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Gestalt

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
furious5k
Apr 10, 2008 14:21:33 Well, I am starting a new campaign on Saturday and am pressed for time so I thought I'd throw it out here and ask you guys for some good ideas to get me started. I know, it is prefered to, at least, tell the people here what you want to play but the stats will be rolled at the session so I need options depending on the luck of the die.

The rules of the game:
Important: Characters are going to be Gestalt.
Books: Core and PHB2. Other books may be allowed as ruled by DM, feel free to suggest but take into account that there's a good chance I won't be allowed to use it. Base classes from Complete books are more likely to be approved then anything else.
Stats: To be rolled at the session
Level: Starting at 1, I wouldn't expect it to go beyond 8th level so early playability is important.

Please, share ideas on what would be good choices depending on varying stat rolls (e.g. mostly high, mostly mid, few high, few low, only one high, mostly high etc.)

Thank you for any suggestions, I appreciate it a lot.
#2
Wyvernhand
Apr 10, 2008 14:47:08 Human
Bard//Paladin
Cha>Con>Str>Wis>Dex>Int

Feats
1 Power Attack
B
3 Melodic Casting (CAdv)
6 Divine Might (CW)

If you can swing it, see if you can go Silverbrow human from Races of the Dragon and take Dragonfire Inspiration as your B feat. Otherwise its open. Silverbrow + Dragonfire would get you +Xd6 damage on all attacks depending on your Inspire Courage, and the damage would be cold because of your silver dragon heritage. (I think)

Spend your first 4k gold on a +2 cha item, it adds to bard spellcasting and all saves. This is very good.

Spend your 2nd 4k gold on a +1 Sudden Stunning (DMGII) greatsword or other 2handed slasher. Sudden Stunning is good for a cha based class. REALLY good.

From there, get a Badge of Valor (MIC) and continue to upgrade your cloak.

Your 1st level bard spell should be Inspirational Boost (SpC) and your 2nd level bard spells should probably be Glitterdust and Whirling Blade (SpC). Now you can Whirl a Blade that gets 2:1 PA from your full Pally BAB, bonus cold damage from Dragonfire, and you can add your +cha to damage by spending a turn attempt from Divine Might (CW). Very effective and fun in the 4-6 level range. By level 6 you can do about 40 damage at range very easily.

Also, see if you can use the Ebberon Song of the Heart feat/ACF. Basically you swap out Inspire Competance (meh) for +1 to all your other Bard songs, which is great.

I suggested some stuff that doesn't fall into your book range, but give it a request. Dragonfire Inspiration is good, but with PA and Divine Might, not overly required.
#3
davethemagicweasel
Apr 10, 2008 15:13:17 Warblade // Psion with the Psychic Recovery feat is a gestalt build I've been musing over lately.
#4
furious5k
Apr 10, 2008 15:45:25 Wyvernhand - that is a very nice suggestion. Not only is it a ridiculously charismatic fighter, but also one that can use that charisma very well with the bard's skill list. A greatsword weilding poet/singer, I love the notion.

A few questions - how feasible is the build if I do not get the DM to allow any of the non PHB1/2 stuff. Also, I could not find the following things: Silverbrow human and dragonfire inspiration even though I looked at the book, could someone point out the pages? Neither did I find Melodic Casting in CAdv. I'm going blind

Also, does Whirling Blade have to be used in a straight 60ft line?

DaveTheMagicWeasel - Thanks for the idea, unfortunately neither of those classes is PHB1/2 so I can't see my DM allowing it.
#5
Wyvernhand
Apr 10, 2008 15:55:36 My build is a little less potent without some of the builder book stuff. Optimizing Inpsire Courage has its own thread here on the CharOp boards, take a quick brouse through the Surealodex for more info. Most of the stuff used to jack up Inp Cour levels to scary amounts isn't core though, so you'd drop a little in power by not having access to books like Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. Dragonfire Inspiration is a nice little trick to boost damage by a couple points, but really, with 2hand PA and normal Inspire Courage, you'll pretty much even out because normal Inpire Courage grants a bonus to hit, which is then channeled through Power Attack for raw damage. Therefore, Dragonfire Inspiration averages +3.5 damage per point of Inspire Courage, whereas normal Inspire Courage averages +3 damage per point of Inspire Courage. I like it mostly for the dragon style points, and the bonuses those dice add to any duel wield characters like rogues/rangers or monks that don't get 2:1 Power Attack.

Dragonfire Inspiration is in Dragon Magic IIRC, and Silverbrow human subtype is in Races of the Dragon. Melodic Casting might not be in CAdv, although that's where I thought it was. Check Complete Arcane or Complete Mage or Complete Scoundrel as well. This feat is almost REQUIRED for any bard who wants to perform and cast, which are your 2 strongest class features.

Divine Might IS in Complete Warrior, toward the end of the feats section. In the small chance it isn't there, check Complete Divine.
#6
sinfire_titan
Apr 10, 2008 15:59:03 I've heard that Factotum/Warblade with Obtain Familiar is fairly strong. It practically doubles you combat capabilities (if you take Improve or Exalted Familiar, then you get really strong). Earth or Air Elementals, Imps, and Coures make for the best with this build. Plus, double Int synergy.

But for PH2+Core only, Monk/Knight says you are 2 skill points/level away from being equal to a Dragon in terms of power. But Wizard/Duskblade or Cleric/Duskblade or Druid/Duskblade is probably a lot stronger due to 9th level spells.
#7
blargney_the_second
Apr 10, 2008 15:59:36 Good Str: Barbarian||Scout with pounce
Good Dex: Ranger||Scout
Good Con: Fighter||Knight
Good Int: Duskblade||Beguiler
Good Wis: Druid||Monk
Good Cha: Bard||Dragon Shaman
#8
viktor_von_doom
Apr 10, 2008 16:09:20 If you can convince your DM, Knight/Crusader is a good one for letting absolutely nothing get passed you.
#9
davethemagicweasel
Apr 10, 2008 16:22:29
DaveTheMagicWeasel - Thanks for the idea, unfortunately neither of those classes is PHB1/2 so I can't see my DM allowing it.

Doh!

Okay, how about a Duskblade / Scout?

Move up to them and attack once - Arcane Channeling with Skirmish damage. Won't compete with full attacks at high levels, but if you're stopping at 8 it could be pretty hot.
#10
furious5k
Apr 10, 2008 18:20:42 That's a nice bunch of ideas guys. I would like to see some fleshed out suggestions for full casters (especially arcane) since the Bard spell-list makes me weep (I still love the notion of playing Bard/Paladin, though).

Here's my own stab at this and a question if it works.
1. Rogue 1 / Wizard 1
2. Beguiler 1 / Wizard 2
3. Beguiler 2 / Wizard 3
4. Rogue 2 / Wizard 4
5. Rogue 3 / Wizard 5
6. Rogue 4 / Wizard 6
7. Rogue 5 / Wizard 7
8. Rogue 6 / Wizard 8

What I see going for this build is as follows:
* Completely Core/PHB 2
* Full wizard spellcasting progression
* Sneak attack and +1 DC on spells through Cloaked Casting from Beguiler after feinting (take Improved Feint).
* 3D6 Sneak attack damage (xD4+1 + 3D6 magic missile! [vs 1 target])
* 7/8 BAB
* LOTS of skills
* Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Ranged legerdemain + other goodies

Question: How does taking a prestige class like Arcane Tricster or Mystic Theurge work with Gestalt if you continue taking levels in both classes? Does it cap at HD or would you technically be getting more SA/caster levels then you should be able to?

If it caps at what you could normally get with full 20 levels in a class, what would be a good replacement for Rogue for levels 5-8?

As always, thanks for the input!
#11
Wyvernhand
Apr 10, 2008 18:42:46 The bard spell list isn't that bad. Sure, its not very offensive (as in flashy evocation spells) but it still has a number of really good spells for each level. 1st level has Inspirational Boost from SpC which is AMAZING because it basically treats you as a bard 7 levels higher most of the time. Also good are Expeditious Retreat and Grease. For 2nd level you have Glitterdust, argueably the best disable of its level, and Whirling Blade, a very nice damage spell when combined with alternate sources of damage such as Inspire Courage and Divine Might. For 3rd level, Haste is AMAZING and will serve you well enough into future levels. 4th has beauties like Solid Fog and Dim Door, both very good spells.

As far as duel progression classes in Gestalt like Arcane Trickster, its generally disapproved of, but subject to DM approval. Its in the rules for gestalt, but those rules are all optional and more like guidelines anyway. Usually its frowned upon, though.
#12
furious5k
Apr 11, 2008 6:29:00 Well, I had a look at the gestalt rules (properly) and noticed the addendum about class combination Prcs. Still, the Arcane Trickster was just the icing, it should work nearly as well with only levels of Wizard. Any thoughts on how good it would be in play?

Also, I'd love to see someone give me a wizard/sorcerer (or any gish) ideas
#13
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 6:51:43 Wiz/Rogue straight up is pretty decent
Sorc/Pally is good too, for a very stalwart gish
Duskblade/Wiz is pretty silly, if you want to go overboard with the gish theme. I'm pretty sure you can arcane channel your wiz spells as well as your duskblade spells, which means you can pretty much WW attack with Otto's Irresitable Dance (STOP! Hammer Time!)
#14
furious5k
Apr 11, 2008 12:26:54 A question I have been contemplating is the survivability of a gish such as the Duskblade/Wizard. The damage output and abilities seem great, however, it has low-ish hitpoints and no AC to speak of. With Int
#15
ksbsnowowl
Apr 11, 2008 12:39:48 Druid//Rogue or Druid//Scout

You have great stealth and spying abilities (especially once you can wildshape), and you have some good touch spells at fairly low level, which can be a great help for sneak attack (Produce Flame, Flame Blade). And you have a flanking partner as a class feature (animal companion).

Scout is nice if you wish to focus on big cat wildshapes with pounce (leopard - tiger - dire lion).

You also have all good saves, Med BAB, and great skill points. Your HP are respectable too.
#16
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 12:49:58 AC is a lame concept anyway. No matter how high you make it, things are still gonna hit you. Focus instead on mobility and miss chances. Blink (and Greater Blink), Mirror Image (and Greater Mirror Image), Invisibility (and Greater Invisibility), Displacement, Blur, and many other effects grant you miss chances. Hitting a mage with both Greater Blinking and Greater Mirror Image running is one of the hardest things to do unless you build a character around it. For mobility, Fly is the ultimate utility. You can grab the feat Flyby Attack be better than Spring Attack, moving in, channel spell and attack once, then moving out. Much later, you can get things like Polymorph and a few other choice spells that make your AC high enough that it would make a Dwarven Defender bashful, but until then, miss chances are king.

Hint hint, look the the Heart of..... series of spell in Complete Mage. They are good for most of your defensive needs, and if you have all of them up, you are almost completely immune to rogues. Those poor sad little rogues...
#17
operation_shoestring
Apr 11, 2008 14:04:13 Factotum//Wiz >>>> Rogue//Wiz, as a note.

2 inspiration to auto-bypass SR? 3 Inspiration for AN EXTRA STANDARD ACTION? Yes, please.

If you want to be a bard/paladin, either you have to be a Paladin of Freedom or take Devoted Performer.

Featwise, Snowflake Wardance is awesome.
#18
Wyvernhand
Apr 11, 2008 14:11:54 Yea, Factotum//Wizard is like a nova bomb waiting to go off every encounter. Sure, you hemorage spell slots, but things don't usually live to see the 2nd round of combat anyway...Silly but true.
#19
operation_shoestring
Apr 11, 2008 14:37:25
Yea, Factotum//Wizard is like a nova bomb waiting to go off every encounter. Sure, you hemorage spell slots, but things don't usually live to see the 2nd round of combat anyway...Silly but true.

Yep. Factotum is HAX in gestalt. Factotum20//Wizard5/Unseen seer5/Divine Oracle10 is strong without being too overpowered if you plan on continuing into epic. The capstone for Divine oracle is great fun, but if you aren't going to get to use it (that is, if you aren't going epic), don't bother taking more than 4 levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 furious5k Apr 10, 2008 14:21:33	Well, I am starting a new campaign on Saturday and am pressed for time so I thought I'd throw it out here and ask you guys for some good ideas to get me started. I know, it is prefered to, at least, tell the people here what you want to play but the stats will be rolled at the session so I need options depending on the luck of the die. The rules of the game: Important: Characters are going to be Gestalt. Books: Core and PHB2. Other books may be allowed as ruled by DM, feel free to suggest but take into account that there's a good chance I won't be allowed to use it. Base classes from Complete books are more likely to be approved then anything else. Stats: To be rolled at the session Level: Starting at 1, I wouldn't expect it to go beyond 8th level so early playability is important. Please, share ideas on what would be good choices depending on varying stat rolls (e.g. mostly high, mostly mid, few high, few low, only one high, mostly high etc.) Thank you for any suggestions, I appreciate it a lot.
#2 Wyvernhand Apr 10, 2008 14:47:08	Human Bard//Paladin Cha>Con>Str>Wis>Dex>Int Feats 1 Power Attack B 3 Melodic Casting (CAdv) 6 Divine Might (CW) If you can swing it, see if you can go Silverbrow human from Races of the Dragon and take Dragonfire Inspiration as your B feat. Otherwise its open. Silverbrow + Dragonfire would get you +Xd6 damage on all attacks depending on your Inspire Courage, and the damage would be cold because of your silver dragon heritage. (I think) Spend your first 4k gold on a +2 cha item, it adds to bard spellcasting and all saves. This is very good. Spend your 2nd 4k gold on a +1 Sudden Stunning (DMGII) greatsword or other 2handed slasher. Sudden Stunning is good for a cha based class. REALLY good. From there, get a Badge of Valor (MIC) and continue to upgrade your cloak. Your 1st level bard spell should be Inspirational Boost (SpC) and your 2nd level bard spells should probably be Glitterdust and Whirling Blade (SpC). Now you can Whirl a Blade that gets 2:1 PA from your full Pally BAB, bonus cold damage from Dragonfire, and you can add your +cha to damage by spending a turn attempt from Divine Might (CW). Very effective and fun in the 4-6 level range. By level 6 you can do about 40 damage at range very easily. Also, see if you can use the Ebberon Song of the Heart feat/ACF. Basically you swap out Inspire Competance (meh) for +1 to all your other Bard songs, which is great. I suggested some stuff that doesn't fall into your book range, but give it a request. Dragonfire Inspiration is good, but with PA and Divine Might, not overly required.
#3 davethemagicweasel Apr 10, 2008 15:13:17	Warblade // Psion with the Psychic Recovery feat is a gestalt build I've been musing over lately.
#4 furious5k Apr 10, 2008 15:45:25	Wyvernhand - that is a very nice suggestion. Not only is it a ridiculously charismatic fighter, but also one that can use that charisma very well with the bard's skill list. A greatsword weilding poet/singer, I love the notion. A few questions - how feasible is the build if I do not get the DM to allow any of the non PHB1/2 stuff. Also, I could not find the following things: Silverbrow human and dragonfire inspiration even though I looked at the book, could someone point out the pages? Neither did I find Melodic Casting in CAdv. I'm going blind Also, does Whirling Blade have to be used in a straight 60ft line? DaveTheMagicWeasel - Thanks for the idea, unfortunately neither of those classes is PHB1/2 so I can't see my DM allowing it.
#5 Wyvernhand Apr 10, 2008 15:55:36	My build is a little less potent without some of the builder book stuff. Optimizing Inpsire Courage has its own thread here on the CharOp boards, take a quick brouse through the Surealodex for more info. Most of the stuff used to jack up Inp Cour levels to scary amounts isn't core though, so you'd drop a little in power by not having access to books like Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. Dragonfire Inspiration is a nice little trick to boost damage by a couple points, but really, with 2hand PA and normal Inspire Courage, you'll pretty much even out because normal Inpire Courage grants a bonus to hit, which is then channeled through Power Attack for raw damage. Therefore, Dragonfire Inspiration averages +3.5 damage per point of Inspire Courage, whereas normal Inspire Courage averages +3 damage per point of Inspire Courage. I like it mostly for the dragon style points, and the bonuses those dice add to any duel wield characters like rogues/rangers or monks that don't get 2:1 Power Attack. Dragonfire Inspiration is in Dragon Magic IIRC, and Silverbrow human subtype is in Races of the Dragon. Melodic Casting might not be in CAdv, although that's where I thought it was. Check Complete Arcane or Complete Mage or Complete Scoundrel as well. This feat is almost REQUIRED for any bard who wants to perform and cast, which are your 2 strongest class features. Divine Might IS in Complete Warrior, toward the end of the feats section. In the small chance it isn't there, check Complete Divine.
#6 sinfire_titan Apr 10, 2008 15:59:03	I've heard that Factotum/Warblade with Obtain Familiar is fairly strong. It practically doubles you combat capabilities (if you take Improve or Exalted Familiar, then you get really strong). Earth or Air Elementals, Imps, and Coures make for the best with this build. Plus, double Int synergy. But for PH2+Core only, Monk/Knight says you are 2 skill points/level away from being equal to a Dragon in terms of power. But Wizard/Duskblade or Cleric/Duskblade or Druid/Duskblade is probably a lot stronger due to 9th level spells.
#7 blargney_the_second Apr 10, 2008 15:59:36	Good Str: Barbarian\|\|Scout with pounce Good Dex: Ranger\|\|Scout Good Con: Fighter\|\|Knight Good Int: Duskblade\|\|Beguiler Good Wis: Druid\|\|Monk Good Cha: Bard\|\|Dragon Shaman
#8 viktor_von_doom Apr 10, 2008 16:09:20	If you can convince your DM, Knight/Crusader is a good one for letting absolutely nothing get passed you.
#9 davethemagicweasel Apr 10, 2008 16:22:29	DaveTheMagicWeasel - Thanks for the idea, unfortunately neither of those classes is PHB1/2 so I can't see my DM allowing it. Doh! Okay, how about a Duskblade / Scout? Move up to them and attack once - Arcane Channeling with Skirmish damage. Won't compete with full attacks at high levels, but if you're stopping at 8 it could be pretty hot.
#10 furious5k Apr 10, 2008 18:20:42	That's a nice bunch of ideas guys. I would like to see some fleshed out suggestions for full casters (especially arcane) since the Bard spell-list makes me weep (I still love the notion of playing Bard/Paladin, though). Here's my own stab at this and a question if it works. 1. Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 2. Beguiler 1 / Wizard 2 3. Beguiler 2 / Wizard 3 4. Rogue 2 / Wizard 4 5. Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 6. Rogue 4 / Wizard 6 7. Rogue 5 / Wizard 7 8. Rogue 6 / Wizard 8 What I see going for this build is as follows: * Completely Core/PHB 2 * Full wizard spellcasting progression * Sneak attack and +1 DC on spells through Cloaked Casting from Beguiler after feinting (take Improved Feint). * 3D6 Sneak attack damage (xD4+1 + 3D6 magic missile! [vs 1 target]) * 7/8 BAB * LOTS of skills * Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Ranged legerdemain + other goodies Question: How does taking a prestige class like Arcane Tricster or Mystic Theurge work with Gestalt if you continue taking levels in both classes? Does it cap at HD or would you technically be getting more SA/caster levels then you should be able to? If it caps at what you could normally get with full 20 levels in a class, what would be a good replacement for Rogue for levels 5-8? As always, thanks for the input!
#11 Wyvernhand Apr 10, 2008 18:42:46	The bard spell list isn't that bad. Sure, its not very offensive (as in flashy evocation spells) but it still has a number of really good spells for each level. 1st level has Inspirational Boost from SpC which is AMAZING because it basically treats you as a bard 7 levels higher most of the time. Also good are Expeditious Retreat and Grease. For 2nd level you have Glitterdust, argueably the best disable of its level, and Whirling Blade, a very nice damage spell when combined with alternate sources of damage such as Inspire Courage and Divine Might. For 3rd level, Haste is AMAZING and will serve you well enough into future levels. 4th has beauties like Solid Fog and Dim Door, both very good spells. As far as duel progression classes in Gestalt like Arcane Trickster, its generally disapproved of, but subject to DM approval. Its in the rules for gestalt, but those rules are all optional and more like guidelines anyway. Usually its frowned upon, though.
#12 furious5k Apr 11, 2008 6:29:00	Well, I had a look at the gestalt rules (properly) and noticed the addendum about class combination Prcs. Still, the Arcane Trickster was just the icing, it should work nearly as well with only levels of Wizard. Any thoughts on how good it would be in play? Also, I'd love to see someone give me a wizard/sorcerer (or any gish) ideas
#13 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 6:51:43	Wiz/Rogue straight up is pretty decent Sorc/Pally is good too, for a very stalwart gish Duskblade/Wiz is pretty silly, if you want to go overboard with the gish theme. I'm pretty sure you can arcane channel your wiz spells as well as your duskblade spells, which means you can pretty much WW attack with Otto's Irresitable Dance (STOP! Hammer Time!)
#14 furious5k Apr 11, 2008 12:26:54	A question I have been contemplating is the survivability of a gish such as the Duskblade/Wizard. The damage output and abilities seem great, however, it has low-ish hitpoints and no AC to speak of. With Int
#15 ksbsnowowl Apr 11, 2008 12:39:48	Druid//Rogue or Druid//Scout You have great stealth and spying abilities (especially once you can wildshape), and you have some good touch spells at fairly low level, which can be a great help for sneak attack (Produce Flame, Flame Blade). And you have a flanking partner as a class feature (animal companion). Scout is nice if you wish to focus on big cat wildshapes with pounce (leopard - tiger - dire lion). You also have all good saves, Med BAB, and great skill points. Your HP are respectable too.
#16 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 12:49:58	AC is a lame concept anyway. No matter how high you make it, things are still gonna hit you. Focus instead on mobility and miss chances. Blink (and Greater Blink), Mirror Image (and Greater Mirror Image), Invisibility (and Greater Invisibility), Displacement, Blur, and many other effects grant you miss chances. Hitting a mage with both Greater Blinking and Greater Mirror Image running is one of the hardest things to do unless you build a character around it. For mobility, Fly is the ultimate utility. You can grab the feat Flyby Attack be better than Spring Attack, moving in, channel spell and attack once, then moving out. Much later, you can get things like Polymorph and a few other choice spells that make your AC high enough that it would make a Dwarven Defender bashful, but until then, miss chances are king. Hint hint, look the the Heart of..... series of spell in Complete Mage. They are good for most of your defensive needs, and if you have all of them up, you are almost completely immune to rogues. Those poor sad little rogues...
#17 operation_shoestring Apr 11, 2008 14:04:13	Factotum//Wiz >>>> Rogue//Wiz, as a note. 2 inspiration to auto-bypass SR? 3 Inspiration for AN EXTRA STANDARD ACTION? Yes, please. If you want to be a bard/paladin, either you have to be a Paladin of Freedom or take Devoted Performer. Featwise, Snowflake Wardance is awesome.
#18 Wyvernhand Apr 11, 2008 14:11:54	Yea, Factotum//Wizard is like a nova bomb waiting to go off every encounter. Sure, you hemorage spell slots, but things don't usually live to see the 2nd round of combat anyway...Silly but true.
#19 operation_shoestring Apr 11, 2008 14:37:25	Yea, Factotum//Wizard is like a nova bomb waiting to go off every encounter. Sure, you hemorage spell slots, but things don't usually live to see the 2nd round of combat anyway...Silly but true. Yep. Factotum is HAX in gestalt. Factotum20//Wizard5/Unseen seer5/Divine Oracle10 is strong without being too overpowered if you plan on continuing into epic. The capstone for Divine oracle is great fun, but if you aren't going to get to use it (that is, if you aren't going epic), don't bother taking more than 4 levels.