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| #1GharbadTheWeakAug 10, 2014 13:47:21 | I'm looking to join a 3.5 gestalt game, with the following rules:
4th Level, Unlimited Gestalt
Fast Feats (Currently unsure as to what this means, am asking DM)
32 Point Buy
Standard 4th level gold
There'll be four party members, but I currently only know about two of them: A Lesser Tiefling Warblade 4|Transmuter Wizard 3/Overwhelming Attack Monk 1 Catfolk Ranger 3|Scout 4
Considering there's a Warblade, and I'm playing a Crusader in another campaign, I'd like to try the Swordsage out. But I'm trying to think of what to pair it with. I'm mainly looking for things to enhance the swordmage side of things.
For at least the Swordsage side of things, starting could look like (Very inartfully done)
Human Swordsage 4|X
Str: 9 Con: 14 Dex: 17+1=18 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 10
Swordsage Class Skills: Concentration, Hide, Move Silent
Feats (Including Flaw, yet to be determined) Human: Adaptive Style Flaw: Shadow Blade 1: Two Weapon Fighting (or Snap Kick if using a two handed weapon or unarmed variant) 3: Weapon Finesse
Maneuvers: 9 Known, 2 Stances Desert Wind: Burning Blade Diamond Mind: Sapphire Nightmare Blade Shadow Hand: Child of Shadow (Stance) Island of Blades (Stance) Shadow Blade Technique Stone Dragon: Mountain Hammer Tiger Fang: Wolf Fang Strike
Plus 4 other maneuvers. I'm not sure I want to choose all my manuevers until I know what the other side of my gestalt is.
Swordsage 4|Cleric 4 would be interesting, what with self buffing and everything. It'd give me a couple ways to go, focusing on Dex and Wis and treating it like a super-buffed swordsage. With Insightful Strike and Intuitive Strike, I may be able to pump wis, or possibly wear heavier armor and switch Dex for higher Strength.
Swordsage 4|Druid 4, maybe even the Shapeshift variant for Predator Form. I'm not sure I'd want to work with the animal companion anyway, and it'd be a way to get something for it (Nothing against animal companions mechanically, I'm just not a fan of them).
Swordsage 4|Rogue 4 could definitely be more dex focused, using sneak attack to add up damage, and would add up a skillmonkey for the group.
Any help is appreciated!
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| #2Tempest_StormwindAug 10, 2014 16:04:53 | Swordsage can pair wonderfully with many things. Have you considered psychic warrior? Amazing bonus feats, wisdom focused abilities, and buffs that can benefit from or augment your boosts and strikes? Ardent would be similar, which is like cleric except without any of the cheese and with plenty of the "philosophy and inner strength" fluff that suffuses the swordsage anyway.
In both cases, in addition to Intuitive Attack, the usual route is Tashalatora, but you won't need that if going gestalt.
On the other hand, if you'd like to leave casting alone, going rogue is good choice in general since the rogue abilities are all passive compared to the swordsage's active ones, and they often synergize; rounding it out largely becomes an exercise in optimizing rogue, then. If your ranger gets Distracting Attack at level 4, this will be an amazing option for a two-weapon fighter using Shadow Hand abilities (Shadow Blade, the teleports, a full attack from Assassin's Stance...). Just play up the swordsage as a deceptive class instead of a tank and you're fine. |
| #3GharbadTheWeakAug 10, 2014 16:52:35 | I'm not anti-casting. I'd probably look more towards Ardent than Psychic Warrior, just for the larger power point pool. I could take the Conflict and Deception Mantles as my main mantels, plus... freedom, I suppose? That 10 feet of movement could be nice.
If I went rogue, how would distracting attack help? Isn't that just +1 to attack from friends? If you're talking about catching someone flat footed, I think I can manage that with Island of Blades. I'm pretty sure he's going Longbow, anyway.
If I went Ardent...
5 Powers Known, 17 Power Points Prescience, Offensive Psionic Lion's Charge Cloud Mind Concealing Amorpha Dimension Hop/Hustle?
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| #4Tempest_StormwindAug 10, 2014 17:02:01 | With ardent, it's a matter of picking primary and secondary mantles - you cannot know more powers in any secondary mantle than you know in either primary mantle, which makes power selection a bit of an art.
