Ghoul Monster Class - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ghoul Monster Class

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
hyudra
Dec 07, 2008 14:00:52 The Ghoul PC class is featured in Libris Mortis, p35. It's an eight level class, I'd be starting at level 2 or level 4, with the appropriate starting gold. The game would start in a few weeks, and is to be set in a rather shady metropolis.

It's something I've been thinking of playing for a bit, as a person going through and keeping a diary of her gradual change into a full fledged ghoul.

This is what I'm left to work out:
Feat Choices - Only feats are at 1st and 6th level. Another at first, I believe, if I have human as it's pre-ghoul race.
Equipment choices - Simple weapons only (Claws are likely preferable) and no armor proficiency (natural armor, instead).
Stat Distribution - Seems like there's too many bases that need to be covered.
Skill Distribution - Few skill points with 4+int at 1st (x4), 3rd, 6th and 8th. Gotta make them count.
Where to go after 8th - I'm thinking Dread Necromancer for the utility.

Thoughts I've had: Poison. The ghoul is immune due to undead traits, so no risk of poisoning itself. Poisons are expensive.

I've playtested various iterations of ghoul monster PCs, and it doesn't play that badly as far as being able to meet challenges. That said, I'm having great difficulty tweaking it, so input would be much appreciated.
#2
carnivore
Dec 07, 2008 16:33:52 why not just go Spellstiched(CArc p162) Necropolitan(LM p114) (+1 LA)... and seven levels of some casting class.... should give more bang than Ghoul

:D
#3
surreal
Dec 07, 2008 17:54:15 Would you consider the Gravetouched Ghoul template instead? The flavour is almost exactly the same, but the mechanics/stats are better since you don't have to suck up the racial hd.

Do you have any concept for what kind of character you want to be? Being a ghoul is one thing, but do you want to focus on class abilities or on your ghoul abilities?

Don't do a caster, since you've already lost too many levels (unless you're trying to wrangle into Ur-priest somehow). A stealth type is probably your best bet. I would consider something like a swordsage, focusing on Setting Sun for the throws and the contagious paralysis line of feats. Touch somebody, toss them into their buddies, spread the love :D (gah, I make it sound like an std...)
#4
runestar
Dec 07, 2008 18:10:21 Compare the ghoul racial class (ECL5) with the gravetouched ghoul template (LA+2) and you see a lot of imbalance.

The ghoul race clearly favours npcs, for while both increase cr by 1, the ghoul has the advantage of 2 extra undead HD. So there appears to be little reason to ever want to use the template option.

Conversely, the template clearly favours PCs, because you get all the benefits at a lower LA (and without the crappy racial HD to boot). I would probably lower the ghoul's LA to +1 (for a total ECL of 3) to balance it out.

That said, are you talking about the ghast PC class instead (which is ECL8)? I think its LA can be lowered to +2 as well.

My recommendation is to start with a LA+0 race, choose a class, then tack on the gravetouched ghoul template. At ECL4, continue with your original class. As to what classes synergize well, I leave it to the other more informed board members to comment. Though rogue might be useful, since you have multiple natural weapons to sneak attack with.
#5
vglcat
Dec 07, 2008 19:48:53 well i hate to break it to peoples but ghoul is worse than ghoul gravetouched. even for flavour reasons, i'd suggest grave touched
#6
Wyvernhand
Dec 07, 2008 21:51:44 Ghoul's (Gravetouched!!!!@!#!@$!#@$) have abilities that are Cha based. Thus, having Cha based classes seems beneficial. A really good investment right away would be (rebalanced) Hexblade, using the PHBII ACF called Dark Companion. This will lower your foes saves making them more likely to fail your save vs paralysis. Move the Companion, Hex the foe (likely to fail save due to Cha focus and presence of Dark Companion), and charge to attack. Hexblade gives you +cha on saves vs spells as well, which is handy.

After 4 levels of Hexblade, how about 2 levels of Marshall? This allows you to add your Cha to dex checks, which is great for going first. You also get a +1 to hit from your major aura that counters the fact that you don't get any BAB at level 1 Marshall.

After that, pop a level in Fighter, just cause you need the BAB and the bonus feat is always golden.

Now you have a 6 BAB, and with the right feats, you qualify for Blackguard. Blackguard gives you a couple of interesting features right away. At BG2, you get +cha to saves again, all saves this time. Different name, so it stacks. Now you have +2x cha to saves vs most effects, so if its a spell, you are probably good to go. BG3 gives you 2 awesome abilities. Command Undead, which, while weak as is, is a form of Rebuking, which qualifies you for Divine Feats, notably Divine Might, which gives +cha to damage. You also get Aura of Dispair, a no-save aura which gives -2 saves. This makes it even harder for foes to resist your paralyzing touch. At BG4, you get 1d6 SA, which while kind of meh, allows you to qualify for the feat Craven. Since you are immune to fear (UD Subtype), the drawback is negated, and you add your HD to damage when you SA. This is awesome. Thats about all the BG you really need to take. You can keep taking more, or head into something like Dread Commando (full bab ninja ghoul!) or maybe on of the LM PrCs. Regardless, you are now pretty fearsome.

Build stub
Human (formerly)
GTG1
GTG2
Hexblade1 Ability Focus (paralysis), Dreadful Wrath
Hexblade2
Hexblade3 Power Attack
Hexblade4
Fighter1 Cleave
Marshal1 Improved Sunder
Marshal2
Blackguard1
Blackguard2 Combat Brute
Blackguard3
Blackguard4
Blackguard5 Divine Might
Blackguard6
Blackguard7
Blackguard8 Craven
Blackguard9
Blackguard10
???????

Yea, pretty freakin awesome. Your chance to paralyse is super high, so you should be able to take out just about any foe except for elves, constructs, other undead, plants, and elementals. Those darned elves...
#7
hyudra
Dec 07, 2008 22:27:34 Well, seems the gravetouched ghoul recommendation is unanimous. A little disappointed, as I was hoping to use the slow progression of abilities as a character feature, the gradual transformation, etc.

That said, yeah, I looked at the template, and it's probably far better in the long run for a straight 'ghoul' PC.

Wyvernhand, that's some fantastic feedback. I'll definitely consider the various suggestions therein. Also still considering Dread Necromancer, as Charnel Touch theoretically allows the character to heal itself after combats.

Recommendations on stats? Cha > Strength > Dex > Wis > Int?
#8
Wyvernhand
Dec 07, 2008 22:32:56 If you are solo, consider a dip in DN, otherwise don't. Its too unfocused for a melee centric character.

And yes, your stats look best that way.

Oh, crap. For my build, swap Combat Brute for Rapid Strike, and take Improved Rapid Strike at some point in there. This will give you full iteratives with BOTH clawes, which is a good thing. Hope this helps.
#9
runestar
Dec 07, 2008 22:35:51
A little disappointed, as I was hoping to use the slow progression of abilities as a character feature, the gradual transformation, etc.

Problem is that it is too slow. You get too few abilities each level compared to the benefits of a class lv and you will be too weak compared to other PCs of your ECL.

You can try breaking down gravetouched ghoul into a 2 lv progression. What level does your campaign start at?

Note that rapidstrike can't be taken by undead.
#10
Wyvernhand
Dec 07, 2008 23:22:18
Note that rapidstrike can't be taken by undead.

Why not? I thought I only saw that you needed "paired" attacks, such as a dragons Wing Buffets, or a Ghouls claws.
#11
acereraklives
Dec 08, 2008 2:10:10 First off, I love the character idea. Anyhow, I think it would be awesome to focus on the ghoul's paralysis touch, since that's their big flavor. Also, the RP parts of becoming a ghoul can be maintained - just remember that every feat you take to improve a ghoulish attributes can be thought of as becoming even more undead.

I'd consider swordsage (unarmed variant, if possible) from the Book of Nine Swords as a solid choice, going into the lurking terror from LM and bloodclaw master from Bo9S. The idea would be a dex-based melee fighter who uses poisons, hiding, and paralysis to even the playing field against opponents. As an added bonus, the tiger claw and shadow hand schools go well with a ghoulish flavor, adding feral rage and darkness-loving abilities.

Books used:
Tome of Battle (Swordsage, Bloodclaw Master)
Drow of the Underdark (Master of Poisons, Venomous Strike)
Libris Mortis: gravetouched ghoul, improved paralysis, contagious paralysis, Lurking Terror.
Champions of Ruin: Craven

Build stub
Human (formerly)
GTG1
GTG2
Swordsage1 Ability Focus (paralysis), Improved Paralysis (bonus racial), Multiattack (bonus racial), Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw weapons) (bonus class)
Swordsage2
SS3 Contagious Paralysis
SS4
SS5 (take Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack)
Lurking Terror1 (Master of Poisons, use poison as a swift action)
Lurking Terror2
Lurking Terror3
Bloodclaw Master1 (Craven)
Bloodclaw Master2
Bloodclaw Master3
Swordsage 6 (Venomous Strike, trade 1d6 SA for +2 poison DC)
Swordsage 7+

Benefits: gets the ghoul's wisdom bonus to AC, has a Paralysis DC of Cha +9 (+2 Ability Focus, +4 Improved Paralysis, +3 Lurking Terror), and paralyzes anyone who touches a victim as well, uses poisons very effectively, and has hide in plain sight. Gets a total of IL 18 and BAB +14, so trading some swordsage levels could get a better BAB.

Possible tactics:
ECL 3-5: you have very low HP for this level, so basically it's a hide and grab game. Your AC should be quite solid for somebody in light armor though, and against anything vulnerable to paralysis you'll be doing quite well, since the DC should be nearly unbeatable.
ECL 6+: Basically you're like an assassin at this point - hide, choose the weakest foe, come out with a poisoned sneak attack and try to take the opponent out quickly.
ECL 15: Ballista Throw (Setting Sun) will let you throw an opponent 60" in a straight line, which would be funny in conjunction with Contagious Paralysis, enabling you to try and paralyze every opponent he touches.

Choice maneuvers to start off with: Child of Shadow stance, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt. Hide, move silently, and jump are the main skills that need to be maximized, followed by tumble, etc.
#12
runestar
Dec 08, 2008 3:03:32
Why not? I thought I only saw that you needed "paired" attacks, such as a dragons Wing Buffets, or a Ghouls claws.

It also has a racial requirement. Only dragons, magical beasts, elementals, aberrations and plants may take it.

As for the craven feat, note that its requirement states "cannot be immune to fear", so you cannot take it if you are immune to fear (and would lose the use of said feat if you ever become immune to fear later on).
#13
atomickitkat
Dec 08, 2008 3:14:27 I coulda sworn Gravetouched Ghoul was RAI(yeah, yeah) to stack on Vanilla Ghoul, but guess I was wrong. This board is a little too lich-loved with it though, IMO.

Anyways, Craven specifically states you're disqualified from taking it if you're immune to Fear. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hyudra Dec 07, 2008 14:00:52	The Ghoul PC class is featured in Libris Mortis, p35. It's an eight level class, I'd be starting at level 2 or level 4, with the appropriate starting gold. The game would start in a few weeks, and is to be set in a rather shady metropolis. It's something I've been thinking of playing for a bit, as a person going through and keeping a diary of her gradual change into a full fledged ghoul. This is what I'm left to work out: Feat Choices - Only feats are at 1st and 6th level. Another at first, I believe, if I have human as it's pre-ghoul race. Equipment choices - Simple weapons only (Claws are likely preferable) and no armor proficiency (natural armor, instead). Stat Distribution - Seems like there's too many bases that need to be covered. Skill Distribution - Few skill points with 4+int at 1st (x4), 3rd, 6th and 8th. Gotta make them count. Where to go after 8th - I'm thinking Dread Necromancer for the utility. Thoughts I've had: Poison. The ghoul is immune due to undead traits, so no risk of poisoning itself. Poisons are expensive. I've playtested various iterations of ghoul monster PCs, and it doesn't play that badly as far as being able to meet challenges. That said, I'm having great difficulty tweaking it, so input would be much appreciated.
#2 carnivore Dec 07, 2008 16:33:52	why not just go Spellstiched(CArc p162) Necropolitan(LM p114) (+1 LA)... and seven levels of some casting class.... should give more bang than Ghoul :D
#3 surreal Dec 07, 2008 17:54:15	Would you consider the Gravetouched Ghoul template instead? The flavour is almost exactly the same, but the mechanics/stats are better since you don't have to suck up the racial hd. Do you have any concept for what kind of character you want to be? Being a ghoul is one thing, but do you want to focus on class abilities or on your ghoul abilities? Don't do a caster, since you've already lost too many levels (unless you're trying to wrangle into Ur-priest somehow). A stealth type is probably your best bet. I would consider something like a swordsage, focusing on Setting Sun for the throws and the contagious paralysis line of feats. Touch somebody, toss them into their buddies, spread the love :D (gah, I make it sound like an std...)
#4 runestar Dec 07, 2008 18:10:21	Compare the ghoul racial class (ECL5) with the gravetouched ghoul template (LA+2) and you see a lot of imbalance. The ghoul race clearly favours npcs, for while both increase cr by 1, the ghoul has the advantage of 2 extra undead HD. So there appears to be little reason to ever want to use the template option. Conversely, the template clearly favours PCs, because you get all the benefits at a lower LA (and without the crappy racial HD to boot). I would probably lower the ghoul's LA to +1 (for a total ECL of 3) to balance it out. That said, are you talking about the ghast PC class instead (which is ECL8)? I think its LA can be lowered to +2 as well. My recommendation is to start with a LA+0 race, choose a class, then tack on the gravetouched ghoul template. At ECL4, continue with your original class. As to what classes synergize well, I leave it to the other more informed board members to comment. Though rogue might be useful, since you have multiple natural weapons to sneak attack with.
#5 vglcat Dec 07, 2008 19:48:53	well i hate to break it to peoples but ghoul is worse than ghoul gravetouched. even for flavour reasons, i'd suggest grave touched
#6 Wyvernhand Dec 07, 2008 21:51:44	Ghoul's (Gravetouched!!!!@!#!@$!#@$) have abilities that are Cha based. Thus, having Cha based classes seems beneficial. A really good investment right away would be (rebalanced) Hexblade, using the PHBII ACF called Dark Companion. This will lower your foes saves making them more likely to fail your save vs paralysis. Move the Companion, Hex the foe (likely to fail save due to Cha focus and presence of Dark Companion), and charge to attack. Hexblade gives you +cha on saves vs spells as well, which is handy. After 4 levels of Hexblade, how about 2 levels of Marshall? This allows you to add your Cha to dex checks, which is great for going first. You also get a +1 to hit from your major aura that counters the fact that you don't get any BAB at level 1 Marshall. After that, pop a level in Fighter, just cause you need the BAB and the bonus feat is always golden. Now you have a 6 BAB, and with the right feats, you qualify for Blackguard. Blackguard gives you a couple of interesting features right away. At BG2, you get +cha to saves again, all saves this time. Different name, so it stacks. Now you have +2x cha to saves vs most effects, so if its a spell, you are probably good to go. BG3 gives you 2 awesome abilities. Command Undead, which, while weak as is, is a form of Rebuking, which qualifies you for Divine Feats, notably Divine Might, which gives +cha to damage. You also get Aura of Dispair, a no-save aura which gives -2 saves. This makes it even harder for foes to resist your paralyzing touch. At BG4, you get 1d6 SA, which while kind of meh, allows you to qualify for the feat Craven. Since you are immune to fear (UD Subtype), the drawback is negated, and you add your HD to damage when you SA. This is awesome. Thats about all the BG you really need to take. You can keep taking more, or head into something like Dread Commando (full bab ninja ghoul!) or maybe on of the LM PrCs. Regardless, you are now pretty fearsome. Build stub Human (formerly) GTG1 GTG2 Hexblade1 Ability Focus (paralysis), Dreadful Wrath Hexblade2 Hexblade3 Power Attack Hexblade4 Fighter1 Cleave Marshal1 Improved Sunder Marshal2 Blackguard1 Blackguard2 Combat Brute Blackguard3 Blackguard4 Blackguard5 Divine Might Blackguard6 Blackguard7 Blackguard8 Craven Blackguard9 Blackguard10 ??????? Yea, pretty freakin awesome. Your chance to paralyse is super high, so you should be able to take out just about any foe except for elves, constructs, other undead, plants, and elementals. Those darned elves...
#7 hyudra Dec 07, 2008 22:27:34	Well, seems the gravetouched ghoul recommendation is unanimous. A little disappointed, as I was hoping to use the slow progression of abilities as a character feature, the gradual transformation, etc. That said, yeah, I looked at the template, and it's probably far better in the long run for a straight 'ghoul' PC. Wyvernhand, that's some fantastic feedback. I'll definitely consider the various suggestions therein. Also still considering Dread Necromancer, as Charnel Touch theoretically allows the character to heal itself after combats. Recommendations on stats? Cha > Strength > Dex > Wis > Int?
#8 Wyvernhand Dec 07, 2008 22:32:56	If you are solo, consider a dip in DN, otherwise don't. Its too unfocused for a melee centric character. And yes, your stats look best that way. Oh, crap. For my build, swap Combat Brute for Rapid Strike, and take Improved Rapid Strike at some point in there. This will give you full iteratives with BOTH clawes, which is a good thing. Hope this helps.
#9 runestar Dec 07, 2008 22:35:51	A little disappointed, as I was hoping to use the slow progression of abilities as a character feature, the gradual transformation, etc. Problem is that it is too slow. You get too few abilities each level compared to the benefits of a class lv and you will be too weak compared to other PCs of your ECL. You can try breaking down gravetouched ghoul into a 2 lv progression. What level does your campaign start at? Note that rapidstrike can't be taken by undead.
#10 Wyvernhand Dec 07, 2008 23:22:18	Note that rapidstrike can't be taken by undead. Why not? I thought I only saw that you needed "paired" attacks, such as a dragons Wing Buffets, or a Ghouls claws.
#11 acereraklives Dec 08, 2008 2:10:10	First off, I love the character idea. Anyhow, I think it would be awesome to focus on the ghoul's paralysis touch, since that's their big flavor. Also, the RP parts of becoming a ghoul can be maintained - just remember that every feat you take to improve a ghoulish attributes can be thought of as becoming even more undead. I'd consider swordsage (unarmed variant, if possible) from the Book of Nine Swords as a solid choice, going into the lurking terror from LM and bloodclaw master from Bo9S. The idea would be a dex-based melee fighter who uses poisons, hiding, and paralysis to even the playing field against opponents. As an added bonus, the tiger claw and shadow hand schools go well with a ghoulish flavor, adding feral rage and darkness-loving abilities. Books used: Tome of Battle (Swordsage, Bloodclaw Master) Drow of the Underdark (Master of Poisons, Venomous Strike) Libris Mortis: gravetouched ghoul, improved paralysis, contagious paralysis, Lurking Terror. Champions of Ruin: Craven Build stub Human (formerly) GTG1 GTG2 Swordsage1 Ability Focus (paralysis), Improved Paralysis (bonus racial), Multiattack (bonus racial), Weapon Focus (Tiger Claw weapons) (bonus class) Swordsage2 SS3 Contagious Paralysis SS4 SS5 (take Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack) Lurking Terror1 (Master of Poisons, use poison as a swift action) Lurking Terror2 Lurking Terror3 Bloodclaw Master1 (Craven) Bloodclaw Master2 Bloodclaw Master3 Swordsage 6 (Venomous Strike, trade 1d6 SA for +2 poison DC) Swordsage 7+ Benefits: gets the ghoul's wisdom bonus to AC, has a Paralysis DC of Cha +9 (+2 Ability Focus, +4 Improved Paralysis, +3 Lurking Terror), and paralyzes anyone who touches a victim as well, uses poisons very effectively, and has hide in plain sight. Gets a total of IL 18 and BAB +14, so trading some swordsage levels could get a better BAB. Possible tactics: ECL 3-5: you have very low HP for this level, so basically it's a hide and grab game. Your AC should be quite solid for somebody in light armor though, and against anything vulnerable to paralysis you'll be doing quite well, since the DC should be nearly unbeatable. ECL 6+: Basically you're like an assassin at this point - hide, choose the weakest foe, come out with a poisoned sneak attack and try to take the opponent out quickly. ECL 15: Ballista Throw (Setting Sun) will let you throw an opponent 60" in a straight line, which would be funny in conjunction with Contagious Paralysis, enabling you to try and paralyze every opponent he touches. Choice maneuvers to start off with: Child of Shadow stance, Sudden Leap, Wolf Fang Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt. Hide, move silently, and jump are the main skills that need to be maximized, followed by tumble, etc.
#12 runestar Dec 08, 2008 3:03:32	Why not? I thought I only saw that you needed "paired" attacks, such as a dragons Wing Buffets, or a Ghouls claws. It also has a racial requirement. Only dragons, magical beasts, elementals, aberrations and plants may take it. As for the craven feat, note that its requirement states "cannot be immune to fear", so you cannot take it if you are immune to fear (and would lose the use of said feat if you ever become immune to fear later on).
#13 atomickitkat Dec 08, 2008 3:14:27	I coulda sworn Gravetouched Ghoul was RAI(yeah, yeah) to stack on Vanilla Ghoul, but guess I was wrong. This board is a little too lich-loved with it though, IMO. Anyways, Craven specifically states you're disqualified from taking it if you're immune to Fear. :P