Gestalt Psion Constructor Help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 marrithl2 Mar 06, 2013 23:32:20	Hey everyone, I'm trying to come up with a good Gestalt Psion Constructor build. My original idea was to make a gnome illusionist/summoner by doing a beguiler/shadow mage/shadowcaster on one side with psion/Constructor/Ectopic Adept on the other. I liked the INT synergy and the immense versatility of spellcasting... being a gnome is always fun too! Of course when I tried to put these things together for my gestalt character, there was just too much being crammed in and I couldn't find a way to make it all work out. I'm wondering if anyone can give me a build which does something similar to my original concept. If not, could you propose a good build based more on the Constructor/astral construct shaper theme? (classes, prc's, feats, whatever you think is helpful) Thanks in advance, Some links: ========== 3.5 Constructor: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b 3.0 Constructor: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...<- seems better but I guess it was changed cause it's too good
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 07, 2013 0:38:54	Hey everyone, I'm trying to come up with a good Gestalt Psion Constructor build. My original idea was to make a gnome illusionist/summoner by doing a beguiler/shadow mage/shadowcaster on one side with psion/Constructor/Ectopic Adept on the other. I liked the INT synergy and the immense versatility of spellcasting... being a gnome is always fun too! Of course when I tried to put these things together for my gestalt character, there was just too much being crammed in and I couldn't find a way to make it all work out. I'm wondering if anyone can give me a build which does something similar to my original concept. If not, could you propose a good build based more on the Constructor/astral construct shaper theme? (classes, prc's, feats, whatever you think is helpful) Thanks in advance, What books? What starting level? What's the rest of your team? We kind of need to know these things. A few observations from a longtime shaper/constructor player. 1) Do not take Ectopic Adept. Its sole advantage is that it can ignore the stupid nerf to astral construct introduced in the same book (i.e. only one construct at a time). There's no reason to do that nerf (Bruce Cordell, when cornered, said it was to prevent wilders from breaking the game by summoning powerful constructs early - note that the nerf does nothing of the sort!), and thus no reason for ectopic adept. 2) Given how you're creating constructs and looking for Int synergy, have you considered straight-up Artificer on the other side? It'll be stronger overall (because the arty's insane), but even an artificer that's holding back and concentrating on infusions instead of item creation can find a niche with this approach. Look at how many infusions operate on constructs. 3) The Mind's Eye offered expanded class features at one point. For the shaper, it was Personal Construct. Take this. In its conservative interpretation, it lets you Quicken Astral Construct (something normally impossible) at no increased power point cost (another major benefit). Under its generous interpretation, it lets you manifest your preferred construct for free as well. Under either interpretation, it lets you toss out a construct on the first round of combat, when normally you'd be looking at spending that round (and the entire time before your next turn) finishing off your first manifestation. This benefit is amazing with wise construct choices. Without this ability, constructors are painfully slow to get moving without serious action acceleration. 3.5 Constructor: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b 3.0 Constructor: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...<- seems="" better="" but="" i="" guess="" it="" was="" changed="" cause="" s="" too="" good="" quote="" br="" class="mbQuoteSpacer"> No, no, NO. It was changed because 3e psionics was a dramatically different system from 3.5, and the old constructor makes no sense in that light. 3e psionics was simultaneously overpowered and underpowered, and an absolute pain to work with. (Example: You're a shaper (int-based). You want to manifest a psychometabolism power, such as the thematically appropriate ectoplasmic form? Hope you've got a high Strength. Yes, Strength.) They introduced a variant feat that let you give up a class feature, and everybody took it to the point where it was considered more essential to its class than Natural Spell or Power Attack. And the less said about psionic combat, the better. I'll let AntiDjinn explain what was up with that: I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability: DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic." Player: "OK. How does it work now?" DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell." Player: "A spell???? What level?" DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...." Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?" DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless." Player: "The undead will get defense modes?" DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots." Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?" DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free." Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!" DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful." Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?" DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway." Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands. DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced." Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?" DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!" Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"
#3 marrithl2 Mar 07, 2013 12:57:03	Thanks Tempest! First off, more details for my campaign:
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 08, 2013 12:36:19	All you need to make a good constructor is Boost Construct, really (although Overchannel would not go amiss; look into gear or Vigor to absorb its damage because you'll probably be expending focus on Personal Construct). Both psion and artificer get bonus feats to cover most of their expected roles, so you won't be too strapped. Since psions aren't terribly gear-dependent and artificers can build whatever gear you want anyway (Torc of Power Preservation comes to mind), you should be fine. I suggested Artificer not because you can unload with wands (remember - as a constructor, you'll spend your entire turn and the time between your turn and your next turn building your constructs, and that's time you aren't going to be able to use wands). Rather, it's because they are an int-based class with a lot of construct-friendly abilities, notably their infusions. I'd suggest looking at "hordificer" builds (those that assemble a "horde" of constructs and buff the nonliving daylights out of them) for ideas. By the time your army is up and running (at least until you hit Constructor 5) and you'd be fine just switching to wands, the battle will probably be over. (Generally speaking I never have more than three constructs* running at once unless I've got time to set them up in advance - and one of those constructs is the personal construct assembled on the spot). Furthermore, a good wandificer is rather feat-hungry in its own right and slightly delayed in coming online (as you get Metamagic Spell Trigger and Craft Wand, the two important feats here, at 7th level, meaning the soonest you can get Wand Mastery is 9th and other wand feats are even later). * My own constructor makes use of Astral Zealot from Hyperconscious, which gives another stackable Boost Construct, quite a lot of personal durability (a good Fortitude save and a temporary hit point buffer, for instance) and a few abilities based around a power from that book, Throw Ectoform (which creates an ectoplasmic copy of you every round; it's sort of like mirror image in that regard except that the images are even more fragile (area effects pop them) but they can detach from you and interact with the world). One of those abilities gives the copies the stats of low-level astral constructs. I have, in the past, had something like twelve constructs running at once because of this, although most of them were just doing Aid Anothers or rushing civilians to safety.
#5 marrithl2 Mar 08, 2013 17:24:55	Nice! Thanks again Tempest, I think I have enough to go off of now. I can't wait to start spawning hordes of constructs to perform tasks (both mundane and combatative in nature)! - Marrtih