With psychic warriors, well... see the psycarnum warrior in my sig. It's quite possible to give them something similar to Font of Power through clever use of incarnum.
Island can't catch people flat-footed; it just lets you flank from more angles.
Distracting Attack causes any target hit by it to be treated as flanked by the ranger for 1 round, so the ranger can scoot-and-shoot with Skirmish and still have the enemy flanked for you, regardless of where the ranger's actually standing. |
| (Reply to #4)GharbadTheWeak | I think we were talking about two slightly different things when it comes to Distracting Attack, Flat Footed and Flanking. I was just looking at flanking for purposes of sneak attack. I'm coming off of 4th edition and Neverwinter Nights 1/2, so I don't have a strong mastery of the system for 3.5. Island of blades SHOULD let me sneak attack, right? Still, I'll talk to the guy about Distracting Attack.
Edit: How workable is the Psycarnum Warrior at level 4? I like how it all comes together. I can't guarentee this game will last, since it's a game I'm joining via an INTERNET FORUM~ Would it work well for a Swordsage?
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| #6GharbadTheWeakAug 10, 2014 19:29:33 | Build prototype, pretending that Psychic Warrior and Swordmage works. I'm borrowing the scores from Psycarnum Warrior for now, and just throwing down the basics for the character
Race: Azurin Class: Psychic Warrior|Unarmed Swordsage Ability Scores: 14/14/14/10/16/10
Good saves: Fort, Will, Ref (from both classes)
Feats: Azurin: Azure Talent Flaw: Psychrystal Affinity Psychic Warrior 1: Psycarnum Infusion 1: Adaptive Style? Psychic Warrior 2: Power Attack? 3: Psicrystal containment
Powers: Force Screen, Expansion, Offensive Precognition, Strength of my enemy
5 base power points, +4 (wisdom)
Skills: Concentration and WHATEVER I WANT FROM SWORDSAGE~
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| #7Tempest_StormwindAug 10, 2014 21:04:15 |
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| #8GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 10:14:11 | Ok, got it. I'm more interested in this Swordsage|Psycarnum Warrior stuff, but it's good to know that stuff anyway. So, before I stat up the build for a pass, let's make sure I understand the basics of the Psycarnum Warrior build.
1. Gain Focus as a standard action (need at least one PP) 2. Expend psionic focus to fake a point of essentia in Azure Talent, gaining two temporary PP. 3. Spend that PP before they go away. 4. Regain Focus
At level 3, the Psicrystal can store a focus. So
1. Gain focus, store in psicrystal 2. Gain focus 3. Expend psionic focus 1, gain 2 temporary pp 4. Expend psionic focus 2, gain 2 more temporary pp 5. Spend dat pp 6. refocus
So I'd have 4 free pp (which is the most I can spend at manifester level 4 anyway, right?) to buff up as much as I can.
I can keep Force Screen (+4 AC), Expansion (+2 strength, large sized, -2 Dex, -1 attack, -1 AC), and Offensive Precognition (+1 to attack, +1 for using 4 PP) up for 4 minutes at a time, and Strength of my Enemy up for 4 rounds at a time.
Because I can't spend enough in Force Screen and Expansion to actually augment them further, they're both 1pp, so total buffing time is 1. Gain Focus, transfer to psicrystal 2. Gain Focus 3. Expend Focus, Force Screen 4. Expansion 5. Gain Focus 6. Expend both focuses, Offensive Precognition 7. Gain Focus, transfer to psicrystal (for use of Strength of my Enemy) 8. Gain Focus
Giving me a little over 3 minutes to toddle about. I may want to scout before we get into combat proper, so hide and move silent are skills I'll want to pick up.
Now, assuming that's all correct: I thought insightful strike added wisdom to DAMAGE for one style, not to attack? I'm assuming that's what you mean by "add wisdom twice to attacks."
Now, insightful strike would let me start at +3 to attack, with 16 wisdom, but... with Expansion adding 2 strength, my strength is effectively 16, so would insightful strike really be helpful? Or is this under the assumption that I'm going to raise Wisdom at every opportunity for more attack, insightful strike damage, and AC?
Speaking of AC, my base AC should be
Leather Armor +2, Dex +2, Wis +3, Force Screen +4, +10 = 21. If I wanted to (may not be recommended), I could swap Strength of my Enemy for Inertial Armor (manefested as +5 armor), giving me 24 armor, and focus on strikes instead of full attacks. Which, considering I'm level 4 to begin with, might be a good idea.
