Okay, since 5th Edition is reported to play more like the 2nd and 3rd editions of D&D, I started collecting the books for 3.5 Ed. and after learning that Tieflings are playable there as well as in 4th, I wanted to re-create my 4th Ed. Tiefling Mage in 3.5.
What I'm looking to do is have the most number of spells per day available, but it seems like I have to choose between total number of spells known and maximum number of spells per day to cast. If that's the case, then I feel that spells per day would be better since unlike in 4th Ed., I can use the same spell multiple times per day.
My issue is in figuring out how to do this is that I've read through the Player's handbook 1 (I have PHB2, but have only glanced through the Wizard stuff in it so far until I finish book 1), but the book reads like stereo instructions translated from a foreign language compaired to the 4th Ed. books.
How can I maximize the number of spells per day for my character? I want a Wizard who can both do damage with attack spells as well as have access to control spells like Sleep,Charm Person, etc. in addition to using things like Flaming Sphere and Fireball.
I've been reading and re-reading the books, but cannot make clear sense of what has been written in them.
Thanks in advance. 
Welcome!
Be advised that the 3e gameplay is very different from 4e - both on the character building and combat expectation fronts. For instance, tieflings by default have a +1 level adjustment, which means that your (say) level 5 wizard is actually level 4, having weaker spells as a result. (This drawback is so powerful that "thou shalt not give up caster levels" was jokingly referred to as not one but two separate "Commandments of Optimization" years ago.) There is a "lesser tiefling" that is identical to the normal tiefling, except its type is Humanoid instead of Outsider (native); the lesser tiefling has a +0 level adjustment like all the PHB races. (EDIT: The reason for a type change being enough to get this thing from "about as powerful as a human" to "much more powerful than a human"? First, outsiders are immune to anything that specifically targets humanoids, like Charm Person. Second, and more important here, inexpensive transformation spells like Alter Self allow you to change into other creatures of your type; for a human, this generally means you can turn into goblinoids or the like, but for native outsiders, it means you can become demons (within reason). With a 2nd level spell slot.)
Also, in general, 3.5 didn't care about damage spells outside of a very narrow range. There's no "bloodied" condition or similar - a monster with 1 HP fights exactly as well as one with 300 HP. It takes phenomenal skill with character building to develop spellcasters based on damage that are able to deal enough of it to actually kill monsters before they could fight back. (For instance, Color Spray or Sleep will put large numbers of weak monsters unconscious at level 1, at which point you can slit their throats at your leisure, while a damage mage's 1st level spells tend to deal 1d4+1 or 1d6 damage and leave them standing instead.)
Finally, be advised that wizards are easily the most complicated class in the player's handbook to both learn to build and learn to play. There's maybe only two others that may be harder, period - the archivist (which is basically a divine wizard) and the artificer (which relies on complete knowledge of every spell list, including the sorcerer/wizard list, as well as item creation stunts). While 3.5 has a greater degree of control over character creation (especially through multiclassing and prestige classing), this also leads to increased complexity - and wizards have even more complexity than most. You did not pick an easy first character.
(PS: You can probably set this aside until you've got the basics of the system down, but the Noob Guide is still worth a bookmark. I can give better, more tailored advice if you ask specific questions, though.)
With those general, broad, points passed along, let's get to the nitty-gritty. EDIT: I didn't mention this, but I'll keep this discussion to the core books, since the size of the 3.5 library can be daunting.
samcifer wrote:
If you are looking for something relatively similar to a 4e wizard consider reserve feats in Complete Mage. They give you a minor spell like ability (similar to a spell) useable unlimited times so long as you have a spell of the approperiate type prepared.
For example, one lets you summon small/medium or large elementals so long as you have a summoning spell prepared.
Easy Tips for a first time wizard.
- Don't use a race with Level Adjustment. (tiefling is out). 2
- Max your Int. Then go for a moderate Con, and lastly an OK Dex. Everything else hardly matters. v
- Don't prepare damage spells. Maybe 1 or 2 tops. Don't listen to that guy in your group who tells you to prep magic missile as the only good level 1 spell, and don't listen when he complains that you don't have fireball prepped. He is wrong.
- Buy magic items that up your int at the expense of all others.
- For low levels don't be afraid to run away. Carry a crossbow and shoot people to conserve spells. Ill repeat, run away from most everything. If you are starting at 1st level, consider elves so you can get a bow which is better than a crossbow.
Remember that the wizard class is actually super forgiving for new players. Its just also super complicated. Forgiving as in, if you pick the wrong spells go buy some scrolls and add them to your book. Now you can get good spells instead. Every town you are in you should probably plan to buy a couple of spells.
