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Gish Advice

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 11:47:40 Looking for suggestions for a level 14 Gish. He will be created at 14 and will never level, so no need to worry about a 20 build. The character will be used in a single endurance session in which DMs will throw optimized, CR appropriate encounters at the party in rapid succession until they die. Probably no chance to rest or rememorize spells ever. Random time elapse of d4 rounds, hours or days between encounters, so buffs will generally drop. Best performing characters will go to PVP in finals. There will be a party of 6, but won’t know other classes until game day.

Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Players Guide to Faerun, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Players Hand Book II, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Libris Mortis, Races of the Dragon, Monster Manual III.

Current thought (advice welcome):

Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 20

Duskblade 3 (Arcane Strike, Good BAB, free Combat casting)
(Stalwart) Sorcerer 4
Spellsword 1
Abjurant Champion 5
Sorcerer 1?
Overall BAB +11, Sorc Casting 11

Feats: H Spell Penetration?
1.Power attack
D2: Combat Casting
3 ?
SSorc: Weap Focus: Glaive
6 Short Haft
9 Blade of Force
12 Improved Crit: Glaive?

Duskblade spells include: True Strike, Swift Exp Retreat, Stand

S1: Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Protection From Evil, 2 more
S2 Wraithstrike, Resist Energy, False Life, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity
S3 Vampiric Touch, Dispel Magic, Ray of Dizziness, Fly
S4 Rebuke, Orb of Force, 1 more
S5 Night’s Caress

I have some other non gish ideas I’m working on, but please keep this thread Gishy.
#2
ninjarabbit
May 10, 2008 12:03:19 I would say either a battlesorcerer9/abjurantchampion5 or a beguiler1/duskblade4/ur-priest9 for channeled harms among many other things.
#3
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 12:07:39 No Unearthed Arcana. Battlesorcerer is out. Allowed books are based on what DM owns.
#4
gaffer
May 10, 2008 12:36:04 How cheesy do you wanna get? You've got all the necessary tools for one of my favorites.

Fighter 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 1/Incantatrix 4/Abjurant Champ 3
Free Persistent spells via Incantatrix (pump that spellcraft check) for stuff like Wraithstrike, Polymorph, etc. Grab Power attack and go to town.
#5
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 12:55:36 I'll go as cheesy as I can. Being banned for excessive brokenness is regarded as a compliment.

The incantrix build is a great build for a traditional dungeon where you can buff in safety and then go from room to room in full battle splendor. Heres the problem. We get 0 prep time for most rooms (rooms determined at random), and there is random time lapse after each room. So, I pop in in a random location and hope that I'm not already in reach of some huge monster. Then I need to do a full round action to cast a persistent spell with MM effect without being clobbered. Then the persistent spell has a 1 in 4 chance of dropping each room (random time lapse, rounds, minutes, hours or days). Under these conditions I think a quickened or channeled spell build works better.

I like the Ur-priest idea tho. I'm exploring it.
#6
gaffer
May 10, 2008 14:03:00 Oh, I misunderstood your original conditions. I figured you could pop up a few Persistent buffs as you went and have them stick around all day. I guess if you were really serious you could drop a Solid Fog and then buff, but it doesn't do much good if they randomly fall off.

You know, you might consider the Cleric route with Ordained Champion and Swift war domain spells. Either that, or perhaps a Swiftblade build might work. They come to fruition earlier than 14, don't they?

Edit: You know, I'm wondering if Gish is the way to go here. They usually require a bit of warmup to hit their pinnacle. You might consider PaOing yourself into something terrible so that never expires, then making liberal use of Swift/Quickened buffs and Arcane strike.
#7
carnivore
May 10, 2008 16:02:06 try this:

Pixie
Warlock 8/ Pious Templar 2

feats:

Dodge(pixie bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(pixie Bonus)
True Believer(corellon)
Weapon Focus(long Sword)
Flyby Attack
Combat Reflexes

equipment:

8150gp Millenial Chainmail(Relic)(MIC) +1 Mithral Chain, Light Armor,+8 max Dex, Armor chk -2, ASF 15% ....... Incredible armor ..... Gives Fast Healing 3 continuously

thus you have :
Great attributes:–4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.
Greater invisibility at will
Flight 60(good)
Fast Healing 3
DR 10/Cold iron
SR 25
Mettle

Unlimited attacks... 4d6 EB + Invocations

invocatons:
least:
Baleful Utterance... Unlimited Shatters
Eldritch Glaive... reach while flying
See the Unseen

lesser:
Flee the Scene
Sudden Swarm

I personally like the pixie warlock. Sure, you pay 4 LA, but you more than make up with it with versatility and utter ridiculousness.