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

marrithl2

Mar 06, 2013 23:32:20

Hey everyone,

I'm trying to come up with a good Gestalt Psion Constructor build. My original idea was to make a gnome illusionist/summoner by doing a beguiler/shadow mage/shadowcaster on one side with psion/Constructor/Ectopic Adept on the other. I liked the INT synergy and the immense versatility of spellcasting... being a gnome is always fun too! Of course when I tried to put these things together for my gestalt character, there was just too much being crammed in and I couldn't find a way to make it all work out.

I'm wondering if anyone can give me a build which does something similar to my original concept. If not, could you propose a good build based more on the Constructor/astral construct shaper theme? (classes, prc's, feats, whatever you think is helpful)

Thanks in advance,

Some links:
==========
3.5 Constructor: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b
3.0 Constructor: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...<- seems better but I guess it was changed cause it's too good

Tempest_Stormwind

Mar 07, 2013 0:38:54

Hey everyone,

I'm trying to come up with a good Gestalt Psion Constructor build. My original idea was to make a gnome illusionist/summoner by doing a beguiler/shadow mage/shadowcaster on one side with psion/Constructor/Ectopic Adept on the other. I liked the INT synergy and the immense versatility of spellcasting... being a gnome is always fun too! Of course when I tried to put these things together for my gestalt character, there was just too much being crammed in and I couldn't find a way to make it all work out.

I'm wondering if anyone can give me a build which does something similar to my original concept. If not, could you propose a good build based more on the Constructor/astral construct shaper theme? (classes, prc's, feats, whatever you think is helpful)

Thanks in advance,

What books? What starting level? What's the rest of your team? We kind of need to know these things.

A few observations from a longtime shaper/constructor player.
1) Do not take Ectopic Adept. Its sole advantage is that it can ignore the stupid nerf to astral construct introduced in the same book (i.e. only one construct at a time). There's no reason to do that nerf (Bruce Cordell, when cornered, said it was to prevent wilders from breaking the game by summoning powerful constructs early - note that the nerf does nothing of the sort!), and thus no reason for ectopic adept.