Other than +Bow and the cool generalist option, Elf sucks (just for -2 Con mostly). The smart elves are the best if you really want to be an elf. Whisper Gnome, Strongheart Halfling and Human are among the best racial options for a Wizard.
Conjuration and Transmutation are easily the strongest schools, don't give up either and you'll probably want to specialize in one of them. Evocation and Enchantment are weakest, followed by probably Necromancy and Illusion. You'll want to keep Illusion to get access to any lost Evocation spells that MIGHT be worth keeping, but mostly you can spend a feat on Craft Contingent Spell to avoid having to keep it, so if you go Focused Specialist (which gives up a third school), you can give up Illusion and not suffer much.
For metamagic be sure to look at Transdimensional Spell, and Sculpt Spell. Being able to hit all of your intended targets and NOT your allies is damned handy. Also Archmage is cool but only really because of Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping, there's a few other goodies like Spell Like Ability but the first two are STRONG.
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
samcifer wrote:
I like grey elf specifically. You take a con hit which sucks, but get an int bump which is ideal. Plus, if you've got a bow and spells, why do you care that much about con?
Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation, they can be used to get you access to Contingency and Force Cage (two of the very few usable Evocation spells). However, Craft Contingent Spell is largely better than Contingency, except in that it costs a feat and if you want another spell slot of each level per day than a feat and access to Illusion spells might just be worth it. You'll probably miss having spells that cause miss chance at times but otherwise it's not a bad cut.
Also, if you really want to have a ton of spells, there are Prestige classes that let you combine two clasting classes. In general this makes your character weaker but more versatile. Some examples include the Arcane Hierophant, the Mystic Theurge and the Ultimate Magus. A character like that is even harder to play than a regular Wizard, but if done right can be very powerful and easily have over 100 spells per day, before applying some of the mentioned tricks.
I still have an old character of mine online (very not optimized) that uses the Arcane Hierophant http://home.hccnet.nl/g.a.renting/Throvannor.pdf
The character's full spell list is included in the PDF, it should give you an idea of what is possible, there's about 35 pages of spells, with ~25 spells per page. This was my first 3E character.
As a side note: try downloading the PCGen character builder, it's free, and make a Wizard using just the srd3.5.
Just to re-emphasize the serious lack of power that comes with playing any of the dual caster classes (Unless you use debatably legal dirty tricks to get in early)
Just to re-emphasize the serious lack of power that comes with playing any of the dual caster classes (Unless you use debatably legal dirty tricks to get in early)
Krusk wrote:
Well, After looking through the PHB list of illusion spells, so far they don't sound like the kinds of spells I'd want. The Shadow Evocation spells are limited because you can't use them to duplicate high-level evocation spells. Only level 5 or lower, so Delayed Blast fireball, and Meteor Swarm are out, which are two spells I'd love to cast. I'd also drop Necromancy. Not sure of a 3rd school to drop. Wish I could ditch Divination, but I want to keep Transmutation, Evocation and Enchantment. Reluctant to drop Abjuration as I would like access to Dispell Magic. That's the one thing I really hate about the 3rd editions, that you have to handicap yourself just to do more per day, thereby loosing access to some of the best spells.
samcifer wrote:
Specilization prohibs ANY use of spells from prohibied schools when you Specialize, according to the PHB section on Specilization in the Wizard's section. It say "Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and (s)he can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands." I take that to mean that under no condition whatsoever are you ever allowed to use a spell that belongs to a prohibited school, so I take that to mean that rings and staves are also out for this.
I assume that school specilization is what you meant. I've got the magic item compendium coming now, so maybe it can show me items that boost my stats to gain more S per D.
samcifer wrote:
Weeellll... I'm making a damage-oriented spellcaster and Stinking Cloud does zero damage, so it's out for me.
Wish there were better written books for 3.5 so I could actually understand how things work. 4th Ed. is written much more clearly. I'm really hopeful that 5th Ed. will be easier to understand than the 3rd Editions. If it's not, I won't be able to play it. 
... Of course, I've only read through the PHB1 so far, but the 4th Ed. PHB was WAY easier to understand. For all that people like to bash 4th Ed., at least it's possible to understant without having to have PhDs in the sciences.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm being childish, but spellcasting in the 3s seems needlessly complicated and the PHB words things so complexly that I can't make any sense of it. The process is litterally backwards from 4th Ed. and described with few examples. Anyone know of anything other than D&D for Dummies that I can look to so I can learn how spellcasting works other than links already provided here? I'm looking for something that gives examples and explains things in layman's terms. Even though I'm about to turn 41 (this Thursday :P ) and have been a gamer all my life, 3.0 and 3.5 might has well be written in Japanese (caligraphy, no less), as far as I can make sense of them. :P
If you want to deal damage you're going to be heartbroken by 3.5, it's all but a total loss. You can hit things, but you have to jump a lot of hoops to hit things hard enough to matter.
