Gestalt Warmage(or any spontaneous arcane caster) cheese. OP help needed. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dumorimasoddaa Aug 16, 2011 11:38:09	I'm building a Gestalt Warmage going WarmageX, rainbow servant10,Sacred Exorcist 1, prc Palidin 2,warmageX// Warmage 5 (to cover the 5 lost caster levels) then 15 levels in whatever works. For the 15 missing levels I'm thinking arificer and or factorum. Feat wise taking Sword of the Arcane order and the feat that lets you cast as swift paladin spells. For almost all spells as spontaiously cast as needed as swift actions if standard. Ideads or flaws would be helpful as would ways to get in to Rainbow servant early. I choice warmage as base as armored caster and warmage edge out way what I thing beliger would give me or base sorcer in this build. Seeing as they get night on the same spell lists. Also I recall reading a feat that let you split spell slots in to lower level ones as needed would help pad out spells per day if I'm finding I need to cast a lot of what ever level spells. I'm tempted to take Savant as my 15 level class on the other side as it will add a few bonus feats and good skill acess plus more limited utility spell slots to make up for the limted number the Warmage would have. Major flaws need to be pointed out and additonal ideas are welcome. My aim isn't a pure baster or a massive utillity mage but one that can fill the whole of no casters in the party with minamal book keeping.
#2 Nezkrul Aug 16, 2011 13:00:00	one major flaw of your build is you can't take a class on both sides, you can only have warmage levels on one side. so I suggest going warmage 10 / rainbow servant 10 /// Scout 3 / Ranger 3 / PrC Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Ranger +10 This will give you all warmage spells, all cleric spells, 18 BaB, improved skirmish and swift hunter combo with all your attack spells (like your omg orbs), 4 favored enemies (i suggest dumping your useless animal companion for Solitary Hunter alternate feature which adds your favored enemy bonuses to your attack rolls against favored enemies within 30 feet), and lots of skills. Covers lots of roles, you can also add in extra turning and extend/persistent/dmm persist to use your turn undead attempts to make a few buffs last all day, so that is: blaster, buffer, skirmisher, skill monkey all in one. The feat you want is called Versatile Spellcaster, it lets you use 2 spell slots to cast a spell of 1 level higher than the 2 spell slots, for instance you could use 2 second-level spell slots to cast a fireball. Another good one is Rapid Metamagic, it lets you metamagic your spontaneous spells without increasing their casting time.
#3 dumorimasoddaa Aug 16, 2011 13:18:45	Prc plaldin and sacred exorcist need to be swaped and need to go later if I'm to get the wizard spells for spontaius casting. As for Versatile Spellcaster I sware there is a verson that works in revesre. I recall using it with a Mage of the arcane order to pay of spell debt cheap and chessyly for example a 9th lvl slot gives you 256 spell levels for to go to wards it basicly making you a need minor prep time spontaius caster of a huge amount of mid level spells both having alot of them and the ability to pay fo the debt you racked up casting more intresting spells quickly. I'll start really plugging at early entry to Rainbow Servant, I knwo there are at least 1 or two feats that boost the spell level you can cast at. Just nmee to hit 3 quickly. I've seen build get ti at second lvl but the only way I can see that happening is with a chessey use of Dragon Blood Pools or such can't rely on locations for it.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 16, 2011 13:24:02	one major flaw of your build is you can't take a class on both sides, you can only have warmage levels on one side. Just to clarify, this only matters at a given level. The concept of "side" doesn't really matter in gestalt, so long as two rules are met: 1) You cannot take a level that gestalts one class with itself (including variants) 2) You cannot take a level that gestalts a prestige class with another prestige class. Note that if you gain the same ability at the same level, you only gain it once. Thus, if I go (for instance) Wiz 5 // Rogue 5, then take a level of AnyWizardPrC // Wizard, my wizard caster level is actually only 6, not 7. (Easiest way to check this: Make sure your casting isn't greater than your character level at any point.) so I suggest going warmage 10 / rainbow servant 10 /// Scout 3 / Ranger 3 / PrC Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Ranger +10 This will give you all warmage spells, all cleric spells, 18 BaB, improved skirmish and swift hunter combo with all your attack spells (like your omg orbs), 4 favored enemies (i suggest dumping your useless animal companion for Solitary Hunter alternate feature which adds your favored enemy bonuses to your attack rolls against favored enemies within 30 feet), and lots of skills. Covers lots of roles, you can also add in extra turning and extend/persistent/dmm persist to use your turn undead attempts to make