For melee:
Fighter/monk – Game over. This combination is sure to get some of the highest numbers. Monk saves and skills, combined with fighter d10 hit dice and base attack means your flurry of blows hit and hit hard. You also have a surplus of feats to spend, so in addition to wrestling like a pro you can take some feats to increase the power of your unarmed strikes (like Improved Crit and greater weapon specialization). Clearly the fighter/monk is one of the best melee gestalt characters, able to outdamage the best of fighters, rip apart rogues and mages with their low fortitude saves and generally be a pain in the ass!
Fighter/Swordsage or Fighter/warblade- Game over, again! Adding full base attack and 11 bonus fighting feats to the brainchildren of Tome of Battle will make the "True Fighter" a deadly combination. Build around any combat style, even become the supreme master of any weapon(s) you feel like and wrap that around your choice of manuevers. Something like Lightning Mace+Crushing Strike before Avalanche of Blades to lower the attack penalties might work, but I do not own ToB yet so I cant tell. (Added 09/15/2k6 credit to Tyrrell)
Paladin/Soulknife – Odd combination and looks MAD at first, but bare with me for a sec. Take brutal throw and you don’t need dexterity as much, and for the Paladin spells wisdom of 14 is affordable and qualifies you for Psionic Meditation. If done right all you really need is strength and charisma, which means your saves would skyrocket more than ever. You also get the paladin’s base attack and the soulknife’s skills. The “Divine Knife” is a great combo for slaying mages and destroying tanks.
Paladin/Knight - Very effective tank and secondary damager! d12 HD, good fort and will save, a special mount with mounted combat for free, spells and lots of anti-mobility abilities! Imagine a mounted charge from the "Double Devoted" wielding a lance in 1 hand and a heavy shield in the other smiting evil and using that Divine Feat that adds cha to weapon damage for 1 round. Get a mount with 10ft reach and you got HP, AC, damage, cha synergy, slight ally support and a mount that can hold the frontlines real well!
Paladin/soulborn - If you like playing Lawful Good this is the combo for you. Take share soulmeld (dissolving spittle) and bind that to your throat and suddenly your "Palaborn" can deal single-target nukes as good as a warlock, Incarnum adds versitility to the railroaded class features of the paladin with virtually no MAD.
Monk/paladin – The “monkadin” looks MAD at first, but by popular demand I put it on here because you can remove dependency on charisma with the Serenity feat from Champions of Valor. The “monkadin” makes a highly-mobile frontline combatant capable of destroying evil mages and annoying evil tanks. Take flying kick and the PHB2 sub that doubles smite damage at the end of a charge, combine the two with meteoric strike. It gets bloodier with a fallen “monkadin” since blackguards get sneak attack and poison use, combine those with a flurry of blows + stunning fist and paint the town red … with blood! (Credit goes to World Savers Inc, tsuyoshikentsu and Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi for this one)
Samurai/Hexblade – If you have high charisma and like melee combat, this the combo for you. Charisma powers your Hexblade’s Curse, your spells, your Staredown ability and your Kiai Smite. I would recommend losing the familiar for the Dark Companion from Players Handbook II to give the opponent -2 to AC and Saves, then stare him down, Kiai Smite + Hexblade’s Curse on a single Katana attack for some serious penalties and damage. The “Samblade” is a great melee combo to assist the ally spellcaster, downside is you are either Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil.
Barbarian/scout - Barbarian's highest Hit Dice and Base attack, combined with the scout's good reflex save and highest skill points make this combo a true "Master of Wild!" Skirmish is incredibly easy to get, imagine a charge from a raging barbarian Two-weapon-Pouncing with dual bastard swords AND skirmish! Hell, at high levels make a DC40 tumble check, tumble 10ft as a 5ft step action, rage and full attack! (Credit goes to Ithamar for this one)
Barbarian/totemist - 1 word ... PAIN! Imagine a cobalt charge from a skarn barbarian/totemist with totem avatar (shoulders and totem) girallons arms (arms and totem) and sphinx claws (hands). The "totembarian" is the totem rager on steroids, crack, ritalin and all those bad drugs (credit goes to rampant for this one)
Barbarian/psychic warrior - If you like spiked chains and tripping, this is the combo for you! Manifest Expansion, psychofeedback, Form of Doom and after all this RAGE! I havent calculated the trip mod but you can knock the Tarrasque on its ass with the "Psybarian!" (added 09/10/2k6 credit goes to the_taken)
Monk/rogue or Monk/ninja – This one is a silent but deadly unarmed combatant. Using a flurry of blows with a stunning fist +sneak attack would be bloody, and there are many ways to skin this cat. Taking monk/ninja will give wisdom synergy for extra ki powers, while taking monk/rogue and taking the Carmandine Monk feat from Champions of Valor (or Kung Fu Genius from dragon magazine) will end up with everything important to the class being based off of intelligence. The only downside is lack of HP and base attack, so against an opponent with a high flatfooted AC good luck getting those sneak attack flurry of blows off (Partial credit goes to Sphyre for this one).
Swashbuckler/lurk: If you have brains and like using them, this is the combo for you! Lurk augments are so incredibly versitile that you can get that focused sneak attack instantly. The "slurk" gets intelligence to initiative and damage, and bonus power points based on intelligence as well. Downside is a large percentage of your offence is precision-based, but Lurks can sneak attack undead and constructs.
Archivist/Warblade: I am unfamiliar with the details of Tome of Battle so let's Ceterus Paribus on the divine synergy. Archivists are the only int-based divine spellcaster in the game, and with the Prayerbook no divine spells are off limits. The "Archblade" can buff himself straight to Ownzville before any Manuever combos, trap opponents with Wall of Thorns and other druid battlefield controllers and throw fireballs all in fullplate! "Archblades" also have some intelligence synergy worth mentioning, so build a style around karmic strike and stormguard warrior and use your Divine Knowledge to back it up. (Added 09/06/2006)
Duskblade/Warblade - What is there NOT to like about this combo? Swift Casting, arcane channel and the arcane strike feat combined with Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw manuevers will make the "Arcane Initiator" a damage-dealing powerhouse. You also have slight int synergy, so if you build for Karmic Strike and max out int you can destroy the opposition with nothing but your attacks of opportunity. (Added 09/14/2k6 credit to gorfnad the shiznit)
Soulborn/monk - Odd combo at first, but bare with me for a sec. Shape the Mauling Gauntlets for extra unarmed damage, take the Sapphire Fist, Sapphire Smite and Improved Essentia/expanded soulmeld capacity feats and you can become a soulcharged unarmed strike powerhouse. You are Lawful Good, which means you can build this around a Vow of Poverty (VoP + Nymph's Kiss +Carmandine Monk to reduce MAD for example and get better skills) and if you can abuse Timeless Body more power to you. The "Monkborn" is a powerful unarmed-strike damage dealer, though its a bit MAD and requires some work. (added 09/10/2k6)
Incarnate/crusader or Incarnate/swordsage - The versitility of incarnum combined with the power of swordsage and crusader manuevers should be illegal, but it's not! Combine Sapphire Smite as crusader or Indigo Strike as Swordsage, shape Incarnate Avatar and Incarnate Weapon to either make up for lack of attack bonus or fuel Power attack, and dont get me started on Chaos Incarnate Radiance + shape soulmeld (Dread Carapace) with Tornado Throw.
Martial Rogue/warblade - The "War Rogue" is basically the above martial adept/fighter combo with rogue skill points and a good reflex save. You end up with the highest numbers except for a good will save, which can be circumvented with endurance and steadfast determination. Take skill mastery on the key skills of your chosen discipline, and for bonus feats go with everything two-weapon fighting including Double Hit. What the "War Rogue" lacks in feats he certainly can make up for as a secondary skill engine.
For skills:
Incarnate/rogue or Incarnate/psychic rogue – If you like high skill checks, the “Roguecarnum” is the class for you! The numerous amounts of skill points and class skills combined with the various bonuses to skill checks granted by Incarnate soulmelds make this combo perfect for any specialized rogue. I would recommend avoiding soulmelds that require a saving throw since you want intelligence more than wisdom, I also recommend being a human with Nymph’s Kiss (book of exalted deeds) for 2 extra skill points if you're Neutral Good, shape soulmeld (Worg Pelt) for the extra stealth, azure power so if you know you may need more power points you can get some and maybe an expanded knowledge (any ranged touch kineticism power).
Warlock/scout – Yet another odd combo at first, but don’t be quick to label this as MAD. Unlike my previous combination, a warlock/scout needs less skills to be effective in both roles; playing a human with Nymph’s Kiss guarantees at least 10 skill points per level which is more than enough to scout. The best thing about this combo is the synergy of warlock invocations and skirmish damage. Shot on the Run + skirmish blast, skirmish blast while hidden, quicken SLA (flee the scene) + skirmish blast and at high levels Dark Discorporation for “Swarmish” damage. Somebody show me a better mate for a Gestalt warlock because if I don’t see it than the “Scoutlock” stays on top!
Any melee full BaB class/Expert - If your DM allows this, he needs a backbone! Let's say barbarian/expert for example, the highest HD, full base attack, 6 skillpoints per level and the expert's privilege to add ANY 10 skills to his class skill list can break this in half! Paladin/expert can suddenly become a master at tracking and slaying undead and evil creatures! And if you like lots of sneak attack d6, expert/rogue or expert/ninja with Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill!
Marshall/Dragon Shaman - Both of these classes can project auras, and while the marshall can fight the dragon shaman has some interesting choices of class skills and a breath weapon. The "Marshaman" is a great combo for ally support, better than the "Samblade." (credit goes to AramilWindwalker for this one)
Ninja/scout - This one reminds me of one of the ninjas from the Playstation 2 game Shinobi. Go invisible, charge with two-weapon-pounce + sudden strike + skirmish. Not that many attacks but thats alot of precision damage, downside is you become slightly MAD due to a need for skills. (credit goes to rampant for this one)
Bard/Hexblade or Marshall/Hexblade - This combo can combine Hexblade power-downs with Bardic Music or Marshall Aura power-ups. Combine Hexblade's Curse and Dark Companion with Marshall Auras to make the fight easier, or you could play music and use arcane strike to make the fight easier. Positive ally buffs and negative opponent debuffs, the "Dark Marshall" and "Cursed Musician" make incredible ally supporters. (added 09/14/2k6 credit to gorfnad the shiznit)
Divine Bard/Paladin of freedom - Game over! d10 HD, full base attack bonus, divine grace + all good saves and several awesome class skills make the "Singer of Freedom" a powerful force. The real key is charisma synergy, you only need 16wisdom for your spells but you can cast them in armor so you only need strength and charisma. Imagine the combination of Smite Evil, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Snowflake Wardance, inspire courage and many more on all your melee attacks. Downside is you are required to use class modifications. (added 4/25/2k7 credit goes to AZNSupermarket)
For spells:
Cleric/Druid – Game over. Let’s Ceterus Paribus on the spells and class features of both classes: Those legendary cleric buff spells synergize so well when you share them with your animal companion, wildshape which is arguably the most powerful class feature in the Players’ Handbook, domains for added flexibility, timeless body, 2 spellcasting classes both based on wisdom, AND a respectable skill list make the “CaD” (Cleric AND druid) an unstoppable force of nature even without any customization or feats! Now lets make the “CaD” a cleric of Obad-hai, give him the earth and fire domains for a cleric who can blow stuff up, give him natural spell, fast wildshape, sacred vow, vow of poverty (which makes the equipment portion of the wildshape errata meaningless) and Zen Archery all add up to the best spellcasting gestalt combo capable of being anyone and anything, and doing anyone and anything (Credit goes to davethebrave371 and bard-of-all-trades for this one).
Beguiler/warmage – An odd combo at first glance but I’m playing a Halfling one of these for the Gestalt campaign I mentioned earlier. Beguiler casting means your warmage edge is extra powerful, warmage casting means your surprise casting ability is very effective. But the best thing about this combo is all the spells you know: Both of these classes learn their entire lists for every spell level, warmage lacks utilities and buffs and Beguiler lacks nukes … both of these classes together negate each others weaknesses if you can pull it off right!
Beguiler/Duskblade - A highly effective Warcaster and Skillcaster. The d8HD, full base attack and 2 good saves are the icing, but the cake is the intelligence synergy. Both classes cast arcane spells off of intelligence, use your Beguiler spells to set the opponent up and your duskblade abilities to finish the opponent off! Simple, versitile and effective, I think I like the "Hidden Blade." (Added 09/11/2k6 credit to Radu the Wanderer)
Sorcerer/Shugenja – Imagine the character lucky enough to possess both inborn arcane AND divine magical talents! Better than the cleric/wizard or even cleric/sorcerer because all the spellcasting is based on charisma and you don’t have to prepare a single spell in your life. You can pick a chosen element based on what your party needs and learn the sorcerer utilities/buffs/nukes etc, if cleric/wizard is the Mystic Theurge on steroids then the “Sorgenja” lives on a whole new dimension of Mystic Theurge!
Wizard/archivist: Im not a big fan of spellbook-casting, but this is the "True Theurge!" The entire character runs off intelligence, with scrolls you can cast any spell in the game. Imagine how you could buff yourself (divine power + giant size anyone?). The "True Theurge" is in many ways better then my "Sorgenja."
Warlock/Archivist: If you thought the "sorgenja" was lucky than how lucky is the character who can cast any divine spell off of intelligence AND has warlock invocations? At low levels you can act in a way similar to a cleric archer in light armor, but past level 12 you can cast pretty much anything. The "Archlock" is up there with the very powerful multicaster gestalt types like "True Theurge" and "Sorgenja." (added 07/27/2k7 credit to COsupermarket)
Psion/Wilder – Yet another odd combination, but think of all the power points you could have. The best thing is the Wild Surge which is NOT limited to Wilder powers. This combo is the best for psionic novas, you can fire off lots of Overchanneled Wild Surging energy balls (fire). If you manifest metamorphosis and turn into a creature immune to being dazed (is there such a creature?) you need not worry about losing your actions from Psychic Innervation. Downside is you become MAD without much int synergy (Credit goes to Bulletproof_Condom for this combo).
Shaper/Marshall - Are you tired of having Auras but nobody to gain its glorious benefits? The "Ectopic Warherd" is the perfect solution! Take some Ectopic Form feats, spit out astral constructs and Larval Flayers like there's no tomorrow and no last week; you now have some powerful ectoplasmic creatures to enjoy your auras. If you like Leadership, take 10 levels in Thrallherd and 5 levels in Ectopic Adept on the shaper side and you have at least 4 willing benefits for your Marshall auras. Ask your DM if "Ectopic Warherd" is right for you, side effects may include MAD without charisma synergy and a sudden increase in sculpting ability. (Added 09/10/2k6 based off Pontelon's idea)
Druid/Monk - Imagine this: A decisive strike at the end of a pounce from a dire tiger with flying kick and fiery fist! Thats alot of bite damage, and with spells like animal growth and nature's power you lose no accuracy! Druid's are casters first warriors second but the "Nature's Fist" suddenly becomes a god of combat (Credit goes to AZNsupermarket for this one)!
Duskblade/cleric - Vanara is the best race for this combo. Combine harm or inflict critical wounds with a full attack two-weapon-fighting with dual elven thinblades (only if spell damage is multiplied on a crit), use Quick Casting on those legendary cleric buffs and you've got a divine powerhouse. The "Priestblade" is a great combo for a standard warcaster (I hate the word Gish), downside is you become MAD but Duskblades are playable with only 15 intelligence (credit goes to Sphyre for this one)
Warlock/soulknife - The "Warknife" makes a great shock-hitter capable of getting that one good psychic stab. Imagine an empowered maximized Noxious or Utterdark Blast delivered via Hideous Blow with a mindblade powered up with psychic strike and greater magic weapon. 99+4d6+5d8+1d10+(1.5 x str) = one powerful attack! Show those good paladins how a smite should be done! (Credit goes to Rampant for this one)
Monk/psychic warrior - I added this by popular demand. There is so much synergy between monk abilities and psychic warrior manifesting that saying them all would be like spoiling the end of a movie! Use your psywar feats to develop a combat style, manifest expansion + reach weapon +several other legendary personal buff powers and you got a gigantic Kung-fu fighting powerhouse! If you like Carmandine Monk better, replace Psychic Warrior with Egoist. (added 09/10/2k6)
Paladin/Favored Soul - A truly unstoppable force of Good and Law. Take spontaneous healer on the paladin side and you got healing covered while your favored soul side picks the cleric spells to help melee. You get turn undead on spontaneous divine spellcasting, so you can abuse Divine Metamagic or gain direct benefit from your high charisma by using Divine Might every round. To further reduce MAD, pick up Zen Archery for your ranged spells and Intuitive Attack with a simple weapon, although you need the PHB2 Deity's weapon focus/specialization replacements for that. (Added 09/15/2k6 credit to MagicMouth)
Dread Necromancer/Duskblade - The "Dreadblade" is basically the "Priestblade" focused more on damage. Arcane channel harm, arcane strike a 9th level spell and blow a turn attempt on Divine Might for some nasty melee damage. Swift cast animate dead, with Undead Mastery abuse you can have your undead legions AND fight along side them too. Downside is you're stuck in light armor which means you need at the very least 18 dex to wear mithral chainmail. (Added 10/15/2k6 credit goes to Master_Ghola).
Druid//psychic warrior - If you like wildshape, this is the combo for you! You have 2 classes based on wisdom which means lots of spells and power points. Wildshape something nasty, manifest all the legendary psywar self-buffs like Expansion, take battlefield control spells like improved bullrush and knockback in combination with charge multipliers like Leap Attack and Battle Jump. Enemies won't get anywhere near you and you can charge them, the "Psychic Beast" is the quintessense of gestalt synergy (added 3/30/2k7).
Cleric//Crusader - If you like healing but hate devoting spell slots to it, the "Divine Clersader" is right for you! You can buff yourself straight to ownzville before using any maneuvers, support allies with devoted spirit healing and white raven boosts and on top of all that be the most stable character in the game. If the "Divine Clersader" dies in combat, something went seriously wrong! (added 3/30/2k7)
Oh, and we can’t forget the unstoppable Gestalt commoner/humanoid! A character so powerful that Pun-pun himself would stand in awe before the great “Commonoid!” :heehee
If anybody else has any good gestalt combos that are not in Unearthed Arcana, feel encouraged to post them here. As usual if anybody has any questions or comments regarding my Gestalt resource *casts flame resistance 30* feel encouraged to post them here.
Druid/Rogue ((Read below at the Ranger Wizard, only this is that much better, A perfect blend of martial, scouting, casting, and backup. It has the best options in the game, and can do so many things in a round an enemy can't prepare for it all))
Ranger/Wizard ((Like the above counterpart, only with a few more crutches, arcane casting can generaly do more, and with full bab to back up those ranged touch spells, archery feats to fall back on and nature oriented abilities to play with. It eventualy gains a few mentionable spells.))
Hexblade/Warlock ((This is just so flavorful the two classes were designed to be put together))
Sorcerer/Favored Soul ((The divine mystic theurge and champion of a dieity, use celestial or infernal blooded sorc feats from PHB II to great effect here, the only downfall is both of its spell lists are static, and can't be changed unless the new Retraining Options are used from PHB II to cycle out spell lists, in which case this becomes a very potent build, slight MAD))
Warlock/Binder ((The master of SLA's))
Wizard/Archivist ((Mystic Theurge))
The above are viable and completely potent at every level of play. Which is what Gestalt is all about. I don't consider Gestalt being a way to cram multiple roles in one. But to synergise and do your role insanely well.
The above are viable and completely potent at every level of play. Which is what Gestalt is all about. I don't consider Gestalt being a way to cram multiple roles in one. But to synergise and do your role insanely well.
I agree. Too many of my players try to cram multiple threats into one with gestalt sorc/fighter or sorc/rogue or some ****. Just because you have the power of 2 classes does not mean you need to spread yourself so thin. Thats the purpose of this gestalt resource, not to provide combinations to do multiple things together but to find combos that synergize well enough to do your job much better.
Psion/Wilder - Again, doesn't sound like much. It's the psionic equivalent of the sorcerer/wizard but with one important distinction: wild surge. The BAB and the Hit Die are nice, but wild surge is the key because it's not limited to wilder powers. Double power points and wild surge make for a seemingly limitless stream of psychic power. Enervation Endurance from Complete Psionic is a must-have.
Some of the barbarian variants combined with monk variants could work nicely too.
Nix the Monk/PsyWar, actually; Monk/Ardent. Screw the feats--high-level powers. Spellcasters win D&D.
Warlock/scout – Yet another odd combo at first, but don’t be quick to label this as MAD. Unlike my previous combination, a warlock/scout needs less skills to be effective in both roles; playing a human with Nymph’s Kiss guarantees at least 10 skill points per level which is more than enough to scout. The best thing about this combo is the synergy of warlock invocations and skirmish damage. Shot on the Run + skirmish blast, skirmish blast while hidden, quicken SLA (flee the scene) + skirmish blast and at high levels Dark Discorporation for “Swarmish” damage. Somebody show me a better mate for a Gestalt warlock because if I don’t see it than the “Scoutlock” stays on top!
Agreed. I played one of these and was "ordered" by the DM to ceast and decist.
My tactic was more dropping Darkness everywhere, clouding the battlefield, while moving with ease with my hide checks.
I have always been fond of the Barbarian / Scout combination. Excellent skills, great HD, good BAB, two good saves, bonus feats, rage, etc. Truly a Master of the Wild kind of character.
That is a good combo. Skirmish is broken enough to get all that damage on a skirmish charge, skirmish + spring attack and even a DC40 tumble check to skirmish full attack. Give it a nickname and I'll put it up there, it makes the Barbarian even more powerful in melee.
Psion/Wilder - Again, doesn't sound like much. It's the psionic equivalent of the sorcerer/wizard but with one important distinction: wild surge. The BAB and the Hit Die are nice, but wild surge is the key because it's not limited to wilder powers. Double power points and wild surge make for a seemingly limitless stream of psychic power. Enervation Endurance from Complete Psionic is a must-have.
I like that one, psion/wilder can fire off plenty of novas thanks to Wild Surge and the Overchannel feat. If you know metamorphosis just metamorph into a creature immune to being dazed (if there is one) and you can fire off all the Wild Surged novas you want without worry. Downside is you become MAD without much need for int. Give it a nickname and I'll put it up there as well.
Are you sure that a Warlock//Binder is actually that good at low levels, Mysk? I'm actually creating a level 3 Warlock//Binder at the moment, and he just doesn't seem that strong. What vestige would you bind at this level? I'm strongly considering Paimon (with Improved Binding), with Malphas, Naberius, or Amon as secondary options.
Take another look at Aym - her bonus fire damage and fire aura help you immensely in melee combat (useable with Hideous Blow if you can), and fire resistance is always good.
The real treasure Aym gives is Dwarven Step, but I don't think your build utilizes that; perhaps a 1-level fighter dip? Nothing like moving 30 in full plate while on fire!
A Beguiler // Warlock might be interesting too. Full spellcasting & skill to go with invocations and EB.
On the fighter side, build a standard Improved Trip spiked chain monster, on the Psion side, get some buff powers (Expand is REALLY good here) and some big Nukes.
Since your standard tripper is mostly based on attacks of opportunity, you can use your standard action for buffing/nuking.
If they stand back, you'll burn them down, if they get close, you'll trip them, tear them up, and THEN burn them down.
Tossing in some Swashbuckler on the fighter side to use INT instead of STR doesn't hurt, but I think you still need high STR for the trips, so it might not be worthwhile.
I have a couple favorites:
ninja/druid= all good saves, decent skills, wsidom synergy, a wis to ac that stays while wildshaped. invisbility plus pounce from a great cat form + sudden strike is brutal. known by me as the "hippie azzazzin"
marshal/dragon shaman= a true party buffer and support. with three auras, breath weapons, healing, and decent fighting capabilities, the "Marshaman" is a powerful ally for a large group of any kind.
along with several of the aforementioned pairs
Saves: incredible.
HP: plenty.
BAB: good.
Spells: nearly full if you do it right.
AC: awesome, with buffs and Ascetic Mage.
Vulnerabilities: ???
I'd call it the "Arcane Fister", but, y'know, that sounds wrong.
...hmm... you know what'd be funny? In games where two PrCs are allowed, a Dervish/Dwarven Defender. He can dance OR sit still!
And if you're allowing prestige classes, then Scout/Psion-Elocator is scary good
Personally I think that Bard // Warmage has better synergy than Beguiler // Warmage. Bard gives medium BAB which helps with the touch spells & some better weapons & has the same number of skill points ... further both are Cha casting. Int helps the Warmage but not as much as Cha does....
A Beguiler // Warlock might be interesting too. Full spellcasting & skill to go with invocations and EB.
Not a big fan of the bard and we already have a warlock. I also didnt want to play chaotic or evil.
Monk/Paladin->Sorc->Enlightened Fist.
Saves: incredible.
HP: plenty.
BAB: good.
Spells: nearly full if you do it right.
AC: awesome, with buffs and Ascetic Mage.
Vulnerabilities: ???
Seems kinda MAD, since monks are heavily wis based even with Ascetic Mage. I would also like to avoid "Gishtalt" characters like the above mentioned trip-nova. Remember, I prefer synergy to dual-threat.
I have a couple favorites:
ninja/druid= all good saves, decent skills, wsidom synergy, a wis to ac that stays while wildshaped. invisbility plus pounce from a great cat form + sudden strike is brutal. known by me as the "hippie azzazzin"
marshal/dragon shaman= a true party buffer and support. with three auras, breath weapons, healing, and decent fighting capabilities, the "Marshaman" is a powerful ally for a large group of any kind.
Your "hippie azzazzin" combo is impressive. Melee, skills or spells? Why not all of the above?!
Im putting both of these on the list.Please start to ignore PrC please? Gestalt becomes significantly less broken without Prestige and I would like to keep these combos limited to only 2 standard classes.
Your "hippie azzazzin" combo is impressive. Melee, skills or spells? Why not all of the above?!
Don't forget Extra Spell (Divine Power).
Even without gestalt, a well built Ninja/Druid is freaking scary as hell.
Ah, here it is:
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
Further, I'm of the school that thinks Extra Spell has no wording that allows you to get a spell from outside your otherwise available spells (which, yes, makes it largely useless for Clerics and Druids unless the GM restricts new material as a rule).
The sheer flavor of having Weapon Supremecy with your mindblade asside, this is a pretty good combo. The fighter levels let you take combat-related feats, freeing up your normal feats for the blade-related feats. In addition you get all good saves, full bab, and the soulknife's skill list.
A better combination would probably include kensei and illumine soul on the fighter side, though.
Or Spellthief 20 // Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 16 or something like that instead if you like...Fighter is mostly there for the feats and BaB in this case. Take Spellfire Wielder (if I understand it correctly).
This should preferably be done when a helpful party member is playing a Warlock // ??? with helpful invocations.
Be warned though, if any of your friends play KoL, you're going to have to deal with 'Demoninja' jokes until the end of time.
H) Great Fortitude
1) Dodge
3) Iron Will
6) Spell Focus (evil)
...
Charges every round with no AoOs. Use the Fighter/PsyWar feats to pick up charge feats. Depending on how you interpret Arcane Channeling (full attack), it may or may not be legal on a pounce (psionic lion's charge item).