Basically look at it this way, you win a fight when the bad guys can't hurt you anymore. For a Conjuror that's when they're Greased, Webbed, Grappled by tentacle monsters, or whatever other aweful thing you've inflicted on them is done doing what it does. For an Evoker they're not done hitting you until they are at -1 HP (even at 0 they can hit you once more). There are actually even some exceptions to the -1 HP thing, like Boars, anything with Diehard and the Deathless Frenzy feature of Frenzied Berserker.
Still not convinced? Consider something like The Mailman in Tempest's Signature, and take every advantage you can get for efficiency.
Look also at metamagic reducers like the following feats, Arcane Thesis, and Metamagic School Focus. Also classes like Incantatrix and Ultimate MAgus can do a lot with metamagic. The later can pair with Assassin for the Wizsassin build in Tempests sig which can do some fairly impressive damage with spells, via sneak attacking with metamagiced up blasting spells.
You're going to need to focus on ray (or other ranged touch) spells, or work hard to push your save DC's into the stratosphere or again you're yet further nerfed for damage. You also can't afford to have your CL be anything but the highest it can possibly be, or you'll fizzle out against opponents with SR.
I know CL is Caster Level, but DC and SR?
Difficulty Check (in this case, the number opponents need to roll when they attempt saving throws against your spells) and Spell Resistance (if a foe has spell resistance, you need to make caster level checks to affect it with any direct applications of magic).
One of the differences between the editions is in their priorities; 3rd Edition tries to be a fantasy world simulation, while 4th Edition tries to be a game (though the benefit of extra experience also helps its mechanics, since it was made later). 4th Edition is clearer and simpler, while 3rd Edition is richer in detail but more complex.
My favourite example of the difference is comparing the time stop wizard power in 4th Edition with the time stop spell in 3rd Edition. The former is mechanically beautiful in its simplicity, but can't achieve some of the weirdly wonderful effects of the latter because its aim is to act like an elegant chess piece, rather than like an actual distortion of time. Both approaches have their merits, and we can hope that 5th Edition will learn valuable lessons from both.
samcifer wrote:
Not sure if it's a toaboo subject, but do Pathfinder Wizards operate the same as 3.5 and 3.0 D&D Wizards?
I'm at work right now, but I'll look over the site later (probably Thursday or Friday, which I took off for my b-day as Tuesday nights are rather hectic for me. :P ) But yes, a beginner's guide to creating (and possibly building to maximize) Wizards would be very helpful. I asked my partner for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for my b-day, so hopefully I'll get it. (Sometimes he surpirses me with something different... no... not THAT way. lol)
A warlock is also a lot easier to play a blasty mage, which seems to be what you want. A wizard can do it better, but its a lot more complicated and generally a bad option.
A warlock can fire eldritch blasts every round for OK damage, and do some cool stuff like fly and turn invisable at will.
For the guide, what would really help would be a few gameplay senarios written out, say a Wizard in a battle with a few enemies.
P: "Okay, I cast Sleep on the Orcs."
DM Rolls saving throws... "Okay, two of the Orcs fall asleep, but the third shrugs it off." DM moves awake orc up close "Take that!" (the orc swings at the Wizard with his club. "You take 4 HP of damage."
P: "Ouch! Okay, I move directly away from him 15 feet, then shoot Magic Missile at him..."
Etc., etc...
samcifer wrote:
samcifer wrote:
Weaker spellslots can also be used for long running buffs. (A simple example is Mage Armor) Selecting the right buff spells can make a huge difference for any caster.
Secondly, If you do want to play a Wizard, I took Divination specialisation, as you then only get one forbidden school. Divination is more useful than you might think. Wizards are prepared spellcasters, so are much more powerful when they know the challenges that they are going to face. Divination helps you get that knowledge.
The general rule about spells is: there is no general rule, each is it's own small reality and rule set. The more spells you have the more complex the game.
Oh, and if you think that 3E is written in a hard to follow manner, try some of the even older editions. 3E was a breath of fresh air and clarity when it came out.
Okay, so if I were to go with damaging spells, am I correct in assuming that overcoming spell resistance is one (it not the) main factor to doing as much damage as possible?
I believe that the Spell Penetration feats help towards this. What else can I do to help me to do the most damage possible with attack spells?
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Unless I go for a Wizard/(martial class) hybrid so I can set up my foes then hit them myself on my next turn.
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
You need to look up the guide to playing god... or I can just link it. This is why wizards are crazy good.
Also, I do choose Sleep for a standard spell, but it lacks the impact (damage-wise) of other, flashier spells. Does anyone know if 5th Ed. wizards are stiffed on damaging spells like earlier editions, or can they still do decent damage like 4th Ed. wizards?
Aside from action exploits like what The Mailman uses your other option for damage (particularly as a Wizard) is to roll a Conjurer/Incantatrix (maybe with some Archmage to expand your options). You don't NEED Incantatrix but if it's on the table it's insanely good. The trick you're going for is irrisistable damage, and really cheap metamagic to make sure you're laying down a lot of it.
We won't get into anything as dubious as negative cost metamagic. Instead we'll focus on the fact that with some low cost metamagics and the right higher cost ones reduced enough you'll be able to lay waste to opponents in the mid-high game. Sadly we're going to have to face facts and until you've got some metamagic tricks going you won't be a damage dealer (look forward to coming online around level 9 to be honest). One trick that might help you stay alive here is Retraining, if your DM allows it you can go Arcane Thesis on a Lesser Orb at 6 and then retrain that for another Metamagic Feat at 12 (when you'll take Arcane Thesis for one of the higher level Orbs as it takes over as more efficient).
Now, to try and make sense of what I'm saying, here goes.
For starters there's a ton of feats to get to know.
Level 1: you're a Human Conjurer (I like Focused Specialist, so forget Archmage, oh well). You'll want to get Extend Spell (PHB) and Metamagic School Focus (CM) out of the way now. The two feats I name are for the following reason, your really good spells, you're unbelievably strong Conjuration spells at level 1 like Grease, they last one round per level and that sucks. Metamagic School Focus lets you prep Grease 3/day with a 2 round duration, and that's something at least. You also want to take the PHB2 Immediate Metamagic replacement for your Familiar, or get a Hummingbird Familiar (it's from Dragon something or other IIRC) which is effectively Improved Initiative that stacks. Forbidden schools? You're giving up Evocation and Enchantment, they're both pretty weak with a small number of exceptions. Your damage dealing spell is Lesser Orb of Fire or Cold (I'd pick Fire because of some later choices mostly). Your damage spell does 1d8, allows no save or SR but requires a Ranged Touch Attack.
Keep going Wizard and don't forget to max out Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, because you need those things. I personally also like to Max out a few other creature related Knowledge skills (Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religeon, The Planes) to forgive some of the unavoidable metagame of knowing monsters stats, and to get to make the rolls and ask the questions at the start of each encounter.
Level 3: you sadly have to take Iron WIll (PHB) as a feat which is almost as useless as Weapon Focus for you, but get over it *. The ol' damage spell's up to 2d8.
*Or don't, there's a Magical Place known as the Otyug Hole noted in Complete Scoundrel, if your DM allows the use for 1K gp, do that instead of wasting a precious feat.
Level 5: you've got some neat options, for this build your best bet is probably to start getting some damage related metamagic online. So we're going to take Energy Substitution (CArc) (picking cold, to have options with your Fire Orb). Damage spell is up to 3d8 now.
At 6 you're going into Incantatrix (YAY!), you have to give up another school (BOO!). The school you give up can't be Abjuration or Divination, so I'm going to say bye bye to Illusion, it's main real strength was making up for the loss of Evocation in a few small exceptions to not wanting to lose that school, you'll get over it though. Cool **** already? Yep, you've got that! You'll want Energy Admixture (CArc) now (corrisponding with your Sub). Also you get a general feat! You now ha a split based on weather your DM allows Retraining (this mess clears up after 12).
6A) So now we're going to take Arcane Thesis (PHB2) (if you can retrain), . You're up to 4d8 (18 damage) now... this is weaksauce but it's a 1st level spell, so no biggie. If you've got the retrain option you can Metamagic School Focus your Orb into Admixture for 8d8 (36 Damage), this spell will also deal 50% of its subbed damage to immune creatures thanks to Piercing Cold or Searing Spell (Arcane Thesis makes it free), or diuble damage to vulnerable creatures instead of an additional 50%.
6B) GM won't allow retraining? Take Searing Spell (Sand)
Level 7: make sure you've maxed out Spellcraft, because any allied caster just got a wet spot in their pants. You can do really awesome things for THEIR spells now too. Your new damage dealing spell does 7d6 (24.5), and the old one's still good for 5d8 (22.5) which is actually impressively close, the new one tacks on a Fort Save or be Dazed.
7A) The cool trick here is if you did get access to the retrain option mentioned at 6 you can prep your lesser orb as an Admixtured orb without spending your Metamagic School focus as a 3rd and be dealing 10d8 (45 damage).
7B) You can still prep your Lesser Fire Orb as 4th 3/day if need be by using Metamagic School focus, it's something, right?
Level 8: the Incantatrix ability you get at this level is mostly going to help your control spells, not so much your DPS, but that's fine it's still amazing.
Level 9: ANOTHER FEAT! AND ANOTHER!
9 A) Take Searing Spell Now, and use your general feat on Residual Magic(CM) for mad synergy with Metamagic Spell Trigger, you've got a magical Shotgun (A wand of Orb of Fire, lesser).
Melf's Unicorn Arrow from PHB2 looks like a decent spell to go for. No resistance or Saving Throw against it for at least 9 damage, and at higher levels, you can throw more of them each time (up to 5). 9 Damage may not be that great, but no resisting or saving sounds like a good thing for a spell to have. There's also a spell that lets you fire actual arrows without a bow. Can't recall the name, but wonder if it's worth using. I know these may not be 'practical' spells, but they sure sound fun to use.
Unicorn Arrow is best used to carry trigger effects rather than its own damage, but no save, no resist is good too. However, a bit of context: "at least 9 damage" won't be relevant once monsters have more than 9 hit points (unless it weakens them to the point where an ally will finish them off before the enemy acts again - it's all about the actions, once again), and even the best case (1d8+8, x5 or so) is pretty weak (although it can be used to carry other damage to the target - it's a favored spell of the #1 Snoipah build in my signature for that reason). Damage doesn't exist in a vacuum. (In a bit, you'll see me look up standard monster stats and compare damage to them as a percentage, for instance.)
Incidentally, there ARE blasting spells that have this no-save/no-SR effect - the Orb spells in the Spell Compendium. They're all rays, and your classic fire blast becomes Orb of Fire (a no-save, no-SR, 1d6/level ray spell - note that rays have their own interesting interaction with metamagic). Orb of Fire actually does allow a save... but it's not against the damage. If the target fails their save, they're dazed for 1 round (dazed creatures can take no actions; it's also surprisingly difficult to be immune to dazing. The only creature type that Orb of Fire won't daze are undead, but that's not due to undead being immune to daze: it's because Orb of Fire allows a Fortitude save and doesn't say Fortitude (object).). This checks all your boxes: Damage, fire, and action control.
It's quite possible to make an effective fire mage using this spell and a few other workarounds, but it requires a bit of metamagic expertise and a solid understanding of the action economy. Give me a bit and I'll see about getting a writeup done in the style of the builds in my signature.
EDIT: Well, look at that, I did a thing. I'll also be happy to elaborate more on this if you have specific questions, but for now, I'd like you to note just how few actual "fire" spells there are on this guy (seven out of 34, and only two of those are real "kill spells"), while all of the late-game spells involve no-save action-economy manipulation (allowing me to bring enough firepower to bear).
(PS: If you like the "spell to launch stuff at enemy" archetype, the one-stop-shop is and always has been Telekinesis. One of our groups has even used this as a GTFO finisher: The psion creates a crate of arrows, the artificer hastily infuses some of them with the Bane property tuned to whatever we're fighting, and the ardent uses telekinesis to launch a truly prodigious number of killer arrows at whatever we want to shut up and sit down. It was kind of action intensive, but we usually only used it against foes we needed to send a message to.)
samcifer wrote:
I'm all about a Light Crossbow, a Wand or a Reserve Feat for the cleanup bit. You don't contribute a ton of damage probably, but you've made it possible for the cleric to get in there and smite rather than ever having to cast a heal spell (he'll more than likely thank you). It's sort of a case of the Turtle vs the Hare. If you go with a build like either Tempest or I mentioned here you'll probably be able to kill at least one thing per round except against REALLY tough fights (by mid level, anyway). If you play a God-Wizard by the time you're level 3 or so you'll be able to prevent the vast majority of monsters you ever face from getting to mount any sort of offense what so ever, and you will do this on 1 or 2 spells per encounter, leaving you free to either buff up allies, blast with one of the aforementioned attack modes, or ponder a new recipe for Giant flesh.
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
I forgot to mention while I was bending the laws of space and time in order to better optimize, another nice candidate to retrain is Extend Spell, you can do so around level 5 when most of your rounds/level effects are now fine to stand on their own for the length of just about any combat. You'll grab your other metamagics one step earlier that way. There are some holes in the build for sure, mostly in the fact it takes SO long to come online, but once it's online your damage is virtually irresistable.