a few buffs last all day, so that is: blaster, buffer, skirmisher, skill monkey all in one. That's a good suggestion. For real win, take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor), which lets you prepare wizard spells in your ranger spell slots. This gives you access to: The warmage spell list (automatically known and spontaneously cast) The cleric spell list (via Rainbow Servant; automatically known and spontaneously cast. Thanks to Sacred Exorcist, you can even divinely persist them.) The ranger spell list (use wands to conserve slots - most ranger exclusive spells are wand-worthy anyway. Otherwise, prepared.) The wizard spell list (via Sword of the Arcane Order - prepared and cast from ranger slots. It's debatable whether you can wand or staff these as a result, but even if the answer's no, there's a LOT of great utility wizard spells among spell levels 1-4. You don't get sorcerer-only spells this way, but with this degree of versatility, you don't need to.) Is that versatile enough for you as a single caster? I would also like to highlight Nezkrul's Swift Hunter suggestion. This gives you a lot of skirmish damage, which applies to your ray spells (and it's easier to move and cast Scorching Ray than it is to move and full attack). More importantly, it gives you skirmish damage against favored enemies, even if they're normally immune to crits. There are a lot of undead, constructs, and elementals out there.
#5 dumorimasoddaa Aug 16, 2011 13:45:31	Also the pladin Prc can also take Sword of the Arcane Order and have that feed in to warmage as it's also a devine spellcasting class once Rainbow sevrent reaches lvl 10. Wether I could take it tiwce or taking it once would let me do both is iffy. The orginal idea was to get in to Rainbow Servant as early as possable on the levels I don't gain caster level take warmage so I do to ensure I get full spell slots that side. When RS is at lvl 10 Warmage is both devine and arcane for PrCs and such thus you take Sacred Exorcist (dip one or higher for the perist) then the Pladid prc to alow you to take pladin feats spell casting tie to warmage. With Sword of the Arcane Order Warmage gains all missing Sor/Wiz spells as well as all Pal spells. Then you take battle casting to let you cast all those as swift. Top up with Warmage to reach CL 20. Fill the rest with likely range skrmisher as surgested. If you can take Sword of the Arcane Order with the Paladin prc (it has a lvl require ment but it's more or less really the spell casting one) then you can easly have a CL 20 all spells bar ranger, bard and other prcs none core classes. The biggest flaw here is though while you are versitile as any caster could be you really lack in spells per day when you look at the options you have/could have had by taking a second caster class. Right then working out this build am lookign to go human and to take 2 flaws for the four feats as such: Heighten Spell (1), Earth Sense (H), Earth Spell (F1), Versatile Spellcaster (F2) This will let me get Rainbow Sevrent at 2nd level lookign at taking vunrable and noncombatent for my flaws and foucsing on Ranged combat with my martal focus ranger will give me. That is DM aproved as is the possability of reshapeing some of the dormains and or powers I'd get surgesstions are welcome but not needed. The next big thing is getting the skill points to enter Sacred Exorcist at 11th level should be doable with out issue and feat management to make the build not suck too hard if it runs out of spells. I'm still lookign to track down the inverse of Versitile spellcaster as I sware I've seen it.
#6 dumorimasoddaa Aug 17, 2011 19:01:10	Qick question unless I'm reading wrong Or I've missed soemthing couldn't versital spellcaster on its own alow acces to 3rd level spells. You use 4 1st level slots for it not cheap but you should be able to cast them "when a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list"; would burning spell slots with versitile spell alone give you acess thus alowing you to cast the spells? If so this makes warmage evem more awesome as a starter class to PrC from.
#7 Nezkrul Aug 18, 2011 10:41:18	the feat only allows you to spend 2 lower level spell slots to cast a spell you know 1 level higher, it doesn't allow you to spend 4 and cast a level 2 higher. you have to know the spell you are going to cast before you can cast it, and warmages only know the spells they have access to, as defined by their spell casting progression on the table, which means if they have a - they do not know ANY of that level's spells. You cannot possibly get Rainbow Servant at 2nd level, it has a special requirement that I'm pretty sure a 5 hit point human could never accomplish by hisself. If your DM is allowing you to take it at 2nd level via your feat trick (which I disagree on working the way you want it to) then cool, but don't think this would be a normal thing to be able to do in DnD, i mean heck, if you can pretty much game the system to get into the prc at 2nd level, then why don't you just play a venerable dragonwrought kobold divine minion of Set wizard 1 / master of many forms 4 ?