. Oh, the odd level of wizard is there so you can borrow the spellbook learning ability for the sorcerer levels. It *IS* a casting feature right? If your GM won't allow that, he'll probably have to allow a wizard 19/sorcerer 1 to cast any known spell without preparation -- though you will lose out on about 30% of your arcane spell slots.Some sort of combo involving a barbarian 10/war mind 10 on one branch has loads of tanking potential. Nice DR, rage, and some psionics to give you more versatility. Also, anything that involves elocater and rogue means loads of sneak attacks, which is a Good Thing.
It *IS* a casting feature right? If your GM won't allow that, he'll probably have to allow a wizard 19/sorcerer 1 to cast any known spell without preparation -- though you will lose out on about 30% of your arcane spell slots.
A casting feature for wizard spellcasting- it's like saying a sorcerer cleric pools their spells & spell lists
For some all out spellcasting abilities, I'd say the best way to go is to get a single level of wizard, then get cleric and sorcerer. At level 5, when you are Sorcerer 4//Cleric 3/Wizard 1, you can start alternating Cleric and Sorcerer (Play human or some race that favours wizard, and keep sorceror and cleric within 1 level of each other to avoid XP penalties) on one branch, and fill up on geomancer levels on the other branch. You now have the potential for lvl 20 sorcery, level 19 clerical casting, all based on any one single attribute of your choice. I'd reccomend inteligence, for the sake of skill points
I can't follow this. Could you show a 20//20 progression?
paladin/favoredsoul
hexblade/favoredsoul
warmage/favoredsoul
hexblade/rogue
Cast as a (edit: nearly) 40th level cleric. Little other synergy, but what more could you want?
(Mentioning this one is just plain cheeky.)
Edit: In practise, it wouldn't be Cleric 20 / Eidoloncer 20. It could be nearly that, though.
However, a TWF Fighter/Rogue dagger-user is nice; you could almost call it a Jack of Blades, but you'd need to really do more than use two classes however.
Focus on sneak-attacking with daggers and SA from further back or closer in (with quick draw and TWF and multiple daggers, you could draw and throw a great deal of daggers at a target, if you were at range and your hide skill can deal with the -20 to your hide check to 'snipe' you could in theory deal SA damage on each throw; taking the Dark Stalker feat maens that no one could use cheap tricks like scent or all-around vision to negate your tricks).
It really benefits if you can take a lvl barbarian to unlock Snow Tiger Berzerker to perfrom full attack actions after charging with light weapons, like the daggers.
"But Yare!", they'll say. "Class abilities can't overlap in Gestalt characters!".
This is why you stagger your levels. If you have two classes that give the same class feature on let's say odd levels (like the rogue and OA ninja), offset one of the classes like so:
Rogue1 / Fighter1 : +1d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue2 / OA Ninja1 : +2d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue3 / OA Ninja2 : +3d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue4 / OA Ninja3 : +4d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue5 / OA Ninja4 : +5d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue6 / OA Ninja5 : +6d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue7 / OA Ninja6 : +7d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue8 / OA Ninja7 : +8d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue9 / OA Ninja8 : +9d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue10 / OA Ninja9 : +10d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue11 / OA Ninja10 : +11d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue12 / OA Ninja11 : +12d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue13 / OA Ninja12 : +13d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue14 / OA Ninja13 : +14d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue15 / OA Ninja14 : +15d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue16 / OA Ninja15 : +16d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue17 / OA Ninja16 : +17d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue18 / OA Ninja17 : +18d6 SA (OA ninja)
Rogue19 / OA Ninja18 : +19d6 SA (rogue)
Rogue20 / OA Ninja19 : +20d6 SA (OA ninja)
No more overlapping class features. =) This works with any class that offers Sudden Strike, as well. Make sure to go for awesome two-weapon fighting with this build. I would probably take all 5 levels of Invisible Blade at some point to ensure I could stand toe-to-toe with my opponent and still get SA damage on all of my iterative attacks.
If you can't use 3.0 / OA classes, you could use the fighter variante that gets sneak attack progression rather than bonus feats. The goal is to get that extra 10d6 sneak damage, and full BAB.
everyone knows that druids are one of the most powerful classes in the game, but give them wis to ac, better unarmed strike, all good saves, and cart load of other monk abilities, and you get a pretty sick character.
Although it states that the same class features do not stack, the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and the Ninja's (The CA one anyway) Sudden Strike are not the same abilities in the first place. Although they do the exact same thing, and count in nearly all the same instances, they are still seperate abilities. The only note of this is made in CA, where it says that Sudden Strike can be counted as Sneak Attack for PrC prereqs.
I just think Dragon Shaman should gestalt w/ all Cha builds; it seems to be what the class was designed for. Dragon Shaman // Paladin, for example, or Shaman // Bard (to sublime chord).
In a 4 person gestalt party that allows for concentrating on one ability... another +1 BAB class could potentially eliminate the set back that warhulk gives you for the +20 str for a 10 level investment, not to mention the other awesome increases... This is of course figuring that a gestalt character could EVER be large. Good luck with that one.
You really can't gp wrong with war hulk...
In a 4 person gestalt party that allows for concentrating on one ability... another +1 BAB class could potentially eliminate the set back that warhulk gives you for the +20 str for a 10 level investment, not to mention the other awesome increases... This is of course figuring that a gestalt character could EVER be large. Good luck with that one.
Goliath loses ONE level...qualifies as large...do Clr9/WHk10//Bbn19
Dwarf
1 Wizard/Fighter
2 Wizard/Cleric
3 Wizard/Cleric
4 Wizard/Cleric
5 Wizard/Cleric
6 Runesmith/Cleric
7 Wizard/Havoc Mage
8 Havoc Mage/Cleric
9 Wizard/Havoc Mage
10 Havoc Mage/Cleric
11 Havoc Mage/Cleric
12 Wizard/Contemplative
13 Fatespinner/Cleric
14 Wizard/Contemplative
15 Fatespinner/Cleric
16 Wizard/Contemplative
17 Fatespinner/Cleric
18 Wizard/Contemplative
19 Fatespinner/Cleric
20 Wizard/Contemplative
This results in Fighter 1/Wizard 12/Runesmith 1/Havoc Mage 5/Fatespinner 4/Cleric 12/Contemplative 5.
This is a 20th level Arcane caster, 17th level Divine caster, with +18 BAB and the ability to automatically, without feats, Quicken and cast any arcane spell of 8th level or lower while making a full attack action while wearing any sort of heavy armor. Meanwhile, Divine spells can be (if you so choose) cast with the Divine Metamagic cheese that all minmaxed clerics abuse.
With the Alternative Spell Source feat (Dragon #325) you can even swap around your Divine and Arcane spells in order to maximize Divine Metamagic and Battlecast abilities. For example, Divine Metamagic a Draconic Polymorph without the Spell domain, and Battlecast Harm during a melee as a free action.
The build can cast arcane spells in heavy armor from 6th level on, starts gaining free unlimited Quickens (via Battlecast) at level 8 and gains its Battlecasting maximum at 11th level.
I got lazy towards the end... you can swap out the Fatespinner levels with any Arcane progression-boosting PrC, and same with the Contemplative. In fact, you can think of those slots as being open to two 2-level-dips of arcane caster PrCs, two 2-level-dips in divine caster PrCs, and an open level of divine PrC. Fatespinner 2/Wild Mage 2/Contemplative 2/Divine Oracle 2/Church Inquisitor 1 for example would work in those last slots.
Race: Shadar-Kai
Rog5/Asn9/Dread Commando5//Ftr4/Ninja5/Shadowblade10
Believe it or not, you can end up with a +19 BAB...with a spiked chain and +15d6! SA/SS etc...OWNS the night!
Note: the +15d6 doesn't include the devastatingly flexible Unseen Weapon ability of the Shadowblade...
Edit: +19 BAB
Goliath loses ONE level...qualifies as large...do Clr9/WHk10//Bbn19
Golaiths/Half-Giants/anything else with Powerful Build do not qualify as large. They can act in some ways as though they were one size category larger, but they cannot use their Powerful Build to qualify for Prestige Classes that have a size requirement of large (unless your DM rules otherwise).
@ Yare
Although it states that the same class features do not stack, the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and the Ninja's (The CA one anyway) Sudden Strike are not the same abilities in the first place. Although they do the exact same thing, and count in nearly all the same instances, they are still seperate abilities. The only note of this is made in CA, where it says that Sudden Strike can be counted as Sneak Attack for PrC prereqs.
I'd like to take note here that Sudden Strike is vastly inferior to Sneak Attack as it can only be used when the opponent is denied DEX to AC, not while flanking. <.<
Monk/Psychic Warrior. Sure, you don't get full BAB and d10, or as many feats... but PsyWar powers are incredible for a monk, and the Wisdom synergy is helpful.
why not make it monk20//fighter10/warmind10? The best of both worlds ;)
How about using dragon disciple to gain loads of bonus spells/level for *free*?
stat abuse builds are awesome:
Mr Wisdom
saint fighter8/dragon warrior10 // NG paladin (dragon magasine)4/human paragon3/warmind10/shiba protector1
Important feats:
inuitive strike
serenity
wis>
hit*2
damage (unarmed)
saves
HP for 10 levels
AC*2
Power points/manifesting stat
Mr Int (requires savage progression allowed)
Black ethergaunt20 // swashbuckler4/martial monk6/duelist10
important feats:
faireie mysteries initiate
carmendine monk
Int>
AC*2 (limited to +10 second time)
HP
Damage
casting stat(wizard 17)
Special:
+20 racial int
Mr Cha
sorcerer10/walker in the wastes10 // hexblade3/paladin of tyranny4/blackguard6/monk1/tattoed monk5/marshal1
Important feats:
divine might
ascetic monk
Important items:
gauntlets of heartfelt blows
boots of use activated psionics lions charge
cha>
damage *2 (*3 on charge)
HP
saves*2
saves against spells
AC
casting stat (sorcerer20)
Special:
Add cha mod to 1 stat for small amount or rounds/day (bellflower tatoo). Use it to add to cha, with maxed cha it will give an extra +8 cha.
Abusing the system rocks
@ Yare
Although it states that the same class features do not stack, the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and the Ninja's (The CA one anyway) Sudden Strike are not the same abilities in the first place. Although they do the exact same thing, and count in nearly all the same instances, they are still seperate abilities. The only note of this is made in CA, where it says that Sudden Strike can be counted as Sneak Attack for PrC prereqs.
I specified (all over my post) that I was talking about the 3.0 Oriental Adventures ninja class, which hasn't been updated to 3.5 as far as I know -and is a completely different base class from the CA Ninja.
Wow, I am blind. Sorry for the mixup. On a side note, which page/book is the OA Ninja in. I cheked OA already, but couldnt seem to find it, which is probably another case of my blindness.
Thanks.
@ Yare
I cheked OA already, but couldnt seem to find it, which is probably another case of my blindness.
Thanks.
Actually, this one was my bad. I just checked, and the Ninja base class isn't part of Oriental Adventures, but is instead part of the Rokugan Campaign Setting (not a WotC product). Both are good books, though. =)
Duskblade/Wizard – An odd combination at first, but if you combine a prepared touch spell with Arcane Channeling you could deal some serious full attack damage. Some suggestions would be shocking grasp, bestow curse, Ottos Irresistable Dance (Ottos Irresistable Dance + Arcane channeling + whirlwind attack with a spiked chain. A 10ft dance floor!) and plenty of others. The "Wizblade" is a good combo for a standard Warcaster (I hate the word Gish) though there might be better out there if anybody can present them.
A duskblade is quite playable with a 13-15 int, if you have the stats to get a higher wisdom, the Duskblade/Cleric combination can be devastating. With all of the touch spells the cleric has (note that Arcane channeling does not restrict you to channeling only arcane spells) such as Harm and slay living, and buff spells such as enlarge person and righteous might. Basically, you can play your cleric at full bab, with auto-quickened spells (instant buffs in those times of need, or heals or the like) along with adding touch attacks to your attacks, you're just making the already powerful cleric more powerful - adding to his strengths.
Golaiths/Half-Giants/anything else with Powerful Build do not qualify as large. They can act in some ways as though they were one size category larger, but they cannot use their Powerful Build to qualify for Prestige Classes that have a size requirement of large (unless your DM rules otherwise).
Ok. Half-ogre, then. I should have looked at that...I knew there were limitations.
Wizard//Truenamer
Fighter // Monk
Druid // Monk
Get Zen Archery first thing, and you will only need a 13 in Dex to get the feats you need to enter Soulbow. Then dump everything else into Wis. 9th level powers + Wisdom x 2 to ranged attack and damage is just mean. Also, get practiced mindblade (from Dragon 341) to get an additional +1 to your soulbow.
Also, try Psion 20/Lurk 20 or Psion 20/Psychic Rogue 20. Both grant you great Int synergy for manifesting and better HD, BAB, and armor proficiency.
Rogue 20//Warlock 20
The feat from the PHBII allowed you to ready an action to make a ranged attack after a chosen ally attacked and struck a specific foe. The foe would then lose his Dex bonus to AC vs. your ranged attack.
Thus, every round merely ready an action to strick a foe with your eldritch blast. Assuming your party fighter can hit anything, you will be getting sneak attack every round. At 20th level that's 19d6 damage almost every round.
Druid 20//Rogue 19/Barbarian 1
Take the Snow Tiger Berserker feat, as well as the Neraph Charge feat (Planar HB) once you are able (perhaps one level of Wiz for the Know: the Planes class skill would be handy).
You can now pounce in all your animal forms, and every foe you charge (once per opponent per combat) is denied their Dex to AC, so you get sneak attack on every swipe in that full attack.
mnk/ranger for the dual weilding kama swinging warrior of doom with the most cherry picked skill list imaginable. Other highlight include adding favored enemy to ninety bazillion attacks...
barb/sorc A full spellcaster with D12s, all good saves and a nice skill list.
Bard/Ftr Full Bab, nice feets list, sing for +5 to hit and damage, arcane strike your bard spells for another +6 to hit and 6d4 on each attack. Powerattack away that aforementioned random +11 for a leap attack.
Here's an evil Charisma synergy monkey build I made some time ago:
1. Hexblade 1 // Paladin 1 --- Iron will, Spell focus (Evil)
2. Hexblade 2 // Paladin 2
3. Hexblade 3 // Fighter 1 --- [Feat], Power attack
4. Cleric 1 // Fighter 2 --- Cleave
5. Hexblade 4 // Bone knight 1
6. Human paragon 1 // Ur-priest 1 --- Battle caster
7. Human paragon 2 // Ur-priest 2 --- Divine might
8. Human paragon 3 // Bone knight 2
9. Hexblade 5 // Bone knight 3 --- [Feat]
10. Hexblade 6 // Bone knight 4
11. Hexblade 7 // Bone knight 5
12. Hexblade 8 // Bone knight 6 --- [Feat]
13. Hexblade 9 // Bone knight 7
14. Hexblade 10 // Bone knight 8
15. Hexblade 11 // Bone knight 9 --- Skill focus (Knowledge: Religion)
16. Hexblade 12 // Bone knight 10
17. Hexblade 13 // Divine oracle 1
18. Hexblade 14 // Divine oracle 2 --- Improved sunder
19. Hexblade 15 // Blackguard 1
20. Hexblade 16 // Blackguard 2
And here's another Charisma synergy monkey, though this one's exalted:
1. Feat Rogue 1 // Paladin 1 --- Able learner, Sacred vow, [Feat]
2. Bard 1 // Fighter 1 --- Power attack
3. Cobra strike Monk 1 // Ranger 1 --- Improved unarmed strike, Dodge, Track, Devoted performer
4. Cobra strike Monk 2 // Paladin 2 --- Mobility
5. Human paragon 1 // Paladin 3
6. Human paragon 2 // Paladin 4 --- Snowflake wardance, Vow of obedience
7. Human paragon 3 // Arcane duelist 1
8. Bard 2 // Arcane duelist 2
9. Bard 3 // Arcane duelist 3 --- Ascetic mage
10. Bard 4 // Fighter 2 --- ?
11. Bard 5 // Sublime chord 1
12. Bard 6 // Sublime chord 2 --- Arcane strike
13. Bard 7 // Harper paragon 1
14. Bard 8 // Harper paragon 2
15. Bard 9 // Harper paragon 3 --- Divine might
16. Bard 10 // Harper paragon 4
17. Bard 11 // Harper paragon 5
18. Bard 12 // Harper paragon 6 --- Favored power attack
20. Bard 14 // Harper paragon 7
19. Bard 13 // Harper paragon 8
Cheers :D
-J-
(Soulknife 10/SoulBow 10)/Totemist 20
Be a Kalashtar, and take the feat that lets you generate a mind shield, and don't be afraid to move all your dmg bonus to the shield, the VoP will give it back to the Soulknife/Bow; and Totemist can easily make up the deficencies of the VoP.
Would love to see full progessions done up for:
Fighter // Monk
Druid // Monk
Sure thing, after all since my halfling beguiler/warmage was PK'ed the fighter/monk is my replacement. His race is a Vanara (from Oriental Adventures) and uses the Decisive Strike variant from PHB2 rather than flurry of blows.
ftr1/monk1: Stunning Fist, intuitive attack, weapon focus (unarmed)
ftr2/mnk2: combat reflexes, power attack
ftr3/mnk3: flying kick
ftr4/mnk4: weapon spec (unarmed strike)
ftr5/mnk5:
ftr6/mnk6: combat expertise, hidden talent *, improved disarm
mnk7/Fist of Zuoken1:
mnk8: Fist of Zuoken2:
mnk9/Warmind1: dodge
mnk10/Warmind2:
mnk11/warmind3:
mnk12/warmind4: Karmic Strike
mnk13/warmind5:
mnk14/warmind6:
mnk15/warmind7: ability focus (stunning)
mnk16/warmind8:
ftr7/warmind9:
ftr8/warmind10: improved crit (unarmed strike) roundabout kick
ftr9/mnk18:
ftr10/mnk19: Rapid Stunning.
My DM replaced wild talent with hidden talent from page 88ish of the xpanded psionics handbook, so at level 6 I get a 1st level power of MY choice, I'll choose biofeedback. I avoided tripping and grappling because as a Monkey-boy I don't really have the strength for that (14), so I built a style around unarmed combat and counter-punching. 2 of his known powers are energy claw and psionic lions charge, combine decisive strike at the end of a psionic lions charge with all that energy damage and flying kick! Maybe later I'll build a 20 level progression for Divine Knife.
human expert4/warrior1/chameleon10/warrior2-6 // divine caster20
As a skeleton build you can choose more or less anything to do with this character.
You have 21 feats, 12 of which can be class features selected from a list. You have all the skills you want to choose as your skill list. You have +6 to 2stats of your choice. 20th level armoured casting from a combination of cleric, druid & wizard spell lists is icing.
i'd also like expert4/warrior1/chameleon10/warrior2-6 // incarnate20 though i doubt its legality...
human
expert5/stalker of kharash2/expert6-8/foe hunter10 // warrior20
Go the TWF tree including OTWF, pounce and rend, PA, favoured enemy,favoured PA, improved favoured enemy evil, leap attack & shocktrooper (all doable with 15th, 18th feats available aswell as 7 bonus feats). After you get favoured enemy evil use all your bonus feats for favoured enemy & granting FE evil a +2 bonus each time.
Favoured evil damage bonus=+18
With 7th level of foe hunter this is doubled to +36 damage/attack.
In addition you full attack charge with full PA (no attack penalty) for +80 damage/attack.
To really break this build 2* blessed keen valourus scimitars of hunting are necessary. 1/4 of your attacks threaten & auto confirm crits, your favoured enemy bonus is doubled (making the opriginal tripled for +54 per hit) and all the damage you do on a charge is doubled. Damage is over 2500/charge.
Except for the part where the DM kicks you in the face, because not only are "class-combining" PrCs banned from Gestalt, but you can only have one PrC at a time.
Sorry, cant beleieve i did that with the chameleon! Of all prestige classes i chose the one which combines most class abilities.....didnt use 2 prcs at once though?
As for the Chameleon... I dunno, I'd say the chameleon would be all right in Gestalt. It can only do one thing at once, after all, until you get the double focus--at which point it can do 2 things at once but not as well, which it can do in a regular game.
I can't believe no one has mentioned the oh so amazing Duskblade//Archivist combo (or then I just missed it)!
Here's an evil Charisma synergy monkey build I made some time ago:
1. Hexblade 1 // Paladin 1 --- Iron will, Spell focus (Evil)
2. Hexblade 2 // Paladin 2
3. Hexblade 3 // Fighter 1 --- [Feat], Power attack
4. Cleric 1 // Fighter 2 --- Cleave
5. Hexblade 4 // Bone knight 1
6. Human paragon 1 // Ur-priest 1 --- Battle caster
7. Human paragon 2 // Ur-priest 2 --- Divine might
8. Human paragon 3 // Bone knight 2
9. Hexblade 5 // Bone knight 3 --- [Feat]
10. Hexblade 6 // Bone knight 4
11. Hexblade 7 // Bone knight 5
12. Hexblade 8 // Bone knight 6 --- [Feat]
13. Hexblade 9 // Bone knight 7
14. Hexblade 10 // Bone knight 8
15. Hexblade 11 // Bone knight 9 --- Skill focus (Knowledge: Religion)
16. Hexblade 12 // Bone knight 10
17. Hexblade 13 // Divine oracle 1
18. Hexblade 14 // Divine oracle 2 --- Improved sunder
19. Hexblade 15 // Blackguard 1
20. Hexblade 16 // Blackguard 2
And here's another Charisma synergy monkey, though this one's exalted:
1. Feat Rogue 1 // Paladin 1 --- Able learner, Sacred vow, [Feat]
2. Bard 1 // Fighter 1 --- Power attack
3. Cobra strike Monk 1 // Ranger 1 --- Improved unarmed strike, Dodge, Track, Devoted performer
4. Cobra strike Monk 2 // Paladin 2 --- Mobility
5. Human paragon 1 // Paladin 3
6. Human paragon 2 // Paladin 4 --- Snowflake wardance, Vow of obedience
7. Human paragon 3 // Arcane duelist 1
8. Bard 2 // Arcane duelist 2
9. Bard 3 // Arcane duelist 3 --- Ascetic mage
10. Bard 4 // Fighter 2 --- ?
11. Bard 5 // Sublime chord 1
12. Bard 6 // Sublime chord 2 --- Arcane strike
13. Bard 7 // Harper paragon 1
14. Bard 8 // Harper paragon 2
15. Bard 9 // Harper paragon 3 --- Divine might
16. Bard 10 // Harper paragon 4
17. Bard 11 // Harper paragon 5
18. Bard 12 // Harper paragon 6 --- Favored power attack
20. Bard 14 // Harper paragon 7
19. Bard 13 // Harper paragon 8
Cheers :D
-J-
this can be done without gestaulting...
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=406013
How about:
human
expert5/stalker of kharash2/expert6-8/foe hunter10 // warrior20
Foe Hunter does not work with Favored Enemy (Evil). Evil is an alignment, not a race and you can not choose to focus on it because foe hunter specifically says race.
another interesting choice would be artificer//psionic artifcer.
Bard/Marshal again not an uber warrior build but can do decent damage while buffing the rest of the group to hell and back, without wasting too many precious actions. No MAD.
Warmage/Nomad get in, blow stuff up, get out, bring friends at higher levels. No MAD
Binder/Incarnate you can re-arrange your melds and vestiges every day to optomize the variation that is the primary sttrength of both classes. The best part is since most vestige bonuses are unamed the stack with the meld bonuses. Slight MAD
Totemist/Barbarian this concept was so cool they made a Prc for it so non gestalt could play it. A raging barbarian with totem avatar (shoulders) and three-fold mask of chimera (totem) means great pain for the poor schmucks who ****** him off. No MAD
Soulknife/Warlock hidious blow + Psychic strike + Greater Psionic weapon, show those paladins what a real smiting looks like. Slight MAD
but since they're back
1 Ranger1//Ardent1
2 Ranger2//Ardent2
3 Ranger2/Scout1//Ardent3
4 Ranger2/Scout2//Ardent4
5 Ranger2/Scout3//Ardent5
6 Ranger2/Scout4//Ardent5/Elocater1
7 Ranger2/Scout5//Ardent5/Elocater2
8 Ranger2/Scout6//Ardent5/Elocater3
9 Ranger2/Scout7//Ardent5/Elocator4
10 Ranger2/Scout8//Ardent5/Elocater5
11 Ranger2/Scout9//Ardent5/Elocater6
12 Ranger2/Scout10//Ardent5/Elocater7 *ding!*
13 Ranger2/Scout11//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker1
14 Ranger2/Scout12//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker2
15 Ranger2/Scout13//Ardent5/elocater7/Highland Stalker3
16 Ranger2/Scout14//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker4
17 Ranger2/Scout15//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker5
18 Ranger2/Scout16//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker6
19 Ranger2/Scout17//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker6/Tempest1
20 Ranger2/Scout18//Ardent5/Elocater7/Highland Stalker6/Tempest2
Picks up nicely at level 12. End result? 16 BaB, 7 attacks with the basic TwF feats, can move 10' and make a full attack every round doing +7d6 damage and gaining +6 AC.
The Elocator+Scout synergy is happily scary
Another similar approach would be toss in a couple of master thrower levels for double-throw, getting an absurd amount of thrown attacks with the same +7d6 damage on each attack
945 combinations!
