide (feet bound), MS base, +2 more per invested essentia, max +6 total, +5 foot speed increase up to a total of +15 with 2 essentia. Land Shark Boots (Totem Bound) [4 invested]: +12 competence jump check, claw attacks Worm Tail Belt: +2 nat armor, +1 more per invested essentia, max +4 total. Blink Shirt: Always handy to be able to teleport out of a grapple. Pegasus Cloak (shoulder bind): +2 enhancement to jump, constant feather fall, fly at 10 feet per invested essentia. Lamia Belt: +4 competence to hide and bluff, max +8 w/ 2 invested essentia. It's far from super optimal, I'm sure. I whipped this together in an hour. Anyways, here are some nifty tricks: 1. Lamia Belt + Glibness + Wanderer's Diplomacy: Poor-man's temporary diplomancer in a pinch (standard action diplomacy check at a +38 bluff bonus, not considering ranks or ability score) Since the effects are not permanent, its balanced in the campaign. I do not want bonafide diplomancers in this campaign for obvious balance reasons. While this is a high powered campaign, I do not want broken. Plus, this is a trick I've never seen mention on the boards (to be fair, I have been away for some time). 2. Land Shark Boots + Improved Invisibility + Vexing Flaner/Adaptable Flanker + Arcane Strike: Able to invest 4 of his 8 essentia into Land Shark boots is gives +4 enhancement. Total attack bonus in a flanking situation (which is easy to come by in the group and with adaptable flanker) is +23 [7 base + 4 enhancement + 4 flank + 4 arcane strike + 4 strength] on all four claw attacks. That's pretty decent for level 10, I dare say. Just trying to make sure that he hits at least once (as requested). As for the damage? Yea, lets look at that. 4x[1d6 + 4 enhancement + 4 strength +4d4] = 86 damage on average. A little low-ball, perhaps, given that it's not very often he can afford to sack a 4th level spell slot. In all likelihood, he'll be burning 2nd level spells, reducing the damage output to 68 on average. 3. HiPS + Lamia Belt + Max hide rank: Yes, he's stealthy and on demand. Shifting 2 essentia (he'll probably want to keep 4 in his boots at all times) into this meld gives + 8 Hide and Move Silently, for a total of +27 [2 dex + 13 ranks + 8 competence + 4 racial]. Problems I see: MAD Beguiler spell list blows for the most part. Limited Survivability outside of stealth. Contributes little else but damage in combat. Good things I see: Fits all the requested parameters Surprisingly good synergy between melds, functional purpose, and Beguiler class.
#2 andyjames Mar 15, 2008 20:46:01	I'd go Draconic (+1LA template, but can be his mutation) Human Duskblade//Cloistered Cleric myself. Gish with full BAB, lots of skill points, healing capability plus a lot of extras like DMM if need be. PrC options are fairly extensive, from Green Star Adept, Church Inquisitor, Dragon Disciple, Sacred Exorcist, etc. And then he channels a Harm as a full attack. Game, set and match. To reduce MAD, you can play Favoured Soul/Sacred Exorcist instead of Cloistered Cleric, but that will make you lose feats and skill points.
#3 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 15, 2008 21:18:02	I'd go Draconic (+1LA template, but can be his mutation) Human Duskblade//Cloistered Cleric myself. Clerics have a large spell list, and are thus pretty complex to play and optimize. Draconic doesn't really do much to help his stealth capabilities, which are what the player requested. Gish with full BAB, lots of skill points, healing capability plus a lot of extras like DMM if need be. PrC options are fairly extensive, from Green Star Adept, Church Inquisitor, Dragon Disciple, Sacred Exorcist, etc. Well, considering that I said PrCs are not allowed... the opportunity for cleric PrCs isn't really a huge benefit. As for the skill points, he gets a lot more this way (int-based caster with 6+int and a massive, rogue-like skill list). While a cloistered cleric gets 6+int skills, its skill list doesn't match (a priori) the desired skill set. I understand that domains can fix that problem, but I've little domain knowledge. Which domains grant bluff, hide, move silently, tumble, and jump? All of these skills are going to be pretty essential. And then he channels a Harm as a full attack. Game, set and match. Game, set, match maybe once or twice a day, next level. The encounters in this high powered campaign are not really conducive for 1 or 2 time per day abilities. To reduce MAD, you can play Favoured Soul/Sacred Exorcist instead of Cloistered Cleric, but that will make you lose feats and skill points. Aye, that'd work... at the cost of not fitting a lot of the parameters I set out to fulfill.