I'll ask about Midnight Augmentation if it turns out this game lasts long enough to bother.
Finally, 14/14/14/10/16/10 is a good starting point, here? |
| #9Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 11:23:56 | Two mistakes. 1) Move action, not standard action, to focus, thanks to Psionic Meditation. 2) You can't expend both foci on the same power - it's not "expend focus, get two power points', it's "expend focus, and the feat is full for one round." The Azure Talent feat, when full, gives you two PP per essentia invested in it (maximum 1 at this point, so 2pp). You need to expend a focus before manifesting either power at 2pp (or more if you're tapping into your normal reserve).
Don't be afraid to tap into your actual power points in combat; as long as you have at least 1pp remaining, you can still regain focus and keep fueling your buffs this way.
Your essentia capacity upgrades at 6th, 12th, and 18th level, and when Improved Essentia Capacity comes online. These are the breakpoints when you get to change how many PP Azure Talent gives you, and how efficient Psycarnum Infusion is.
You reach peak efficiency pretty early on at 6th, when you get 6pp for expending focus on Azure Talent.
I would DEFINITELY switch to inertial armor when you can, as it will be better than the leather by far - but the leather (or, ideally, chain shirt; you can easily afford a masterwork one at this level, and -1 check penalty isn't all that severe for the AC increase) will keep you alive when you're not buffed. If you want to swap, remember that SoME is one of the deadliest offensive powers psychic warriors have of that level, but it doesn't last very long; ask yourself if the increased AC is worth not having the beastly buff / debuff combo online when you need it. |
| #10GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 13:18:13 | Oh, I'm working on something else right now, but I found out what "fast feats" are.
You get feats at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, etc.
So I actually have ANOTHER feat to play with.
Edit: I also don't have meditation yet. I don't think I can qualify for it except with my level 4 feat, so should I swap out psicrystal containment for it? I can't get both at level 4, it looks like, even with all these million feats. |
| #11Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 13:37:52 |
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| #12KruskAug 11, 2014 14:17:30 | I didn't see this questioned anywhere, but what do you mean by "Unlimited gestalt". |
| #13Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 15:27:08 |
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| #14GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 15:47:02 | Yeah, it's Gestalt What You Want. I don't feel like it's necessary to Absolutely Crush The Game, so I think Swordsage|Psychic Warrior is going to work just fine.
Here's what I have so far, level-by-level, to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Race: Azurin Ability Scores: 14/14/14/10/16/10 Essentia: 1 Class Skills: 6
Level 1 feats:
Powers gained: Force Screen Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand Maneuvers Gained:
Level 2: Powers Gained: Expansion
Level 3: Powers Gained: Offensive Precognition
Level 4:
How's it look? Then I'd be able to use 4pp /round without actually spending anything, right? |
| #15GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 16:19:29 | The only thing I'd think about changing, class wise, would be swapping Warblade for Swordsage, because the guy who was a warblade switched to a Factotum|Psion. I'd get full attack, and more HP, but I'd be very MAD about things, I think. I mean, I don't NEED intelligence. Take Strength to 16 instead of Wisdom, especially since my Essentia engine may come up a little more quickly. Between Fast Feats and the Warblades' bonus feats, I could feed more into it, too. Would it be worth it? |
| #16GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 17:33:55 | Ok, so, the top part of the build would be replaced by
Good saves: Fort HD: D12 BaB: Full
Feats would be the same.
Skills would be (assuming 10 int) Concentration, Jump, Tumble, Climb
The feats would be the same, though I'd be looking at Iron Heart and Stormguard Warrior for later, assuming the game continued.
I'd get 5 manuevers total, with 2 stances.
Moment of Perfect Mind, Saphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, then Leading The Attack (Which I think I can swap out with Battle Leader's Charge, in preparation for Psionic Lion's Charge) Punishing Stance, Stance of Clarity
I could swap 16 strength for 14 wisdom, and just ignore the intelligence bonus. Alternatively, I could drop Charisma to 8 to push Int to 12, and get a little tiny bonus. Or wisdom 12, Int 14.
Oh, and I'd swap Intuitive Attack for either Ironheart Aura (if the game will continue significantly past 4) or Power Attack (if it won't) |
| #17Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 18:16:21 | Mobile now, will reply fully later. Stay swordage. You can take capacity at 2nd if you have 15 Con (reduce Int or Cha to 8 for the points.) You CANNOT use Azure Talent ttwice in a round: using Infusion on it treats it as full for one round, not one manifestation. You can, however, get 4pp per round with Improved Essentia Capacity. Also, you don't get a maneuver swap at 3, you get it at 4; I also REALLY like Counter Charge. |
| (Reply to #17)GharbadTheWeak | Stay swordsage, even though my party is a ranger/scout and a ranged psion/factotum? I'll wait, I just wanted to say I've been upgraded to The Guy In Front. And I could definitely be persuaded on changing my manuevers. |
| #19Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 18:56:47 |
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| #20GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 19:02:44 | Yeah, that'd be great. I'd like to keep the Psychic Warrior stuff, though, because a massive swordsage with all those buffs is really cool. |
| #21Slagger_the_ChuulAug 11, 2014 19:12:23 |
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| #22GharbadTheWeakAug 11, 2014 19:51:24 | While I was waiting, I decided to see how the Psycarnum Warrior feats would translate to the Fast Feats change. I didn't move around things too much, just kinda shoved a feat into the closest available feat slot. Any feat marked with a -- is free. Here's what I came up with:
Flaw: -- 1. Azure Talent |
| #23Tempest_StormwindAug 11, 2014 21:08:30 | You might want to move Capacity a bit earlier; if you can get it at 4, you're fine (getting 4pp when you can afford to spend that much). If you get it at 1, you can use the 4 slot for Intuitive Attack. Also, you can shuffle this around for you a bit if you want; i.e. unarmed swordsage won't need Improved unarmed as a feat, and you've still more to spare.
Here's a basic control swordsage loadout, up to 6th to give you a feel for it. (Had it sitting around, it's not too hard to extend.)
1: Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Burning Blade, [Flame's Blessing] 2: Charging Minotaur, [Child of Shadow] 3: Cloak of Deception 4: Shadow Jaunt, Action Before Thought (drop Wolf Fang Strike) 5: Devastating Throw [Pearl of Black Doubt - Default stance] 6: Feigned Opening, Mind over Body (drop Burning Blade)
In your case, you might not want Pearl of Black Doubt, since you've got a high AC from your buffs anyway, but it helps with the durability somewhat nonetheless. And it adds on if you manage to use a counter to avoid a hit.
The focus is on maneuvers which let you trip targets with your massive size and strength checks, which will reposition them and force them to waste actions. Apart from that, you focus on counters (though you probably don't need all the Diamond Mind counters - they make useful prerequisites later, as high-level Diamond Mind, with Stance of Alacrity, Moment of Alacrity, and Time Stands Still is amazing) to respond when enemies inevitably attack you. The trick then is to deal enough damage or throw them far enough that they are forced to try to attack you, and then you punish them for it. Your buffs will complement this.
Note that this does include a couple unusual maneuvers that are normally dumped, like Counter Charge and Charging Minotaur. Note that the latter always hits, and the former puts them charge distance away from YOU.
You'll note a lack of boosts besides the awesoe Sudden Leap and Cloak of Deception. This is because your swift action, if you didn't use it for a counter, is probably best spent on a swift psywar power, like Hustle or Lion's Charge. |
| #24GharbadTheWeakAug 12, 2014 11:09:29 | All right, I'm going to hopefully see what the other person did pretty soon. I'll start looking over items, see what I can dig up. So I'll dust off a few questions while I'm waiting.
Is there a way to use some of those empty feat slots to remove the need for the Torc of Power Preservation?
How does Midnight Augmentation work here? Does it work with Azure Talent at the same time?
Any stand-out items for my 5,400 GP? I figure I'll pick up a wand of lessor vigor, at least. Someone in the party'll have UMD.
Edit: I just got word that this is going to level 6, max. SUDDENLY LESS INTERESTING. Oh well, this guy being made is really cool anyway. |
| #25Tempest_StormwindAug 12, 2014 12:24:20 |
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| #26GharbadTheWeakAug 12, 2014 12:52:22 | Cool, thanks! I really appreciate all the help you've been giving me. But I think I'll take most of your maneuver suggestions for this game, because it looks like I'm going to be the main tank.