Now this is using both the OA versions and Complete versions of the Samurai, Wu Jen, and Shugenja as well as the Shaman and Sohei from OA. The Ninja that has been previously discussed is NOT from OA, but from an L5R book. This number does not take into consideration alignment restrictions (i.e. Barbarian/Paladin) although I left it in, in light of the variant classes listed elsewhere in UA (i.e. CG Paladin variant). Even without OA classes, there are (this unbelievable and almost scary)
741 combinations
still available to make some awesome gestalt character to wreak havoc on your poor DM anywhere. And they are: (in alphabetical order)
Ardent/Barbarian, Ardent/Bard, Ardent/Beguiler, Ardent/Cleric, Ardent/Divine Mind, Ardent/Dragon Shaman, Ardent/Druid, Ardent/Duskblade, Ardent/Erudite, Ardent/Favored Soul, Ardent/Fighter, Ardent/Healer, Ardent/Hexblade, Ardent/Knight, Ardent/Lurk, Ardent/Marshal, Ardent/Monk, Ardent/Mystic, Ardent/Ninja, Ardent/Noble, Ardent/Paladin, Ardent/Psion, Ardent/Psychic Warrior, Ardent/Ranger, Ardent/Rogue, Ardent/Samurai, Ardent/Scout, Ardent/Shugenja, Ardent/Sorcerer, Ardent/Soulknife, Ardent/Spellthief, Ardent/Spirit Shaman, Ardent/Swashbuckler, Ardent/Warlock, Ardent/Warmage, Ardent/Wilder, Ardent/Wizard, Ardent/Wu Jen, Barbarian/Bard, Barbarian/Beguiler, Barbarian/Cleric, Barbarian/Divine Mind, Barbarian/Dragon Shaman, Barbarian/Druid, Barbarian/Duskblade, Barbarian/Erudite, Barbarian/Favored Soul, Barbarian/Fighter, Barbarian/Healer, Barbarian/Hexblade, Barbarian/Knight, Barbarian/Lurk, Barbarian/Marshal, Barbarian/Monk, Barbarian/Mystic, Barbarian/Ninja, Barbarian/Noble, Barbarian/Paladin, Barbarian/Psion, Barbarian/Psychic Warrior, Barbarian/Ranger, Barbarian/Rogue, Barbarian/Samurai, Barbarian/Scout, Barbarian/Shugenja, Barbarian/Sorcerer, Barbarian/Soulknife, Barbarian/Spellthief, Barbarian/Spirit Shaman, Barbarian/Swashbuckler, Barbarian/Warlock, Barbarian/Warmage, Barbarian/Wilder, Barbarian/Wizard, Barbarian/Wu Jen, Bard/Beguiler, Bard/Cleric, Bard/Divine Mind, Bard/Dragon Shaman, Bard/Druid, Bard/Duskblade, Bard/Erudite, Bard/Favored Soul, Bard/Fighter, Bard/Healer, Bard/Hexblade, Bard/Knight, Bard/Lurk, Bard/Marshal, Bard/Monk, Bard/Mystic, Bard/Ninja, Bard/Noble, Bard/Paladin, Bard/Psion, Bard/Psychic Warrior, Bard/Ranger, Bard/Rogue, Bard/Samurai, Bard/Scout, Bard/Shugenja, Bard/Sorcerer, Bard/Soulknife, Bard/Spellthief, Bard/Spirit Shaman, Bard/Swashbuckler, Bard/Warlock, Bard/Warmage, Bard/Wilder, Bard/Wizard, Bard/Wu Jen, Beguiler/Cleric, Beguiler/Divine Mind, Beguiler/Dragon Shaman, Beguiler/Druid, Beguiler/Duskblade, Beguiler/Erudite, Beguiler/Favored Soul, Beguiler/Fighter, Beguiler/Healer, Beguiler/Hexblade, Beguiler/Knight, Beguiler/Lurk, Beguiler/Marshal, Beguiler/Monk, Beguiler/Mystic, Beguiler/Ninja, Beguiler/Noble, Beguiler/Paladin, Beguiler/Psion, Beguiler/Psychic Warrior, Beguiler/Ranger, Beguiler/Rogue, Beguiler/Samurai, Beguiler/Scout, Beguiler/Shugenja, Beguiler/Sorcerer, Beguiler/Soulknife, Beguiler/Spellthief, Beguiler/Spirit Shaman, Beguiler/Swashbuckler, Beguiler/Warlock, Beguiler/Warmage, Beguiler/Wilder, Beguiler/Wizard, Beguiler/Wu Jen, Cleric/Divine Mind, Cleric/Dragon Shaman, Cleric/Druid, Cleric/Duskblade, Cleric/Erudite, Cleric/Favored Soul, Cleric/Fighter, Cleric/Healer, Cleric/Hexblade, Cleric/Knight, Cleric/Lurk, Cleric/Marshal, Cleric/Monk, Cleric/Mystic, Cleric/Ninja, Cleric/Noble, Cleric/Paladin, Cleric/Psion, Cleric/Psychic Warrior, Cleric/Ranger, Cleric/Rogue, Cleric/Samurai, Cleric/Scout, Cleric/Shugenja, Cleric/Sorcerer, Cleric/Soulknife, Cleric/Spellthief, Cleric/Spirit Shaman, Cleric/Swashbuckler, Cleric/Warlock, Cleric/Warmage, Cleric/Wilder, Cleric/Wizard, Cleric/Wu Jen, Divine Mind/Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind/Druid, Divine Mind/Duskblade, Divine Mind/Erudite, Divine Mind/Favored Soul, Divine Mind/Fighter, Divine Mind/Healer, Divine Mind/Hexblade, Divine Mind/Knight, Divine Mind/Lurk, Divine Mind/Marshal, Divine Mind/Monk, Divine Mind/Mystic, Divine Mind/Ninja, Divine Mind/Noble, Divine Mind/Paladin, Divine Mind/Psion, Divine Mind/Psychic Warrior, Divine Mind/Ranger, Divine Mind/Rogue, Divine Mind/Samurai, Divine Mind/Scout, Divine Mind/Shugenja, Divine Mind/Sorcerer, Divine Mind/Soulknife, Divine Mind/Spellthief, Divine Mind/Spirit Shaman, Divine Mind/Swashbuckler, Divine Mind/Warlock, Divine Mind/Warmage, Divine Mind/Wilder, Divine Mind/Wizard, Divine Mind/Wu Jen, Dragon Shaman/Druid, Dragon Shaman/Duskblade, Dragon Shaman/Erudite, Dragon Shaman/Favored Soul, Dragon Shaman/Fighter, Dragon Shaman/Healer, Dragon Shaman/Hexblade, Dragon Shaman/Knight, Dragon Shaman/Lurk, Dragon Shaman/Marshal, Dragon Shaman/Monk, Dragon Shaman/Mystic, Dragon Shaman/Ninja, Dragon Shaman/Noble, Dragon Shaman/Paladin, Dragon Shaman/Psion, Dragon Shaman/Psychic Warrior, Dragon Shaman/Ranger, Dragon Shaman/Rogue, Dragon Shaman/Samurai, Dragon Shaman/Scout, Dragon Shaman/Shugenja, Dragon Shaman/Sorcerer, Dragon Shaman/Soulknife, Dragon Shaman/Spellthief, Dragon Shaman/Spirit Shaman, Dragon Shaman/Swashbuckler, Dragon Shaman/Warlock, Dragon Shaman/Warmage, Dragon Shaman/Wilder, Dragon Shaman/Wizard, Dragon Shaman/Wu Jen, Druid/Duskblade, Druid/Erudite, Druid/Favored Soul, Druid/Fighter, Druid/Healer, Druid/Hexblade, Druid/Knight, Druid/Lurk, Druid/Marshal, Druid/Monk, Druid/Mystic, Druid/Ninja, Druid/Noble, Druid/Paladin, Druid/Psion, Druid/Psychic Warrior, Druid/Ranger, Druid/Rogue, Druid/Samurai, Druid/Scout, Druid/Shugenja, Druid/Sorcerer, Druid/Soulknife, Druid/Spellthief, Druid/Spirit Shaman, Druid/Swashbuckler, Druid/Warlock, Druid/Warmage, Druid/Wilder, Druid/Wizard, Druid/Wu Jen, Duskblade/Erudite, Duskblade/Favored Soul, Duskblade/Fighter, Duskblade/Healer, Duskblade/Hexblade, Duskblade/Knight, Duskblade/Lurk, Duskblade/Marshal, Duskblade/Monk, Duskblade/Mystic, Duskblade/Ninja, Duskblade/Noble, Duskblade/Paladin, Duskblade/Psion, Duskblade/Psychic Warrior, Duskblade/Ranger, Duskblade/Rogue, Duskblade/Samurai, Duskblade/Scout, Duskblade/Shugenja, Duskblade/Sorcerer, Duskblade/Soulknife, Duskblade/Spellthief, Duskblade/Spirit Shaman, Duskblade/Swashbuckler, Duskblade/Warlock, Duskblade/Warmage, Duskblade/Wilder, Duskblade/Wizard, Duskblade/Wu Jen, Erudite/Favored Soul, Erudite/Fighter, Erudite/Healer, Erudite/Hexblade, Erudite/Knight, Erudite/Lurk, Erudite/Marshal, Erudite/Monk, Erudite/Mystic, Erudite/Ninja, Erudite/Noble, Erudite/Paladin, Erudite/Psion, Erudite/Psychic Warrior, Erudite/Ranger, Erudite/Rogue, Erudite/Samurai, Erudite/Scout, Erudite/Shugenja, Erudite/Sorcerer, Erudite/Soulknife, Erudite/Spellthief, Erudite/Spirit Shaman, Erudite/Swashbuckler, Erudite/Warlock, Erudite/Warmage, Erudite/Wilder, Erudite/Wizard, Erudite/Wu Jen, Favored Soul/Fighter, Favored Soul/Healer, Favored Soul/Hexblade, Favored Soul/Knight, Favored Soul/Lurk, Favored Soul/Marshal, Favored Soul/Monk, Favored Soul/Mystic, Favored Soul/Ninja, Favored Soul/Noble, Favored Soul/Paladin, Favored Soul/Psion, Favored Soul/Psychic Warrior, Favored Soul/Ranger, Favored Soul/Rogue, Favored Soul/Samurai, Favored Soul/Scout, Favored Soul/Shugenja, Favored Soul/Sorcerer, Favored Soul/Soulknife, Favored Soul/Spellthief, Favored Soul/Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul/Swashbuckler, Favored Soul/Warlock, Favored Soul/Warmage, Favored Soul/Wilder, Favored Soul/Wizard, Favored Soul/Wu Jen, Fighter/Healer, Fighter/Hexblade, Fighter/Knight, Fighter/Lurk, Fighter/Marshal, Fighter/Monk, Fighter/Mystic, Fighter/Ninja, Fighter/Noble, Fighter/Paladin, Fighter/Psion, Fighter/Psychic Warrior, Fighter/Ranger, Fighter/Rogue, Fighter/Samurai, Fighter/Scout, Fighter/Shugenja, Fighter/Sorcerer, Fighter/Soulknife, Fighter/Spellthief, Fighter/Spirit Shaman, Fighter/Swashbuckler, Fighter/Warlock, Fighter/Warmage, Fighter/Wilder, Fighter/Wizard, Fighter/Wu Jen, Healer/Hexblade, Healer/Knight, Healer/Lurk, Healer/Marshal, Healer/Monk, Healer/Mystic, Healer/Ninja, Healer/Noble, Healer/Paladin, Healer/Psion, Healer/Psychic Warrior, Healer/Ranger, Healer/Rogue, Healer/Samurai, Healer/Scout, Healer/Shugenja, Healer/Sorcerer, Healer/Soulknife, Healer/Spellthief, Healer/Spirit Shaman, Healer/Swashbuckler, Healer/Warlock, Healer/Warmage, Healer/Wilder, Healer/Wizard, Healer/Wu Jen, Hexblade/Knight, Hexblade/Lurk, Hexblade/Marshal, Hexblade/Monk, Hexblade/Mystic, Hexblade/Ninja, Hexblade/Noble, Hexblade/Paladin, Hexblade/Psion, Hexblade/Psychic Warrior, Hexblade/Ranger, Hexblade/Rogue, Hexblade/Samurai, Hexblade/Scout, Hexblade/Shugenja, Hexblade/Sorcerer, Hexblade/Soulknife, Hexblade/Spellthief, Hexblade/Spirit Shaman, Hexblade/Swashbuckler, Hexblade/Warlock, Hexblade/Warmage, Hexblade/Wilder, Hexblade/Wizard, Hexblade/Wu Jen, Knight/Lurk, Knight/Marshal, Knight/Monk, Knight/Mystic, Knight/Ninja, Knight/Noble, Knight/Paladin, Knight/Psion, Knight/Psychic Warrior, Knight/Ranger, Knight/Rogue, Knight/Samurai, Knight/Scout, Knight/Shugenja, Knight/Sorcerer, Knight/Soulknife, Knight/Spellthief, Knight/Spirit Shaman, Knight/Swashbuckler, Knight/Warlock, Knight/Warmage, Knight/Wilder, Knight/Wizard, Knight/Wu Jen, Lurk/Marshal, Lurk/Monk, Lurk/Mystic, Lurk/Ninja, Lurk/Noble, Lurk/Paladin, Lurk/Psion, Lurk/Psychic Warrior, Lurk/Ranger, Lurk/Rogue, Lurk/Samurai, Lurk/Scout, Lurk/Shugenja, Lurk/Sorcerer, Lurk/Soulknife, Lurk/Spellthief, Lurk/Spirit Shaman, Lurk/Swashbuckler, Lurk/Warlock, Lurk/Warmage, Lurk/Wilder, Lurk/Wizard, Lurk/Wu Jen, Marshal/Monk, Marshal/Mystic, Marshal/Ninja, Marshal/Noble, Marshal/Paladin, Marshal/Psion, Marshal/Psychic Warrior, Marshal/Ranger, Marshal/Rogue, Marshal/Samurai, Marshal/Scout, Marshal/Shugenja, Marshal/Sorcerer, Marshal/Soulknife, Marshal/Spellthief, Marshal/Spirit Shaman, Marshal/Swashbuckler, Marshal/Warlock, Marshal/Warmage, Marshal/Wilder, Marshal/Wizard, Marshal/Wu Jen, Monk/Mystic, Monk/Ninja, Monk/Noble, Monk/Paladin, Monk/Psion, Monk/Psychic Warrior, Monk/Ranger, Monk/Rogue, Monk/Samurai, Monk/Scout, Monk/Shugenja, Monk/Sorcerer, Monk/Soulknife, Monk/Spellthief, Monk/Spirit Shaman, Monk/Swashbuckler, Monk/Warlock, Monk/Warmage, Monk/Wilder, Monk/Wizard, Monk/Wu Jen, Mystic/Ninja, Mystic/Noble, Mystic/Paladin, Mystic/Psion, Mystic/Psychic Warrior, Mystic/Ranger, Mystic/Rogue, Mystic/Samurai, Mystic/Scout, Mystic/Shugenja, Mystic/Sorcerer, Mystic/Soulknife, Mystic/Spellthief, Mystic/Spirit Shaman, Mystic/Swashbuckler, Mystic/Warlock, Mystic/Warmage, Mystic/Wilder, Mystic/Wizard, Mystic/Wu Jen, Ninja/Noble, Ninja/Paladin, Ninja/Psion, Ninja/Psychic Warrior, Ninja/Ranger, Ninja/Rogue, Ninja/Samurai, Ninja/Scout, Ninja/Shugenja, Ninja/Sorcerer, Ninja/Soulknife, Ninja/Spellthief, Ninja/Spirit Shaman, Ninja/Swashbuckler, Ninja/Warlock, Ninja/Warmage, Ninja/Wilder, Ninja/Wizard, Ninja/Wu Jen, Noble/Paladin, Noble/Psion, Noble/Psychic Warrior, Noble/Ranger, Noble/Rogue, Noble/Samurai, Noble/Scout, Noble/Shugenja, Noble/Sorcerer, Noble/Soulknife, Noble/Spellthief, Noble/Spirit Shaman, Noble/Swashbuckler, Noble/Warlock, Noble/Warmage, Noble/Wilder, Noble/Wizard, Noble/Wu Jen, Paladin/Psion, Paladin/Psychic Warrior, Paladin/Ranger, Paladin/Rogue, Paladin/Samurai, Paladin/Scout, Paladin/Shugenja,, Paladin/Sorcerer, Paladin/Soulknife, Paladin/Spellthief, Paladin/Spirit Shaman, Paladin/Swashbuckler, Paladin/Warlock, Paladin/Warmage, Paladin/Wilder, Paladin/Wizard, Paladin/Wu Jen, Psion/Psychic Warrior, Psion/Ranger, Psion/Rogue, Psion/Samurai, Psion/Scout, Psion/Shugenja, Psion/Sorcerer, Psion/Soulknife, Psion/Spellthief, Psion/Spirit Shaman, Psion/Swashbuckler, Psion/Warlock, Psion/Warmage, Psion/Wilder, Psion/Wizard, Psion/Wu Jen, Psychic Warrior/Ranger, Psychic Warrior/Rogue, Psychic Warrior/Samurai, Psychic Warrior/Scout, Psychic Warrior/Shugenja, Psychic Warrior/Sorcerer, Psychic Warrior/Soulknife, Psychic Warrior/Spellthief, Psychic Warrior/Spirit Shaman, Psychic Warrior/Swashbuckler, Psychic Warrior/Warlock, Psychic Warrior/Warmage, Psychic Warrior/Wilder, Psychic Warrior/Wizard, Psychic Warrior/Wu Jen, Ranger/Rogue, Ranger/Samurai, Ranger/Scout, Ranger/Shugenja, Ranger/Sorcerer, Ranger/Soulknife, Ranger/Spellthief, Ranger/Spirit Shaman, Ranger/Swashbuckler, Ranger/Warlock, Ranger/Warmage, Ranger/Wilder, Ranger/Wizard, Ranger/Wu Jen, Rogue/Samurai, Rogue/Scout, Rogue/Shugenja, Rogue/Sorcerer, Rogue/Soulknife, Rogue/Spellthief, Rogue/Spirit Shaman, Rogue/Swashbuckler, Rogue/Warlock, Rogue/Warmage, Rogue/Wilder, Rogue/Wizard, Rogue/Wu Jen, Samurai/Scout, Samurai/Shugenja, Samurai/Sorcerer, Samurai/Soulknife, Samurai/Spellthief, Samurai/Spirit Shaman, Samurai/Swashbuckler, Samurai/Warlock, Samurai/Warmage, Samurai/Wilder, Samurai/Wizard, Samurai/Wu Jen, Scout/Shugenja, Scout/Sorcerer, Scout/Soulknife, Scout/Spellthief, Scout/Spirit Shaman, Scout/Swashbuckler, Scout/Warlock, Scout/Warmage, Scout/Wilder, Scout/Wizard, Scout/Wu Jen, Shugenja/Sorcerer, Shugenja/Soulknife, Shugenja/Spellthief, Shugenja/Spirit Shaman, Shugenja/Swashbuckler, Shugenja/Warlock, Shugenja/Warmage, Shugenja/Wilder, Shugenja/Wizard, Shugenja/Wu Jen, Sorcerer/Soulknife, Sorcerer/Spellthief, Sorcerer/Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer/Swashbuckler, Sorcerer/Warlock, Sorcerer/Warmage, Sorcerer/Wilder, Sorcerer/Wizard, Sorcerer/Wu Jen, Soulknife/Spellthief, Soulknife/Spirit Shaman, Soulknife/Swashbuckler, Soulknife/Warlock, Soulknife/Warmage, Soulknife/Wilder, Soulknife/Wizard, Soulknife/Wu Jen, Spellthief/Spirit Shaman, Spellthief/Swashbuckler, Spellthief/Warlock, Spellthief/Warmage, Spellthief/Wilder, Spellthief/Wizard, Spellthief/Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman/Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman/Warlock, Spirit Shaman/Warmage, Spirit Shaman/Wilder, Spirit Shaman/Wizard, Spirit Shaman/Wu Jen, Swashbuckler/Warlock, Swashbuckler/Warmage, Swashbuckler/Wilder, Swashbuckler/Wizard, Swashbuckler/Wu Jen, Warlock/Warmage, Warlock/Wilder, Warlock/Wizard, Warlock/Wu Jen, Warmage/Wilder, Warmage/Wizard, Warmage/Wu Jen, Wilder/Wizard, Wilder/Wu Jen, Wizard/Wu Jen
Fighter/Psion: with that wonderful little line "Armor does not, however, interfere with the manifestation of powers." you can have you fighter out there bashing heads near and far before he even has to lift a weapon.
Rogue/Urban Ranger: a great hitman for any campaign. Oodles of role-playing fodder with this guy.
And my persoanl favorite of all time...
Bard/Paladin(CG variant): great HD/HP, great BAB, great saves, loads of skills, and everything works off of Charisma. This one shines like no other.
Bard 4/anima mage 3/sublime chord 2/anima mage 10/fatespinner 4//Binder 1/CG Paladin 2/Wilder 17
Or:
(Illumian)
wizard 1/anima mage 6/master transmogrifist 10/anima mage 9//binder 1/wizard 4/(psion or archivist) 15
(built so 20th Level wizard)
I like:
Bard 4/anima mage 3/sublime chord 2/anima mage 10/fatespinner 4//Binder 1/CG Paladin 2/Wilder 17
Or:
(Illumian)
wizard 1/anima mage 6/master transmogrifist 10/anima mage 9//binder 1/wizard 4/(psion or archivist) 15
(built so 20th Level wizard)
If you want a level-20 Wizard, make a level-20 Wizard instead of all that rigormarole?
If you want a level-20 Wizard, make a level-20 Wizard instead of all that rigormarole?
mostly for the master transmogrifist class abilities w/ full caster progression, but also for 3 free metamagics a day and 13th level soul binding
This will give you Bladewind with Full Attack Channel or Knife to the Soul with channeled Touch of Idiocy which you should use a Sudden Maximize on that as well for 2 points Cha,Int and Wis damage and 6 points of Cha, Int and Wis penalty each. for a drop of 8 in each score. You could also choose to drop all in one for a -12 drop.
Warlock20 / Soulknife 15/ Illumine Soul 5 you can Hideous blow a Maximized Eldritch Blast for 9d6, Greater Psionic Weapon for 4d6, Psychic Strike for 6d8 plus your +5 mindblade for another 1d8 so thats 9d6(maximized for 54) +4d6 +7d8+5 and go ahead and quicken an empowered,Maximized Eldritch blast again for 54 + 9d6x.5
Duskblade20/ Warklock10 /Eldritch Master 10 With the Eldritch Master PrC you gain craploads of bonus spells 10 1st, 8 2nd, 8 3rd, 8 4th, and 4 5th level spells. at levels 4 and 8 you can pick two other class lists to take spells from. and levels 3, 6 and 9 you gain spell boost which when taken at the right levels can gain you 6th or 7th level spells. and 3 metamagic feats.
You can probably optimize this better without having the Warlock in there but thought the added innocations like See the Unseen, Dark Ones Luck, Fell Flight would help out a bit.
Maybe on a charge attack you could Channel, Quick Cast, Swift action spell and Hideous Blow up to a 7th level spell.
Might even be better if you switch out the Warlock for Soulknife 9/Illumine 1 for the greater psionic weapon and psychic strike for 4d6 + 3d8.
And prestige are still suggested against, I still wanna see what other 2 classes combine well with each other. I like the "soulock" though, getting added to the list.
Anyway, if you happen to have the book I'm pretty sure it's much more handy than the Expert, and as a bonus it lacks the stigma of being in the DMG--it's a PC class all the way, baby!
Edit: Oh, and Bardic Lore, too.
You guys do know you cannot gestalt 2 PrC at once, do ya?
And prestige are still suggested against, I still wanna see what other 2 classes combine well with each other. I like the "soulock" though, getting added to the list.
Nope, I must admit I never looked that close. I'd never let anyone do it, as a rule, though I can see designing a game around it totally...so I skimmed through. My bad.
See Order of the Stick: Miko. One annoying "champion of honor."
Similarly, Monk/Ranger. WIS is important for spells and AC. And since the ranger is supposed to be a stealthy, lightly-armored combatant, monk synergizes quite well. Two-weapon fighting to be able to use pairs of kata weapons. Because who ever heard of fighting with one sai? Speaking of which, there's a style (or is it tactical?) feat for fighting with two sais. For a variation, use the Hunting Monk variant. Trade in the monk's decreased falling damage for more favored enemies. You'll collect so many bonuses, the question will be: what can the DM throw at me that I won't have this advantage against?
In general: Monk + WIS based caster (especially partial caster melee type).
How about Monk/Paladin? MAD, but actually no more so than a regular Paladin. Cha for Paladin saves, Wis for Paladin Spells AND Monk AC bonus, Dex to not get hit (slightly more important than a regular Paladin), Str to attack. A monk with Full BAB. Bless Weapon your fists!
See Order of the Stick: Miko. One annoying "champion of honor."
Similarly, Monk/Ranger. WIS is important for spells and AC. And since the ranger is supposed to be a stealthy, lightly-armored combatant, monk synergizes quite well. Two-weapon fighting to be able to use pairs of kata weapons. Because who ever heard of fighting with one sai? Speaking of which, there's a style (or is it tactical?) feat for fighting with two sais. For a variation, use the Hunting Monk variant. Trade in the monk's decreased falling damage for more favored enemies. You'll collect so many bonuses, the question will be: what can the DM throw at me that I won't have this advantage against?
In general: Monk + WIS based caster (especially partial caster melee type).
Monks gain no benefit from charisma, the "Monkadin" is incredibly MAD since paladin spells are supposed to be a nice little add-on not like the psychic warrior powers or hexblade spells.
A two-weapon fighting ranger can get 7 attacks, 3 of them add half his strength. A flurry monk gets 6 attacks all at 2d10+ ful strength, how does ranger give anything other then spells and tracking?
Monks gain no benefit from charisma, the "Monkadin" is incredibly MAD since paladin spells are supposed to be a nice little add-on not like the psychic warrior powers or hexblade spells.
A two-weapon fighting ranger can get 7 attacks, 3 of them add half his strength. A flurry monk gets 6 attacks all at 2d10+ ful strength, how does ranger give anything other then spells and tracking?
I know the monk gains no benefit from CHA, and I don't think I said they did. If it came across so, I just failed to express myself. Still, a Paladin requires CHA, WIS, STR, DEX. A monk requires WIS, STR, DEX. Gestalting the two does not add anything the Paladin does not already find useful. Though you are right that WIS was not as important in pure paladin form.
As for monk/ranger, there may be times you want to flurry with weapons other than unarmed strike (DR slashing may warrant using two kamas. Or you may want to be able to wield two sais to use a feat allowing you to pin an enemy's weapon). Ranger makes that better with two-weapon fighting. Also, monk and ranger are both swift melee types with low armor potential. They gain different abilities to reach the same overall combat goal, so theoretically gestalt should be good for them.
Or there's a few less common ranger combat styles: throwing, bear-wrestling, strong arm. They may be useful.
Besides, if you're a ranger, might you ever find yourself running in the trees? If you fall, monk lessens damage.
It's just another way of getting a full BAB monk.
Another possibility:
Swashbuckler/Warmage. By 3rd level you're adding INT to melee damage AND spell damage. Full BAB means there's little question about whether your rays will hit. Otherwise, it's a standard gish, but maybe better than fighter/wizard. Most of all, it's flavorful. Suddenly a person crashes through a window, flings a fireball, swings down from the chandelier, draws a rapier, and enters battle. He'd do Raz proud.
NOTE: Raz the Rogue Mage is the PC played by board member Rickiel. See The Best Lines Ever of What's a Player to Do?
I think that this is a bit muddled, but I'm not sure how to make it better. If there was a good dip to improve his charging then I could see changing it to
Barbarian 10/Warhulk 10//Centaur 6/ XXX 3/ Monk 11. Of course that doesn't grant SR, which is why I went with the Hulking Hurler.
I was originally thinking something like
Barbarian 5/XXX 5/ Warhulk 10//Half-Ogre 2/Fighter 2/Monk 16
or
Barbarian 10/Warhulk 10//Half-Ogre 2/ XXX 7/Monk 11
Trying to get good saves at the same time as maximising str. All of this is of course hypothetical since you aren't supposed to play ECL > 0 races.
Let me know how to improve this character.
Human
Paladin 2/Dragonshaman (Gold) 18//Marshall 20
(32 point buy)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 16
Duskblade 13/??? // Monk 1/Wiz 4/Enlightened Fist 7/???
What you stick in the ???s I'm not sure, but the fist at 7 can turn a ray into a touch spell... and the duskblade at 13 can full attack + cast and apply a touch spell to each critter he can hit with that full attack. Slap on a bit of enlarge and a whip or chain and you have something that's probably a stupid world of pain.
Polar Ray on up to 4 targets in a round? Plus weapon damage? Yikes. Disintegrate? Ouchie.
The only tricky bit is crossing the fist's ability to the duskblade spells. Of course, if your DM didn't like that you could always apply the fist to the duskblade (drop wiz at all, probably replace with... swash for int to damage? I dunno). Sure, the double'd +1 casting levels would be a waste, but given some of the ray spells out there I'm not clear it wouldn't be worth it.
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Fighter
Ranger/Fighter
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Full BAB Can Power Attack adding 4 to damage for every 1 subtracted BAB with both ends of a weapon that does 1d6+1 1/2 str/ crit 18-20/x2 and some other nice things.