2) Given how you're creating constructs and looking for Int synergy, have you considered straight-up Artificer on the other side? It'll be stronger overall (because the arty's insane), but even an artificer that's holding back and concentrating on infusions instead of item creation can find a niche with this approach. Look at how many infusions operate on constructs.

3) The Mind's Eye offered expanded class features at one point. For the shaper, it was Personal Construct. Take this. In its conservative interpretation, it lets you Quicken Astral Construct (something normally impossible) at no increased power point cost (another major benefit). Under its generous interpretation, it lets you manifest your preferred construct for free as well. Under either interpretation, it lets you toss out a construct on the first round of combat, when normally you'd be looking at spending that round (and the entire time before your next turn) finishing off your first manifestation. This benefit is amazing with wise construct choices. Without this ability, constructors are painfully slow to get moving without serious action acceleration.

3.5 Constructor: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b
3.0 Constructor: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...<- seems="" better="" but="" i="" guess="" it="" was="" changed="" cause="" s="" too="" good="" quote="" br="" class="mbQuoteSpacer">

No, no, NO. It was changed because 3e psionics was a dramatically different system from 3.5, and the old constructor makes no sense in that light. 3e psionics was simultaneously overpowered and underpowered, and an absolute pain to work with. (Example: You're a shaper (int-based). You want to manifest a psychometabolism power, such as the thematically appropriate ectoplasmic form? Hope you've got a high Strength. Yes, Strength.) They introduced a variant feat that let you give up a class feature, and everybody took it to the point where it was considered more essential to its class than Natural Spell or Power Attack. And

the less said about psionic combat, the better.

I'll let AntiDjinn explain what was up with that:

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

marrithl2

Mar 07, 2013 12:57:03

Thanks Tempest!

First off, more details for my campaign:

Tempest_Stormwind

Mar 08, 2013 12:36:19

All you need to make a good constructor is Boost Construct, really (although Overchannel would not go amiss; look into gear or Vigor to absorb its damage because you'll probably be expending focus on Personal Construct). Both psion and artificer get bonus feats to cover most of their expected roles, so you won't be too strapped. Since psions aren't terribly gear-dependent and artificers can build whatever gear you want anyway (Torc of Power Preservation comes to mind), you should be fine.

I suggested Artificer not because you can unload with wands (remember - as a constructor, you'll spend your entire turn and the time between your turn and your next turn building your constructs, and that's time you aren't going to be able to use wands). Rather, it's because they are an int-based class with a lot of construct-friendly abilities, notably their infusions. I'd suggest looking at "hordificer" builds (those that assemble a "horde" of constructs and buff the nonliving daylights out of them) for ideas.

By the time your army is up and running (at least until you hit Constructor 5) and you'd be fine just switching to wands, the battle will probably be over. (Generally speaking I never have more than three constructs* running at once unless I've got time to set them up in advance - and one of those constructs is the personal construct assembled on the spot). Furthermore, a good wandificer is rather feat-hungry in its own right and slightly delayed in coming online (as you get Metamagic Spell Trigger and Craft Wand, the two important feats here, at 7th level, meaning the soonest you can get Wand Mastery is 9th and other wand feats are even later).

My own constructor makes use of Astral Zealot from Hyperconscious, which gives another stackable Boost Construct, quite a lot of personal durability (a good Fortitude save and a temporary hit point buffer, for instance) and a few abilities based around a power from that book, Throw Ectoform (which creates an ectoplasmic copy of you every round; it's sort of like mirror image in that regard except that the images are even more fragile (area effects pop them) but they can detach from you and interact with the world). One of those abilities gives the copies the stats of low-level astral constructs. I have, in the past, had something like twelve constructs running at once because of this, although most of them were just doing Aid Anothers or rushing civilians to safety.

marrithl2

Mar 08, 2013 17:24:55

Nice! Thanks again Tempest, I think I have enough to go off of now. I can't wait to start spawning hordes of constructs to perform tasks (both mundane and combatative in nature)!

- Marrtih