House rules: LA +1 doesn't count, LA +2 counts as +1, all other LA's as normal (so I'm definitely interested in any LA +1 templates or races that would be appropriate)
Since it's gestalt, if you encounter a class ability (say evasion) that you already have from another class, one of two things happens. If it has an "improved" version (again, like evasion), you get that. If, however, it doesn't stack with itself or have an improved version, you get a bonus feat instead.
Ninja's sudden strike counts as sneak attack, and replaces Ghost Sight with improved evasion
Books: Pretty much anything 3.5 goes
Setting: Custom (Based around a Raymond E. Feist setting if you any of you are familiar with the Krondor books)
Starting Level: 12
Alignment: Preferably CN or N, but I'll be buying a ring of mind-shielding and am not opposed to NE (especially, say, in the event of going Ur-Priest instead of cleric)
Deity: Lims-Kragma (kind of like Nerull, but N instead of NE), so I'd be looking at domains like death, maybe trickery
First of all, I should start out by admitting that I'm already screwing up by going ninja instead of rogue, especially in a CO board, but I just can't help myself, the flavor is too fun and I can't turn down the WIS synergy with AC, Ki, and divine spellcasting. That said, I'm looking to play the ninja levels straight through (12 to start), and either take cleric levels until I can qualify for a prestige class or take cleric straight through.
My biggest question is whether or not there is a full divine spellcasting progression PrC that also gets full sneak attack progression (basically, Arcane Trickster for clerics), or if it would be better to go Ninja12//Rogue5/Ur-Priest 7 or just Ninja//Cleric 12.
I should also note that I'm ruling out Druid (for campaign purposes), despite the tasty possibility of sneak attacking as an ethereal dire bear...
Any help would be much appreciated, since I've never actually played a strong spellcaster before.
But I get what you mean. Smack your DM for me, will ya?I would suggest that you look at the Phrenic template (in the SRD under Psionic creatures) and then use LA buy-off for the remaining LA. That template is one of the few +2 LA templates that is worth it.
+1 to the Phrenic template. That template is amazing. I gave it to a penguin once and OMG that thing is crazy, best improved familiar I ever saw.:D
In response to the OP however I would have to say try out Daggerspell Shaper, only trouble is you have no wildshaping. That can be fixed with a level of ranger and a level of abolisher. It's a little weird and the multi-classing would get a little complex I imagine but it may be doable with the right racial combo and very limited numbers of cleric levels. It's in complete adventurer, page 36. They get wildshaping, ability to cast while holding two daggers, can deliver touch spells using a dagger, 9/10 casting progression, and 3 sneak attack dice. If you can convince your DM to allow it Unseen Seer is also a good class here, and you could theoretically meet the requirements. If you minimize your levels in cleric, balance them to within 1 level of your ranger level, so probably 3/2, and can find a divine PrC to fit there, 1 level of Abolisher, Daggerspell Shaper for 10 and the rest with ShadowBane Stalker should get you fairly good sneak attack, assuming that you can either find a race that gets ninja favored or convince your DM to let you use rogue and ninja interchangeably for that purpose. I don't have the mental faculties to construct just how the progression would work right now, tomorrow I'll give it a shot if nobody else has yet. Abolisher is in Lords of Madness, Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage, and the other 2 are in Complete Adventurer. Let me know what you think of that and I'll see what I can come up with in the morning.
Also if you're looking for AC synergy,the simple Druid variant from Unearthed Arcana adds Wis to AC as a monk,fast movement,favored enemy. Yes I know you give up wildshape but for a 1 lvl dip it's amazing. Go human and use Ninja,Monk,Simple Druid variant and tack on the Wis to AC from the Saint template and bam...Wis 4x's to AC,that is of course if your DM allows them to stack,otherwise you still get the insight bonus from the template,which means you can wear armor with it :D
I recommend the Saint template from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's LA +2,so only LA +1 in your case and is very much worth buying off. Also,look into the LA +2 version of the Half-Celestial template from the same book,same stat boosts and such,but minus the spells you get based on your HD. But seriously,the Saint template is so much better.