If you are playing eberron here is one
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Barbarian
Ranger/Fighter
Ranger/Fighter
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Barbarian/Reverent Blade
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Ranger/Frenzy Berserker
Full BAB Can Power Attack adding 4 to damage for every 1 subtracted BAB with both ends of a weapon that does 1d6+1 1/2 str/ crit 18-20/x2 and some other nice things.
Toss in a level of Exotic Weapon Master to add twice your strength for each side of your weapon with Uncanny Blow. Speaking of which, what book is Reverent Blade from?
Fighter 20// martial rogue variant for a fighter feat every level. Sure you have no SA, but think of how much you'll annoy other rogues who try to flank the armored guy.
If you read the listing for Feat Rogue variant, it says it loses Sneak Attack and gains Fighter Feats as a Fighter. So, you'd only gain the other Rogue abilities and skills, but not the Fighter Feats when you would normally gain a Sneak Attack. You don't gain the Fighter feats when you would gain Sneak Attack. If that were the case, it would have said to replace Sneak Attack with Fighter Feats. If you really wanted this, you could take a level of Scout at 1st-level and then finish out with Feat Rogue and get a Fighter bonus feat every level.
with a charisma of 18+16(succubus)+5(levels)+5(tome)+6(cloak)= 50
from the necro levels you can control 32 HD of undead
from dread necro levels you can control 480 HD
thats 512 HD of undead at ur fingertips, now if only i could find a conveniently placed elephant graveyard nearby... hmmmm...
and in addition, thanks to your amazing charisma, you can also pull of some divine metamagic stuff (the dread necro gets rebuke)
how bout an amazing undead controller: succubus 12/variant necromancer(UA) 8// dread necromancer 20
with a charisma of 18+16(succubus)+5(levels)+5(tome)+6(cloak)= 50
from the necro levels you can control 32 HD of undead
from dread necro levels you can control 480 HD
thats 512 HD of undead at ur fingertips, now if only i could find a conveniently placed elephant graveyard nearby... hmmmm...
and in addition, thanks to your amazing charisma, you can also pull of some divine metamagic stuff (the dread necro gets rebuke)
Dread Necromancer? Where is this from?
A succubus that hot with that much necropower reminds me of Morrigan Aensland from darkstalkers.
Druid 20//Monk 2/Incarnate2/Ardent 16
would be powerful, versitile, and capable of operating buck naked pretty effectively
Monk 2/Incarnate 18//Psion 20 would be also versitile with Carmandine Monk from Champions of Valor again capable of operating buck naked.
Soulborn 20//Monk 20 Full BAB with added feats and soulmelds to a monk base.
Erudite 20//Any Manifesting Class 20 would be awesome for powerpoints and versitility.
Beigeiller 20//Rogue 20
Killer Gnome either casting or melee//rogue 20 or ranger 20 (for hide in plain sight)
Dread Necromancer? Where is this from?
A succubus that hot with that much necropower reminds me of Morrigan Aensland from darkstalkers.
its a base class from heroes of horror. its a rather amazing class, with a damaging touch, arcane caster progression up to full 9th level spells, albeit a smaller list, but the ability my build relies on is the fact that they can control up to 4+cha mod HD of undead per level. well, the rebuke undead which allows for some divine metamagic cheese doesnt hurt either
the duskblade/cleric, with the feat True Believer (Hextor) and the relic Gauntlets of the bloodlord can be really devastating. +4 on all touch attacks, and all touch spells become maximized, that can really pack a punch, especially after adding arcane strike or razing strike, or both...
You know that when using a touch spell through the duskblade's arcane channeling ability, they are melee attacks, and not melee touch attacks, right?
I'm surprised it hasn't been said yet... but Rogue/monk seems to be an interesting niche. With FoB for more attacks, and Stunning fist on the first attack, you can make it quite likely that you'll sneak attack most of the time, because stunning makes the target lose it's dex bonus to AC, and takes a further -2 to penalty on AC, the iterative attacks even have a greater chance of hitting. Of course, the same thing could be accomplished with the fighter/rogue combo, and use the fighter for higher BAB and feats for stunning first.
You know that when using a touch spell through the duskblade's arcane channeling ability, they are melee attacks, and not melee touch attacks, right?
I'm surprised it hasn't been said yet... but Rogue/monk seems to be an interesting niche. With FoB for more attacks, and Stunning fist on the first attack, you can make it quite likely that you'll sneak attack most of the time, because stunning makes the target lose it's dex bonus to AC, and takes a further -2 to penalty on AC, the iterative attacks even have a greater chance of hitting. Of course, the same thing could be accomplished with the fighter/rogue combo, and use the fighter for higher BAB and feats for stunning first.
I prefer monk/Complete Adventurer ninja for wisdom synergy, getting on the list.
Monk 2/Incarnate 18//Psion 20 would be also versitile with Carmandine Monk from Champions of Valor again capable of operating buck naked.
I see this Carmandine Monk being spoken of often on my Gestalt Resource, combined with swashbuckler it can annoy tanks and even mages. Is it a sub level, feat, what exactly is it? And what does it replace wis with int for really, just AC or all monk stuff including Stunning DC?
I prefer monk/Complete Adventurer ninja for wisdom synergy, getting on the list.
Ah... I don't actually look at WotC released asian-style classes for the most part because I've been dissapointed before so I missed that one
I see this Carmandine Monk being spoken of often on my Gestalt Resource, combined with swashbuckler it can annoy tanks and even mages. Is it a sub level, feat, what exactly is it? And what does it replace wis with int for really, just AC or all monk stuff including Stunning DC?
It's a feat. There's also an identical feat called Kung Fu Genius. It replaces wisdom with INT for all monk uses. ALL. Monk/Archivist/Sacred Fist//Swash/Wizard or Psion
Ah... I don't actually look at WotC released asian-style classes for the most part because I've been dissapointed before so I missed that one
I like the 4 complete asians (sounds like an action movie). If you miss the Oriental Adventures samurai I dont think many DMs would object to giving the complete warrior samurai Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill. The only thing the 4 complete asians are missing are PHB2-style sub levels (might make a thread for those in the classes forum).
It's a feat. There's also an identical feat called Kung Fu Genius. It replaces wisdom with INT for all monk uses. ALL. Monk/Archivist/Sacred Fist//Swash/Wizard or Psion
Kick ass! What book is Kung Fu Genius from cuz I don't have it and I think I should?
Kick ass! What book is Kung Fu Genius from cuz I don't have it and I think I should?
Kung Fu Genius is from a Dragon Magazine issue #319.
they make viable characters. Unarmed Frontline Troop that can move around the battlefield on a horse or on foot. Has many minor healing abilities through spells and class abilities. I would say these guys make the good evil mage slayers. SR, High Saves, lots of attacks with smite at full attack bonus. that is without feat combos or nifty tricks.
for another build based on a theme. I present the base stripped down version of THE SKILLMONKEY
Changeling Feat Rogue 20//Incarnate 20
with the changling rogue sublevel that gets 10 skill points per level combined with the skill versitility of the Incarnate and you are golden. now this build does not do combat well it is made for skills. I am also sure that it could be made better with proper feat selection and presitege class selection.
I still want to see the progression for the Paladin/Soulknife, if possible. Thanks.
He was a human paladin9/exotic weapon master1/War Mind10//soulknife20, this gives his mindblade full power without a single wasted class feature, slight manifesting which synergizes with the mindblade, all good saves + divine grace. I havent thought of all his feats yet, but definitely brutal throw, exotic weapon prof (bastard sword) to qualify for exotic weapon master, Mind Strike, Swift, those Complete Psionics feats that let you recharge your psychic strike when you drop a foe, the Divine Feat from Complete Warrior that add cha to damage for 1 round and practised manifester.
a Monkadin as you call it or a Monk Paladin with Serenity now has the same attribute problems as a regular monk. Charisma and Int are now the normal dump stats. Monks need good Str, Dex, Con, Wis (not necessarily in that order). Monk/Paladins need good Str, Dex, Con, Wis (not necessarily in that order)
they make viable characters. Unarmed Frontline Troop that can move around the battlefield on a horse or on foot. Has many minor healing abilities through spells and class abilities. I would say these guys make the good evil mage slayers. SR, High Saves, lots of attacks with smite at full attack bonus. that is without feat combos or nifty tricks.
I assume Serenity replaces charisma with wisdom for Divine Grace, right? What book is it from? A monk using the charging smite PHB2 variant smiting evil on a charge with Flying Kick and Meteoric Strike would be painful. It would get even crazier with blackguard levels. "Use poison? I AM poison!"
Cleric/Druid isn't up there, but I think it should be. With all the straight Cleric and straight Druid combos out there, I'm sure someone could combine those.
Cleric/Druid isn't up there, but I think it should be. With all the straight Cleric and straight Druid combos out there, I'm sure someone could combine those.
Sure, have Obad-hai as your deity and take Earth and Fire domains and you get to Turn Undead as well as Air and Water Elementals in addition to Rebuking Earth and Fire Elementals. Add in Spontaneous Cures and Summon Nature's Ally and TWO, count them 1 - 2, Spell progressions. Take Zen Archery and Divine Feats to flavor and this is one mean, green eco-machine to reckon with. And best of all, you don't need to take any other classes to make this cool/viscious/nasty/bad to the bone/etc/etc.
1) Artificers are practically game-breakers in themselves. Staff/wand metamagic cheese, cheap item creation, spells from any spell list in the game, trapfinding, good skills... what's not to love?
2) Medium BAB and d6 HD on top of casters' touch attack spells
3) Lots of bonus metamagic feats from artificer to help out the caster side, particularly cool for spont casters.
4) If sorcerer, or some other large spell list, limited spells known caster side: Use the caster level from your caster "side" to raise the CL for staves drawn from your entire sorcerer spell list, made on the cheap by your artificer "side"
Why stick with one action per round when you can have two?
Use the Control body/Solicit Psicrystal combo:
Manifest Control Body, then the next round, the swift power Solicit Psicrystal. Now you have INT to Attacks, Damage and AC, PLUS you are free to manifest other powers while your body is engaged in melee. Very handy in a normal build, but even better here because you have the abilities of your other set of classes too.
One particularly interesting synergy is artificer combined with any "real" casting class, particularly warmage, sorcerer, or anything with incantrix.
1) Artificers are practically game-breakers in themselves. Staff/wand metamagic cheese, cheap item creation, spells from any spell list in the game, trapfinding, good skills... what's not to love?
2) Medium BAB and d6 HD on top of casters' touch attack spells
3) Lots of bonus metamagic feats from artificer to help out the caster side, particularly cool for spont casters.
4) If sorcerer, or some other large spell list, limited spells known caster side: Use the caster level from your caster "side" to raise the CL for staves drawn from your entire sorcerer spell list, made on the cheap by your artificer "side"
I dont know much about the usefulness of an Artificer, but this might be a good combo in a low-GP setting. I might add artificer/caster to the list if you can find a mate for artificer that helps it do what it does (which is everything as far as Im told) better.
Psion (Kineticist) //xxx.
Why stick with one action per round when you can have two?
Use the Control body/Solicit Psicrystal combo:
Manifest Control Body, then the next round, the swift power Solicit Psicrystal. Now you have INT to Attacks, Damage and AC, PLUS you are free to manifest other powers while your body is engaged in melee. Very handy in a normal build, but even better here because you have the abilities of your other set of classes too.
Give it a mate and a catchy name and its on the list, preferably swashbuckler.
I dont know much about the usefulness of an Artificer, but this might be a good combo in a low-GP setting. I might add artificer/caster to the list if you can find a mate for artificer that helps it do what it does (which is everything as far as Im told) better.
Exemplar works great opposite artificer, as artificer is all about skill checks. Before exemplar, maybe bard or rogue (feat rogue?).
as well as Initiate of Milel
Beguiller 20//Bard 4/Paladin 16
add devoted performer and initiate of milel to this to retain bardic music attempts and bardic music abilites as a bard 20 because those two feats have bard and paladin levels stack for bardic music.
to add an even more interesting option have a level of monk. add in the feats Serenity and Ascetic Knight to have monk adn paladin levels stack for unarmed damage of a monk.
the bard/paladin and monk builds are added thanks to the creativity of Caelic. it is his ideas which inspire me to play a true Singinig in the Rain character. i might try that monk one as well.
Monk1/Bard1/Paladin 18//??? Ardent/cleric/divine mind/rogue (with Ascetic Rogue)/any class that works off of wisdom would be great. Saint template. Vow of Poverty would be intersting especially with Ascetic Rogue and Intuitive Strike. or Shiba Protector.
Psion (Kineticist) //xxx.
Why stick with one action per round when you can have two?
Use the Control body/Solicit Psicrystal combo:
Manifest Control Body, then the next round, the swift power Solicit Psicrystal. Now you have INT to Attacks, Damage and AC, PLUS you are free to manifest other powers while your body is engaged in melee. Very handy in a normal build, but even better here because you have the abilities of your other set of classes too.
What about Nomad 20/Fighter 20 or some variation with PrCs? Basically, it'd be the Chrono-Legionaire on steroids. Full BAB, full manifester level and power point progression, and up to 11 bonus fighter feats and 5 bonus psionic feats. In addition to the supercharge feats, you can pick up the Spiked Chain feats and find some way of making yourself larger (if all else fails, Expanded Knowledge (Expansion) does the trick), and you suddenly have a ridiculous number of actions. You probably won't be using Control Body regularly as it eliminates your AoOs (still a good idea to grab it for supercharging). However, you still have a mental standard action with Schism, a "concentration action" with Solicit Psicrystal (great with Telekinetic Maneuver), your regular action, and up to your dex mod's worth of AoOs. The biggest problem is a bit of MAD, requiring Strength for trips and Intelligence for powers, although if you choose not to go down the Spiked Chain path, having maxed Strength isn't really necessary.
Here's a cheesy thought that might work. Prebuff yourself with your attack/damage buffs and Solicit Psicrystal + Control Body. Cast Psionic Lion's Charge (learned through Expanded Knowledge) and charge. Make a full attack, then have your Psicrystal cease concentration on the Control Body. Then make another full attack with your action. If your DM allows it, he's probably nuts, but it should work under RAW.
Artificer 20 // * (sorceror 20)
artificer 20 // bard8/Incantatrix2/Sublime Chord2/Incantatrix3-10 ("Sublime Artificer")
Note that any sorc-base caster build can (and probably should) go on the right instead of sorc20, such as Sorceror 6/Incantatrix10/Archmage 4 (an "Incantrificer"), or Sor 6/Shadow adept 10/Shadowcrafter 4 ("shadowficer"), or really anything from this thread.
Synergy advantages:
1) Bonus metamagic/item creation feats, better class skill list, and more skill points as artificer helps you qualify for Incantatrix and other skill- and feat-heavy caster PrCs more easily. This frees you from having to take silly things like Education to qualify for Incantatrix by level 6.
2) Bonus metamagics are useful for caster side, especially as Incantatrix.
3) Caster side lets you use your high caster level in place of the low caster level you have on cheap staves. Essentially artificer expands your sorcerous casting to include the entire sorc/wiz spell list. This one's especially good for the bardic build above, as you gain effective access to bard *and* sorc/wiz spell lists, plus you can use Song of Arcane Power to further boost your caster level.
4) Wis and Str are still effectively dump stats; Str even moreso now because you'll have Homunculi to carry your luggage.
On the flip side, you've got something like:
Warforged fighter6/WF juggernaught5/spellcarved soldire5/X4 // artificer20
X4 can basically be anything: more levels of fighter for bonus feats, etc.
Synergy advantages:
1) Artificer's Repair infusions lessen the WF Juggernaught's problem of being immune to magical healing, as they can still repair themselves.
2) Spellcarved soldier's Rune of the Archmage, among its many benefits, allows you to cast infusions an additional five levels above your artificer level.
3) You can enhance yourself, build your own components, in general just make yourself a beautiful warmachine, especially when cherry-picking some of the warforged fighter and artificer racial sub levels.
2. Human Paragon/Monk
3. Sorcerer/Monk
4. Sorcerer/Hexblade
5. Sorcerer/Hexblade
6. Human Paragon/Hexblade
7. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
8. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
9. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
10. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
11. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
12. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
13. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
14. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
15. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
16. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
17. Sorcerer/Ur-Priest
18. Sorcerer/Blackguard
19. Sorcerer/Blackguard
20. Sorcerer/Hierophant
Charisma x 2 on Saves
[edit] Oh, I forgot Evasion and Mettle, how could I? [edit end]
I think you dont get the spells from Blackguard, but who cares?
Maybe take Blackguard Levels before Ur-Priest...
Hierophant is a little tricky, but 'gründe' (make an?) a sect, who steals from the gods and it should be ok.
Human Paragon is for skills req. an +2 to Charisma.
[edit2] As the skill from Paragon use Psionic Device, and you can use practically evry item (besides Holy things...)
[edit2 end]
cu
Feats for Days, Good Fort and Will saves
Least thats what Im going for with my current Gesalt. Only lvl 5 right now. Not sure how Its going to work out.
Can someone please examine the legality of my new Gestalt admissions? Especially archivist/warblade and Psion/erudite.I would think Psion/Erudite would fall under the 'only one variant of a base class' rule from UA, though.
Psychic Warrior gives you the feats the Warblade lacks, as well as a whole arena of self-buff and self mobility powers, freeing up your Warblade manuvers.
The limited endurance of the Psywar is also extended by the easy refresh of the Warblades Manuvers.
My PERSONAL reason for wanting to play the above combo is (waits for disgust) the Wuxia potential, along with a little 'lets see how high I can jump before cutting something in half with a monkey-gripped, upsized, fullblade', but the point is between the Warblades manuvers and the Psywars PsPs, you could build a character to do any trick or three your heart desires.
The one gaping hole in this otherwise delicious meal is the saves.. lets face it, in Gestalt, you EXPECT to get 3 favoureds... but Diamond Mind can cover that, with a little planning. Your full BAB, D12s, Int+4, bonus feats on one side, extra-full-attack-actions on the other.
And you can run up walls.
Of course, with alternate feat/power/manuver selection, you could also get a fairly staid, rock-solid warrior type, if Wuxia isnt your cuppa.
The Expert will give you more of feats and skills, while the Warblade will grant you flexibility on the battlefield. Combined with a good selection of maneuvers and the Martial Study feat taken correctly, this combination can be a killer Assassin-type character (Death in the Dark + Sneak Attack damage).
Rogue/Wizard... The combination of the two cheeziest classes in the game. Jack Int sky high for skills as well as spells. Sneak attack any ranged touch attack spell (like Enervation, Scorching Ray, Polar Ray, etc...) and keep Improved Invisibility up to make sure you never get seen and so can continue sneak attacking. Has a bunch of utility as well.
Barb10/Dragon Disciple10//Sorc 20... OMFG. DD does *NOT* have spellcasting progression, so you don't need to sac Sorc levels for it. Keep the D12 hit die of Barb/DD your entire career to give you survivability sorcerers normally don't have. And you get extra spells known, as well as turn Draconic, fly, breath weapon, and other nifty stuff.
Fighter//Psychic Warrior: The Psychic Fighter has more feats than you can shake a stick at. Master every combat style and use the psywar's buffing powers to overcome any challange.
Barbarain//Psychic Warrior. Use your feats on psionic feats to get the highest HP in the game. Start with psionic body and go talented all the way.
How about some ToB fun?
Swordsage20/Warblade20
All good saves, full BAB, lots and lots of maneuvers, d12, 6 skillpoints, special abilities, and initiator level of 18 at level 12, allowing for level 9 maneuvers and stances. Warsage?
Swordsage20/Crusader20 for a slightly different flavor. Crusager?
From one POV, both builds are MAD; another way to look at it is that both builds are attribute independent. The main power comes from the maneuvers and full BAB. Everything else is gravy. Substituting any of the usual suspect roster of prestige classes for various levels of one class or the other can slant things toward different attributes (Shiba protector, swashbuckler, etc, etc).
How about Swordsage/Cleric, Swordsage/Druid or even Swordsage/OA shaman? Lots of wisdom synergy here, for spells and AC. Accelerated initiator level. The Swordcleric and Druadge are no-brainers. The Swordshaman (Swordshman?) has a lesser spell list and lacks a good Fort save, but gets Cha to all saves at level 5, and brings interesting unarmed combat abilities to the party.
The swordsage spellcasting adaptation option is poorly defined. Permitted spells are up to the GM. Is the caster level equal to the initiator level? Can this guy take both spells and maneuvers? What stat governs spell power? Int? Cha? Wis? Is it considered an arcane spellcasting class?
(For now, I'll answer yes, yes, I don't know and yes.)
Adapted Swordsage/Crusader or Adapted Swordsage/Warblade
Accelerated spells and maneuvers, IL and CL of 18 and 9th level stances, spells and maneuvers at level 12. Armor is bad.
Adapted Swordsage//Stuff/Ur-Priest/Stuff
Wisdom synergy for UP spellcasting and AC. Adapted Swordsage CL of 30, with CL 18 and access to 9th level spells at level 12; UP CL of at least 20. The Ur-sword faces arcane spell failure in armor, unless the Stuff includes a class that mitigates that. (Spellsword, etc.)
Adapted Swordsage//Bard/Stuff/Sublime Chord/Stuff
Eventual CL of 40 (30 from Swordsage plus 10 from Sublime Chord). The Sublimeswordsage is happiest if the Adapted Swordsage spellcasting is not based on Int. Sneaking in the OA Witch Hunter or some other class to get Cha to saves cannot hurt.
Mmm.
Of course, GMs are not likely to enjoy the way gestalt and initiator level interact with each other and may take measures....
and initiator level of 18 at level 12
Just like everything else in Gestalt, you can't get more than one level of benefit for any given ability each level. Taking Wizard 20 on one side, and Rogue 10/Wizard PrC 10 on the other side does not get you a caster level of 30 at 20th level.
Likewise, you cannot get an initiator level higher than your character level.
It reads different when it comes to initiator level. Although you don't get double dips on the same class feature in gestalt, initiator level is based on the overall character: IL for a specific initiator class = levels in that class + levels in initiator prestige classes + 1/2 levels in all other classes.
Similarly, would you say that the caster level of a Bard 20//whatever/Sublime Chord 10/whatever is only 20 for Bard and SC? Not by RAW, insofar as I can tell.
Or say, a Wizard20/Other Arcane SpellcasterX/Ur-Priest10/Other Arcane Spellcaster 10-X: By your reading, this guy has a UP CL of 15, not 25.
Hi,
How about some ToB fun?
Swordsage20/Warblade20
All good saves, full BAB, lots and lots of maneuvers, d12, 6 skillpoints, special abilities, and initiator level of 18 at level 12, allowing for level 9 maneuvers and stances. Warsage?
Swordsage20/Crusader20 for a slightly different flavor. Crusager?
From one POV, both builds are MAD; another way to look at it is that both builds are attribute independent. The main power comes from the maneuvers and full BAB. Everything else is gravy. Substituting any of the usual suspect roster of prestige classes for various levels of one class or the other can slant things toward different attributes (Shiba protector, swashbuckler, etc, etc).
How about Swordsage/Cleric, Swordsage/Druid or even Swordsage/OA shaman? Lots of wisdom synergy here, for spells and AC. Accelerated initiator level. The Swordcleric and Druadge are no-brainers. The Swordshaman (Swordshman?) has a lesser spell list and lacks a good Fort save, but gets Cha to all saves at level 5, and brings interesting unarmed combat abilities to the party.
The swordsage spellcasting adaptation option is poorly defined. Permitted spells are up to the GM. Is the caster level equal to the initiator level? Can this guy take both spells and maneuvers? What stat governs spell power? Int? Cha? Wis? Is it considered an arcane spellcasting class?
(For now, I'll answer yes, yes, I don't know and yes.)
Adapted Swordsage/Crusader or Adapted Swordsage/Warblade
Accelerated spells and maneuvers, IL and CL of 18 and 9th level stances, spells and maneuvers at level 12. Armor is bad.
Adapted Swordsage//Stuff/Ur-Priest/Stuff
Wisdom synergy for UP spellcasting and AC. Adapted Swordsage CL of 30, with CL 18 and access to 9th level spells at level 12; UP CL of at least 20. The Ur-sword faces arcane spell failure in armor, unless the Stuff includes a class that mitigates that. (Spellsword, etc.)
Adapted Swordsage//Bard/Stuff/Sublime Chord/Stuff
Eventual CL of 40 (30 from Swordsage plus 10 from Sublime Chord). The Sublimeswordsage is happiest if the Adapted Swordsage spellcasting is not based on Int. Sneaking in the OA Witch Hunter or some other class to get Cha to saves cannot hurt.
Mmm.
Of course, GMs are not likely to enjoy the way gestalt and initiator level interact with each other and may take measures....
i have mailed the CustServ about this, and i am still waiting for an answer, let you know when i get it...
And if this works, maybe something like Caster Swordsage10/Jade Phoenix Mage10//Cleric20 could be a great combo...
Psion/Thrallherd//Dragon Shaman &/or Marshal.
Now you have auras, and lots of people to apply it to.
This could go with the Leadership-abuse that I saw a while back. Having all your level 1 Sorcerers casting MAgic Missle at one target at once is kinda sick.
I call it "Allherd"
1 Power Attack
2F Imp Bull Rush
3, F Extra Rage
4 Imp Sunder
5F Leap Attack
6 Shock Trooper
9 Quicken Breath
12 Clinging breath
15 Lingering breath
18 Combat Brute
Pop off rage, the DR vs. breath for your allies, Quickened Lingering Clinging cone of acid, charge into combat using the full power attack w/ shock trooper. Tons of other goodies as well. Duskblade is in there to keep up BAB and to enable use of spell completion stuff (Hexblade works too); a level from ToB and a couple feats to replace Imp Sunder and Combat Brute may be more useful, but books not w/ me.
Druid 6/Ranger 10/Druid 4//Wizard 6/Arcane Hierophant 10/Wizard 4
20th level divine+arcane casting, BaB 17, good melee(wild shape) and ranged(Ranger) Fighter, Companion Familiar level 20 and cast in light armor.
EW
I've been playing a lot of Gestalt lately... here's some of the true powerhouses:
Wizard//Archivist: All Int based, tons of spells available. It's the ultimate caster.
Druid20//Cloistered Cleric 19/Monk1: Nice skill points, amazing Wis Synnergy. Flurry in Wildshape and use your Wis to AC to make your Wildshapped critters even better, all with full casting. Feel free to add in some Devine Persistant goodness to go with your druid insanity. This is probably the strongest Gestalt build in existance... I've seen nothing close.
Rogue13/Swashbuckler3/Scarlet Corsair3/Assassin1//Beguiler11/Sea Witch3/Shadowcraft Mage5/Mindbender1: Lots of classes here, but an amazing combination... and you're a pirate. Full beguiler casting, all the glory of a shadowcraft mage, plus none of these classes except SCM require any feats to enter, so you can spend all your feats aiming towards Earthspell/Easy Metamagic/Arcane Thesis fun, meaning you've got all the casting of one of the most brutal arcane casters out there. You can pump your Int too, because you get Int to damage and Int to death attacks. In melee, you've got 40% concealment, swift action feinting, int to damage, 9d6 sneak attack, and nice saves, so you can actually stand up in a fight and dish it out. You're also a full powered skill monkey, with int synnergy combined with 8 skill points at most levels, 6 on the other levels.
Feats for this build: Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Spell Focus: Illusion, Heighten Spell, Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), Fell Weaken, and any other +1/+2 metamagic of your choice. Take Crippling Strike as one of your rogue abilities, and every sneak attacking evocation knocks off 6 points of strength from the enemy. Yehaw.