#4 nebo Mar 15, 2008 21:55:08	I don't think that beguiler really brings much to a gish build. The spell list is too limited to be of much use for enhancing attacks like you've said that the player wants. A simple sorcerer//ranger would give the attacks and skills that he wants.
#5 feintmaster Mar 15, 2008 22:15:33	Some Ideas: Wizard/ Ranger Cleric/ Swordsage (or Monk) Wizard (or Beguiler)/ Factotum Hexblade (Paladin or Crusader)/ Sorcerer Artificer/ Barbarian Hexblade/ Warlock
#6 archerpwr Mar 15, 2008 22:26:17	Warblade//Egoist? TWF+Stormguard+Knowledge devotion. Metamorphasis and hustle are great.
#7 keldar Mar 15, 2008 23:10:52	What about Duskblade/Spellthief? Less MAD as you only need 16 Int and 14 Cha to get the best spells for each, easily available with cheap magic items. Duskblade provides the Gish in a can with standard action power while Spellthief with Arcane Strike provide the multiple attack power (add TWF for more attacks). Feat Ideas: Arcane Strike, Master Spellthief, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (to reduce MAD)
#8 vilenatas Mar 15, 2008 23:37:55	Swashbuckler/wizard (use skill knowledge feat to get hide/move silently(or maybe just move silently + invisibility) Ranger/Cloistered Cleric Ranger/Favored Soul (Give up DMM, but should be easier to play) Paladin of Freedom or Slaughter/Bard Rge/Wiz ftr/bard Marshal/cloistered cleric trickery domain gets hide, move silently not sure Marshal/sorc(skill knowledge for stealth again, but you get + charisma on skill checks)
#9 tleilaxu_ghola Mar 16, 2008 0:05:55	Polymorph and its ilk are banned in the campaign. Sorry, I forgot to mention that. @ archerpwr Knowledge Devotion is an interesting idea and has a lot synergy with intelligence. Psionics is definitely a simpler mechanic, making it attractive. However, it doesn't have the stealth and diplomatic enabling abilities that the Beguiler brings to the table. Stormguard Warrior is a fantastic feat, but has many steep pre-reqs for a non-initiator. Getting it practically necessitates dipping warblade. Since dipping is not allowed, we have to go warblade on one side, which is fine... but it forces me to use the TWF mechanic, which is strictly inferior to the Totemist natural attacks at this level range. The no dip rule makes optimization a lot harder for me. Both warblade and totemist are powerful base classes in this level range. @Keldar TWF, done right, requires a lot of feats and abilities. If I were to use TWF, I'd go for a complete Dex-based SAD build, with Swordsage on one side to grab Shadow Blade & Weapon Finesse. It's worth considering, since dex-SAD builds mix well with stealth. Swordsage provides the requisite skills (on the stealth and combat end of things) and mixes well with other wisdom based casting classes, which coincidentally also have good synergy with melee -- particularly those with access to cleric spells. Unfortunately, delving down this path would require that social skills go by the wayside. Am I mistaken? Duskblade, on the whole, is a really poor class, in my opinion. Since we cannot dip it, I'm loth to use it. Recall, also, that one of the parameters was to focus on a multitude of attacks over single, powerful attacks (like channeling spells into a melee attack). @Nebo While I cannot deny that the Beguiler list is somewhat lacking in the melee department, I'd not go so far as to say it's wholly devoid of spells to service a gish. Here are the salient gish spells I see in the list: Defensive Expeditious Retreat Mage Armor Mirror image Blur & Displacement Invisibility & Greater Invisibility Freedom of Movement Offensive & Battlefield Control Solid fog phantom battle Glitterdust Rainbow Pattern Haste Slow Its far from a comprehensive list of all the available spells one might want, but it certainly includes a bunch of the ones I would want. Not to mention a great deal of utility spells which help fill the other requested roles. Does anyone have any, um, more specific and detailed suggestions? As much as I'd love to spend a lot of time to research this character as though it were my own, I've also got to prepare the encounters as well. There's only so much time I can spend on this stuff anymore. If you've got a handy link to a build that might loosely fit the parameters (doesn't need to be gestalt), lemme know.