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

dumorimasoddaa

Aug 16, 2011 11:38:09

I'm building a Gestalt Warmage going

WarmageX, rainbow servant10,Sacred Exorcist 1, prc Palidin 2,warmageX// Warmage 5 (to cover the 5 lost caster levels) then 15 levels in whatever works. For the 15 missing levels I'm thinking arificer and or factorum. Feat wise taking Sword of the Arcane order and the feat that lets you cast as swift paladin spells. For almost all spells as spontaiously cast as needed as swift actions if standard.

Ideads or flaws would be helpful as would ways to get in to Rainbow servant early. I choice warmage as base as armored caster and warmage edge out way what I thing beliger would give me or base sorcer in this build. Seeing as they get night on the same spell lists.

Also I recall reading a feat that let you split spell slots in to lower level ones as needed would help pad out spells per day if I'm finding I need to cast a lot of what ever level spells.

I'm tempted to take Savant as my 15 level class on the other side as it will add a few bonus feats and good skill acess plus more limited utility spell slots to make up for the limted number the Warmage would have.

Major flaws need to be pointed out and additonal ideas are welcome.

My aim isn't a pure baster or a massive utillity mage but one that can fill the whole of no casters in the party with minamal book keeping.

Nezkrul

Aug 16, 2011 13:00:00

one major flaw of your build is you can't take a class on both sides, you can only have warmage levels on one side. so I suggest going warmage 10 / rainbow servant 10 /// Scout 3 / Ranger 3 / PrC Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Ranger +10

This will give you all warmage spells, all cleric spells, 18 BaB, improved skirmish and swift hunter combo with all your attack spells (like your omg orbs), 4 favored enemies (i suggest dumping your useless animal companion for Solitary Hunter alternate feature which adds your favored enemy bonuses to your attack rolls against favored enemies within 30 feet), and lots of skills. Covers lots of roles, you can also add in extra turning and extend/persistent/dmm persist to use your turn undead attempts to make a few buffs last all day, so that is: blaster, buffer, skirmisher, skill monkey all in one.

The feat you want is called Versatile Spellcaster, it lets you use 2 spell slots to cast a spell of 1 level higher than the 2 spell slots, for instance you could use 2 second-level spell slots to cast a fireball. Another good one is Rapid Metamagic, it lets you metamagic your spontaneous spells without increasing their casting time.

dumorimasoddaa

Aug 16, 2011 13:18:45

Prc plaldin and sacred exorcist need to be swaped and need to go later if I'm to get the wizard spells for spontaius casting.

As for Versatile Spellcaster I sware there is a verson that works in revesre. I recall using it with a Mage of the arcane order to pay of spell debt cheap and chessyly for example a 9th lvl slot gives you 256 spell levels for to go to wards it basicly making you a need minor prep time spontaius caster of a huge amount of mid level spells both having alot of them and the ability to pay fo the debt you racked up casting more intresting spells quickly.

I'll start really plugging at early entry to Rainbow Servant, I knwo there are at least 1 or two feats that boost the spell level you can cast at. Just nmee to hit 3 quickly. I've seen build get ti at second lvl but the only way I can see that happening is with a chessey use of Dragon Blood Pools or such can't rely on locations for it.

Tempest_Stormwind

Aug 16, 2011 13:24:02

one major flaw of your build is you can't take a class on both sides, you can only have warmage levels on one side.

Just to clarify, this only matters at a given level. The concept of "side" doesn't really matter in gestalt, so long as two rules are met:
1) You cannot take a level that gestalts one class with itself (including variants)
2) You cannot take a level that gestalts a prestige class with another prestige class.

Note that if you gain the same ability at the same level, you only gain it once. Thus, if I go (for instance) Wiz 5 // Rogue 5, then take a level of AnyWizardPrC // Wizard, my wizard caster level is actually only 6, not 7. (Easiest way to check this: Make sure your casting isn't greater than your character level at any point.)

so I suggest going warmage 10 / rainbow servant 10 /// Scout 3 / Ranger 3 / PrC Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Ranger +10

This will give you all warmage spells, all cleric spells, 18 BaB, improved skirmish and swift hunter combo with all your attack spells (like your omg orbs), 4 favored enemies (i suggest dumping your useless animal companion for Solitary Hunter alternate feature which adds your favored enemy bonuses to your attack rolls against favored enemies within 30 feet), and lots of skills. Covers lots of roles, you can also add in extra turning and extend/persistent/dmm persist to use your turn undead attempts to make a few buffs last all day, so that is: blaster, buffer, skirmisher, skill monkey all in one.