Fighter 20//Scout5/Dervish 10/Tempest5: A nice straight forward dual wielding heavy hitter. Not as powerful as some, but certainly interesting.
Fighter 20//Barbarian3/Psionic Warrior5/Exotic Weapon Master2/Warhulk10: The true spike chain tripper. Use a dwarf with permanent Enlarge Person and drop anything that gets near... Flurry of Blades and Exotic Trip are good EWM weapon trick choices. You'll crush anyone. Feel free to be both a tripper and charger with this build. This is one of the strongest Gestalt melee builds out there.
JaronK
Just had some inspiration.
Psion/Thrallherd//Dragon Shaman &/or Marshal.
Now you have auras, and lots of people to apply it to.
This could go with the Leadership-abuse that I saw a while back. Having all your level 1 Sorcerers casting MAgic Missle at one target at once is kinda sick.
I call it "Allherd"
Wilder /Thrallherd//Marshall /Dragon Shaman has less MAD, since you'll use Charisma for Wilder's manifestation & the Marshall's minor aura. You'll have to burn two feats though, but it shouldn't be too problematic (I think).
Dual casters are illegal in gestalt... no Arcane Hierophants or whatnot.
The rules just say it should be prohibited to use them.
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations--such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, eldritch knight-- should be prohibited....
so they could be used but it'd be unbalanced, right.
Other builds included EK so I posted a build with AH and since we are optimizing.. :D
prototype00
Say Rhonin, did you ever receive my post on why skeletons and zombies can't be more than 20 HD?
prototype00
Yes I did. And I checked it with my monster manual also. Please direct off-topic questions to my PM Box. Congratulations, you have just imploded, have a nice day!
Remember guys, Im not looking for Gestalt builds. Im looking for 2 base classes that are optimal when Gestalted.
Ya really should've thought of that before choosing your title ;) People're posting builds because it's sufficiently vague!
Remember guys, Im not looking for Gestalt builds. Im looking for 2 base classes that are optimal when Gestalted.
A spring attacking Monk // Spellthief with mage slayer and a reach weapon is just gross.
Ya really should've thought of that before choosing your title ;) People're posting builds because it's sufficiently vague!
And besides, what percentage of gestalt campaigns out there ONLY allow two base classes to level 20?
It's kind of like starting a 'make the ultimate tripfighter' thread and then saying that spiked chains, improved trip, and reach weapons aren't allowed :D
Here's and interesting idea. Basically the Machine Gun Rogue on one side and Shadowcaster on the other.
1. Rogue // Shadowcaster
2. Rogue // Shadowcaster
3. Rogue // Shadowcaster
4. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
5. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
6. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
7. Fighter // Shadowcaster
8. Fighter // Shadowcaster
9. Fighter // Shadowcaster
10. Fighter // Shadowcaster
11. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
12. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
13. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
14. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
15. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
16. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
17. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
18. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
19. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
20. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
Or one of my other ideas
1. Rogue // Shadowcaster
2. Rogue // Shadowcaster
3. Swashbuckler or Rogue// Shadowcaster
4. Swashbuckler or Rogue // Shadowcaster
5. Swashbuckler or Rogue // Shadowcaster
6. Assassin // Shadowcaster
7. Assassin // Shadowcaster
8. Assassin // Shadowcaster
9. Assassin // Shadowcaster
10. Assassin // Shadowcaster
11. Assassin // Shadowcaster
12. Assassin // Shadowcaster
13. Assassin // Shadowcaster
14. Assassin // Shadowcaster
15. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
16. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
17. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
18. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
19. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
20. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
Pal/Wilder. Use CHA for psion stuff and to saves. Manifesting in full plate is fun. D10 hit die and full BAB from Pal. Overchanneling can be an issue, due to MAD.
Monk/PsiWar. Yea, seems crazy, right? Both have 3/4 BAB, both have D8 hit die... so why bother? Umm... let's see, how about a monk that can manifest on the PsiWar's power list, many of which add to the nastiness of unarmed attacks (Dissipating Touch, anyone?). Enlarge, augmented to allow two size changes, plus monk unarmed damage size increased two times, equals a LOT of damage being done.
Psion/Cleric. Even better than Cleric/Wiz because you can manifest without penalty in Adamantine Full Plate.
Pal/Monk. Okay, you loose the armor of the pally, but look at all you gain. Wis bonus to AC and Saves. Lots of immunities. Full BAB with Monk Flurry of Blows. Pretty nasty
Monk/any manifesting or arcane casting class. Seriously, you want your caster to survive? Monks bring survivability to anything but raw damage, which their spells darn well ought to be able to provide by now. Evasion plus high saves means your arcane duels are a lot more one-sided in your favor when they start chunking Fireballs at you. For more fun, try Pal2/Monk18//Wilder or Sorc/PrC with full progression a/PrC with full progression b. Get your saves upped for the bargain and bring your unarmed attacks back up with a Monk's Belt. Slight MAD in CHA and WIS primary and DEX secondary.
Cleric20//Pal2/Monk18. Okay, you loose your armor. You gain your Wis bonus (the one you cast with, so you should darn well make it your highest stat) to AC and your CHA (which you turn with) to Saves. Evasion never hurts, and with all high saves, you don't need to worry about AE nukes anymore. This is a medic-box that can keep himself alive!
Ya really should've thought of that before choosing your title ;) People're posting builds because it's sufficiently vague!
Notice that I said Combos not builds. Notice how in my original post I only have 2 classes that synergize well when gestalted and reasons why they do so. I wanted it this way so my Gestalt Resource can become a stepping stone for those who build Gestalt characters often.
And besides, what percentage of gestalt campaigns out there ONLY allow two base classes to level 20?
It's kind of like starting a 'make the ultimate tripfighter' thread and then saying that spiked chains, improved trip, and reach weapons aren't allowed
My gestalt campaign! I ban multiclassing and only allow 1 or 2 prestige classes, Gestalt becomes significantly less broken when you dont allow something like this
1. Rogue // Shadowcaster
2. Rogue // Shadowcaster
3. Rogue // Shadowcaster
4. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
5. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
6. Swashbuckler // Shadowcaster
7. Fighter // Shadowcaster
8. Fighter // Shadowcaster
9. Fighter // Shadowcaster
10. Fighter // Shadowcaster
11. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
12. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
13. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
14. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
15. Invisible Blade // Shadowcaster
16. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
17. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
18. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
19. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
20. Master Thrower // Shadowcaster
Or one of my other ideas
1. Rogue // Shadowcaster
2. Rogue // Shadowcaster
3. Swashbuckler or Rogue// Shadowcaster
4. Swashbuckler or Rogue // Shadowcaster
5. Swashbuckler or Rogue // Shadowcaster
6. Assassin // Shadowcaster
7. Assassin // Shadowcaster
8. Assassin // Shadowcaster
9. Assassin // Shadowcaster
10. Assassin // Shadowcaster
11. Assassin // Shadowcaster
12. Assassin // Shadowcaster
13. Assassin // Shadowcaster
14. Assassin // Shadowcaster
15. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
16. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
17. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
18. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
19. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
20. Telfammar Shadowlord // Shadowcaster
But enough of that, new additions to the list:
Rogue/shadowcaster "Rogowcaster", Incarnate/monk "Moncarnate" (based off of the soulborn/monk suggestion), monk/psychic warrior "Psionic Monk", Shaper/marshall "Ectopic Warherd" (Based off of Pontelon's idea)
Remember guys, Im not looking for Gestalt builds. Im looking for 2 base classes that are optimal when Gestalted.
The one that seems obvious to me with the Book of Nine swords but that I haven't seen championed here yet is Sword Sage + Fighter.
The most martial maneuvers, the most feats, Full BAB, between the new feats in the book of nine swords and the player's handbook 2 there are enough good feats to provide excellent choices all of the way up through 20.
Is this synergistic combination too obvious or is there something that I've missed?
Fighter only feats seem, as a general rule, to stack with one another, martial maneuvers in general do not. Yet, yet I've seen some attention for Warblade + sword sage/ Book of Nine Swords prestige class builds which I would think might run into the problem of not allowing all of the character's abilities to come into play at once. Meanwhile all of that specialization/ mastery/ supremacy goodness will stack with every martial maneuver that you feel inclined to activate.
Is there something that I'm missing?
Such a nice guy, isn´t he? Boost Charisma for the spells, dark blessing, smite good, and other special powers. Here you have a great warrior who can take a punch on the front lines (thanks to the d10 HD, Damage Reduction, and Fortification), but his ability in the realm of undeath is quite awesome as well (providing nice support and/or cannon fodder). You can only wear light armor efficiently, though, unless the armor in question has some special enchantment. On Level 20, he becomes a Lich and thus gets further benefits from his negative energy attacks.
Full BAB, decent skill list, armored casting, plus INT synergy like mad.
Beguiler's spellcasting gives you tons of utility spells, plus they get advantages whenever they get the drop on someone... advantages that might be best used by, say, a polar ray...
Simple, easy, effective--- my kind of optimization.
Fighter 20 // Troll (ECL 11) / Ranger 1 / Hulking Hurler 3 / Master Thrower 5
Lots of Feats, troll abilities, and a combo of the two foremost thrower classes out there (he likes Area attack + Two in one hit).
Then we have...
Rogue 20 // Fighter 5 / Assassin 10 / Invisible Blade 5
At Level 5 he is a pure Fighter // Rogue with +3d6 Sneak Attack, but then he takes levels in prestige classes with SA at every odd level. This means hís Sneak Attack increases every character level, for a grand total of +18d6 at Level 20 (assuming you use daggers of some kind). Increase Intelligence for the Death Attack DC and unarmored AC bonus, as well as for the skill points and Assassin spells.
This is fun :D
Paladin//Favored Soul
Truly a divine servant of the celestial gods. You should boost your Charisma as far as you can to improve your spellcasting ability, as well as the various Paladin powers. Also, you get some extra goodies when fighting with your deity´s favored weapon.
Cleric//Monk
May not have the optimal BAB, but it is quite nice to have an array of special powers AND divine spells to really increase your fighting prowess. Wisdom is obviously an important stat to boost.
scout // rogue - take spring attack for a possible 15d6 extra damage a round
sout // monk - unarmed strike damage and skirmish is actually a decent combo
bard // hexblade - full bab, full weapon selection, lots of decent spells and support, cha synergy
crusader // bard - skald, warrior bard with cha synergy better hd, full bab, full weapon selection
warblade // duskblade - int powered gish extreme
Then again, Dvati can be just as dangerous (if not more) as a Monk (Kung Fu Genius), Swashbuckler, Soulknife, Kensai (however you wish to gestalt that so as to avoid XP Penalties).
I am about to go into a Gestalt campaign, and i have decided on this:
Favoured Soul // Beguiler.
Add in armoured casting improvement and you have 2 lvl 9 casting progressions, 6+int skills with all the key ones on there for skillmonkey, plus 3/4 BAB, d8 HD and 3 good saves. All in medium armour.
Seems like a good combo to me ^^;
(Going for a gnome one, Garl Glittergold fits the deity of this kind of character, plus battleaxe aint a bad weapon ;))
Spellthief 20 // Fighter 20.
Or Spellthief 20 // Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 16 or something like that instead if you like...Fighter is mostly there for the feats and BaB in this case. Take Spellfire Wielder (if I understand it correctly).
This should preferably be done when a helpful party member is playing a Warlock // ??? with helpful invocations.
Spellfire's been severely nerfed in 3.5 as you now have to use a readied action to absorb spells. Although I suppose as a wizard you could use extraordinary concentration with rainbow pattern to fascinate enemy non-casters while you absorb the spell of the caster.
I don't know how many times this needs to be said... having two casting stats in Gestalt makes you underpowered. Beguiler//Favored Soul? Lame. Wizard//Cleric? Lame.
JaronK
A casting feature for wizard spellcasting- it's like saying a sorcerer cleric pools their spells & spell lists
This was from the second page and I don't think anyone addressed it, but the dude was talking about using the geomancer's spell versitility to say cast any of the spells he knows spontaneously, not just making up stuff.
Illumian (Uur+Krau)
Cleric 20//Martial Rogue 20
With Mystra/Initiate of Mystra/Spell/Antimagic Field/Extend SPell/Persitant Spell/Divine Metamagic/Persitent Divine Power/Nightsticks/Domain Spontaneity: Spell/Orange Ioun stone
Use your bonus feats to pick up sword & board TWF feats, as well as anything else you might want...like, say, improved inititive, for example...
It's just plain raunchy.
Benefits:
+Nigh immune to magic, thanks to his antimagic field,
+Good saves across the board
+all the skill points of a rogue
+Skills of a cleric & a rogue
+all the casting goodness of a cleric
+3/4 base attack bonus (upgraded to full via divine power)
+d8 HD
+Trapfinding
+Uncanny dodge & Improved uncanny dodge
+Trap Sense
+Evasion
+4 rogue special abilities
+11 Fighter bonus feats
+7 Character Feats
(Yielding a whopping 22 feats, half of which can be any eligible feat in the game, although I'd use one for improved evasion)
In addition:
+While other magic items (barring artifacts) are suppressed near him, he can use his own spells (magic weapon, greater on sword & shield spikes and magic vestment on shield and armor, among others) to enhance his own combat prowess (for hours/level, no need to pesistify).
The ability to anyspell himself into an alternate form via polymorph (nothing says loving quite like the medium-sized Kelvezu (+8D6 SA :D ) with this build...& theoretically persist it with the nightsticks he bought with the money he saved on weapons & armor...
the ability to give himself fast healing via a persistent vigor, greater...
Persistent anyspelled fly.
Finally, since dispel magic is a spell, and AMF stops all spells, his self buffs would be undispellable, if I'm interpreting the rules correctly...
Think of the horrors you could inflict with this build.
For the cost of 3 or 4 persistant spells, and 4 long-duration spells, you can be just as nasty as a fighter....and still have lots of castings left to use on utility/long range attack spells.
Not to mention the ability to use wands as if you were a wizard (granted, 1/2 levels, but still...)
If you want to make sure you can cast in your own antimagic field:
Trade out 4 rogue levels for levels in Sorceror, and pick up arcane mastery...now you can take 10 on your
caster level checks...take the ioun stone off, and supress your sigils to cast your persistant amf, and then put em back on: Presto!
It'll cost you two feats to do it though...but Personally, I think it's well worth it.
Full BAB, Armored Mage, channel your touch spells (Save or die melee attack? yes please!), as well as all sorts of dusblade spells to burn away with Arcane strike. At 20th, use that greatsword to do 2d6+5d6+save or die and turn into a shadow under my control+strength.
Dread Necromancer/Duskblade- channel Slay Living ? Inflict spells? You lose out on the usefulness of Charnel touch, but thats what Tomb Tainted Soul is for... and you get damage reduction! But good luck on thinking of a reasonable backstory for that...
Also, Fighter/Knight is working out for me very well in one of my games. Combining feats (from fighter) like Standstill (EPH) and Hold the Line (Complete Warror) with test of mettle is quite dirty. So many attacks of opp with combat reflexes!
Massive damage potential, Int synergy, all good saves, full BAB.
Also, full attack channeled Touch of Idiocy, then Lurk's Mental Assault. Awesome Anti-spellcaster combination.
Anybody up to helping me with feats?
Mmm. Can't remember if any one's already posted this, but:
Illumian (Uur+Krau)
Cleric 20//Martial Rogue 20
With Mystra/Initiate of Mystra/Spell/Antimagic Field/Extend SPell/Persitant Spell/Divine Metamagic/Persitent Divine Power/Nightsticks/Domain Spontaneity: Spell/Orange Ioun stone
Use your bonus feats to pick up sword & board TWF feats, as well as anything else you might want...like, say, improved inititive, for example...
It's just plain raunchy.
Benefits:
+Nigh immune to magic, thanks to his antimagic field,
+Good saves across the board
+all the skill points of a rogue
+Skills of a cleric & a rogue
+all the casting goodness of a cleric
+3/4 base attack bonus (upgraded to full via divine power)
+d8 HD
+Trapfinding
+Uncanny dodge & Improved uncanny dodge
+Trap Sense
+Evasion
+4 rogue special abilities
+11 Fighter bonus feats
+7 Character Feats
(Yielding a whopping 22 feats, half of which can be any eligible feat in the game, although I'd use one for improved evasion)
In addition:
+While other magic items (barring artifacts) are suppressed near him, he can use his own spells (magic weapon, greater on sword & shield spikes and magic vestment on shield and armor, among others) to enhance his own combat prowess (for hours/level, no need to pesistify).
The ability to anyspell himself into an alternate form via polymorph (nothing says loving quite like the medium-sized Kelvezu (+8D6 SA :D ) with this build...& theoretically persist it with the nightsticks he bought with the money he saved on weapons & armor...
the ability to give himself fast healing via a persistent vigor, greater...
Persistent anyspelled fly.
Finally, since dispel magic is a spell, and AMF stops all spells, his self buffs would be undispellable, if I'm interpreting the rules correctly...
Think of the horrors you could inflict with this build.
For the cost of 3 or 4 persistant spells, and 4 long-duration spells, you can be just as nasty as a fighter....and still have lots of castings left to use on utility/long range attack spells.
Not to mention the ability to use wands as if you were a wizard (granted, 1/2 levels, but still...)
If you want to make sure you can cast in your own antimagic field:
Trade out 4 rogue levels for levels in Sorceror, and pick up arcane mastery...now you can take 10 on your
caster level checks...take the ioun stone off, and supress your sigils to cast your persistant amf, and then put em back on: Presto!
It'll cost you two feats to do it though...but Personally, I think it's well worth it.
Isn't this similar to LordOfProcrastination's unbeatable cleric of Mystara? You implode! However, gestalt archivist/changeling feat rogue is pretty good. Whoever thought of that please speak now or forever hold their peace.
Another one worth mentioning (not sure if it has been, I didn't read all 6 pages) is Duskblade/Shadowcaster.
Full BAB, Armored Mage, channel your touch spells (Save or die melee attack? yes please!), as well as all sorts of dusblade spells to burn away with Arcane strike. At 20th, use that greatsword to do 2d6+5d6+save or die and turn into a shadow under my control+strength.
Isn't Shadowcaster charisma based? If so, im sorry but it doesn't fit the list. Same thing with Duskblade/dread necro below. Maybe duskblade/truenamer, but I dont know jack about Truenamers. So far the best duskblade combos are: Duskblade/cleric, duskblade/warblade, duskblade/beguiler. Sorry Khandar, but your "Lurkblade" does not make the list, armored mage and Lurk sneakiness oppose.
Added as of today: Hexblade/crusader, swashbuckler/swordsage, feat rogue/warblade, Incarnate/crusader or Incarnate/swordsage.
ISo far the best duskblade combos are: Duskblade/cleric, ...
Right all that int synergy of a duskblade cleric... oh wait, doesn't a cleric cast off of wisdom?
no arcane spell failure for wearing armor? yes!
15d6 (1d6 level) nights caress on a touch each strike as a full round attack? YES!
using blade of pain and fear (spell) for all the attacks to be touch? YES!
more spells per day than you can shake a stick at? YES!
Duskblades can get along with only 15 int, so basically all a "Priestblade" needs is str, con and wis.
By that logic the dread necro/duskblade and other cha-based casters would work just as well as a wis-based caster/duskblade.
That was my point.
Isn't this similar to LordOfProcrastination's unbeatable cleric of Mystara? You implode!
It is...in fact it uses the same feat , initiate of Mystra, to generate a good spell defense...
but to my knowledge, I am the first person to suggest using the martial rogue with cleric in this manner.
By that logic the dread necro/duskblade and other cha-based casters would work just as well as a wis-based caster/duskblade.
That was my point.
I would rather have 15int and high wis than 15int and high cha, but the biggest reason against dread necro/duskblade is armored mage. In order to cast both classes worth of spells you can only wear light armor which forces you into a bare minimum of 18 dex, 14 dex with the battle caster feat. Meanwhile my "Priestblade" can cast everything with 14 dex (heavy plate with battle caster means 10 dex), has a better will save AND can still arcane channel those nasty cleric touch spells. The "Dreadblade" can do the same in a similar way, but only with 18 dex, has a smaller will save with better social skills and is basically limited to swift casting dread necro nukes.
It is...in fact it uses the same feat , initiate of Mystra, to generate a good spell defense...
but to my knowledge, I am the first person to suggest using the martial rogue with cleric in this manner.
I do not like cleric/rogue, nor do I like archivist/rogue. Divine spellcasting clashes with rogue stealth and social skills.
Is it not possible that you haven't examined all the possiblities of a charisma-caster/duskblade?
(1) Meanwhile my "Priestblade" can cast everything with 14 dex (heavy plate with battle caster means 10 dex), (2) has a better will save AND (3) can still arcane channel those nasty cleric touch spells.
(1) Read JosephKell's gish thread. There are several ways that one might wear full plate without risk of arcane spell failure, if that's so important to you. Of course, any real arcanist would just bust off an alter self or polymorph an blow you silly full plate out of the water.
(2) Right. Paladin 2 dip or Black guard or any of a number of simple dips will allow me to add charisma to ALL MY SAVES, not just will.
(3) Yup, and I could arcane channel all those nifty sor/wiz touch spells. Both sides have their nasty spells.
I do not like cleric/rogue, nor do I like archivist/rogue. Divine spellcasting clashes with rogue stealth and social skills.
Care to support that sentiment?
Whatever man. Take a look at the X stat to Y bonus thread. Charisma is the ultimate stat. Still don't believe me? Take a look at some of the 100^10 competition entries; a lot of them use and abuse the charisma stat.
Is it not possible that you haven't examined all the possiblities of a charisma-caster/duskblade?
(1) Read JosephKell's gish thread. There are several ways that one might wear full plate without risk of arcane spell failure, if that's so important to you. Of course, any real arcanist would just bust off an alter self or polymorph an blow you silly full plate out of the water.
(2) Right. Paladin 2 dip or Black guard or any of a number of simple dips will allow me to add charisma to ALL MY SAVES, not just will.
(3) Yup, and I could arcane channel all those nifty sor/wiz touch spells. Both sides have their nasty spells.
Note to self, never debate CO with Tleilaxu_Ghola. Dread Necromancer/duskblade is on the list.
Care to support that sentiment?
Rogues need light armor for evasion and improved evasion, which is a waste of cleric proficiencies. Why make move silently and hide checks when you can cast invisibility? Why make diplomacy and intimidate checks when you can just cast charm person? Not sure if these are on the cleric list, but if it exists it can be cast. Most of my argument is based off of my personal preferences, you like gishes whereas I despise warcasters, skillcasters and theurges alike. This dynasty warriors metaphor, ironically said by what the boards would describe as a gish, perfectly represents my feelings on the gish.
"Of two arms, only one may hold a shield."
However I refuse to debate game styles on my Gestalt Resource that I sigged.
However I refuse to debate game styles on my Gestalt Resource that I sigged.
Even though that's what you've been doing for several posts?
Feat Rogue (UA variant)/Warblade: This combo is so good I ate my priest and baked a cobra (sorry if I have that expression wrong). Combine 8+int skills/level, d12 hit die, and full BAB with fighter feats, maneuvers with the best recovery system in the game, and Int synergy and what you have is an absolute MONSTER. Fills the melee role perhaps better than any other combination but fighter/swordsage, is more synergistic, and also lets you fill the scouting/trapping/sneaking role better than most anything short of rogue/scout. Enjoy.
Along the same lines but much less well rouded and more beat down focused is Warblade/psychic warrior d12 hit die, full BAB, maneuvers with the best recovery system in the game, the full suite of psychic warrior tools, and 12 bonus feats includng access to fighter bonus feats (this is in fact one more bonus feat than a fighter). This does require a wisdom score increasing MAD.
d12 hit die, Full BAB, all good saves, 6+Int mod skill points per level: These are Dragon stats!
Not to mention that you have access to every discipline except Devoted Spirit an by 20th level you've got Int to nearly everything, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, The ability to use 2 boosts at once, 2 Stances at once, 38 manuevers know, 19 maneuvers readied, and 6 stances!
Why wouldn't anyone do this?
Combine a straight psion seer with an assassin optimized build (using assassin and blackflame zealot) to preform the following stunt:
Remote Viewing + Energy Ray + Death Attack.
Deliver the ray through the remote viewing (after having observed for three rounds). You will catch the opponent flat-footed due to the fact that you're invisible and conceivably millions of miles away.
Bam you just delivered a death attack to someone while sitting back at home. They could be miles away. It's a great trick for a DM wanting to end the campaign...
DM: "Out of thin air a ray energy strikes you in the face... roll a fort save to avoid death."
Player: "Wha? Where did it come from..."
DM: "Roll fool"
Player: *rattle rattle*
DM: "Ph3AR mah L337 optimized skillz. You die"
Player: "This is retarded..."
Combine a straight psion seer with an assassin optimized build (using assassin and blackflame zealot) to preform the following stunt:
I'm sure the bit about combination prestige classes being disallowed in Gestalt has been mentioned. How is Black Flame Zealot not a Rogue/Cleric combo?
That said,
DM: "Out of thin air a ray energy strikes you in the face... roll a fort save to avoid death."
Player: "Wha? Where did it come from..."
DM: "Roll fool"
Player: *rattle rattle*
DM: "Ph3AR mah L337 optimized skillz. You die"
Player: "This is retarded..."
Yoink!
Seer 20//Optimized Death Attack build.
The PrCs are all on the left side.
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
By this rule, I'd say that a PrC which is Rogue + Cleric (such as Black Flame Zealot) should be disallowed.
I am actually thinking of playing a rogue//psychic warrior/Elocater , with the intention of moving around the battle feild flanking foes.
Do you think this will work, is there a better combination. I only have access to normal wotc and not Tome of battles. ???
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
This now marks the fifth time this exact passage was quoted in the same thread, the next person to do so will implode!
Hey guys
I am actually thinking of playing a rogue//psychic warrior/Elocater , with the intention of moving around the battle feild flanking foes.
Do you think this will work, is there a better combination. I only have access to normal wotc and not Tome of battles. ???
Rogue/warlock would be a good combo for your concept, just quicken spell-like ability (flee the scene or retributive invisibility) and sneak attack blast. If you need SRD only, rogue/monk built around spring attacking can get sick. I dont like rogue/psywar cuz you will get MAD fast and psychic warrior buff powers clash with rogue stealthitude
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
...
[implodes]
All books & suplements, 3.5 ed.
str 16 dex 18 con 16 Int 15 Wis 11 charisma 20
catfolk race
seems to be working well together so far
Hmm, if you really want to stack some damage on, take Ninja/Rogue. Dual sneak attack progression thanks to the different wording (Sudden Strike). 20d6 extra dmg at 20th level per attack sounds like a good deal to me. Stack in some twf and a ring of blink, and you will consistently be doing 80d6 + / round. Provided you can hit with your med BAB.
Too much overlap. A Ninja//Sneak Attack Fighter will give you better hps, bab and save. Or a Ninja//Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 with the feat that allows you to stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack (the feat should probably be ban in Gestalt by the Dm, but the rules never mention multiclass feats just prcs.)
It does have very nice stats, however (d8, Full BAB, all good saves, full weapon/armor proficiencies, and 8+Int skill points/level), and it makes melee a lot safer since you can combine the effects of arcane channeling and sneak attack against flanked opponents.
It's actually more of a skill monkey, though, because ironically duskblades have all Knowledge skills on thier class list (along with Spellcraft, Ride, and Concentration), and since both classes like to have a high Int, these two synergize well with each other stat-wise. Not blown out of the water borked, just nice.
