On my next turn, I use Shadow Jaunt to teleport away. I do teleport away. And then my opponent declares that:
1) Telekinesis doesn't target a square
(OK...)
2) Telekinesis (at least the Combat Maneuver version) targets a creature
(where does it say that?)
3) In this case, Telekinesis has targeted me
(if it targets a creature, obviously, but where does it say that?)
4) Therefore, when I use Shadow Jaunt and end up 50 ft away, I end up 50 ft away but still grappled by Telekinesis.
(....)
I let it go, actually, but I really wonder. Is this correct? Would you accept it? Does it make sense?
Argument against:
The Combat Maneuver of Telekinesis doesn't target a creature. It is simply a force effect (which affects creatures). Therefore, what happened is illegal. After the Shadow Jaunt, I should be 50 ft away free, and he could only initiate another Combat Maneuver against me on his next turn. (By then of course, I would be away from Line of Effect).
Argument for:
The Combat Maneuver of Telekinesis does target a creature, because it lists Saving Throw (none) and Spell Resistance (normal). It also states "and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target".
Therefore, what happened is legal.
Am I missing something?
EDIT - My apologies, this is obviously the wrong forum. Please stand by while I sort this out...
But on the other hand, where does it say that teleportation allows you to escape the grapple?
I'm very confused about this myself, but the more I think of it the more I believe that the target is just the force effect. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance part doesn't prove anything: A hundred spells (say, Protection from Evil...) list saves and SR, and yet the target of the spell is something else - not the one who makes the save.
As for the "target", referred to in the text, here's the complete text:
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
One could very easily argue that the text is referring to the "target" of the disarm (etc) attempt, not the spell. But then again, one could also argue the exact opposite.
If we're talking RAI and common sense, I am fairly certain that it shouldn't work this way.
If we're talking about RAW... I honestly don't know.
One could very easily argue that the text is referring to the "target" of the disarm (etc) attempt, not the spell. But then again, one could also argue the exact opposite.
No, it is very clearly talking about the target of the disarm/etc attempt. I don't see how it could be read any other way. Failed Disarm and Trip attempts usually let the target reactively try to disarm whoever tried to disarm them in the first place. That is clearly exactly what this is talking about.
As to whether teleporting should allow you to escape... I'd say that's not clear. RAW it probably wouldn't, but I think RAI it should.
As to whether teleporting should allow you to escape... I'd say that's not clear. RAW it probably wouldn't
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that. The text says "Resolve these attempts as normal", and the exceptions have to do with how AoO are not allowed (irrelevant), how the caster's opposed check is calculated (irrelevant) and how tripping (or disarming) back if the check fails is not allowed (irrelevant).
Other than that, Grapple rules should apply as normal. Obviously I can't attack or damage the Telekinesis, but I can take other actions and attempt to escape.
If we're talking about using Shadow Jaunt in particular (if I could simply make a reliable Escape Artist check, I can't imagine what the problem would be), we sorted it out by checking the ToB rules about maneuvers. Where it specifies that most (but not all) maneuvers can't be initiated during a grapple, and it's fair to assume that the ones that can be initiated during a grapple are boosts, counters (if somehow applicable) and teleports. There was no argument about that, by the way.
Or is the problem teleportation in general? Say, for conversation's sake, I had Ankles of Translocation, or any item that gives teleportation. Say that a wizard did it. Why can't you teleport out of a grapple?
Incorporeal Subtype
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Emphasis mine.
Since you are a ghost, you are incorporial. Since you are incorporial, you are immune to grapple. Doesn't matter if its a force effect, or a strawberry effect. Immune is immune. You just "flow" out of the grapple. Thus, there was never a problem, and you had no need to Shadow Jaunt out of the hold, because there was no hold.
Since you are a ghost, you are incorporial. Since you are incorporial, you are immune to grapple. Doesn't matter if its a force effect, or a strawberry effect. Immune is immune. You just "flow" out of the grapple. Thus, there was never a problem, and you had no need to Shadow Jaunt out of the hold, because there was no hold.
That crossed my mind, but I was too lazy to look it up to be sure. Still, the argument would be valid for a corporeal creature trying to escape a telekinetic grapple using a teleportation effect.