Also if you're looking for AC synergy,the simple Druid variant from Unearthed Arcana adds Wis to AC as a monk,fast movement,favored enemy. Yes I know you give up wildshape but for a 1 lvl dip it's amazing. Go human and use Ninja,Monk,Simple Druid variant and tack on the Wis to AC from the Saint template and bam...Wis 4x's to AC,that is of course if your DM allows them to stack,otherwise you still get the insight bonus from the template,which means you can wear armor with it :D
Ninja and Monk do not stack. This is specifically written into the Ninja's entry. As the Druid ability is keyed off the Monk's one, that will also stop the Druid and the Ninja from stacking. The best you can get is the Saint's bonus and the Ninja's bonus stacking. That said, the Swordsage's Wis bonus should stack with the Ninja's, so if you are going to dip for extra AC, dip Swordsage.
If you go Ninja for 14 out of the first 15 on the one side, with the second level of a divine caster advancing PrC taken at 7th character level on that side and the rest being Ninja. "Divine PrC" below references a PrC that I didn't bother finding anything to fill that is used to make the spacing and the caster levels work out, it's 1st and 3rd levels are on the "Cleric" side of the build with it's 2nd level being on the Ninja side as mentioned above.
Ranger 1 (for the better skill points to multiply) - Weapon Focus(dagger)(Levels) - Track(Class)
Cleric 1(2)
Cleric 2(3) - Feat(Levels)
Ranger 2(4) - TWF
Cleric 3(5)
*Divine PrC* 1(6) - Feat(Levels)
Abolisher 1(7) - must have k(dungeon) 4, K(nature) 9
Daggerspell Shaper 1(8) - must have Concentration 8
Daggerspell Shaper 2(9) - Feat(Levels)
Daggerspell Shaper 3(10)
Shadowbane Stalker 1(11) - must have Gather Info 8, Search 4, Sense Motive 4
Daggerspell Shaper 4(12) - Feat(Levels)
Daggerspell Shaper 5(13)
Daggerspell Shaper 6(14)
Shadowbane Stalker 2(15) - Feat(Levels)
Shadowbane Stalker 3(16)
*Divine PrC* 3(17)
Daggerspell Shaper 7(18) - Feat(Levels)
Daggerspell Shaper 8(19)
Daggerspell Shaper 9(20)
That gives you, over 20 levels, 10d6 Sudden Strike, 4d6 Sneak Attack, Wild Shaping, and casting as a 17th level Cleric (meaning 9ths). You don't even need to have ninja as a favored class, a race with "Any" will work for this and many of them get a favored class. Long as you are a Lawful Good non-abberation you can qualify for all the classes and etc. The Dark Creature template from Tome of Magic is great for this, as long as you could be one of the rare ones who is Good, easy to justify being a PC and all. Only thing you lose from full ninja is the ability to spend Ki to use Ethereal jaunt, which you can cast so that isn't a real problem. You can take a race that gives a bonus feat at first and a +1 template or a straight +1 race or really anything if you can get a way to ignore the ninja levels for the purposes of your highest level base class.
Ninja and Monk do not stack. This is specifically written into the Ninja's entry. As the Druid ability is keyed off the Monk's one, that will also stop the Druid and the Ninja from stacking. The best you can get is the Saint's bonus and the Ninja's bonus stacking. That said, the Swordsage's Wis bonus should stack with the Ninja's, so if you are going to dip for extra AC, dip Swordsage.
Ah,I missed that in the Ninja,thanks. But the Druid is not listed in the classes entry,and while it is the same bonus,this is a case of the rules do not say that a Druid variant wouldn't stack,so it should. It is a same type bonus from a different source,so it's much like a Paladin and a Hexblade's Cha to saves stacking,or the Deepwarden and the FoTF. But I can also see how it could swing the other way around so it's really the DM's call. So let's not turn this guys thread into another Wis to AC stacking debate. So even with the Saint and the Swordsage you still get Wis x3 to AC,that is rediculous. Take Swordsage,add in the Shadow Blade feat to add Str,Dex,and Wis to damage..yesh..Wait and he has sudden strike,and access to DMM persist Divine Power..Here's what you're character should be saying during your game.