I guess it's more of a good place to start; this is a combo where PrCing on one side might be desirable over simply going straight 20/20.
Cleric/Crusader- You can heal yourself with both clases, deal amazing damage with both clases, and persistify. You cant die, its a fact. Plus you get the whole "Holy man" thing on both sides, so it works for flavor too.
Artificer/Warblade- Inteligence Synergies. Combat effectiveness. And to top it off, you can make any equipment a melee-happy, blood lusting, plate wearing, master of pwn, could ever want. Actually, Arti/Commoner = pwnage, So throw in some TOB action and your set.
By this rule, I'd say that a PrC which is Rogue + Cleric (such as Black Flame Zealot) should be disallowed.
The problem with this determination is that almost *every* PrC out there can be considered as taking things from various classes. If it gives you sneak attack, it's a rogue ability. If it gives you a spell-like ability, it's a Warlock !
Basically, it's up to the DM.
BFZ is a R/C in the same way that Prestige Paladin is a Fighter/Cleric...
The problem with this determination is that almost *every* PrC out there can be considered as taking things from various classes. If it gives you sneak attack, it's a rogue ability. If it gives you a spell-like ability, it's a Warlock !
Basically, it's up to the DM.
BFZ is a R/C in the same way that Prestige Paladin is a Fighter/Cleric...
Huh?
1. Everything in D&D is "up to the DM". In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a blurb in the DMG that states a DM may disallow PrCs altogether. Stating this is pointless as, since it applies to all rules, many people tend to just assume that each sentence in a D&D discussion is prefaced by "If your DM allows...". It just saves space to not write it every time.
2. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a PrC that advances sneak attack and divine casting isn't a Cleric/Rogue combination? Even if you are, access to this class isn't guaranteed in a Gestalt campaign. It isn't clear cut, so there's, at very least, a doubt to it's eligibility.
3. Examples of PrCs that the gestalt rule would certainly allow include:
(sblocked to conserve space)
Show
Bear Warrior
Cavalier
Dervish
Drunken Master
Exotic Weapon Master
Frenzied Berserker
Hulking Hurler
Kensai
Master Thrower
Order of the Bow Initiate
Purple Dragon Knight
Blighter
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Stormlord
Ur-Priest
Alienist
Argent Savant
Blood Magus
Effigy Master
Elemental Savant
Fatespinner
Geometer
Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
Mage of the Arcane Order
Master Transmogrifist
Mindbender
Seeker of the Song
Sublime Chord
Wayfarer Guide
I'm sure there are more; the above are just the ones from Complete Warrior, Complete Divine and Complete Arcane.
Bear Warrior
Cavalier
Dervish
Drunken Master
Exotic Weapon Master
Frenzied Berserker
Hulking Hurler
Kensai
Master Thrower
Order of the Bow Initiate
Purple Dragon Knight
Blighter
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Stormlord
Ur-Priest
Alienist
Argent Savant
Blood Magus
Effigy Master
Elemental Savant
Fatespinner
Geometer
Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
Mage of the Arcane Order
Master Transmogrifist
Mindbender
Seeker of the Song
Sublime Chord
Wayfarer Guide
I'm sure there are more; the above are just the ones from Complete Warrior, Complete Divine and Complete Arcane.
Beguiler/Factotum - Int based casting, int based factotum goodies, also AC later on. Casting in light armor, two good saves, medium Bab, a lot of skillpoints, nice hit dice for a caster, and the ability to take two standard actions in one round with the possibility to use them both to cast spells... If you connect it with a shadowcraft mage on the beguiler side, you get two rounds worth of killergnome action in one round. Nice. And with flavor too.
I have no idea wtf a "Factotum" is, it sounds like a food.
I have no idea wtf a "Factotum" is, it sounds like a food.
It's a class from Dungeonscape. Look here for it's brief description.
My favorite gestalt mix has to be Divine Bard/Paladin of Freedom (both unearthed arcana variants) or Divine Bard/Regular Paladin (with the devoted performer feat from complete adventurer, which allows for a lawful bard)
Why this mix you ask? Good question! Well, besides being fun to play flavor-wise IMO, a Divine Bardadin (of Freedom or regular) is also a really strong mix. A lot of people don't like the divine bard because it requires you have 16 in wisdom to cast level 6 spells, but you already need a 14 in wisdom to cast 4th level paladin spells so it's not that big of a deal. Since your bard spells are now divine, you can freely use divine metamagic on them (powered by the paladin's turning attempts
). You have 3 good saves, d10 hit dice, full BAB, and +6 skill points per level. Besides that, you can abuse your charisma score to no end!Here are some easy ways to abuse charisma with this build:
Divine Grace (paladin ability) - gives you cha to all your saving throws
Snowflake Wardancer (feat that works off bardic performances from Frostburn) - allows you to add cha to attack and damage
Slippers of Battledancing (Item from PHB2) - allow you to replace str with cha for attack and damage as long as you move 10 ft per round
Divine Might (Divine feat from Complete Warrior) - Cha to damage AGAIN!
Divine Shield (Divine feat from Complete Warrior) - Cha to AC
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Bard Spell found here) - gives you Cha to one Save or SR or AC.
Sirine's Grace (spell from Spell Compendium p191) - gives you cha to AC
Bow of Song (Item that works off bardic performances from Magic Item Compendium) - gives you cha to Hit and Damage
(also keep in mind that Cha still determines the bard's bonus spells per day and spell DCs)
I mean, the list goes on and on. The synergy between these two classes is just amazing!
I am enjoying my 5th level gestal very much, I'm a Warblade///UA Rogue (Fighter feat variant)With the best hitdie, bab, all good saves, 8+int skillpoints, perfect skill list and manuvers, this character murders everyone. Oh, lets not forget trapsense, evasion, and a few other roguish goodies. And his extra fighter feats are nother to scoff at, either.
Besides getting access to fighter feats (overrated) and some weapon and armor proficiencies (easily circumvented), this is better in every way compared to the Fighter/Warblade suggestion from the main post. Bravo!
This gives you 20th level Warmage casting... with the Cleric and Sor/Wiz spell lists. (You could also go for weird stuff like Wu Jen, but those three allow you to cast pretty much anything in the game.)
Eat that, Extra Spell.
make sure you take the swift ambusher and ascetic stalker feats and you get +5d6/+5 skirmish, +9d6 Sneak Attack, +8d6 Sudden Strike, all good saves, unarmed damage as a 20th lvl monk, and all those fun Ki powers!
Wizard//Warrior(UA)
or
Spellcaster//Warrior
Besides getting access to fighter feats (overrated) and some weapon and armor proficiencies (easily circumvented), this is better in every way compared to the Fighter/Warblade suggestion from the main post. Bravo!
Martial Rogue//warblade is on the main post, under skills if memory serves me right (which it never does)
I don't know how optimizable it is, but a crusader//knight at level 20 is damn near unkillable through straight damage, as you can get a load of feats that help you stay alive, and since Loyal Beyond Death will always let you survive to another round, you should be able to unleash Strike of Righteous Vitality the next and heal 150 hit points. Presumably the Knight would work real well at level 20 with any class that gets healing, I just happened to pick this one out.
I prefer cleric//crusader, you get the healing and the survivability of devoted spirit ontop of cleric spellcasting which is arguably the best casting to have. Its like archivist//warblade (which is my personal favorite divine gishtalt) but in a devoted kinda way.
Side note: you mentioned the feat serenity in your first post. It's from Dragon Compendium volume 1, not champions of valor.
I now own Dragon Compendium volume I (makes a great Hanukkah present) and I will be correcting my mistakes whenever I feel like it. Thank you for not imploding
My favorite gestalt mix has to be Divine Bard/Paladin of Freedom (both unearthed arcana variants) or Divine Bard/Regular Paladin (with the devoted performer feat from complete adventurer, which allows for a lawful bard)
Why this mix you ask? Good question! Well, besides being fun to play flavor-wise IMO, a Divine Bardadin (of Freedom or regular) is also a really strong mix. A lot of people don't like the divine bard because it requires you have 16 in wisdom to cast level 6 spells, but you already need a 14 in wisdom to cast 4th level paladin spells so it's not that big of a deal. Since your bard spells are now divine, you can freely use divine metamagic on them (powered by the paladin's turning attempts
Here are some easy ways to abuse charisma with this build:
Divine Grace (paladin ability) - gives you cha to all your saving throws
Snowflake Wardancer (feat that works off bardic performances from Frostburn) - allows you to add cha to attack and damage
Slippers of Battledancing (Item from PHB2) - allow you to replace str with cha for attack and damage as long as you move 10 ft per round
Divine Might (Divine feat from Complete Warrior) - Cha to damage AGAIN!
Divine Shield (Divine feat from Complete Warrior) - Cha to AC
Ruin Delver's Fortune (Bard Spell found here) - gives you Cha to one Save or SR or AC.
Sirine's Grace (spell from Spell Compendium p191) - gives you cha to AC
Bow of Song (Item that works off bardic performances from Magic Item Compendium) - gives you cha to Hit and Damage
(also keep in mind that Cha still determines the bard's bonus spells per day and spell DCs)
I mean, the list goes on and on. The synergy between these two classes is just amazing!
Added to the list, the amount of charisma synergy possible between bard and the variant paladin of freedom is so incredible that you implode because I wish I thought of it first!
How would this fair as gestalt build?
Wizard//Warrior(UA)
or
Spellcaster//Warrior
It's a Gishtalt, a gestalt of two standard classes in which the end result is a dual-threat caster//fighter Gish. Not that there's anything wrong with a standard Gishtalt, I just would prefer the combination of classes which when combined do one thing better together.
Martial Rogue//warblade is on the main post, under skills if memory serves me right (which it never does)
You're right. My bad
I now own Dragon Compendium volume I (makes a great Hanukkah present) and I will be correcting my mistakes whenever I feel like it. Thank you for not imploding
Abusing charisma is easy, but abusing it with a gestalt of two 1-20 classes is tricky (It gets even trickier when you also try to get 3 good saving throws, full BaB, d10 hit dice, int +6 skill points per level). I really like the build for its simplicity; no multi-classing or anything, it's pure and simple.
Added to the list, the amount of charisma synergy possible between bard and the variant paladin of freedom is so incredible that you implode because I wish I thought of it first!
I can't implode! I still haven't gotten the joke in your sig yet. Explain it to me, then I'll implode.
Hexblade / Monk for some of the same reasons as Hexblade / Fighter, plus the Ascetic Mage feat and insane Monk saves / Evasion.
Hexblade / Bard for spontaneous spellcasting supremacy in light armor and fun with Snowflake Wardance. That and moving to Sublime Chord later on to revamp Hexblade spellcasting while continuing Bard casting normally.
Decent skills and magic item access, d12 HD, maneuvers, spells, add INT to damage when flanking, reflex saves, and more.
Faerie mysteries for INT to HP.
It could be tweaked a ton of ways. Add abjurant champion, or 2 levels of fighter for dungeon crasher... tons of cool options if you are allowed to move off of the 2 base classes.
I love that build. It is very strong 2 ways, and a jack of all trades beyond that.
If allowing prestige classes, here is a silly build:
Scout 10/Ranger 10 and
Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 4, Champion of Corellon 3, and Dervish 10.
That nets you stupid damage with your 6+ 2 weapon attacks.
Be sure to take improved skirmish and the feat that combines scout/ranger levels.
Obviously high dex first, but average stats after that still lead to a high damage 2 weapon fighter.
Your AC with this build is also capable of getting very very high.
Swap the 4 levels of fighter for anything you want.
Hexblade / Monk and Hexblade / Bard also have interesting possibilities.
Hexblade / Monk for some of the same reasons as Hexblade / Fighter, plus the Ascetic Mage feat and insane Monk saves / Evasion.
Hexblade / Bard for spontaneous spellcasting supremacy in light armor and fun with Snowflake Wardance. That and moving to Sublime Chord later on to revamp Hexblade spellcasting while continuing Bard casting normally.
Hexblade//Monk lives in a MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD world and only allows two alignments, but I do like Hexblade//Bard or even Hexblade//Dragon Shaman. You get hexblade's curse and other power downs alongside Bardic Music and other power ups, those who have played seiken densetsu 3 (the unreleased prequel to the super nintendo Secret of Mana game) know how amazing power-ups on allies + power-downs on enemies can be.
What about the Wizard/Warblade? There is plenty of INT synergy here. You could specialize in conjuration for the abrupt jaunt defense mechanism.
Decent skills and magic item access, d12 HD, maneuvers, spells, add INT to damage when flanking, reflex saves, and more.
Faerie mysteries for INT to HP.
It could be tweaked a ton of ways. Add abjurant champion, or 2 levels of fighter for dungeon crasher... tons of cool options if you are allowed to move off of the 2 base classes.
I love that build. It is very strong 2 ways, and a jack of all trades beyond that.
Wizards blow, but otherwize its a sub-par standard Gishtalt. I still prefer archivist//warblade cuz you can wear medium armor without spell failure. Hell, archivist//commoner is sure to cause GBI.
Swashbuckler to Master Thrower/Factotum.
Pros: Massive stat synergy. Double-dipping on Int is amazing, and this combo goes beyond double-dipping.
6+int Skill points & everything is a class skill.
Spellcasting (Not as potent as a full caster, but plenty enough to get the job done.
Healing.
Turning.
Full BAB.
The ability to add your Int to attack and damage. (Not the Swashbuckler feature.)
Good saves (not great).
Cons: Light armor (oh noes, it's not like you've got high Dex for Weapon Finesse or anything).
Slow casting progression and limited spells/day.
I dunno, seems like a pretty well-rounded character to me...
Wizards blow, but otherwize its a sub-par standard Gishtalt. I still prefer archivist//warblade cuz you can wear medium armor without spell failure. Hell, archivist//commoner is sure to cause GBI.
Um, Wizards don't care about armor. They cast greater mage armor or greater luminous armor and make armor look stupid, especially for a Dex-focused character. The fact that every weakness of the Wizard is negated or mitigated by the Warblade side is nothing to scoff at, nevermind the SAD when playing an Elf in Greyhawk. If Dragon feats are allowed, then the character could pick up Kung-fu Genius and a monk's belt to get Int to AC in addition to the AC boosts from spells and Dex.
Wizards blow, but otherwize its a sub-par standard Gishtalt. I still prefer archivist//warblade cuz you can wear medium armor without spell failure. Hell, archivist//commoner is sure to cause GBI.
The dark knowledge (foe) is nice, but the spells lack the versatility you get from Wizard.
I personally think the power of the direct damage spells is more worthwhile in this build. Archivist gets healing, but not spontaneous. Seems nursemaidish to me. And who needs armor when you can cast Greater Mage Armor or Luminous Armor? Lets not forget that a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt has 0% ASF. I can even put Heavy Fortification on that so I can't be critical hit.
More importantly a wizard can use the various teleport spells to avoid being hit. This includes rays and orbs, yo. For a Conjuration Specialist, Abrupt Jaunt is an Immediate teleport!!! Benign Transposition, Dimension Jumper, Improved Blink, and Greater Dimesion door...
How about a searing/Empowered Combust or scorching ray? Suddenly see a Balor exploding for 100 damage? An annoying wizard retributive striking with a Staff of Power?? How about celerity/wall of force???
Add in Abjurant Champ and my Greater Luminous Armor is like +13 for Armor
Not to mention a +9 shield (quickened)
I think we shall agree to disagree here. Especially about the Wizards blowing.
Wizards rock. Wizards kick butt. Wizards rule. Wotc not so much. :P
I feel as if I dont have enough rogue class combos, any good ideas?
I find them to be difficult, if not impossible to play in a balanced manner. Wizards either blow or blow game-balance up, I have yet to find a medium between the two. I don't wanna argue p3's on a reference thread, not that it matters because nobody reads pas the first 3 pages of these things anyway.
I feel as if I dont have enough rogue class combos, any good ideas?
Unless they have an old subscription. ;)
Anything / Rogue is nice. Add 8 skills per level and sneak attack as well as the Rogue abilities, which is nice. Rogue/Able Learner/Swordsage makes a very passable Rogue side as well.
Hexblade//Monk lives in a MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD, MAD world and only allows two alignments, but I do like Hexblade//Bard or even Hexblade//Dragon Shaman. You get hexblade's curse and other power downs alongside Bardic Music and other power ups, those who have played seiken densetsu 3 (the unreleased prequel to the super nintendo Secret of Mana game) know how amazing power-ups on allies + power-downs on enemies can be.
Ascetic Mage converts Monk Abilities to run on Charisma. Wis and Int become dump stats. Although, admittedly, you can't qualify for the feat right away. And unlike Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius, it's from a non-Dragon, non-Campaign-specific source.
Hexblade // Monk is really no worse off than pure Monk for MAD.
Elan Psion/Psychic Warrior more hitpoints then you can three adventurers can use and more powers then you will know what to do with. Add a bunch of Psionic Feats and Psionic Body and there are another 2hp per feat.
Ranger/Warlock I think would work as well if not a little better then the Scout/Warlock depending on how you like to play. Two-weapon fighting/Improved/Greater+Hideous Blow means 8 melee/melee touch attacks as a full round action. If you hit with a melee touch but not a melee attack the eldritch blast still hits so you do damage regardless. Plus the full BAB is always good.
Kor
I find them to be difficult, if not impossible to play in a balanced manner. Wizards either blow or blow game-balance up, I have yet to find a medium between the two. I don't wanna argue p3's on a reference thread, not that it matters because nobody reads pas the first 3 pages of these things anyway.
Like all things, it depends on who's running the character and what campaign is being run ;)
Ascetic Mage converts Monk Abilities to run on Charisma. Wis and Int become dump stats. Although, admittedly, you can't qualify for the feat right away. And unlike Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius, it's from a non-Dragon, non-Campaign-specific source.
Hexblade // Monk is really no worse off than pure Monk for MAD.
Depending on how you read the wording of Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer), you may or may not need to take at least one level sorcerer for it to take affect.
EDIT: Your post said you only need strength and charisma, but if you buy the right items, you only really need charisma and constitution (if you plan on getting hit at all).
Paladin/Rogue -- Paladin with Sneak Attack and 8 skill pts/level, and Divine Grace Evasion...really what more needs to be said?
A scary pet, access to an insane amount of divine spells (including inflict spells) and access to arcane necromancy as well.
All spellcasting runs off intelligence, get the wolf skeleton, which grows in power until it gets fast healing 3, cleric, druid and paladin buffs, a sick amount of debuffs thanks to all that necromancy, ability to heal said pet, (and yourself at higher levels) rebuke undead, to bolster it and dispel turning attempts, an undead army above and beyond the minion (animate and create undead and rebuke/command undead), then you have the dark knowledge from archivist and the rest of the divine spells, such as flame strike. What more do you want?
Also gets all good saves and 6+Int skill points off of a moderately useful list. d8 hit die isn't awesome but isn't horrible either.
Swash/Psion(Nomad)/Slayer//Wiz/Archivist/MysticThurge
Int synergy out the yinyang, mobilty out the yinyang, 3 kinds of powers/spell out the... well you get the idea
you cannot combine two prestige classes in gestalt, nor is class combinations like Mystic Theurge allowed (technically its suggestion that the DM bans Mystic Theurge, but its suggestion and not RAW but still a suggestion few DMs with half a spine ignore)
RAW + unearthed arcana is a hypocritical statement. it's a book full of non standard options
Generally, I am finding the majority of folks running a gestalt game want more power, and removing the "no dual PrC" requirements fit their desire nicely, wouldn't you agree?
so many people post with the dual prc progression/monster LA as one class exception its silly not to just accept it.
Letting them dual-PrC, letting them combo PrC (Arcane Trickster, MT, etc.) or letting them count their LAs/Racial HD with only half their level = nightmare
Rogue 5 / Assassin 10 / Rogue 5 // Swashbuckler 10 / Fighter 10
With the feat "Daring Outlaw" should end up with 15d6 of SA, Grace +3, Dodge Bonus +4, Full BAB, Fort and Ref as good saves (and, off course, Slippery Mind), Hide in Plain Sight, lots of skill, Assassin Spells and d10 HP ...
Paladin 4 / Cleric 1 / Paladin +10 / Fist of Raziel 5 // Wizard 5 / Silver Pyromancer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / SP +4 / Wizard +5
The cleric level is to gain turn undead after losing it via the level 4 substitution level for paladin from Mystic Fire Knight. It's only real purpose is to power purge undead (which uses your arcane caster level which is boosted beyond your level through the Sword of the Arcane Order feat)
You blow up undead, cast 9th level spells, have a +19 BAB, and can prepare paladin spells in wizard slots and wizard spells in paladin slots. Some nice anti-caster abilities makes for a good front-line fighter with all the tricks of a wizard. Sure, you're still MAD, but you use INT instead of WIS as your casting stat. Magic Items and Mystic Fire Knight will give you all the paladin spells you need.
Ranger spellcasting ain't too shabby, although I hear there's a feat-variant in Complete Champion I have yet to look at. If so, I'd probably choose it over spells for a melee-based Ranger.Shadow Blade Technique and Weapon Finesse for the Win :D
Sohei//Swordsage - with one level of the prc from OA (Shiba Protector) which allows you to add Wisdom to attack and damage, it is lovely. All good saves, mettle of fort and will, evasion, frenzy, wisdom to AC, wisdom based divine spells up to 4th level. Oh, and don't forget 9th level maneuvers. I can totally see myself playing that combo with a githzerai.
I second this idea for three reasons. For one, Rhonin the Big, you haven't had the Sohei class on the big list yet, while you included such horrific classes such as the CW Samurai! For two it has such great flavor and synergy. For three it's The Prophet's idea, and he's only done about five posts this year, so you better listen to this one.
Marshal/Warmage- Stand back, direct you team, then use your artillery. The minor aura Determined Caster allows you to add your charisma to overcome spell resistance, which is nice because many of your spells can be negated by it. The Marshal provides Charisma and intelligence synergy(Charisma for auras and spells, Intelligence for skill points and Warmage Edge) It also adds better hit points, more skill points from a nice list, and heavy armor(Battle Caster a great feat to invest in BTW). With Marshal's aura providing bonuses to allies within 60 ft, and Warmage blasting goodness, many a party would seek a Marshmage to lead it to victory.
Hexblade/Rogue-Evasion, Mettle, Intimidating Strike, Arcane Resistance, Sneak Attack, Hexblade Curse, Cursed Blade, Inproved Feint, Uncanny Dodge... The list goes on. My favorite are Ambush Feats from Complete Scoundrel, mixed with all the power down spells of the hexblade. The RogueBlade can make an enemy so easy to kill, a commoner can do it, and better yet the Rogueblade can survive almost any saving throw, unlike his cursed enemies
.Thank you Rhonin the Big for starting this thread, reminding us we can't take two prestige classes at once, and making people implode.:evillaugh
Sohei//Swordsage - with one level of the prc from OA (Shiba Protector) which allows you to add Wisdom to attack and damage, it is lovely. All good saves, mettle of fort and will, evasion, frenzy, wisdom to AC, wisdom based divine spells up to 4th level. Oh, and don't forget 9th level maneuvers. I can totally see myself playing that combo with a githzerai.
Some other gestalt class combos I like are....
Marshal/Warmage- Stand back, direct you team, then use your artillery. The minor aura Determined Caster allows you to add your charisma to overcome spell resistance, which is nice because many of your spells can be negated by it. The Marshal provides Charisma and intelligence synergy(Charisma for auras and spells, Intelligence for skill points and Warmage Edge) It also adds better hit points, more skill points from a nice list, and heavy armor(Battle Caster a great feat to invest in BTW). With Marshal's aura providing bonuses to allies within 60 ft, and Warmage blasting goodness, many a party would seek a Marshmage to lead it to victory.
Hexblade/Rogue-Evasion, Mettle, Intimidating Strike, Arcane Resistance, Sneak Attack, Hexblade Curse, Cursed Blade, Inproved Feint, Uncanny Dodge... The list goes on. My favorite are Ambush Feats from Complete Scoundrel, mixed with all the power down spells of the hexblade. The RogueBlade can make an enemy so easy to kill, a commoner can do it, and better yet the Rogueblade can survive almost any saving throw, unlike his cursed enemies
Thank you Rhonin the Big for starting this thread, reminding us we can't take two prestige classes at once, and making people implode.:evillaugh
I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted, you implode anyway!
What about Warlock/Dragon Fire Adept? Lots of invocations. Breath shapes replace blast shape invocations. Decent skills. Hit die. What do you think?
Anybody familiar with that warlock variant from the book of draconic cheese-fests would like to comment on warlock//df adept
10 Rogue/10 Nightsong Infiltrator//20 Marshal
Or 10 Rogue/10 Nightsong Enforcer//20 Marshal.
Or 10 Monk/10 Nightsong Infilitrator//20 Marshal.
Or 10 Monk/10 Nightsong Enforcer//20 Marshal.
Serenity is found in Champions of Valor. Same place as Carmandine Monk.
As it turns out, it's actually in the Dragon Magazine Compendium..
Warlock//Archivist - This combo gets really good at 12th level. At twelfth level, a warlock gets the ability to scribe any arcane or divine scrolls that he doesn't have access to via use magic device checks. The thing about archivists is that some of their best spells come from scrolls written by some obscure classes. A nit-picky DM might say that some scrolls are too rare to find, but a warlock could scribe them no matter how rare they are. The more domains, prestige classes, classes, and variants exist in the world, the better this combo gets (divine bards, divine magician, classes from complete divine, adepts, domains from different splat books, ect). A similar thing could have been done with an Artificer//Archivist mix (from level one, instead of level twelve) before the artificer errata, but sadly, this combo does not work any more (their scrolls are considered neither arcane nor divine).
I think the very best gestalt character possible is the Warforged Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (or Fighter) / Artificier 19 // Archivist 20.
BAB 20, UMD, Pounce, full Archivist casting, Artificier crafting to make a scroll of every divine spell in existence for yourself.
First level you get +1 BAB from Barbarian.
Then, at level 2 you get +1 BAB from Archivist, +0 from Artificier.
Artificier is a 3/4 BAB class and your +0 BAB Artificier levels are all even. At even levels, you get +1 BAB from your Archivist side.
Full progression:
1. Barbarian +1 | Archivist +0 | 1
2. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 2
3. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 3
4. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 4
5. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 5
6. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 6
7. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 7
8. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 8
9. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 9
10. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 10
11. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 11
12. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 12
13. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 13
14. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 14
15. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 15
16. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 16
17. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 17
18. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 18
19. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 19
20. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 20
Nope.
First level you get +1 BAB from Barbarian.
Then, at level 2 you get +1 BAB from Archivist, +0 from Artificier.
Artificier is a 3/4 BAB class and your +0 BAB Artificier levels are all even. At even levels, you get +1 BAB from your Archivist side.
Full progression:
1. Barbarian +1 | Archivist +0 | 1
2. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 2
3. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 3
4. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 4
5. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 5
6. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 6
7. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 7
8. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 8
9. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 9
10. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 10
11. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 11
12. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 12
13. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 13
14. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 14
15. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 15
16. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 16
17. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 17
18. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 18
19. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 19
20. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 20
That's not how it works. You have 1 level in a full BAB class and 19 levels in a 3/4 BAB class (counting the respective bests), so you BAB is 15.
That's not how it works. You have 1 level in a full BAB class and 19 levels in a 3/4 BAB class (counting the respective bests), so you BAB is 15.
Why on earth?