That crossed my mind, but I was too lazy to look it up to be sure. Still, the argument would be valid for a corporeal creature trying to escape a telekinetic grapple using a teleportation effect.
Combat Maneuver
Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Given that text, I'd say that you actually couldn't teleport out of a TK grapple unless that teleport also broke line of sight or line of effect between you and the grappler.
Normally, teleporting is the primary anti-grapple, with such options available as spells (all Teleport subschool spells are V only, meaning you only need a concentration check), or an item like Anklets of Translocation, Boots of Big Stepping or Teleportation, Cloak of the Montebank, etc, or via a maneuver such as Shadow Jaunt or Blink. Manuvers only require that you can move to perform them, not move freely. Even a pinned character is not considered Helpless, and thus should be able to move enough to initiate a manuever. Teleporting works because it causes you to leave the grapplers square, and thus you aren't in a grapple anymore. Telekenisis doesn't occupy a square, it targets a player. If a person casts Hold Person on you, and you cast a Silent Dimension Door to move yourself, you are still Held. TK is different from Hold though, since it requires concentration to maintain, which implies line of sight and effect. Thus, if you could teleport out of LoE, the caster wouldn't be able to maintain the TK, and it would fall off of you at the start of the TKers next turn.
All irrelevant in the OPs case, since he couldn't be TK grappled in the first place. TK Violent Thrusted, yes, but TK grappled or TK tripped, not possible due to Incorp subtype.
I thought ghosts could become (In)Corporeal at will? Also, if both ghosts are incorporeal(or corporeal), treat as though both were corporeal.
No, you are thinking of their Manifest ability. It allows them to go from completely Ethereal, to partially Ethereal, which gives them the Incorporial feeling.
Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.
Emphasis mine. So ghosts shift between 2 states, fully Ethereal, where they can only be seen via See Invis or True Seeing, and only interacted with via Force or Transdimensional spells, and partially Ethereal, where they take on the traits of the Incorporial subtype I quoted above. They are never fully corporial, and can never interact with material goods short of ghost touch items or through the use of their TK abilities.
Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world.
Ghost Vs Ghost. We have the Incorporeal Subtype because we are a monster entry, seen from the point of view of the (corporeal) adventurer. We are not incorporeal in relation to each other. We can touch each other and grapple each other as normally as a pair of corporeal creatures on the material plane:
A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.
and
An ethereal creature, however, interacts with other ethereal creatures and objects the way material creatures interact with material creatures and objects.
(It's frightfully complicated.)
As for Telekinesis, of course it doesn't target a square. But does it target a creature? Debatable, and I'd say no. If the text said something like "you concentrate on a creature, and it is affected as if it has been grappled or tripped" etc, then yes. That would imply a target creature, even if it didn't say so explicitly. But what it says is "you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip."... so I don't think so.
The descriptive text of Telekinesis, before explaining the three versions, says:
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
We imagine Bigby's Hand, because it's easier to visualize, but there's no mention of anything like that. "You move objects or creatures".
....Yes, I think it was legal, after all. Thoughts?
Ghost Vs Ghost. We have the Incorporeal Subtype because we are a monster entry, seen from the point of view of the (corporeal) adventurer. We are not incorporeal in relation to each other. We can touch each other and grapple each other as normally as a pair of corporeal creatures on the material plane:
No, you are only considered corporial against each other to determine if your attacks have to roll miss chance, or similar. That doesn't change the composition of your body, which is non-material. Its like trying to grapple a humanoid form made out of water. As soon as you get a hold of it, it changes form slightly to slip away. Its impossible to hold completely unless you have a spell like a Resiliant Sphere to act like a bowl to contain the ghost on all sides.
No, you are only considered corporial against each other to determine if your attacks have to roll miss chance, or similar. That doesn't change the composition of your body, which is non-material.
No. Ghosts are corporeal on the Ethereal plane. Read the "Ghost" entry in the Monster Manual if you don't believe me. They just have a special ability to manifest incorporeally on the Material plane.
But as PhaedrusXY said, there isn't a rule that says "teleportation always allows you to escape a grapple", so any answer will be a judgment call.