"Run,run my little chunks of XP run!"
he wants to be CN or jsut plain ol' N no monk unless its the chaos monk pretty much, and jsut take kung fu genius for int instead of wis stacking problems. On a side note other than the wisdom to AC wich is solved many other ways why ninja? Ki is not all that great, definatly not a stand alone reason to not go rogue instead.
Honestly, it's more for flavor/campaign purposes than anything else, but I do really like the Ghost step ability (especially as a swift action)-RAW, you stay invisible/ethereal (not as per the spell unless the errata has clarified this) for the entire round, so you get your full attack, each one against a flat-footed opponent that grants sudden strike (someone please let me know if I'm interpreting that incorrectly). Throw in the enduring Ki feat and that is good for two rounds, making you almost impossible to hit even after you attack. Throw in a five foot adjust every round just to keep your opponent guessing, and you're the most vexing melee fighter the dm has ever seen. Plus, since I'd be wearing light armor as a rogue anyway, I'd rather get my WIS to ac with an extra dodge bonus (seeing as how I'm maxing out WIS for my divine spellcaster levels anyway)
I recommend the Saint template from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's LA +2,so only LA +1 in your case and is very much worth buying off. Also,look into the LA +2 version of the Half-Celestial template from the same book,same stat boosts and such,but minus the spells you get based on your HD. But seriously,the Saint template is so much better.
This is simply beautiful, and while you would never normally catch me ever accepting a LA, I don't think I can pass up the saint template for the modified +1. I guess this means I have to be good now, but at least I can still be chaotic
Plus, I may get my dm to let me apply my craft (poisonmaking) skill to positoxins to make me even better against undead...sneak attack may not work, but fear my anti-undead poisons while you're being turned!
On that note, and I may simply be going insane here, I could have sworn that I've run across a feat, feat tree, weapon ability, or spell that allows your sneak attack to apply to undead and/or anything normally immune to sneak attack...am I just dreaming, or does such a thing exist?----Edit----Nevermind, found it...ghost strike enchantment from MIC...man, I pity anyone who ever took "ghost touch"----Edit----
Using that list I am also able to answer your other little question. No classes seem to exist that give full sneak attack progression and generic divine casting advancement. All the ones out there that give full sneak use a special casting type, basically pally casting but with a different list. the best you get with near full divine casting is 3SA/10lvl from daggerspell and shadowbane, 9/10 and 8/10 respectively, and black flame zealot which also gives 3/10SA but 5/10 divine. Those are the only ways I can think of to add Sneak Attack *and* advance divine spellcasting, can't give up those wonderful 9ths.
Sorry I feel stupid for not noticing the "wanted to be Chaotic". If you aren't opposed to Lawful I still have to say the best Cleric getting Sneak Attack I can find out there will be from what I posted based on all the sources that I can find in Surreal's List of Lists.
Using that list I am also able to answer your other little question. No classes seem to exist that give full sneak attack progression and generic divine casting advancement. All the ones out there that give full sneak use a special casting type, basically pally casting but with a different list. the best you get with near full divine casting is 3SA/10lvl from daggerspell and shadowbane, 9/10 and 8/10 respectively, and black flame zealot which also gives 3/10SA but 5/10 divine. Those are the only ways I can think of to add Sneak Attack *and* advance divine spellcasting, can't give up those wonderful 9ths.