For example... what would be the BAB at EACH LEVEL for a Fighter 7 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 4 // Ranger 6 / Marshal 5 / Archivist 8 / Warlock 1?
If you don't translate the sentence as "pick your BAB from the class with the better progression of the two you are gaining a level in" it becomes impossible and meaningless to calculate your actual BAB at each level.
A character with more than two classes gets more than two progressions... how do you deal with something like that?
For example... what would be the BAB at EACH LEVEL for a Fighter 7 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 4 // Ranger 6 / Marshal 5 / Archivist 8 / Warlock 1?
If you don't translate the sentence as "pick your BAB from the class with the better progression of the two you are gaining a level in" it becomes impossible and meaningless to calculate your actual BAB at each level.
For a monstrocity such as that I would use fractional BaB. Other than that you pick the better progression not the better of the numeric values. Dipping a level in a full BaB class on one side does not grant the character full BaB, all it does is grant a +1 BaB. That's at least how I would rule it, I am not sure what the RAW is ... anyway!
New one to add to the list-
Warlock//Archivist - This combo gets really good at 12th level. At twelfth level, a warlock gets the ability to scribe any arcane or divine scrolls that he doesn't have access to via use magic device checks. The thing about archivists is that some of their best spells come from scrolls written by some obscure classes. A nit-picky DM might say that some scrolls are too rare to find, but a warlock could scribe them no matter how rare they are. The more domains, prestige classes, classes, and variants exist in the world, the better this combo gets (divine bards, divine magician, classes from complete divine, adepts, domains from different splat books, ect). A similar thing could have been done with an Artificer//Archivist mix (from level one, instead of level twelve) before the artificer errata, but sadly, this combo does not work any more (their scrolls are considered neither arcane nor divine).
Added to the list as "Archlock"
Added to the list as "Archlock"
Cool, I like the title you gave me (COsupermarket :D).
I don't like most of the first page combos.
I think the very best gestalt character possible is the Warforged Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (or Fighter) / Artificier 19 // Archivist 20.
BAB 20, UMD, Pounce, full Archivist casting, Artificier crafting to make a scroll of every divine spell in existence for yourself.
Beside not actually having full BaB, you can't actually make scrolls for yourself. Why? Check out the errata:
Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered
neither arcane nor divine.
Since the scrolls aren't divine, they won't be able to be added to the Archivist's prayer book.
Hexblade/Warmage they are pretty mean, the cha synergy is ok, and with the Hexblade PhBII variant companion and your curses, even with just an 18 in your cha, your spells get pretty hard to resist, and when they hit, they get your int bonus to dmg (more with a feat) and you get a Full BaB for your Ranged touch Orbs and other ranged touch spells, D10 HD, and if worse comes to worse, you have your sudden powers, and the aura of unluck, some armor, and a summonable shadow hound, and this combo really has a versatility on how it can be played, if you like blasting play it as a full nuke type with hard to resist spells, if you like Gish types, give it arcane strike (might be able to cheese it up by saying it was a warmage spells so i get my warmage edge on it, but only if your DM is really loose) and use up spells from both classes, or you can play it balanced and nuke when needed or help out in melee combat so your allies dont get swarmed
all in all i had alot of fun playing mine and he got so broken and OP we had to start a new campaign
Well i read through it, and im pretty sure i didnt see it, so il give you what i played
Hexblade/Warmage they are pretty mean, the cha synergy is ok, and with the Hexblade PhBII variant companion and your curses, even with just an 18 in your cha, your spells get pretty hard to resist, and when they hit, they get your int bonus to dmg (more with a feat) and you get a Full BaB for your Ranged touch Orbs and other ranged touch spells, D10 HD, and if worse comes to worse, you have your sudden powers, and the aura of unluck, some armor, and a summonable shadow hound, and this combo really has a versatility on how it can be played, if you like blasting play it as a full nuke type with hard to resist spells, if you like Gish types, give it arcane strike (might be able to cheese it up by saying it was a warmage spells so i get my warmage edge on it, but only if your DM is really loose) and use up spells from both classes, or you can play it balanced and nuke when needed or help out in melee combat so your allies dont get swarmed
all in all i had alot of fun playing mine and he got so broken and OP we had to start a new campaign
I prefer hexblade/sorcerer "Sorcblade" or "Hexerer" so I can deliver a hexblade's curse through a smiting greater bestow curse than cast Middle Finger of Death.
Gestalt is hard enough to balance in terms of opponents.
Letting them dual-PrC, letting them combo PrC (Arcane Trickster, MT, etc.) or letting them count their LAs/Racial HD with only half their level = nightmare
We seem to be handling it fine.
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4267
The Unholy Trinity
1 - Wizard 1 - Cleric 1
2 - Wizard 2 - Cleric 2
3 - Wizard 3 - Cleric 3
4 - Psion 1 - Mytic Theurge 1
5 - Psion 2 - Mytic Theurge 2
6 - Psion 3 - Mytic Theurge 3
7 - Psion 4 - Mytic Theurge 4
8 - Psion 5 - Mytic Theurge 5
9 - Psion 6 - Mytic Theurge 6
10 - Psion 7 - Mytic Theurge 7
11 - Psion 8 - Mytic Theurge 8
12 - Psion 9 - Mytic Theurge 9
13 - Psion 10 - Mytic Theurge 10
14 - Cleric 4 - Cerebremancer 1
15 - Cleric 5 - Cerebremancer 2
16 - Cleric 6 - Cerebremancer 3
17 - Cleric 7 - Cerebremancer 4
18 - Cleric 8 - Cerebremancer 5
19 - Cleric 9 - Cerebremancer 6
20 - Psion 11 - Cerebremancer 7
Wizard CL 20
Cleric CL 19
Psion ML 18
Yay for 9th level effects in all three flavors!
Edit: I was just reading through Comp. Scoundrel and had a thought.
If you went Fighter//Ninja for example, and took the Martial Stalker feat, would you qualify for Weapon Specialization at level 2?
Would you have a 20th level ninja's ki pool and ac bonus at level 10?
Apply this same principle to all the other class crossover feats.
Edit: I was just reading through Comp. Scoundrel and had a thought.
If you went Fighter//Ninja for example, and took the Martial Stalker feat, would you qualify for Weapon Specialization at level 2?
Would you have a 20th level ninja's ki pool and ac bonus at level 10?
Apply this same principle to all the other class crossover feats.
At the risk of risking Rhonin the Big's wrath, you implode.
Though since I still don't get that joke, I implode.
The short answer is no, because it'd be, well, broken.
The long answer is maybe, because it's kind of a grey area, and it depends on how off his head your DM is. I mean, it does say "your fighter and ninja levels stack for the purpose of determining your ki pool and unarmed damage." I mean, I am a Fighter 4//Ninja 4... Why can't I have the AC bonus and ki pool of an 8th level ninja?
On second look, I still don't think it would, because [and this gets kinda hazy] in gestalt, theoretically you don't have two classes, you have... one giant mishmash. I mean, yes, UA says you "essentially" take two classes at every level, but in practice it's a little different. Skills and hitdie are the better of the two, for example.
Maybe we ought to run things on hitdie rather than character level in gestalt. [As in, effects such as these are limited to your hitdie cap. In this instance, you can't have more than 4 levels worth of ninja goodies. Which does kill the purpose of such feats in gestalt, it is true.]
The first two use the Cloistered Cleric Variant:
Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage: This is a pretty nice mix, if I do say so myself. Wis to AC in light armor is nice, Cleric spell casting, a ton of wis synergy, 3 good saves, 3/4 BAB (full w/ divine power), 6+int skill points, 3 domains, a bardic knowledge like abiliy, and D8 hitdice all make this a pretty sweet mix.
Cloistered Cleric//Monk: For the unarmed and unarmored holy man. The quick rundown is pretty close to that of the cloistered cleric/swordsage except instead of maneuver, you get monk abilities and no light armor. Flavor-wise a monk who is not allowed to leave a religious temple until his training is done is a pretty old concept.
The next two use the Erudite spell to power variant:
Erudite (Spell to power variant)//Warlock: This more or less identical to the Archivist/Warlock mix, except your crafting arcane spells into scrolls instead of divine.
Erudite (Spell to power variant)//Archivist: This mix has admittedly a lot of pitfalls, but one really cool ability: to cast arcane, divine, and psionic spells. Arcane and psionic spells can be added to your erudite list, while all divine spells can be added the archivist's list. All of this character's spellcasting is based off the character's int score (reducing MAD).
We seem to be handling it fine.
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4267
May I ask which rules you are using for LA and racial HD?
May I ask which rules you are using for LA and racial HD?
Direct from our Char building info:
"Liberal Gestalt" rules
* You may use Prestige Classes on both sides of the build simultaneously.
* You may use a monster class progression instead of a standard class progression on one side of the build... as long as there is an accepted monster class progression that exists... you can make one up with my approval.(For example, Blinkdog7/fighter2/survivor1//rogue5/shadowlord5)
Okay, I got a few new ones.
The first two use the Cloistered Cleric Variant:
Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage: This is a pretty nice mix, if I do say so myself. Wis to AC in light armor is nice, Cleric spell casting, a ton of wis synergy, 3 good saves, 3/4 BAB (full w/ divine power), 6+int skill points, 3 domains, a bardic knowledge like abiliy, and D8 hitdice all make this a pretty sweet mix.
Cloistered Cleric//Monk: For the unarmed and unarmored holy man. The quick rundown is pretty close to that of the cloistered cleric/swordsage except instead of maneuver, you get monk abilities and no light armor. Flavor-wise a monk who is not allowed to leave a religious temple until his training is done is a pretty old concept.
Is there any reason why cloistered cleric is needed? Swordsages have the skill thing down already and monk's only need a few skills maxed to be effective.
The next two use the Erudite spell two power variant:
No way will I touch the manifesting spells alt erudite, the designers said it was balanced with the ARCHIVIST in mind. Nothing can be balanced if it was based off of the cleric's bigger brother!
At the risk of risking Rhonin the Big's wrath, you implode.
Though since I still don't get that joke, I implode.
Since your rightfully fear my wrath, you explode after imploding.
I.E.
Wizard 1 // Rogue 1
Wizard 2 // Rogue 2
Wizard 3 // Rogue 3
Wizard 4 // Rogue 4
Wizard 5 // Rogue 5
Wizard 6 // Arcane Trickster 1 - Do you cast as a 7th level wizard at this point?
If you take a level where you take a caster class and a PrC that grants +1 CL for that class, do they stack?
I.E.
Wizard 1 // Rogue 1
Wizard 2 // Rogue 2
Wizard 3 // Rogue 3
Wizard 4 // Rogue 4
Wizard 5 // Rogue 5
Wizard 6 // Arcane Trickster 1 - Do you cast as a 7th level wizard at this point?
No, they're the same class feature--besides which, you can't typically use "double" classes like Arcane Trickster in Gestalt.
Warblade 20//Stonechild 6/War Hulk 10/Fighter 4
Assuming your DM will allow you to take a racial class as one side of the equation (I don't see why not), this character gets full BAB and a +2 to STR every level up to 16, except 1 and 4. Not to mention, full Warblade-y goodness. The Warblade side (or any normal class, that is) completely negates the problems with a racial class (ie low hit dice, bab, skills, and saves) This may not be the MOST amazing build, but +28 STR from class levels alone is nothing to shake a stick at. Obviously, you could replace the Warblade side with a full-on charger, tripper, or frenzied berserker build, to taste.
If you're wondering, Stonechild is a race in Races of Stone, and War Hulk is a PrC in Miniatures Handbook. They're both slightly on the obscure side, so I thought I'd mention.
There is NO REASON to disallow Arcane Trickster if the bonus spell levels don't stack.
There is NO REASON to disallow Arcane Trickster if the bonus spell levels don't stack.
Well, yeah, there is. Because, with it, you could go with: Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10//Rogue 15.
Full casting AND Full-and-a-half Sneak Attack. See the problem here?
my current favorite only works if you let LA take up only 1 side of the gestalt progression:
wiz 1/deathtouched racial LA[dragon magazine 313]
wiz 2/ werewolf lord 1[from the archived articles on wizards homepage]
wiz 3/wwl 2
wiz 4/wwl 3
wiz 5/wwl 4
wiz 6/wwl 5
wiz 7/wwl 6
wiz 8/wwl 7
*at this point undergo the "true ritual of sorcerous power" from Relics & Rituals to change all wizard lvls into sorcerer lvls (and hopefully gain +2 CHA and +2 AC(natural by passing a fort save - no penalty for failure).
sor 9/eldritch master 1[dragon magazine 280]
sor 10/em 2
sor 11/em 3
sor 12/em 4
sor 13/em 5
sor 14/em 6
sor 15/em 7
sor 16/em 8
sor 17/em 9
sor 18/em 10
sor 19/wwl 8
sor 20/wwl 9
deathtouched mainly for the +4 racial CHA bonus.
tons of bonus spells known[including 1 6th, 1 8th, & 1 9th].
combined lvls = 30th caster lvl for those with lvl variables.
and when all else fails...wolf out and rip your opponents to shreds with claws & fangs.[i like to use that bonus 6th lvl spell for contingency set to trigger enlarge person when i change to hybrid form].
Sorry to rant a bit, but I was skimming through SS, and realized the complete unfairness of this. BTW, if I'm reading this incorrectly (maybe the HD DO get staggered as per racial levels as a rule), please feel free to correct me.
If you're a DM who doesn't want this, and doesn't want the staggered HD rule, I'd instead argue to the player asking for it that racial classes clearly state that you can't take levels in any other class until you finish the racial class. This, in fact, may actually be the answer to the questionable nature of racial classes/gestalt.
Is there any reason why cloistered cleric is needed? Swordsages have the skill thing down already and monk's only need a few skills maxed to be effective.
I guess that cloistered cleric isn't really "needed" in either of these builds. But in the end, you don't lose out on anything if you take cloistered cleric, and you actually gain a few nice abilities. Cloistered cleric gain less BaB, lower hitdice, and less armor proficiencies than the average cleric. You gain all of that back as a swordsage or monk (except for the proficiencies with heavy armor, and medium armor (as a swordsage), and light armor (as a monk), which you won't be wearing anyway because of the wis to ac ability doesn't function for monks in any armor or for swordsages in anything, but light armor. In exchange you gain lore (bardic knowledge with another name), the knowledge domain (more domains are always nice), a few more spells to add to your spell list, and more skill points (sadly this only benefits the monk, not the swordsage because he already has those skill points.
No way will I touch the manifesting spells alt erudite, the designers said it was balanced with the ARCHIVIST in mind. Nothing can be balanced if it was based off of the cleric's bigger brother!
An erudite//warlock mix is no more overpowerd IMO as a archivist//warlock mix. The only difference is that the erudite uses arcane spells and has a better designed casting system (I love power points).
An erudite//archivist, although sweet has many pitfalls that I skipped over last time: d6 hit dice, 1/2 bab, no heavy armor, and no turning undead. Okay, maybe an erudite//archivist doesn't have a ton of pitfalls, but you will probably not see this mix in the front lines because of how frail this build is in a gestalt game. You will probably see him in the back, enjoying the power of all his arcane/divine/psionic spells/powers.
Well, yeah, there is. Because, with it, you could go with: Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10//Rogue 15.
Full casting AND Full-and-a-half Sneak Attack. See the problem here?
Ah, but now you wouldn't!
For abilities that are the same, granted by two classes when you take them Gestalt, accrue at the rate of the faster class, you don't get them from both classes.
So, if you went Wiz 5/ArcTric 10//Rogue 15, you would have full caster, and full Sneak Attack, not 1.5x sneak attack.
But you would also have that ranged pickpocket ability, in place of the wizard bonus feats.
Otherwise, you could go Fighter 5/Assassin 10// Rogue 15, and have 1.5x sneak attack.
Full casting, full sneak attack, 3/4 maneuvers. not quite as broken as what I previously mentioned, but still. When you can solidify both sides of the build onto one side, it opens up the other side for all kinds of crazy stupidity.
It's not over the top, but obviously has good Int synergies..
Can anyone suggest a better Wizard//xxx combo? The Wizard side has to be the same for all 20 levels.
I'll supply the exchange below:
BAB Exchange
I don't like most of the first page combos.
I think the very best gestalt character possible is the Warforged Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (or Fighter) / Artificier 19 // Archivist 20.
BAB 20, UMD, Pounce, full Archivist casting, Artificier crafting to make a scroll of every divine spell in existence for yourself.
Irwing, I believe your BAB is actually 15.
Nope.
First level you get +1 BAB from Barbarian.
Then, at level 2 you get +1 BAB from Archivist, +0 from Artificier.
Artificier is a 3/4 BAB class and your +0 BAB Artificier levels are all even. At even levels, you get +1 BAB from your Archivist side.
Full progression:
1. Barbarian +1 | Archivist +0 | 1
2. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 2
3. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 3
4. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 4
5. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 5
6. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 6
7. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 7
8. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 8
9. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 9
10. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 10
11. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 11
12. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 12
13. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 13
14. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 14
15. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 15
16. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 16
17. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 17
18. Artificier +0 | Archivist +1 | 18
19. Artificier +1 | Archivist +0 | 19
20. Artificier +1 | Archivist +1 | 20
That's not how it works. You have 1 level in a full BAB class and 19 levels in a 3/4 BAB class (counting the respective bests), so you BAB is 15.
Why on earth?
Notice it says "choose the better progression from the two classes," not "every time you level up if one side gains a point in base attack bonus you get it."
A character with more than two classes gets more than two progressions... how do you deal with something like that?
For example... what would be the BAB at EACH LEVEL for a Fighter 7 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 4 // Ranger 6 / Marshal 5 / Archivist 8 / Warlock 1?
If you don't translate the sentence as "pick your BAB from the class with the better progression of the two you are gaining a level in" it becomes impossible and meaningless to calculate your actual BAB at each level.
For a monstrocity such as that I would use fractional BaB. Other than that you pick the better progression not the better of the numeric values. Dipping a level in a full BaB class on one side does not grant the character full BaB, all it does is grant a +1 BaB. That's at least how I would rule it, I am not sure what the RAW is ... anyway!
Added to the list as "Archlock"
Cool, I like the title you gave me (COsupermarket :D).
Beside not actually having full BaB, you can't actually make scrolls for yourself. Why? Check out the errata:
Since the scrolls aren't divine, they won't be able to be added to the Archivist's prayer book.
There's a vestige that lets you regenerate 1 ability damage per round, and the hellfire warlock uses con to fuel it's hellfire.....
Has anyone mentioned the warlock/binder, which then goes into hellfire warlock?
There's a vestige that lets you regenerate 1 ability damage per round, and the hellfire warlock uses con to fuel it's hellfire.....
I can get the same result as a non-gestalt duskling or azurin warlock with the feat shape soulmeld (strongheart vest). Strongheart Vest grants ability damage reduction = invested essentia, both of those races have 1 natural point of essentia. So just by using a feat I can fire off hellfire blasts all day with no worries :D
Human
Rogue 10 / Assassin 10 // Swashbuckler 10 / Fighter 10
+ the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel)
There is no overlap on Sneak-Attack Progressions so you should get the Sneak Attacks of a Rogue 20th (thanks to the above mentioned feat) PLUS the Sneak Attacks of an Assassin 10th.
Nice points:
- 15d6 of SA
- Int synergy (it goes into skill points, damage, spells and DA)
- Hide in plain sight
- Full BAB
- Good HP die
- 2 Good Saves + Slippery Mind for Will saves
- Lots of Feats
Sure, it could be optimized even more but it doesn't look bad to me. ^__^
[...]
Thanks! I didn't have the patience to ask CustServ but I thought that, logically, it would work as I expected... but in front of explainations like "I can't figure out the BAB of that thing by using my interpretation of the rules... use fractional" I kinda lost hope.
In fact I completly stopped looking at this thread because I'm tired of looking at unoptimized characters with virtually no sinergy between the two sides of the progression.
Most builds I'm reading of here would actually be unoptimized even in a non-gestalt group.
I hope to see something more interesting in the future.
Thanks! I didn't have the patience to ask CustServ but I thought that, logically, it would work as I expected... but in front of explainations like "I can't figure out the BAB of that thing by using my interpretation of the rules... use fractional" I kinda lost hope.
In fact I completly stopped looking at this thread because I'm tired of looking at unoptimized characters with virtually no sinergy between the two sides of the progression.
Most builds I'm reading of here would actually be unoptimized even in a non-gestalt group.
I hope to see something more interesting in the future.
If builds like this one
Show
I'm sure somebody else already mentioned this but:
Human
Rogue 10 / Assassin 10 // Swashbuckler 10 / Fighter 10
+ the Daring Outlaw feat (Complete Scoundrel)
There is no overlap on Sneak-Attack Progressions so you should get the Sneak Attacks of a Rogue 20th (thanks to the above mentioned feat) PLUS the Sneak Attacks of an Assassin 10th.
Nice points:
- 15d6 of SA
- Int synergy (it goes into skill points, damage, spells and DA)
- Hide in plain sight
- Full BAB
- Good HP die
- 2 Good Saves + Slippery Mind for Will saves
- Lots of Feats
Fighter 1/Cleric 19//Druid 20
Fighter 1/Wilder 19//Psion 20
Duskblade 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20
I gave the BAB level to (what I feel is) the weaker class. Also, note, the Duskblade is there for Armored Mage. It, too could be Fighter, or whatever else.
I feel the Cleric//Druid or Psion//Wilder would be the most powerful combinations, personally. CaD, because, well... that's obvious, but the P//W because of the way PP work, and how they synergize perfectly. Damn you, Psychic Warrior for not having the appropriate BAB progression to make this work better! :D
Yeah, if BAB progression works in that way, then gestalt is even more broken. How 'bout these?
Fighter 1/Cleric 19//Druid 20
Fighter 1/Wilder 19//Psion 20
Duskblade 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20
I gave the BAB level to (what I feel is) the weaker class. Also, note, the Duskblade is there for Armored Mage. It, too could be Fighter, or whatever else.
I feel the Cleric//Druid or Psion//Wilder would be the most powerful combinations, personally. CaD, because, well... that's obvious, but the P//W because of the way PP work, and how they synergize perfectly. Damn you, Psychic Warrior for not having the appropriate BAB progression to make this work better! :D
It doesn't work this way, you get the better of the progression and not the better of the numeric value. Dipping 1lv in fighter on one side of a Gestalt char is no different than dipping fighter1 in nongestalt.
How long have we known that customer service is right and consistent in all it's responses?
I agree wholeheartedly. Especially considering I was basically making a point of just how wrong they MUST be. However, it has always seemed to me that, RAW, it WOULD work in that ridiculously broken way. After all, the fractional BAB rules are variants in and of themselves, not designed specifically for gestalt (I say this simply because Gestalt is listed nowhere in the FBAB sidebar). Assuming that, how would we do BAB progression for a Gestalt character w/o FBAB or doing it the "broken way"?
Is there any reason why cloistered cleric is needed? Swordsages have the skill thing down already and monk's only need a few skills maxed to be effective.
Needed? No it isn't needed. The whole point of him taking the cloistered cleric is that there's a lot of overlap that clerics have with monks and sword sages. Both have d8 hitdie, both have medium bab. By picking the cloistered cleric you're basically getting something for nothing. He gets his medium bab back, and hd back upto d8 by gestalting, so by going cloistered cleric, he gives up nothing (well... maybe he gives up proficiencies he wouldn't use in that gestalt combination anyway...) for skill points and the other goodies cloistered clerics get.
Druid 1/ Wiz 2
Rogue 1/ Wiz 3
Rogue 2/ Wiz 4
Bard 2/ Wiz 5
Ur-Preist 1/ Wiz 6
Ur 2/ Wiz 7
Mystic Theurge 1/ Fatespinner 1
Mystic 2/ Fate 2
Mystic 3/ Fochlucan Lyrist 1
Mystic 4/ Lyrist 2
Mystic 5/ Lyrist 3
Mystic 6/ Lyrist 4
Mystic 7/ Lyrist 5
Mystic 8/ Lyrist 6
Mystic 9/ Lyrist 7
Mystic 10/ Lyrist 8
Fate 3 / Lyrist 9
Fate 4 / Lyrist 10
Do what you want with lvl 20
I think you need to be human with able learner to do this and a few things could be tweaked but this isn't a bad build. You could change out Fatesipnner for initiate of the Seven Fold Veil. Anyway thats about something that I would make for a geshalt game.
Assuming that, how would we do BAB progression for a Gestalt character w/o FBAB or doing it the "broken way"?
This, like Gestalt itself, is a house rule. Call it the SDK Gestalt Rule or Gestalt Progression Rule or some other nonsense if you will. But this rule is more in spirit with the rules of the game than the rules as written. The Rules as Written, as they are written, are bad enough to make Gestalt characters nigh-impossible to be balanced. Thus, a fix is needed.
Being a very big world, I can guarantee this has already been used. What I can't guarantee is if it's been explained very well on the boards, so I'll try with this post to explain The Rule.
The Rule
The best way I've done it for BAB and base saves is to take the best progression. Progression means progression, not "side." Basically, pick one class at each level in such a way as to get the highest value for BAB and individual saves. Picking X levels in a class gives the base attack/base saves output as if you were Xth level in that class, regardless of the actual number of levels you are in that class.
The same can be done for similar progressions such as sneak attack damage.
One Example
The character I play(not optimized, but a lot of multiclassing):
Show
1 Duskblade 1/Warmage 1
2 Duskblade 2/Warmage 2
3 Duskblade 3/Warmage 3
4 Duskblade 4/Warmage 4
5 Duskblade 5/Warmage 5
6 Duskblade 6/Warmage 6
7 Duskblade 7/Abjurant Champion 1
8 Duskblade 8/Abjurant Champion 2
9 Duskblade 9/Abjurant Champion 3
10 Duskblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
11 Duskblade 11/Abjurant Champion 5
12 Argent Savant 1/Warmage 7
13 Duskblade 12/Argent Savant 2
14 Duskblade 13/Argent Savant 3
15 Monk 1/Argent Savant 4
16 Duskblade 14/Argent Savant 5
17 Duskblade 15/Archmage 1
1 Duskblade 1/Warmage 1
2 Duskblade 2/Warmage 2
3 Duskblade 3/Warmage 3
4 Duskblade 4/Warmage 4
5 Duskblade 5/Warmage 5
6 Duskblade 6/Warmage 6
7 Duskblade 7/Abjurant Champion 1
8 Duskblade 8/Abjurant Champion 2
9 Duskblade 9/Abjurant Champion 3
10 Duskblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
11 Duskblade 11/Abjurant Champion 5
12 Argent Savant 1/Warmage 7
13 Duskblade 12/Argent Savant 2
14 Duskblade 13/Argent Savant 3
15 Monk 1/Argent Savant 4
16 Duskblade 14/Argent Savant 5
17 Duskblade 15/Archmage 1
Bard 1/ Wiz 1
Druid 1/ Wiz 2
Rogue 1/ Wiz 3
Rogue 2/ Wiz 4
Bard 2/ Wiz 5
Ur-Preist 1/ Wiz 6
Ur 2/ Wiz 7
Mystic Theurge 1/ Fatespinner 1
Mystic 2/ Fate 2
Mystic 3/ Fochlucan Lyrist 1
Mystic 4/ Lyrist 2
Mystic 5/ Lyrist 3
Mystic 6/ Lyrist 4
Mystic 7/ Lyrist 5
Mystic 8/ Lyrist 6
Mystic 9/ Lyrist 7
Mystic 10/ Lyrist 8
Fate 3 / Lyrist 9
Fate 4 / Lyrist 10
Do what you want with lvl 20
I think you need to be human with able learner to do this and a few things could be tweaked but this isn't a bad build. You could change out Fatesipnner for initiate of the Seven Fold Veil. Anyway thats about something that I would make for a geshalt game.
