Getting DR 5/-- for three feats: too powerful? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Getting DR 5/-- for three feats: too powerful?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
symphonic_tempest
Mar 11, 2009 10:19:16 I have a lvl 6 player who's taken the following feats, each of which is a pre-req for the next: Least Aberrant Dragonmark, Mark of Madness, Mark of Xoriat (both found here). It's an Eberron campaign. The last feat gives him DR 5/byeshk, which is a metal I'm sure no one will ever use to make a weapon with in this campaign. So, essentially DR 5/-- for the cost of three feats. (He's a melee type, TWF with high Dex, ranger 2/fighter 2/Child of Khyber 2.)

Too powerful at level 6?
#2
pithica
Mar 11, 2009 10:29:02 It's pretty gross, but I wouldn't say it's too powerful at 6th level.

At that level, he's fast approaching the realm where most casters really start to come into their own with damage alternatives or energy attacks and most mobs start dealing secondary damage of one form or another.

If he had it at first level, I'd say it's close to broken, as most things at that level just hit you and that's all they do. At 6th, though, it's probably about a 50% reduction, in physical, which is awesome, but not crazy broken. By 10 it won't even work most of the time and by 15, 5 points off of a single physical attack that it does work on may only be a 10% reduction in damage.
#3
phaedrusxy
Mar 11, 2009 10:54:17 No... I wouldn't even take 3 feats for that. Also, aren't there some likely RP repercussions for having an Aberrant Mark of Xoriat? :D
#4
reis
Mar 11, 2009 11:00:05 no in fact its very sub-optimal, also byeshk is not that rare in Eberron among certain groups.
#5
jameswilliamogle
Mar 11, 2009 11:06:49 DR 5/- is powerful, but not overpowering.

Monsters usually don't have a single powerful attack (there are exceptions: TRex and Iron Golem, for just 2 examples), and so against most opponents you can multiply that DR by 2 to 3 for the actual effectiveness. You'll really help out the party healer by being a fully melee character and taking these feats.

Around these parts, people will say offense is always the better thing to focus on than defense, though, and in a fully optimized party this is true advice.

Would I spend 3 feats to get it? Heck, no. Those same feats could be Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shocktrooper. The Headless Charge maneuver does combine very well with DR, though, so there is that mitigating factor.

Would I take a LA to get DR? Probably, but probably just LA +1, and I'm going to be forced into the melee role from it.
#6
hijaxx
Mar 11, 2009 11:36:50 at level 1 it would be crazy broken, at level 6, its awesome, but not all that powerful for three feats
#7
carnivore
Mar 11, 2009 11:50:47
DR 5/- is powerful, but not overpowering.

Monsters usually don't have a single powerful attack (there are exceptions: TRex and Iron Golem, for just 2 examples), and so against most opponents you can multiply that DR by 2 to 3 for the actual effectiveness. You'll really help out the party healer by being a fully melee character and taking these feats.

Around these parts, people will say offense is always the better thing to focus on than defense, though, and in a fully optimized party this is true advice.

Would I spend 3 feats to get it? Heck, no. Those same feats could be Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shocktrooper. The Headless Charge maneuver does combine very well with DR, though, so there is that mitigating factor.

Would I take a LA to get DR? Probably, but probably just LA +1, and I'm going to be forced into the melee role from it.

+1

DR 5/byeshk .... would just cover the basic Str bonus for most characters.... heres something far better:

Pixie 4/ Ranger 2 .... with these 3 feats:

Fey Heritage[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment.
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus on Will saving throws against enchantment effects.

Fey Skin[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment, Fey Heritage.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction (overcome by cold iron) equal to 1 + the number of feats you have that list Fey Heritage as a prerequisite (including such feats that you take after gaining this one). For example, if you have Fey Skin and Fey Presence, you would have damage reduction 3/cold iron.
This value stacks with any similar damage reduction you might have from your type, subtype, race, or class, but not from other sources, such as spells or magic items.

Fey Presence[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment, Fey Heritage, character level 6th.
Benefit: You gain the following spell-like abilities, each usable once per day: charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self. Your caster level equals your character level.

then you would have DR 13/ Cold iron + charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self useable 1/day

:D
#8
symphonic_tempest
Mar 11, 2009 11:58:32 Okay, sounds fair. Though the campaign isn't that powerful right now, I'll have to go through my encounters and rebalance them slightly. My main worry was that he'd be significantly more powerful than the other characters, but I don't think that'll be a huge problem.
#9
carnivore
Mar 11, 2009 12:05:38 as jameswilliamogle said... there are better uses 3 feats could be spent on.... Feats can do more than just give a little DR.... they can make a Character Stealthy, give Fast healing, etc....

he might be resistant to most of the lower-level Damage by some creatures... but he wont be Invincible(he might think he is... but he will be very wrong)

:D
#10
tytalus
Mar 11, 2009 12:23:16 The official Roll With It feat [SS], taken 3 times, results in a better DR 6/--. It requires Toughness, though.
#11
pithica
Mar 11, 2009 12:38:22 For more perspective...http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589587

That's broken. 5/- DR seems pretty tame to me by comparison.
#12
emansdrawkcab
Mar 11, 2009 13:27:00 I would say that in taking these feats he is doing himself a disservice. Three feats is a lot, and most build crave even more; using them to acquire DR/5 is an utter waste. Overpowered? No. Self crippling? Yes.
#13
cole_caecus
Mar 11, 2009 13:58:01 I hade a character that had DR 5- at first level. Or Maybe it was DR 5Adamantine... i dont remember.

It was a Warforged Fighter, with 2 flaws, for a total of 4 feats. First feat was The one that gave warforged DR 3. 2 other feats where the ones that increased the DR by 1 each. Then i took Power attack. All level 1 character.
#14
jameswilliamogle
Mar 11, 2009 15:28:07
I would say that in taking these feats he is doing himself a disservice. Three feats is a lot, and most build crave even more; using them to acquire DR/5 is an utter waste. Overpowered? No. Self crippling? Yes.

Now, I don't think its self crippling, per se... It doesn't get a lot of respect, but DR is pretty good even into the mid-teens.

For example, consider a pouncing build fighting a werewolf at DR 10 / silver without a silvered weapon... Sure, the damage output is right around the 80s in the mid teens, but the werewolf will be ignoring 30-40 of that, per round. The opposite, what the OP is proposing, will knock off a cool 10-30% of most monster's damage up into the teens.

I still don't think its worth 3 feats, but its hardly crippling.
#15
hogarth
Mar 11, 2009 15:42:49 I agree with everyone so far: at level 6, it's not broken. And as time goes on, it'll get less and less impressive.
#16
innabinder
Mar 11, 2009 18:10:15 :pile: DR 5/- for 3 feats is doing both the party healer and you, the DM, a favor, really. Even if he took Roll With It from here on out, he'd be cutting his effectiveness in order to be slightly sturdier, not anything near too powerful.
#17
Endarire
Mar 11, 2009 18:13:40 DR5/- for 1 feat is significant at ECL6, meh for 2 feats, and quite expensive for 3, especially if you disallow retraining.
#18
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Mar 12, 2009 5:40:08
The official Roll With It feat [SS], taken 3 times, results in a better DR 6/--. It requires Toughness, though.

+1 and it stacks with anything

High DR is pretty useless to an optimized player, even when combined with High SR - you're still nowhere near invulnerable

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 symphonic_tempest Mar 11, 2009 10:19:16	I have a lvl 6 player who's taken the following feats, each of which is a pre-req for the next: Least Aberrant Dragonmark, Mark of Madness, Mark of Xoriat (both found here). It's an Eberron campaign. The last feat gives him DR 5/byeshk, which is a metal I'm sure no one will ever use to make a weapon with in this campaign. So, essentially DR 5/-- for the cost of three feats. (He's a melee type, TWF with high Dex, ranger 2/fighter 2/Child of Khyber 2.) Too powerful at level 6?
#2 pithica Mar 11, 2009 10:29:02	It's pretty gross, but I wouldn't say it's too powerful at 6th level. At that level, he's fast approaching the realm where most casters really start to come into their own with damage alternatives or energy attacks and most mobs start dealing secondary damage of one form or another. If he had it at first level, I'd say it's close to broken, as most things at that level just hit you and that's all they do. At 6th, though, it's probably about a 50% reduction, in physical, which is awesome, but not crazy broken. By 10 it won't even work most of the time and by 15, 5 points off of a single physical attack that it does work on may only be a 10% reduction in damage.
#3 phaedrusxy Mar 11, 2009 10:54:17	No... I wouldn't even take 3 feats for that. Also, aren't there some likely RP repercussions for having an Aberrant Mark of Xoriat? :D
#4 reis Mar 11, 2009 11:00:05	no in fact its very sub-optimal, also byeshk is not that rare in Eberron among certain groups.
#5 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2009 11:06:49	DR 5/- is powerful, but not overpowering. Monsters usually don't have a single powerful attack (there are exceptions: TRex and Iron Golem, for just 2 examples), and so against most opponents you can multiply that DR by 2 to 3 for the actual effectiveness. You'll really help out the party healer by being a fully melee character and taking these feats. Around these parts, people will say offense is always the better thing to focus on than defense, though, and in a fully optimized party this is true advice. Would I spend 3 feats to get it? Heck, no. Those same feats could be Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shocktrooper. The Headless Charge maneuver does combine very well with DR, though, so there is that mitigating factor. Would I take a LA to get DR? Probably, but probably just LA +1, and I'm going to be forced into the melee role from it.
#6 hijaxx Mar 11, 2009 11:36:50	at level 1 it would be crazy broken, at level 6, its awesome, but not all that powerful for three feats
#7 carnivore Mar 11, 2009 11:50:47	DR 5/- is powerful, but not overpowering. Monsters usually don't have a single powerful attack (there are exceptions: TRex and Iron Golem, for just 2 examples), and so against most opponents you can multiply that DR by 2 to 3 for the actual effectiveness. You'll really help out the party healer by being a fully melee character and taking these feats. Around these parts, people will say offense is always the better thing to focus on than defense, though, and in a fully optimized party this is true advice. Would I spend 3 feats to get it? Heck, no. Those same feats could be Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shocktrooper. The Headless Charge maneuver does combine very well with DR, though, so there is that mitigating factor. Would I take a LA to get DR? Probably, but probably just LA +1, and I'm going to be forced into the melee role from it. +1 DR 5/byeshk .... would just cover the basic Str bonus for most characters.... heres something far better: Pixie 4/ Ranger 2 .... with these 3 feats: Fey Heritage[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment. Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus on Will saving throws against enchantment effects. Fey Skin[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment, Fey Heritage. Benefit: You gain damage reduction (overcome by cold iron) equal to 1 + the number of feats you have that list Fey Heritage as a prerequisite (including such feats that you take after gaining this one). For example, if you have Fey Skin and Fey Presence, you would have damage reduction 3/cold iron. This value stacks with any similar damage reduction you might have from your type, subtype, race, or class, but not from other sources, such as spells or magic items. Fey Presence[Heritage](Complete Mage)Prerequisite: Nonlawful alignment, Fey Heritage, character level 6th. Benefit: You gain the following spell-like abilities, each usable once per day: charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self. Your caster level equals your character level. then you would have DR 13/ Cold iron + charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self useable 1/day :D
#8 symphonic_tempest Mar 11, 2009 11:58:32	Okay, sounds fair. Though the campaign isn't that powerful right now, I'll have to go through my encounters and rebalance them slightly. My main worry was that he'd be significantly more powerful than the other characters, but I don't think that'll be a huge problem.
#9 carnivore Mar 11, 2009 12:05:38	as jameswilliamogle said... there are better uses 3 feats could be spent on.... Feats can do more than just give a little DR.... they can make a Character Stealthy, give Fast healing, etc.... he might be resistant to most of the lower-level Damage by some creatures... but he wont be Invincible(he might think he is... but he will be very wrong) :D
#10 tytalus Mar 11, 2009 12:23:16	The official Roll With It feat [SS], taken 3 times, results in a better DR 6/--. It requires Toughness, though.
#11 pithica Mar 11, 2009 12:38:22	For more perspective...http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589587 That's broken. 5/- DR seems pretty tame to me by comparison.
#12 emansdrawkcab Mar 11, 2009 13:27:00	I would say that in taking these feats he is doing himself a disservice. Three feats is a lot, and most build crave even more; using them to acquire DR/5 is an utter waste. Overpowered? No. Self crippling? Yes.
#13 cole_caecus Mar 11, 2009 13:58:01	I hade a character that had DR 5- at first level. Or Maybe it was DR 5Adamantine... i dont remember. It was a Warforged Fighter, with 2 flaws, for a total of 4 feats. First feat was The one that gave warforged DR 3. 2 other feats where the ones that increased the DR by 1 each. Then i took Power attack. All level 1 character.
#14 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2009 15:28:07	I would say that in taking these feats he is doing himself a disservice. Three feats is a lot, and most build crave even more; using them to acquire DR/5 is an utter waste. Overpowered? No. Self crippling? Yes. Now, I don't think its self crippling, per se... It doesn't get a lot of respect, but DR is pretty good even into the mid-teens. For example, consider a pouncing build fighting a werewolf at DR 10 / silver without a silvered weapon... Sure, the damage output is right around the 80s in the mid teens, but the werewolf will be ignoring 30-40 of that, per round. The opposite, what the OP is proposing, will knock off a cool 10-30% of most monster's damage up into the teens. I still don't think its worth 3 feats, but its hardly crippling.
#15 hogarth Mar 11, 2009 15:42:49	I agree with everyone so far: at level 6, it's not broken. And as time goes on, it'll get less and less impressive.
#16 innabinder Mar 11, 2009 18:10:15	:pile: DR 5/- for 3 feats is doing both the party healer and you, the DM, a favor, really. Even if he took Roll With It from here on out, he'd be cutting his effectiveness in order to be slightly sturdier, not anything near too powerful.
#17 Endarire Mar 11, 2009 18:13:40	DR5/- for 1 feat is significant at ECL6, meh for 2 feats, and quite expensive for 3, especially if you disallow retraining.
#18 PlzBreakMyCampaign Mar 12, 2009 5:40:08	The official Roll With It feat [SS], taken 3 times, results in a better DR 6/--. It requires Toughness, though. +1 and it stacks with anything High DR is pretty useless to an optimized player, even when combined with High SR - you're still nowhere near invulnerable