#10 squashmonster Mar 16, 2008 0:38:08	Two options, both of which are highly capable but not exactly optimal: Swordsage//Favored Soul Swordsage maneuvers are split between Shadow Hand (stealthy) and Tiger Claw (flurry of attacks), with occasional smart dips into other schools (Burning Blade from Desert Wind, for example). Favored Soul spells are already picked out with good choices for a buffzilla. The fact that it forces you to have both wis and cha doesn't hurt as much as usual because Swordsage already uses wis and he wanted to be a face. Duskblade//Rogue Duskblades are really good, just not full caster good. Rogue handles the face and stealth portions. Additionally, he can sneak attack and channel at the same time to get an insane number of d6s. However, this doesn't flurry well.
#11 nebo Mar 16, 2008 0:49:59	While I cannot deny that the Beguiler list is somewhat lacking in the melee department, I'd not go so far as to say it's wholly devoid of spells to service a gish. I can agree with that, but I would rather use a class that has access to all of those spells and more. The list is a nice one, and it brings a lot to the character but it's nothing a sorcerer can't do with careful selection. Other than that, armoured mage is nice, but the skill points could come from the other side of the build.
#12 sinfire_titan Mar 16, 2008 1:00:58	Spellthief 10/Duskblade 10? Duskblade and Spellthief has abilities that complement each other nicely. Or have the other half be Wizard instead of Duskblade. Use Two-Weapon Fighting and Somatic Weaponry or a Double Weapon and just keep hitting the thing with Arcane Channeling until it dies. Start with Spellthief for a ton of Skill Points and be either Silverbrow or Human for shoring up your weaknesses. Key scores: Int, Con, Str/Dex. Get Shadow Blade (to reduce MAD) and use Short Swords to really churn out the fury on the 13th level Arcane Channeling. Cha can be dumped, as Spellthief spells are relatively weak and you won't get any you don't all ready have.
#13 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 24, 2008 17:54:36	bump
#14 kurashu Sep 24, 2008 21:55:18	How come no one has said Archivist//Duskblade? Int based all around, spells, skills, Dark Knowledge. Take TWF and Oversized TWF (though, power attack + greatsword would be better for this guy) and use twin bastard swords with twin harms tacked on after using bite of the were X (X being the highest version of the spell available). Somantic Weaponry, et cetera. Also, the duskblade channeling isn't limited by X/day, it's at will similar to the Ordained Champion ability.
#15 eldariel Sep 25, 2008 4:06:08	Wizard//Factotum, Artificer//Factotum, Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage, Archivist//Factotum and Ranger//Cloistered Cleric seem like the better options. Some more martial classes become open if Apprentice (DMGII) is added to the allowed feats-list as it would allow getting the key skills for other classes. For example, Wizard//Warblade or Artificer//Barbarian is fairly potent and with Apprentice, would have the whole slew of facery available. And yea, Psionics is a good option - Psion//Factotum or Psion//Warblade could do just fine, and you can go with Spells to Powers Erudite if you feel the character should have some Arcane abilities. Sorcerer//Crusader could also work. Ranger//Cloistered Cleric looks like perhaps the best bet here with a solid skill list, full BAB, access to Lion's Charge and the like, solid hiding abilities, DMM possibility, Diplomacy in class, etc. Trickery-domain would mean you'd have: -Bluff -Diplomacy -Hide -Move Silently -Tumble (trade Ride with Skilled City-Dweller through Cityscape Web Enhancement) -Jump -Sense Motive leaving only Intimidate and perhaps Gather Information to pick up, through e.g. Apprentice again. You could also trade Track for Trap Expert to be a Trapfinder. Even Spot and Listen would be in class. This is probably the way to go if looking for a full BAB version. As for the Domains you were looking for, Trickery gives you Bluff, Disguise and Hide, Kobold gives you Search and Disable Device (and Trapfinding), Dragon gives you Bluff and Intimidate, but that's it. So pick up Trickery-domain, Apprentice for Tumble + Move Silently (mentor having been some variety of a thief or something of the sort) and crossclass Jump (for the Duskblade//CC) would get it done. The only missing diplomatic skill would be Intimidate (you'd get Diplomacy and Bluff), which could likewise be crossclassed. The easiest way to go about it though is simply to make a Factotum (which is why I suggested it in every turn). Otherwise it's very hard to get a functional character with all those skills (Rogue is the other option, but Rogue is far worse for a Gish).