This build is illegal on a lot of levels. First off, you can't take classes that offer dual abilities (mystic theurge) in gestalt. Mystic theurge is one of the examples of a banned class in fact.
Secondly, you can't take prestige classes on both sides of a gestalt at the same time, you have to have a base class on one side.
...
Monk/paladin – The “monkadin” looks MAD at first, but by popular demand I put it on here because you can remove dependency on charisma with the Serenity feat from Champions of Valor. The “monkadin” makes a highly-mobile frontline combatant capable of destroying evil mages and annoying evil tanks. Take flying kick and the PHB2 sub that doubles smite damage at the end of a charge, combine the two with meteoric strike. It gets bloodier with a fallen “monkadin” since blackguards get sneak attack and poison use, combine those with a flurry of blows + stunning fist and paint the town red … with blood! (Credit goes to World Savers Inc, tsuyoshikentsu and Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi for this one)
...
where is the Serenity feat? I tried to find it but it's not in the Champion of Valor.
On one side, duskblade 15 / warblade 1 / bloodstorm blade 4.
This gives you full BAB, lots of weak spells, and a few maneuvers. You get the ability to channel touch spells as a full attack. You get the ability to treat thrown weapons as melee. And you get the ability to make a full attack using thrown weapons. The upshot of all this? You can channel a touch spell against four targets within throwing range.
That's all well and good, but you only have 15th level duskblade spells. 3/4ths of not very good is, of course, not very good.
So, for the other side, wizard 4 / spellsword 1 / incantatrix 10 / wizard +5
You can qualify for spellsword very early, thanks to gestalt. This dip gets rid of ASF for your wizard spells. Incantatrix can be replaced by any 10 level wizard prestige class you like.
Now you have 20th level spells, due to the miracle of gestalt. Now you can cast good spells using your nifty trick. Enjoy your four-target Imprisonment.
Factotum/Psion
You get a Psion with multiple standard actions in a round for manifesting. Minimal spell power boost, great Touch attack BAB, and the best part
The ability to ignore SR on your powers for a round at will.
A few extra Font of Inspiration feats to power some abilites and you still get some Metapsionic/psionic feats to play with from Psion.
Furthermore, this character can treat all Knowledge skills as trained skills and will gain a bonus on them equal to half the number of soulmelds shaped. This bonus will also apply on your Bardic Knowledge checks. If your character hasn't heard about it, it hasn't happened yet.
To pull off this trick properly you'll need the Tiefling Incarnate substitution levels and Shape Soulmeld (lamia belt). Lamia belt grants a +4 competence bonus on Hide and Bluff checks. You can also stack this with silvertongue mask since the Bluff bonus it grants is an insight bonus. After some essentia investments you have a character with an insane bonus on Bluff and Hide checks. You should also shape dissolving spittle and bind it to your throat chakra.
So, time for combat. Assuming you get a surprise round, which you should with your insane Hide bonus, use your Incarnum Radiance. Thanks to the Tiefling Incarnate substitution levels you now gain 20% concealment. Make sure you have as much essentia as possible in your lamia belt and dissolving spittle. You now spit a loogie at your enemy for 12d6 acid damage (because of essentia and sneak attack). Use Bluff to create a diversion to Hide. Next round, roll damage on your target again thanks to the throat chakra bind.
Some other stuff to make this one even more fun would be Indigo Strike for extra damage on your Sneak Attacks.
Anybody familiar with that warlock variant from the book of draconic cheese-fests would like to comment on warlock//df adept
The synergy is sub-par, since your Breath Dice and Eldritch Bolt don't stack and compete for actions. Most of the de-buffing breaths you might take only last for a round as well. Having 8 extra invocations isn't bad, but there aren't a lot of good ones that overlap, so it doesn't really give you any extra flex at any given invocation level.
Warlock gives better BaB, and the DFA has a slight AC boost. On the other hand, the Damage resistances don't stack.
My wife, however, is having a lot of fun with a Monk/Dragonfire Adept. Nice flavor - you can call the breath attack 'chi'-based, and use it for AE damage, but if someone gets in your face, you are much better off. The enhanced mobility also helps when you are trying to set up AE nukage or exercise some battlefirled control. Flight speeds for DFA are based off your land speed, so more joy there. And... both classes use /magic damage resistance, so they should stack. (Granted, not until late in the build, but it's something to anticipate with great glee.)
Paladin/Warlock: (Note, we are talking about Paladin of Freedom, the CG variant from UA.) At first glance, it looks like MAD-city, but if you fight using Eldritch Glaive (an beginning invocation from Dragon Magic), strength become a dump stat (you just do your Eldritch Bolt damage with melee touch attacks on the conjured reach weapon. It also makes AoOs HURT.) Paladin gives better BaB, Divine Grace, improved FORT saves, and a little extra healing. Spend a feat on Battlecaster and you can wear Mithil Full Plate with no arcane spell failure chance. If you need to be the primary tank, Weapon Focus and Short Haft let you use the glaive close up. At level 20, that's a full attack on the enemy's TOUCH AC for 9d6 each hit, 11d6 if you have a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power (which you should). If they have Spell Resistance, use Vitriolic Essence (available at 11th level). Beshadowed Blast (available at 6th level) means each hit requires a fort save to avoid blindness. Utterdark Essence (available at 16th) means save vs. level drain. Add to that the warlock's bag of miscellaneous tricks and damage resistance and things can get really nasty for the enemy.
To really Gish it up, stop advancing paladin after level 3 (it's not clear if Paladins of Freedom are required to earn all their levels consecutively, so I assumed the more restrictive interpretation). You could do Paladin to 5, but I didn't want to deal with a weak mount, weak turning, or 2 first level spells to memorize, so I did a 3 level dip in fighter to get Weapon Focus and Short Haft quickly - which lets me start the Fey Heritage feats at first level and start play with 2/Cold Iron DR as a human. (It only needed to be 2 levels, but I didn't have anything else to stick in there.)
Then I alternate in levels of Survivor and Enlightened Spirit (a PrC that many warlock players dislike). The Enlightened Spirit EB dice boosts are listed as bonus dice, rather than straight dice like on the Warlock table, but again I used the most restrictive interpretation for proof of concept.
The only real flaw I can see is suffering a 20% exp penalty from level 5 until level 6, but not all DMs enforce this rule, especially in a gestalt game. And it wouldn't apply to a human.
Track A Track B BAB FOR REF WIL EB Damage
Paladin1 Warlock1 1 2 0 2 1d6
Paladin2 Warlock2 2 3 0 3 1d6
Paladin3 Warlock3 3 4 1 4 2d6
Fighter1 Warlock4 4 6 1 4 2d6
Fighter2 Warlock5 5 7 1 4 3d6
Enlight1 Warlock6 6 8 2 6 3d6
Fighter3 Warlock7 7 8 3 7 4d6
Enlight2 Warlock8 8 8 3 8 5d6
Enlight3 Warlock9 9 9 4 8 6d6
Enlight4 Warlock10 10 9 4 9 7d6
Enlight5 Warlock11 11 9 4 9 8d6
Enlight6 Warlock12 12 10 5 10 9d6
Enlight7 Warlock13 13 10 5 10 9d6
Surviv1 Warlock14 14 12 7 12 10d6
Enlight8 Warlock15 15 13 8 13 11d6
Enlight9 Warlock16 16 14 9 14 11d6
Surviv2 Warlock17 17 15 10 15 12d6
Enlight10 Warlock18 18 16 11 16 13d6
Surviv3 Warlock19 19 16 11 17 13d6
Surviv4 Warlock20 20 17 12 18 14d6
The progression was sequenced to minimize conflicts (which is why he doesn't get Evasion until level 17), but even using fractional accounting, 6 levels of a Full-BAB progression should get this over the +15 hurdle to achieve 4 iterative attacks with eldritch glaive. Reflex is the only weak save, though four levels of Survivor helps it, and the Invocation Dark Ones Luck can add the Charisma bonus to it again.
No multi-classing PRCs and only 1 PRC at a time.
Gestalt restrictions: 1 PrC at a time only, no combo style PrCs (e.g., Mystic Theurge).
Arctic Halfling (Titan Blooded 3)
Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Wildplains Outrider 1//Ranger 15/Fighter 2
Feats: Skill Focus (Handle Animal) (1), Mounted Combat (b), Mounted Archery (b), Devoted Tracker (3), Dragon Steed (6), anything else is gravy.
You end up with the following effective levels for all level dependant stuff:
Paladin 8, Beastmaster 4, Halfling Outrider 13, Wildplains Outrider 4, Ranger 18, Fighter 5
That translates to:
Effective Paladin level for special mount: 21 (Pal + HalfO)
Effective Druid level for animal companion: 24 (BM + HalfO + WPO)
Effective Ranger level for animal companion: 31 (R + HalfO)
Total effective Druid level: 39
So, assuming you take the Large Gold Dragon mount (needs Pal level 20):
From Pal: +2HD, +4NatAC, +1Str
From Druid: +26HD, +26NatAC, +13Str/Dex
Large Gold Dragon is naturally 11HD, IIRC, so you are talking about a 39HD Large Dragon, or 7 normal feats and 7 Epic feats.
The Halfling is pretty much an afterthought...
Get Paladin 6 in there for free Celestial template. 'cause, why not?
How? I thought the level 6 thing was for the horse and pony only?
As long as you are playing Gestalt, Prestige Paladin might be worth a look.
The Planar Handbook alternate class feature allows you to apply the Celestial template to the "paladin's special mount." With Dragon Steed, the Dragon is your Special Mount.
As long as you are playing Gestalt, Prestige Paladin might be worth a look.
Hmm... I'll definitely have a look at the PrC Paladin.
Unfortunately, Planar Handbook is 3.0, I believe, so that is out.
I am not actually playing gestalt. I was just browsing through and thought that a few builds can go nuts with gestalt. The Dragon mount one is basically the Supermount build gone gestalt.
The next one that I would be mucking around with is probably the CaDzilla shapechanger.
Note that I am just doing this for fun. Crunching numbers is a fun past time for me.
I'm a big fan of number-crunching myself. I can't help but think there must be some other way of tweaking this build out. Maybe instead of getting a 2nd Animal Companion with Ranger, go full Wizard for extra Familiar benefits? I think you need a level of Arcane Heirophant somewhere to guaruntee they can all stack together, but still, when your dragon Mount/Companion/Familiar takes center-stage it'll be fun.
Planar Handbook is indeed 3.5. It was the first large scale update for the Great Wheel to 3.5.
I'm a big fan of number-crunching myself. I can't help but think there must be some other way of tweaking this build out. Maybe instead of getting a 2nd Animal Companion with Ranger, go full Wizard for extra Familiar benefits? I think you need a level of Arcane Heirophant somewhere to guaruntee they can all stack together, but still, when your dragon Mount/Companion/Familiar takes center-stage it'll be fun.
There isn't a second animal companion. There is just the dragon. Besides, Arcane Hierophant is not allowed (no MT type PrCs was one of the restrictions that I put in).
I didn't know the Planar HB was 3.5. I only have the 3.0 version. I will have to look it up as well, then, as the above build has 1 spare Paladin level to play with (effective Paladin level of 21, when the Dragon only needs Paladin level 20).
=============================================
EDIT:
Giving the Prestige Paladin a go:
Arctic Halfling (Titan Blooded 3)
Cloistered Cleric 2/Fighter 2/Prestige Paladin 13//Ranger 5/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Wildplains Outrider 1
Feats: Skill Focus (Handle Animal) (1), Mounted Combat (b), Mounted Archery (b), Devoted Tracker (3), Dragon Steed (6), anything else is gravy.
You end up with the following effective levels for all level dependant stuff:
Cleric 5, Paladin 16, Fighter 5, Beastmaster 4, Halfling Outrider 13, Wildplains Outrider 4, Ranger 8
That translates to:
Effective Paladin level for special mount: 29 (Pal + HalfO)
Effective Druid level for animal companion: 24 (BM + HalfO + WPO)
Effective Ranger level for animal companion: 21 (R + HalfO)
Total effective Druid level: 34
So, assuming you take the Large Gold Dragon mount (needs Pal level 20, or Pal level-14):
From Pal: +8HD, +10NatAC, +4Str
From Druid: +22HD, +22NatAC, +11Str/Dex
So, the comparison is:
Normal Paladin: 39HD Large Dragon, +30 NatAC, +14Str, +13Dex, 7 normal feats and 7 Epic feats.
PrC Paladin: 41HD Large Dragon, +32 NatAC, +15Str, +11Dex, 7 normal feats and 7 Epic feats.
But the difference is that the PrC Paladin also has 9 levels of Clerical spells and a CL of 12, Turn Undead, 3 Domains, and spells that are actually worth going down the DMM path. It will be more MAD than the normal Paladin, though as you can use Wis as a dump stat in that one (the power is in the Dragon, not your spells). It might pay to invest in Zen Archery in this build and dump Dex instead.
Comments?
The Planar Handbook released back in 2004 is a 3.5 rule supplement. It was released 3 months after the Expanded Psionic Handbook. Basically, the substitution level I'm talking about allows you to give up the use of Cure Disease you get at level 6 to be able to apply the Celestial template to your special mount.
The Planar Handbook substitution level would be nice. It would mean a bit of juggling with the levels (taking Beastmaster on the Ranger side and delaying taking Ranger 4 until the level after, for example), but it wouldn't fundamentally affect the original build much. The Celestial template would be quite good for the dragon, though. Smite, DR, resistances, SR are all based off HD, something that the dragon has a lot of. I would say that it is worth the juggling.
SageBahamut, it is so-so. All you end up getting is a gish that can cast in light armour. Nothing too spectacular. If you go Psychic Warrior//arcane caster, for example, you would get more than the same thing with the augmentable Mage Armour and Shield psionic equivalents, plus it opens you up to the option of Monk's Belt, since PsyWar is Wis based.
Human Cloistered Cleric 19/Ninja 1//Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Warshaper 5/Nature's Warrior 3 or finish off MoMF
Domains: Knowledge (b), Planning, Undeath
Feats: Extend Spell (b), Extra Turning (b), Persistent Spell (b), Track (b), DMM: Persistent (1), Alertness (3), Endurance (b), Natural Spell (6), Extra Spell: Bite of the Werebear (15), anything else is gravy.
The thing is that you'd want to be Wildshaped 24/7, and since you don't get to keep anything anymore when Wildshaped (hence the level in Ninja), a Vow of Poverty might be the way to go (personally I play with the original rules of "you get to keep anything your new form can wear", but that is just me).
A level in Monk is just as good, but I prefer Ninja due to the Monk's alignment restriction.
Cloistered Cleric will give you lots of skill points, allowing you to semi-dump Int in a point buy situation. It also gives you access to DMM, Divine Power and Righteous Might, which, being spells, are form independent.
The Saint template would be good if you are going to go the Vow of Poverty route, and are using LA buyback. Otherwise, you would want to avoid it.
Remember to concentrate on Con, Cha and Wis in that order. You are going to be a melee bruiser, not a caster, so Wis is not as important. Cha would be for DMM, and Con is vitally important as your hp doesn't change any more. I am also assuming here that you don't have access to Nightsticks.
This gestalt combo, I believe, would be quite powerful in the level 1-12 range games, but would fall behind in the level 12+ games. Once you get to MoMF, your AC should be pretty much through the roof, so most melee people can't even hit you. Just carry a mundane Large greatclub around (which is allowed by VoP, I believe), and enhance the living daylights out of it (Spikes, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.) and you would have a pretty powerful weapon for all those forms with opposable thumbs in addition to any natural attacks (just remember to drop it before you WS, and pick up again). Strap on a piece of cloth and Magic Vestments it for even more AC.
Have fun.
Human Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Sacred Exorcist 7//Beguiler 20
Feat: Focused Specialist (b), others are gravy
Suggested schools to drop: Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment.
Int casting both sides. Beguiler covers the schools you drop. A TON of skill points from 6 base + Int bonus. This thing is God on steroids. Do you need anything more?
Sacred Exorcist is just there for the HP and saves. Feel free to replace with anything you want.
Simple, easy, and most DMs would not balk at it. But be warned. For a gestalt, this thing is fragile...
Yes. I think it was CantripN who posted a very good Factotum 20//Warblade 20 build a few months ago. Factotum of War
Ah ok. Yea, I scanned through this thread for anything factotum related and didn't find much.
I figured it had been thought of elsewhere, and I seem to remember something CantripN came up with alluding to it. *checks*
If you're using OA 3.0, then alternating between Samurai/Ninja Spy and Rogue/Iajutsu Master makes for a force to be reckoned with. The Iaijutsu bonus stacks with Sneak Attack in many cases, and with the Ninja Spy's acrobatic and stealth abilities, one could easily go in for a high-damage strike, then fade into the background. Rinse and repeat. Can you say battousai?
I was actually playing with a few ideas similar to this recently and, if you accept Rokugan Campaign Setting material, you can get a Ninja 4 (Rokugan Campaign Setting), Bayushi Deceiver 2, Swiftblade 4 with the Way of the Scorpion feat (yes, with some other classes to qualify in-between) to get 4xIntelligence Modifier to initiative (without using more than 1 clan - because Iaijutsu Master could also add Charisma in there). That's going to be 48 or more added initiative in most cases. What you do from there, of course, is totally up to you. Iaijutsu Master is certainly appealing at that point since your enemies will almost assuredly be flat-footed.
Overall I ditched the idea though because the massive initiative, in and of itself, does not do anything substantial (despite being fun). If you really want to just boost initiative, you can do that, add in Way of the Crane if your DM allows you to use it to qualify for Iaijutsu Master, add in the required Improved Initiative, take the Moment of Alacrity maneuver, and get the feat that lets you take a Total Defense action to treat your initiative as if you rolled a 20 on all subsequent rounds. I'm sure there are bragging rights in there somewhere when you have well over 100 initiative (4xIntelligence Modifier + 2 (way of the crane) + 4 (improved initiative) + 20 (moment of alacrity) + 20 (roll) + Charisma Modifier = 46 + 4xIntelligence Modifier + Charisma Modifier). That's without guerrilla warrior and other feats to further boost your initiative as well.
This is a character I'm currently playing in a level 16 Gestalt campaign that just started this wednesday.
Human: Factotum8/Warblade1/Factotum+11//Wizard (Focused Conjuror)20
Banned schools: Evocation, Enchantment,
Base stats: 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18
Int's obviously the most important, followed by Con. Everything else is nice, but not needed much in my opinion.
Str: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 16
Int: 22
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
1: Factotum1//Wizard1
2: Factotum2//Wizard2
3: Factotum3//Wizard3
4: Factotum4//Wizard4
5: Factotum5//Wizard5
6: Factotum6//Wizard6
7: Factotum7//Wizard7
8: Factotum8//Wizard8
[Here is where you gain multiple standard actions/round]
9: Factotum8/Warblade1//Wizard9
[Maneuvers: Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Mind Over Body, Punishing Stance. You gained your Int mod as a bonus to Ref saves.]
10: Factotum9/Warblade1//Wizard10
11: Factotum10/Warblade1//Wizard11
12: Factotum11/Warblade1//Wizard12
[You can now ignore DR/SR with impunity. Hooray for you!]
13: Factotum12/Warblade1//Wizard13
14: Factotum13/Warblade1//Wizard14
15: Factotum14/Warblade1//Wizard15
16: Factotum15/Warblade1//Wizard16
17: Factotum16/Warblade1//Wizard17
18: Factotum17/Warblade1//Wizard18
19: Factotum18/Warblade1//Wizard19
20: Factotum19/Warblade1//Wizard20
Feats:
Wiz1- Improved Initiative
[Trade Scribe Scroll and the Wizard bonus feats for the Fighter bonus feats]
Human-Keen Intellect
[3.5 Oriental Adventures update. Small skill bonuses along with the ability to add Int instead of Wis to Will saves.]
Lvl1- Font of Inspiration
Lvl3- Font of Inspiration
Wiz5-Spontaneous Divination
Lvl6- Font of Inspiration
Lvl9- Font of Inspiration
Wiz10- [Insert Granted Domain Power of Choice]
Lvl12- Font of Inspiration
[I assume you have a Headband of Int by now.]
Lvl15- Font of Inspiration
Wiz15-[Insert Granted Domain Power of Choice]
Lvl18- Font of Inspiration
Wiz20- [Insert Granted Domain Power of Choice]
If you're allowed Flaws take them. A good choice for an extra feat is Insightful Reflexes. Nothing like having your Int modx3 added to a save.
Skills: Pretty much whatever you want. You get 6+int per level and +Int to all Strength and Dexterity based skills. I suggest Knowledge skills, Concentration, and Tumble.
White Raven Tactics is vastly inferior for gaining standard actions when compared to what you can already do, but you don't ever gain an ability like IHS that lets you remove any ongoing negative affect that didn't leave you immobile.
Wall of Blades was picked just so it could be a prerequisite filler for IHS, and because this campaign started at level 16 with no characters having any items besides Spellbooks if they used it, so it made a decent way to stop an attack for a character that didn't have the normal protective items.
As for the gestalts that worry me:
Bard/Warblade (or Bard/Crusader) makes a startlingly good tank/buffer with Song of the White Raven and a few other things putting Inspire Courage off the scale, Alter Self fixing your AC, White Raven Tactics for the haste, and a Crystal Echoblade longsword on a full BAB fighter getting all its bonus damage (i.e. bonus damage equal to half your bard level for 2000Gp). You also get nice skills, reasonable spellcasting (especially if you choose to make Cha a minor stat and avoid anything that gets resisted), useful abilities, and a nice grab-bag of abilities. Oh, and three good saves, which is something I always look for.
The other combination I like is one of the obvious ones - the fully-focussed Wizard/Rogue - you only really have one stat you need to pump (Int) and then it's just a matter of not being hit. You've got flexibility and skill points coming out of your ears. 1 reserve feat, and you can play Warlock (if you should ever want to). Touch rays and improved invisibility make a scary combo here. But versatility is what this character is about - that and lack of MAD.
Oh, speaking of MAD. It should be pointed out that the Factotum//Wizard doesn't need Str, Dex, Wis, or Cha. They're all still useful, but none of them are very important.
bump I make gestalt characters, usually level 25+, to entertain myself (often I bend/break rules to make it more interesting, like allowing 2 PrC's at once, but I won't post those here since they're houseruled so weirdly). Currently working on a druid 20/--/wizard summoner (with levels of master conjurer, loremaster [just needs a wasted feat to qualify; druids get plenty of divination spells], archmage, and a 1-level mindbender dip for telepathy), and a cleric/--/druid (probably some levels of contemplative, and/or something else, to fill out the cleric side) to partner with him. The wizard summons 'em, the cleric buffs 'em, and then they turn the summons loose while blasting with spells (or summon some more, if they like).
I wouldn't mind adding a third character, for more of a party than a partnership, but I honestly can't think what to do with him. I'd like to keep the nature theme, with full levels of druid (or possibly ranger), but I don't really know what else he'd be - they pretty much have all their bases covered (summons and wildshaping for melee combat, plenty of divine spells, some arcane spells, and between the spells and summons they don't really need an expert...). Any thoughts?
By 20th level you have +5 NA, DR 5/Cold iron, DR 5/magic, immunity to sleep and paralysis, energy resistance 10 to one energy type, and fiendish resilience (which nabs you fast healing 5 for the duration. This is all with a d8 hit dice, light armor proficiency, and a probably pretty high constitution score (for your DFA breath weapon). That's a pretty tough shell on a caster, although not necessarily as good as a bought one, it frees your gold up for crafting or for other items.
You also have 20 invocations instead of 12 with warlock or 8 with DFA. Pretty awesome I.M.O. although not as game-breaking as the assassin-seer before or a frienzied berzerker//warhulk. Until I play it, however, the usefulness of the class mix isn't really clear.
Build gives a d12 HD, good BAB, all good saves, 8+int skills, arcane casting, fighter bonus feats (focus on two weapon fighting and imp. toughness), and rogue abilities (except sneak attack). Makes a very versatile character indeed. Maybe I'll post my full build someday.
What about a combo of cleric20 // duskblade 5/abjurant champion5/duskblade10 (if abjurant champion is allowed).
You'll have full bab, full cleric casting (with +5 bonus AC on casting magic vestment ;)), and lots of duskblade swift goodies.
The character will need some str/wis/int, but not much of the rest.
Gestalt Shapechanger with the above restrictions:
Human Cloistered Cleric 19/Ninja 1//Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Warshaper 5/Nature's Warrior 3 or finish off MoMF
Domains: Knowledge (b), Planning, Undeath
Feats: Extend Spell (b), Extra Turning (b), Persistent Spell (b), Track (b), DMM: Persistent (1), Alertness (3), Endurance (b), Natural Spell (6), Extra Spell: Bite of the Werebear (15), anything else is gravy.
The thing is that you'd want to be Wildshaped 24/7, and since you don't get to keep anything anymore when Wildshaped (hence the level in Ninja), a Vow of Poverty might be the way to go (personally I play with the original rules of "you get to keep anything your new form can wear", but that is just me).
A level in Monk is just as good, but I prefer Ninja due to the Monk's alignment restriction.
Cloistered Cleric will give you lots of skill points, allowing you to semi-dump Int in a point buy situation. It also gives you access to DMM, Divine Power and Righteous Might, which, being spells, are form independent.
The Saint template would be good if you are going to go the Vow of Poverty route, and are using LA buyback. Otherwise, you would want to avoid it.
Remember to concentrate on Con, Cha and Wis in that order. You are going to be a melee bruiser, not a caster, so Wis is not as important. Cha would be for DMM, and Con is vitally important as your hp doesn't change any more. I am also assuming here that you don't have access to Nightsticks.
This gestalt combo, I believe, would be quite powerful in the level 1-12 range games, but would fall behind in the level 12+ games. Once you get to MoMF, your AC should be pretty much through the roof, so most melee people can't even hit you. Just carry a mundane Large greatclub around (which is allowed by VoP, I believe), and enhance the living daylights out of it (Spikes, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.) and you would have a pretty powerful weapon for all those forms with opposable thumbs in addition to any natural attacks (just remember to drop it before you WS, and pick up again). Strap on a piece of cloth and Magic Vestments it for even more AC.
Have fun.
Natural spell isnt needed since master of many forms negates the need for it
First, the Abj Champ gives +5 to all those sweet Cleric and Wizzie spells that boost armor. Incantatrix can make a spellcraft check to persist them, including Divine Power. All of a sudden, you have a BAB 20 full wizard and cleric who has the best buffs in the game, most with a +5 to them. Best triple threat in the game, if you ask me
The guy who played this was ~lvl 15 or something, with an ARMORED ac of 70+! Abj Champion and cleric are just too amazing together.
-Swany
I notice in the last page many of you discussing the "alternate side BAB", whereas a Fighter 1/Sorcerer19//Wizard20 would be BAB 20 (my paraphrasing here). UA specifically talks about fractional BAB, so that this obvious monstrosity wouldn't be acceptable to a DM as BAB 20, but rather, BAB 10. Just wanted to point that out...
Lastly, I would suspect that classes like Arcane Trickster would be considered dual progression, and thus, not allowed. Same would go for feats that combine 2 class features, like the Daring Outlaw feat.
I do love this thread, and hope continued interesting builds keep popping up here.
-Swany