Gestalt weirdness and caster level - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Gestalt weirdness and caster level

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rekres
Jun 14, 2008 23:34:39 Greetings,

First several assumptions:
1) DM is allowing gestalt characters.
2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture.
3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture.

We had an argument over what Caster Level the following character should be...

Race: Half-elf
1st: Cleric/Wizard
2nd: Cleric/Wizard
3rd: Cleric/Wizard
4th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge
5th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge
6th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge
7th: True Necromancer/Mytic Theurge
8th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge
9th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge
10th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge
11th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge

The DM thinks it should be caster level 18/18 (?)

My reasoning is that it is only caster level 11/11. At each level the gestalt character picks two classes and takes the BEST of each.

When combining Cleric and Wizard... you'd get +1 divine caster and +1 arcane caster.

When combining Cleric and Mystic Theurge, you'd get +1 divine caster and +1 divine caster/+1 arcane caster. You choose either +1 divine from Cleric or +1 divine from Mystic Theurge... you don't get +2 divine caster. Much the same way if you mixed Fighter and Barbarian you don't get +1 BAB from fighter *AND* +1 BAB from Barbarian.

He's also looking at the writeup of the Mystic Theurge, specifically the following: "This essentially means that she adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

He seems to think it means you take cleric levels + wizard levels + mystic theurge levels = total caster level.
My take -> cleric levels + MT levels = divine caster level, wizard levels + MT levels = arcane caster level.

My evidence here is the sample character in the WotC article "Character Class: Mystic Theurge - Blurring the Line"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060908a

The sample character is Cleric3/Wizard(Necro)3/Mystic Theurge3, and they specifically give him..
"Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 6th; melee touch +4):"
"Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 6th; ranged touch +3):"
So its caster level 6/6, not caster level 9!

I'm interested arguments both for and against my position... as well as any other relevant points I may have missed....

Thank you
#2
aniona_amakiir
Jun 15, 2008 7:13:39 Taken from the SRD:

Class Features
A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid's prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

* Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
* Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately.
* A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

So to answer your question:
They would not stack because both sides get the same benefit at the same time; namely +1 to effective caster class.
Also note that by RAW you cant have true necromancer and mystic thurge on the same level seeing as only 1 PrC/level is allowed. Indeed you aren't even technically allowed to use either class since they both fall under the "PrCs that are essentially class combinations" rule, with mystic thurge even mentioned as a specific example.

Oh and if the DM decides to use his reading of the rules anyways and you feel like completely screwing him over just create a ur-priest/mystic thurge :P
#3
kurashu
Jun 15, 2008 12:00:09
Also note that by RAW you cant have true necromancer and mystic thurge on the same level seeing as only 1 PrC/level is allowed. Indeed you aren't even technically allowed to use either class since they both fall under the "PrCs that are essentially class combinations" rule, with mystic thurge even mentioned as a specific example.

OP Said:

2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture.
3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture.

I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half.
#4
aniona_amakiir
Jun 15, 2008 13:46:22
OP Said:

2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture.
3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture.

I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half.

Serves me for skipping the lines pre-build :embarrass

Well my 2nd part still stands, identical class abilites gained at the same time overlap; and since both classes have +1 arcane/divine caster as class abilites on all/most levels they will not stack.
#5
rekres
Jun 15, 2008 16:07:02
OP Said:

2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture.
3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture.

I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half.

Well, the build I posted isn't my char, but one of the other party members.

My character has combinations involving Fighter, Barbarian, Bear Warrior, and Occult Slayer. Several levels he mixes Fighter/Barbarian... since both have +1 BAB, when combined they should be +2 BAB per level... right? If he's doing that with caster levels, then its only fair to do it for the fighter types.... ;)
#6
rekres
Jun 15, 2008 16:19:02
Oh and if the DM decides to use his reading of the rules anyways and you feel like completely screwing him over just create a ur-priest/mystic thurge :P