I feel like I'm dominating your time.
...which I'll continue trying to do! I'm going to be trying a Play-by-post with the same general build, fast feats, 32 point buy, and so on, for the Savage Tide adventure path, which I believe goes from levels 1 to 20. However, this one has a Crusader|Cloistered Cleric and a melee Scout|Swashbuckler, so I don't need to be the Guy In Front and can instead go for more damaging stuff, rather than defensive battlefield control (which you're right, it's really handy, but I do like the idea of doing crazy damage). Obviously, the psychic warrior charging side of it will take care of a lot of the damage, but do you have suggestions for maneuvers for less tanking, more being-a-general-jerk? I'll probably still end up with some setting sun, but, you know. Long-term jerkness is a thing I'm looking for.
If there's a way to use one of those many feats for forgoing the torc of power preservation, and/or just being an awesome dude, I'd love to hear it.
I'm going to assume you still think Swordmage is the way to go, and for some bizzare reason I'M GOING TO TRUST YOU ON THAT END because you MAY have more experience than I do at this.
edit: It's starting at level 1, and I think I can manage spending 200 gp on my own.
Again, thank you so much for your patience! |
| #27Tempest_StormwindAug 12, 2014 12:52:42 |
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| #28GharbadTheWeakAug 12, 2014 13:28:26 | Haha, yeah, sorry. I keep saying Swordmage. I don't know why, I get it right everywhere else.
Anyway, I think the tanky build is going to be for the 4-6th level game, and it'll be fairly short, I think, so I'm interested in messing with this longterm. Swordsages get enough maneuvers, I'll be able to play around with a lot of them.
I'm assuming that the psionic warrior stuff will keep my trips reasonable. Can you please explain the whole midnight augmentation deal, and if midnight augmentation and azure talent are used together? |
| #29Andarious-RosethornAug 12, 2014 14:55:25 | There's some action bottlenecking with Psy War and Martial Adept, just in form of Swift Action needs. Psionic Lion's Charge is a Swift, and so are your boosts, this means you can't use both in one round. |
| #30Tempest_StormwindAug 12, 2014 16:05:36 |
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| #42GharbadTheWeakAug 13, 2014 14:09:39 | I can do that. I'll have, hopefully, 20 levels to get it sorted. |
| #43GharbadTheWeakAug 13, 2014 20:27:30 | At level 9, the Psychic Warrior is listed as getting Share Pain. But that's not listed on the Psychic Warrior's power list. How do you get it?
Edit: I swear I keep checking, expecting it to be on the Psychic Warrior list each time. I feel like an idiot. |
| #44Tempest_StormwindAug 13, 2014 21:41:06 | Mobile, will be brief. Probably a mistake. Swap it in with an EK later once you can, probably replacing Wall Walker. |
| #45daedhaedAug 14, 2014 13:02:05 | I wish I could get in on this game lol. I've always wanted to play a Wizard/Incantatrix//Archivist/Dweomekeeper
nvm as that would require at least lvl 12 |
| #46GharbadTheWeakAug 14, 2014 12:47:57 | Actually, no one is going unrestricted full-progression spellcaster all the way through. Well, we've got a Factotum|Dread Necromancer, but no, like, wizards or clerics. So it should be entertaining. (The guy who is playing the Crusader|Cleric is actually switching to Crusader|Incarnate).
You know, I've got intuitive attack... but for most of the time, my strength (through expansion and Strength of my Enemy) is going to be much higher than my wisdom. Should I just concentrate my stat bumps and any ability raisers on strength? You know, keep enough items for dexterity to not lose my feats, and wisdoms can help with any save DCs I have. I'll probably be going more into setting sun and diamond mind than burning blade, though a high wisdom would be nice if I want to go into shadow hand. Debuffing is pretty cool. Does my strength really need the help? |
| #47Tempest_StormwindAug 14, 2014 13:07:58 |
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| #48GharbadTheWeakAug 14, 2014 15:31:16 | Hmm, more power points would let me use Psychic Renewal more often. I could use a 14 hit Time Stands Still one use per focus. With Schism, I could refocus with the schism, blow my focus for 10pp, use a swift action to spend 9pp to get back Time Stands Still, then full round and do it again.
I think. |