No worries. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Even the ones I won't use for this character are still good things to know. I do really like the dagger and shadow classes in general, though, and hadn't really looked at them before you brought them up (daggershaper just makes me drool more at the thought of that ninja/druid). Black flame zealot was probably my next choice for PrC, but I think I'd rather just go straight Ninja//Cleric and play with the 'saint' template. I guess I'll miss the sneak attack progression from doubling up, but our dm just warned me last night of a strong likelihood of lots of undead, so I'm more interested in keeping those spells and turn undead now
Plus, who can argue with all good saves, decent hit die, good skills, and full cleric spell progression? I'd love to have full bab, but hey, what I can't make up for in buffs will be taken care of by the fact that most of my attacks will be while invisible/ethereal.On the other hand, you lose the power of Ur Priest.
You can try:
Saint
Cleric 19 // Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10
Recommended Options:
1. Sub Cloistered cleric for normal cleric for knowledge domain that you can swap for knowledge devotion and a LOT of extra skills that you will need. Your HD drops to a d6 though.
2. Sub a specialist wizard (conjurer with abrupt jaunt is always nice) for wizard. Your spell list is going to be diverse enough.
3. See if there is a way your DM will allow you to get rid of the LA using LA buyoff eventually, an extra level of contemplative or archmage never hurt.
Final Stats:
Full Cleric Casting
Full Wizard Casting
7d6 Sneak attack + Hunter's Eye from Unseen Seer adds 6d6 = 13d6 sneak attack.
I know that wizard casting was not what you asked for, but seriously, a wizard makes such a great ninja with stuff like improved/superior invisiblity and teleport spells/abrupt jaunt.
I think the flavor of a divine ninja is definitely still there.
edit: bah, church inquisitor needs to be lawful. screw that. I guess cleric 19 instead. edited above.
Not only the enchantment, there's a weapon augment crystal that does the same thing.:D
*drools at thought of getting sneak attack against undead and still having enough money for a keen enchantment*....
"That's right, my good DM, I did just get a critical hit against that lich with my keen kukri. What's that? Why do I have all these d6's?"
Saint hurts in gestalt since you're loosing on twice as many class features. It's probably worth it for +1 LA though due to the amazing bonuses it gives.
On the other hand, you lose the power of Ur Priest.
You can try:
Saint
Cleric 19 // Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10
Recommended Options:
1. Sub Cloistered cleric for normal cleric for knowledge domain that you can swap for knowledge devotion and a LOT of extra skills that you will need. Your HD drops to a d6 though.
2. Sub a specialist wizard (conjurer with abrupt jaunt is always nice) for wizard. Your spell list is going to be diverse enough.
3. See if there is a way your DM will allow you to get rid of the LA using LA buyoff eventually, an extra level of contemplative or archmage never hurt.
Final Stats:
Full Cleric Casting
Full Wizard Casting
7d6 Sneak attack + Hunter's Eye from Unseen Seer adds 6d6 = 13d6 sneak attack.
I know that wizard casting was not what you asked for, but seriously, a wizard makes such a great ninja with stuff like improved/superior invisiblity and teleport spells/abrupt jaunt.
I think the flavor of a divine ninja is definitely still there.
edit: bah, church inquisitor needs to be lawful. screw that. I guess cleric 19 instead. edited above.
Sorry for missing this! I think you actually posted about the same time I did, and I didn't catch it amidst my obsession with sneak attacking liches
I seriously like the build, and if I felt comfortable enough as a caster I would probably toss ninja under the bus for wizard/arcane trickster. Since this will be my first full caster since playing an ill-fated 4th level wizard in a pirate campaign, though, I think I'm going to try to ease into spellcasting
Still, if this campaign goes well, God help the next DM who lets me play gestalt!
What's that you say? Sneak attacking with an orb of electricity while turning six vampires in the same round?...at least I think orbs require a touch attack...
What's that you say? Sneak attacking with an orb of electricity while turning six vampires in the same round?...at least I think orbs require a touch attack...
Or orb of fire to also STUN them ^.^
yeah conjuration spells are nice.