What book is the ur-priest from?
#7
Endarire
Jun 15, 2008 16:32:08 Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rekres Jun 14, 2008 23:34:39	Greetings, First several assumptions: 1) DM is allowing gestalt characters. 2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture. 3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture. We had an argument over what Caster Level the following character should be... Race: Half-elf 1st: Cleric/Wizard 2nd: Cleric/Wizard 3rd: Cleric/Wizard 4th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge 5th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge 6th: Cleric/Mystic Theurge 7th: True Necromancer/Mytic Theurge 8th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge 9th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge 10th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge 11th: True Necromancer/Mystic Theurge The DM thinks it should be caster level 18/18 (?) My reasoning is that it is only caster level 11/11. At each level the gestalt character picks two classes and takes the BEST of each. When combining Cleric and Wizard... you'd get +1 divine caster and +1 arcane caster. When combining Cleric and Mystic Theurge, you'd get +1 divine caster and +1 divine caster/+1 arcane caster. You choose either +1 divine from Cleric or +1 divine from Mystic Theurge... you don't get +2 divine caster. Much the same way if you mixed Fighter and Barbarian you don't get +1 BAB from fighter AND +1 BAB from Barbarian. He's also looking at the writeup of the Mystic Theurge, specifically the following: "This essentially means that she adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly." He seems to think it means you take cleric levels + wizard levels + mystic theurge levels = total caster level. My take -> cleric levels + MT levels = divine caster level, wizard levels + MT levels = arcane caster level. My evidence here is the sample character in the WotC article "Character Class: Mystic Theurge - Blurring the Line" http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060908a The sample character is Cleric3/Wizard(Necro)3/Mystic Theurge3, and they specifically give him.. "Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 6th; melee touch +4):" "Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 6th; ranged touch +3):" So its caster level 6/6, not caster level 9! I'm interested arguments both for and against my position... as well as any other relevant points I may have missed.... Thank you
#2 aniona_amakiir Jun 15, 2008 7:13:39	Taken from the SRD: Class Features A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid's prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is. A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however. * Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. * Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately. * A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters. So to answer your question: They would not stack because both sides get the same benefit at the same time; namely +1 to effective caster class. Also note that by RAW you cant have true necromancer and mystic thurge on the same level seeing as only 1 PrC/level is allowed. Indeed you aren't even technically allowed to use either class since they both fall under the "PrCs that are essentially class combinations" rule, with mystic thurge even mentioned as a specific example. Oh and if the DM decides to use his reading of the rules anyways and you feel like completely screwing him over just create a ur-priest/mystic thurge :P
#3 kurashu Jun 15, 2008 12:00:09	Also note that by RAW you cant have true necromancer and mystic thurge on the same level seeing as only 1 PrC/level is allowed. Indeed you aren't even technically allowed to use either class since they both fall under the "PrCs that are essentially class combinations" rule, with mystic thurge even mentioned as a specific example. OP Said: 2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture. 3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture. I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half.
#4 aniona_amakiir Jun 15, 2008 13:46:22	OP Said: 2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture. 3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture. I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half. Serves me for skipping the lines pre-build :embarrass Well my 2nd part still stands, identical class abilites gained at the same time overlap; and since both classes have +1 arcane/divine caster as class abilites on all/most levels they will not stack.
#5 rekres Jun 15, 2008 16:07:02	OP Said: 2) DM is allowing two prestige classes in gestalt mixture. 3) DM is allowing weird hybrid classes (like Mystic Theurge and True Necro) in gestalt mixture. I'd say you're right, seeing as you're only level 11 in the first place. But if he wants to let you have CL 18 at level 11 then by all means, go ahead and break the game right in half. Well, the build I posted isn't my char, but one of the other party members. My character has combinations involving Fighter, Barbarian, Bear Warrior, and Occult Slayer. Several levels he mixes Fighter/Barbarian... since both have +1 BAB, when combined they should be +2 BAB per level... right? If he's doing that with caster levels, then its only fair to do it for the fighter types.... ;)
#6 rekres Jun 15, 2008 16:19:02	Oh and if the DM decides to use his reading of the rules anyways and you feel like completely screwing him over just create a ur-priest/mystic thurge :P What book is the ur-priest from?
#7 Endarire Jun 15, 2008 16:32:08	Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine.