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Get dodge without prereq?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
canuberon
Nov 09, 2011 6:20:21 Hello all,

Does any of you know of a way to get 'dodge' without the 13 DEX prereq?

I want to make a Deepwarden/ Dwarven Defender so any dip with full BAB would be preferred.

Thanks in advance!
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Nov 09, 2011 9:29:01 Only way I know of is Cobra Strike Monk.
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/varia...

As an aside, check the 3.5 FAQ. The Deepwarden ability IS limited by your armors max Dex, as lame as that is.
#3
canuberon
Nov 09, 2011 11:16:06 Thx for the quick reply Tempest!

I talked with my DM about the Deepwarden ability and he judges that there isn't a CON limit on AC (I read the discussion on these forums and pointed him towards them, he judged in my favor ).
Wanted to go Kensai after 2 levels DD but decided against it.
I really want this character to be an immovable rock that can take a serious hit.

I was thinking about a build like this:

Ranger1: EWP: Broadblade Shortsword
Fighter1: Heavy Armor Optimization
Fighter2: Combat Expertise, Dodge
Fighter3
Fighter4: Endurance
Deepwarden1: Toughness
Deepwarden2
Dwarven Defender1
Dwarven Defender2: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

AC 49 Without any magic items (Mountain Plate, Tower shield), Can't hit the broad side of a barn though...
#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Nov 09, 2011 11:30:00
Thx for the quick reply Tempest!

I talked with my DM about the Deepwarden ability and he judges that it isn't that extreme to let it not be limited (which I like very much).

I agree, personally. Just wanted to point out it's unofficial.

Wanted to go Kensai after 2 levels DD but decided against it.
I really want this character to be an immovable rock that can take a serious hit.

I was thinking about a build like this:

Ranger1: EWP: Broadblade Shortsword
Fighter1: Heavy Armor Optimization
Fighter2: Combat Expertise, Dodge
Fighter3
Fighter4: Endurance
Deepwarden1: Toughness
Deepwarden2
Dwarven Defender1
Dwarven Defender2: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization

AC 49 Without any magic items (Mountain Plate, Tower shield), Can't hit the broad side of a barn though...

You also can't outrun a barn, for what its worth. "Oh, no, the dwarven defender is after us! Quick, everybody! Walk briskly!"

Personally I wouldn't bother with the Defender. It's very passive (AC, save bonuses, etc - all static boosts to numbers instead of player choices) and its signature ability makes you LESS of a threat on the battlefield (anything that has ridiculous AC, HP, and saves, but can't move, tells everything that recognizes it that it should be ignored and evaded; unless you're in narrow corridors you'll have a hard time keeping Stance active.) Not to mention it makes you a liability in some cases (if I manage to knock you prone - yes, it's hard, but it's still doable - you can't stand from prone without ending your stance, which fatigues you).

I think you'd be far better suited using a Crusader (Tome of Battle) with the Stone Power feat. This approach is amazingly tough in its own right. Crusaders have a delayed damage pool - some damage they take doesn't hit their HP until the end of their next turn. Stone Power can create a small number of temporary hit points each round every time you attack; put together, this means that some of your damage constantly hits a buffer of temporary HP instead of your regular HP. They also pick up stances and maneuvers that can be used to heal themselves or their allies to some extent, and similar attacks that grant them improved DR. If you need the immovable rock aspect to be stronger, the same book has the Deepstone Sentinel, which is dwarf-only and is based around a signature Mountain Fortress Stance, which is exactly what it says on the tin. (It works surprisingly well with Dungeon Crasher Fighter, as well - Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5 would be an interesting mix of Immovable Object and Unstoppable Force. (If you don't want the upgraded Dungeon Crasher, Fighter 2 / Crusader 8 or even Crusader 10 works just fine.)
#5
canuberon
Nov 09, 2011 12:43:15
You also can't outrun a barn, for what its worth. "Oh, no, the dwarven defender is after us! Quick, everybody! Walk briskly!"

I lol'ed at that one!

I really wanted to try the dungeon crasher fighter but I thought it was impossable (in practice) to get all the attacks that the thread advertises... Also couldn't figure out a weapon that wasn't a 3d party source to go bull rushing with. Is it possible to get a decent deepwarden dungeon crasher with 6 DEX?

Tome of Battle isn't in my repertoire yet and UA is right out with my DM. All the other stuff is OK. The character doesn't have to stand still (I'm aware that it isn't great), but I really want him to be a tank. Big Stupid Fighter all the way. We got an optimized Wiz and a Rogue for damage and battlefield control.

BTW: Thx again for the quick reply.
#6
draco1119
Nov 09, 2011 12:54:40
I really wanted to try the dungeon crasher fighter but I thought it was impossable (in practice) to get all the attacks that the thread advertises... Also couldn't figure out a weapon that wasn't a 3d party source to go bull rushing with. Is it possible to get a decent deepwarden dungeon crasher with 6 DEX?

Tome of Battle isn't in my repertoire yet and UA is right out with my DM. All the other stuff is OK. The character doesn't have to stand still (I'm aware that it isn't great), but I really want him to be a tank. Big Stupid Fighter all the way. We got an optimized Wiz and a Rogue for damage and battlefield control.

BTW: Thx again for the quick reply.

Really, you can bull rush with pretty much anything. Two-handed weapons are preferred to maximize damage output.
I can't stress strongly enough just how much better the ToB is for most melee characters. I've found the Crusader to be a better Paladin than a paladin, and the swordsage and warblade are different ways to look at rogues/monks and fighters, respectively. And like Tempest said, the Deepstone Sentinel is a more powerful, more mobile version of the Dwarven Defender, making it worthwhile even without dungeon crasher shenanigans.

#7
canuberon
Nov 09, 2011 13:00:48 So you agree with Tempest on the:
Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5

I'll take a look at the Dungeon crasher thread again on how to do the feats and stuff there.
I guess the HP and AC are a bit lower but the dmg and potential to hit is a lot higher no?
#8
draco1119
Nov 09, 2011 13:08:59
So you agree with Tempest on the:
Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5

I'll take a look at the Dungeon crasher thread again on how to do the feats and stuff there.
I guess the HP and AC are a bit lower but the dmg and potential to hit is a lot higher no?

Sadly, I don't have the book for Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape, IIRC), so I can't really advise you on that. I know that there is some sort of benefit that the DC fighter variant gets at 6th level, otherwise I'd recommend no more than 4 levels in fighter. But I love LOVE LOVE the Crusader. I wouldn't use mountain plate; I was always a bigger fan of Battle Plate. And weren't you going to use the Deepwarden for a higher AC?

#9
Tempest_Stormwind
Nov 09, 2011 13:55:08 Bull Rush doesn't require a weapon. Its actually auto-hitting. I bring it up with Deepstone only because they can summon stone pillars at will to slam people into. They can also Bull Rush with Charging Minotaur, a great 1st-level maneuver.

The only "weapon" Bull Rush uses is if you have Knockback, which requires Large size or Powerful Build. Thus Dungeon Crasher is optional. You might want more Crusader instead.

Be advised that D&D tanking.is usually all about the AoO. ESPECIALLY with crusaders (Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades, etc). With 6 dex, not even Combat Reflexes can save you.
#10
canuberon
Nov 14, 2011 6:27:37 I'm just trying out a few builds here and this doesn't look bad. My AC isn't great though:

Crusader 1
Fighter 1 =>6
Deepwarden 1 =>3
Deepstone Sentinel 1 =>...

I could switch out 1 lvl of Deepwarden for 1 Crusader at the end to use less cross class skills.

My stats are 18,14,14,10,10,8
My DM thinks rolling or point buy is a bad thing :P

That's the reason I wanted a very low DEX, AC will come from CON, Reflex is solved by a feat, ...
But I agree that I should be able to AoO more. Not sure how to get that except more DEX though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 canuberon Nov 09, 2011 6:20:21	Hello all, Does any of you know of a way to get 'dodge' without the 13 DEX prereq? I want to make a Deepwarden/ Dwarven Defender so any dip with full BAB would be preferred. Thanks in advance!
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 09, 2011 9:29:01	Only way I know of is Cobra Strike Monk. www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/varia... As an aside, check the 3.5 FAQ. The Deepwarden ability IS limited by your armors max Dex, as lame as that is.
#3 canuberon Nov 09, 2011 11:16:06	Thx for the quick reply Tempest! I talked with my DM about the Deepwarden ability and he judges that there isn't a CON limit on AC (I read the discussion on these forums and pointed him towards them, he judged in my favor ). Wanted to go Kensai after 2 levels DD but decided against it. I really want this character to be an immovable rock that can take a serious hit. I was thinking about a build like this: Ranger1: EWP: Broadblade Shortsword Fighter1: Heavy Armor Optimization Fighter2: Combat Expertise, Dodge Fighter3 Fighter4: Endurance Deepwarden1: Toughness Deepwarden2 Dwarven Defender1 Dwarven Defender2: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization AC 49 Without any magic items (Mountain Plate, Tower shield), Can't hit the broad side of a barn though...
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 09, 2011 11:30:00	Thx for the quick reply Tempest! I talked with my DM about the Deepwarden ability and he judges that it isn't that extreme to let it not be limited (which I like very much). I agree, personally. Just wanted to point out it's unofficial. Wanted to go Kensai after 2 levels DD but decided against it. I really want this character to be an immovable rock that can take a serious hit. I was thinking about a build like this: Ranger1: EWP: Broadblade Shortsword Fighter1: Heavy Armor Optimization Fighter2: Combat Expertise, Dodge Fighter3 Fighter4: Endurance Deepwarden1: Toughness Deepwarden2 Dwarven Defender1 Dwarven Defender2: Greater Heavy Armor Optimization AC 49 Without any magic items (Mountain Plate, Tower shield), Can't hit the broad side of a barn though... You also can't outrun a barn, for what its worth. "Oh, no, the dwarven defender is after us! Quick, everybody! Walk briskly!" Personally I wouldn't bother with the Defender. It's very passive (AC, save bonuses, etc - all static boosts to numbers instead of player choices) and its signature ability makes you LESS of a threat on the battlefield (anything that has ridiculous AC, HP, and saves, but can't move, tells everything that recognizes it that it should be ignored and evaded; unless you're in narrow corridors you'll have a hard time keeping Stance active.) Not to mention it makes you a liability in some cases (if I manage to knock you prone - yes, it's hard, but it's still doable - you can't stand from prone without ending your stance, which fatigues you). I think you'd be far better suited using a Crusader (Tome of Battle) with the Stone Power feat. This approach is amazingly tough in its own right. Crusaders have a delayed damage pool - some damage they take doesn't hit their HP until the end of their next turn. Stone Power can create a small number of temporary hit points each round every time you attack; put together, this means that some of your damage constantly hits a buffer of temporary HP instead of your regular HP. They also pick up stances and maneuvers that can be used to heal themselves or their allies to some extent, and similar attacks that grant them improved DR. If you need the immovable rock aspect to be stronger, the same book has the Deepstone Sentinel, which is dwarf-only and is based around a signature Mountain Fortress Stance, which is exactly what it says on the tin. (It works surprisingly well with Dungeon Crasher Fighter, as well - Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5 would be an interesting mix of Immovable Object and Unstoppable Force. (If you don't want the upgraded Dungeon Crasher, Fighter 2 / Crusader 8 or even Crusader 10 works just fine.)
#5 canuberon Nov 09, 2011 12:43:15	You also can't outrun a barn, for what its worth. "Oh, no, the dwarven defender is after us! Quick, everybody! Walk briskly!" I lol'ed at that one! I really wanted to try the dungeon crasher fighter but I thought it was impossable (in practice) to get all the attacks that the thread advertises... Also couldn't figure out a weapon that wasn't a 3d party source to go bull rushing with. Is it possible to get a decent deepwarden dungeon crasher with 6 DEX? Tome of Battle isn't in my repertoire yet and UA is right out with my DM. All the other stuff is OK. The character doesn't have to stand still (I'm aware that it isn't great), but I really want him to be a tank. Big Stupid Fighter all the way. We got an optimized Wiz and a Rogue for damage and battlefield control. BTW: Thx again for the quick reply.
#6 draco1119 Nov 09, 2011 12:54:40	I really wanted to try the dungeon crasher fighter but I thought it was impossable (in practice) to get all the attacks that the thread advertises... Also couldn't figure out a weapon that wasn't a 3d party source to go bull rushing with. Is it possible to get a decent deepwarden dungeon crasher with 6 DEX? Tome of Battle isn't in my repertoire yet and UA is right out with my DM. All the other stuff is OK. The character doesn't have to stand still (I'm aware that it isn't great), but I really want him to be a tank. Big Stupid Fighter all the way. We got an optimized Wiz and a Rogue for damage and battlefield control. BTW: Thx again for the quick reply. Really, you can bull rush with pretty much anything. Two-handed weapons are preferred to maximize damage output. I can't stress strongly enough just how much better the ToB is for most melee characters. I've found the Crusader to be a better Paladin than a paladin, and the swordsage and warblade are different ways to look at rogues/monks and fighters, respectively. And like Tempest said, the Deepstone Sentinel is a more powerful, more mobile version of the Dwarven Defender, making it worthwhile even without dungeon crasher shenanigans.
#7 canuberon Nov 09, 2011 13:00:48	So you agree with Tempest on the: Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5 I'll take a look at the Dungeon crasher thread again on how to do the feats and stuff there. I guess the HP and AC are a bit lower but the dmg and potential to hit is a lot higher no?
#8 draco1119 Nov 09, 2011 13:08:59	So you agree with Tempest on the: Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6 / Crusader 4 / Deepstone Sentinel 5 I'll take a look at the Dungeon crasher thread again on how to do the feats and stuff there. I guess the HP and AC are a bit lower but the dmg and potential to hit is a lot higher no? Sadly, I don't have the book for Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape, IIRC), so I can't really advise you on that. I know that there is some sort of benefit that the DC fighter variant gets at 6th level, otherwise I'd recommend no more than 4 levels in fighter. But I love LOVE LOVE the Crusader. I wouldn't use mountain plate; I was always a bigger fan of Battle Plate. And weren't you going to use the Deepwarden for a higher AC?
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 09, 2011 13:55:08	Bull Rush doesn't require a weapon. Its actually auto-hitting. I bring it up with Deepstone only because they can summon stone pillars at will to slam people into. They can also Bull Rush with Charging Minotaur, a great 1st-level maneuver. The only "weapon" Bull Rush uses is if you have Knockback, which requires Large size or Powerful Build. Thus Dungeon Crasher is optional. You might want more Crusader instead. Be advised that D&D tanking.is usually all about the AoO. ESPECIALLY with crusaders (Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades, etc). With 6 dex, not even Combat Reflexes can save you.
#10 canuberon Nov 14, 2011 6:27:37	I'm just trying out a few builds here and this doesn't look bad. My AC isn't great though: Crusader 1 Fighter 1 =>6 Deepwarden 1 =>3 Deepstone Sentinel 1 =>... I could switch out 1 lvl of Deepwarden for 1 Crusader at the end to use less cross class skills. My stats are 18,14,14,10,10,8 My DM thinks rolling or point buy is a bad thing :P That's the reason I wanted a very low DEX, AC will come from CON, Reflex is solved by a feat, ... But I agree that I should be able to AoO more. Not sure how to get that except more DEX though.