There are plenty of wizard guides on this site that help a lot with being comfortable with arcane casters. Since you'd want to maximize wisdom for AC, you'd probably have slightly lower intelligence so you'd just cast buffs and ranged attack spells for sneak attacking (I do think wizards have much better spells for sneak attacking than clerics, like the orbs you mentioned). Hunter's eye -> Orbs/Disintegrate is probably all you really need offensively. Defensively, you have Haste, Alter Self/Polymorph, Fly, Invisibility/Impoved Invisibility, Limited Wish/Wish, Hearth of Earth, Assay Spell Resistance.
Hell low level spells like glitterdust and grease allow you to make tons of low level mooks sneakable.
But eh? I guess the important part is you having fun, so yeah, Ninja works too, even if it has less "I wish for win".
Saint hurts in gestalt since you're loosing on twice as many class features. It's probably worth it for +1 LA though due to the amazing bonuses it gives.
On the other hand, you lose the power of Ur Priest.
You can try:
Saint
Cleric 19 // Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10
Recommended Options:
1. Sub Cloistered cleric for normal cleric for knowledge domain that you can swap for knowledge devotion and a LOT of extra skills that you will need. Your HD drops to a d6 though.
2. Sub a specialist wizard (conjurer with abrupt jaunt is always nice) for wizard. Your spell list is going to be diverse enough.
3. See if there is a way your DM will allow you to get rid of the LA using LA buyoff eventually, an extra level of contemplative or archmage never hurt.
Final Stats:
Full Cleric Casting
Full Wizard Casting
7d6 Sneak attack + Hunter's Eye from Unseen Seer adds 6d6 = 13d6 sneak attack.
I know that wizard casting was not what you asked for, but seriously, a wizard makes such a great ninja with stuff like improved/superior invisiblity and teleport spells/abrupt jaunt.
I think the flavor of a divine ninja is definitely still there.
edit: bah, church inquisitor needs to be lawful. screw that. I guess cleric 19 instead. edited above.
I'm sorry,if I had a choice between Ur-Priest and the Saint template,I'd take LA +1 Saint anyday of the week. +2 to your Dc's,extra damage for melee to evil doers,Fast healing,Immune to elemental damage save fire and sonic,and heck you get fire resist 10. Tongues,this ability is underrated in my opinion,and is a huge boon for a spy type character. IE Ninja. Immune to 3rd lvl spells or lower,magic circle vs evil double strength,yeesh. Forget broken in 1/2,try broken in 1/8ths.
I'm sorry,if I had a choice between Ur-Priest and the Saint template,I'd take LA +1 Saint anyday of the week. +2 to your Dc's,extra damage for melee to evil doers,Fast healing,Immune to elemental damage save fire and sonic,and heck you get fire resist 10. Tongues,this ability is underrated in my opinion,and is a huge boon for a spy type character. IE Ninja. Immune to 3rd lvl spells or lower,magic circle vs evil double strength,yeesh. Forget broken in 1/2,try broken in 1/8ths.
I did chose to go with Saint in my build. That should speak for itself.
I just wanted to point out the opportunity cost.
Ur Priest does allow for some fun triple-quadruple threats and doesn't lose a level. But yes, the saint is better by a significant margin in this case.
if you usethe LA buy-off from UA saint is a no-brainer, it just rocks too much. Provided you can meet the reqs which our CN friend does not
I've actually decided to go CG so I can use the saint, but I'd totally forgotten about LA-buy off (which is ironic, since I've been trying to convince a member of the party in another campaign to do it to buy off his planetouched LA).
At this point, my main concern is feat selection. Even starting at 12th level, a ninja cleric can only look forward to just five, six if you count the flaw I took (vulnerable, since my AC was already 42), and I'm having a hard time deciding between concentrating on turning (like quicken and empower) and then on feats that improve my ninja side (telling blow, weapon finesse is a must with a dex mod of +8, enduring ki). Any suggestions on feat selection (I'm afraid I have to decline the use of the dmm persist cheese...it just feels a little too broken) that keep a character like this balanced?