That's a good suggestion. For real win, take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor), which lets you prepare wizard spells in your ranger spell slots. This gives you access to:

The warmage spell list (automatically known and spontaneously cast)

The cleric spell list (via Rainbow Servant; automatically known and spontaneously cast. Thanks to Sacred Exorcist, you can even divinely persist them.)

The ranger spell list (use wands to conserve slots - most ranger exclusive spells are wand-worthy anyway. Otherwise, prepared.)

The wizard spell list (via Sword of the Arcane Order - prepared and cast from ranger slots. It's debatable whether you can wand or staff these as a result, but even if the answer's no, there's a LOT of great utility wizard spells among spell levels 1-4. You don't get sorcerer-only spells this way, but with this degree of versatility, you don't need to.)

Is that versatile enough for you as a single caster?

I would also like to highlight Nezkrul's Swift Hunter suggestion. This gives you a lot of skirmish damage, which applies to your ray spells (and it's easier to move and cast Scorching Ray than it is to move and full attack). More importantly, it gives you skirmish damage against favored enemies, even if they're normally immune to crits. There are a lot of undead, constructs, and elementals out there.

dumorimasoddaa

Aug 16, 2011 13:45:31

Also the pladin Prc can also take Sword of the Arcane Order and have that feed in to warmage as it's also a devine spellcasting class once Rainbow sevrent reaches lvl 10. Wether I could take it tiwce or taking it once would let me do both is iffy.

The orginal idea was to get in to Rainbow Servant as early as possable on the levels I don't gain caster level take warmage so I do to ensure I get full spell slots that side. When RS is at lvl 10 Warmage is both devine and arcane for PrCs and such thus you take Sacred Exorcist (dip one or higher for the perist) then the Pladid prc to alow you to take pladin feats spell casting tie to warmage. With Sword of the Arcane Order Warmage gains all missing Sor/Wiz spells as well as all Pal spells. Then you take battle casting to let you cast all those as swift. Top up with Warmage to reach CL 20. Fill the rest with likely range skrmisher as surgested.

If you can take Sword of the Arcane Order with the Paladin prc (it has a lvl require ment but it's more or less really the spell casting one) then you can easly have a CL 20 all spells bar ranger, bard and other prcs none core classes. The biggest flaw here is though while you are versitile as any caster could be you really lack in spells per day when you look at the options you have/could have had by taking a second caster class.

Right then working out this build am lookign to go human and to take 2 flaws for the four feats as such:

Heighten Spell (1), Earth Sense (H), Earth Spell (F1), Versatile Spellcaster (F2)
This will let me get Rainbow Sevrent at 2nd level lookign at taking vunrable and noncombatent for my flaws and foucsing on Ranged combat with my martal focus ranger will give me. That is DM aproved as is the possability of reshapeing some of the dormains and or powers I'd get surgesstions are welcome but not needed.

The next big thing is getting the skill points to enter Sacred Exorcist at 11th level should be doable with out issue and feat management to make the build not suck too hard if it runs out of spells.

I'm still lookign to track down the inverse of Versitile spellcaster as I sware I've seen it.

dumorimasoddaa

Aug 17, 2011 19:01:10

Qick question unless I'm reading wrong Or I've missed soemthing couldn't versital spellcaster on its own alow acces to 3rd level spells. You use 4 1st level slots for it not cheap but you should be able to cast them "when a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list"; would burning spell slots with versitile spell alone give you acess thus alowing you to cast the spells? If so this makes warmage evem more awesome as a starter class to PrC from.

Nezkrul

Aug 18, 2011 10:41:18

the feat only allows you to spend 2 lower level spell slots to cast a spell you know 1 level higher, it doesn't allow you to spend 4 and cast a level 2 higher.

you have to know the spell you are going to cast before you can cast it, and warmages only know the spells they have access to, as defined by their spell casting progression on the table, which means if they have a - they do not know ANY of that level's spells.

You cannot possibly get Rainbow Servant at 2nd level, it has a special requirement that I'm pretty sure a 5 hit point human could never accomplish by hisself. If your DM is allowing you to take it at 2nd level via your feat trick (which I disagree on working the way you want it to) then cool, but don't think this would be a normal thing to be able to do in DnD, i mean heck, if you can pretty much game the system to get into the prc at 2nd level, then why don't you just play a venerable dragonwrought kobold divine minion of Set wizard 1 / master of many forms 4 ?