Pixie gives you:
- +8 dex and +6 cha (amongst other stat adjustments)
- Small size. Harder to hit and easier to hit others
- 60 foot (good) fly speed
- Dodge as a bonus feat
- +1 natural armor
- DR 10/cold iron, Spell resistance 15+levels and persistent (suppressible) greater invisibility.
- Some nice SLAs.

This race was made for warlocks. You can fly around, invisible and hurl little eldritch blasts at your enemies. Best thing is, you are virtually guaranteed damage and you are virtually untouchable.

- Because Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack, your target gets no armor or natural armor bonuses to their AC.
- Unless your target can see invis, they further get no dex or dodge bonus to AC and you get a +2 on your attacks against sighted targets.

So let's see...they don't get dodge, dex, armor or natural armor bonuses...they still get um...size...and um...deflection. With +8 to your dex, some BAB, +2 for being invis and +1 for being small, you can virtually guarantee a hit EVERY TIME.

So what about when they strike back? Oh well, first they have to find you (invisible). Then they have to reach you somehow (flying). Then they have to hit you (small size and high dex). Then they have to overcome either your spell resistance or your damage reduction. Not very likely they'll be hitting you much.

You can see where all this is going. Sure, a fighter could dish out more damage in one round. But your steady once per round 7d6 and nigh untouchability will certainly make you a force to be reckoned with. With the right feat selection and items, I truly believe this character would be just about invincible unless the DM specifically is trying to take you down. You can outlast just about anything in the game.

:D
#8
altpersona
May 10, 2008 17:30:18 hmm, pixie warlock soul eater?

i would not go with a regular gish. unless you have wands of unlimited X, or the like.

might as well just have a high UMD and go ToB or warlock, or rage or one of the every round of every day types..

the pixie warlock/X sounds good to me, but i would be tempted to use some ToB..

as far as Unearthed arcana, how about SRD stuff?
#9
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 17:33:31
Edit: You know, I'm wondering if Gish is the way to go here. They usually require a bit of warmup to hit their pinnacle. You might consider PaOing yourself into something terrible so that never expires, then making liberal use of Swift/Quickened buffs and Arcane strike.

Yeah, I have a few months to prepare, so when I'm bored I try different character builds. I'm not sure if gish is the way to go, but I can't really know until I build a really twisted gish and look at it side by side with another build.

Couldn't I just make a gish, take practiced spellcaster and buy a scroll of PaO?
#10
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 17:36:44 No SRD, only the listed books. I should have listed this before, but I didn't think pixie would come up in my question Re gish.

"The following section lists all retired and or banned classes, races, items, skills, ect. that are not already listed above.

DMG:
* Ring of Blink - Banned
Races of the Dragon:
Dragonborn of Bahamut - Banned
Monster Manual:
* Pixie - Banned
Monster Manual III:
* All Warforged - Banned (Nothing from Eberron)
Last Updated ( Friday, 02 May 2008 )"

Warlock was banned at one point, but I guess some enterprising soul convinced the DM it was ok.
#11
sinfire_titan
May 10, 2008 17:57:22
No SRD, only the listed books. I should have listed this before, but I didn't think pixie would come up in my question Re gish.

"The following section lists all retired and or banned classes, races, items, skills, ect. that are not already listed above.

DMG:
* Ring of Blink - Banned
Races of the Dragon:
Dragonborn of Bahamut - Banned
Monster Manual:
* Pixie - Banned
Monster Manual III:
* All Warforged - Banned (Nothing from Eberron)
Last Updated ( Friday, 02 May 2008 )"

Warlock was banned at one point, but I guess some enterprising soul convinced the DM it was ok.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
!

Those are the good ones! Why no Warforged?

And a Divine Gish or something out of the Bo9S should do the trick. Look around, they have a great number of Divine handbooks. Or just do Druid 14, have a Dire Bear or Fleshraker as your Companion, and buff the living hell out of them.
#12
atsuishoto
May 10, 2008 18:08:31 The conditions of the match/skirmish/gauntlet/layer of hell seem contrived to make spellcasting crappy. Perhaps a simple, straight forward, smash-em-up type would be your best bet.
#13
braithwaite
May 10, 2008 18:32:11 You are correct sirs. I play lots of druids, so my druid build doesn't need input. I have a couple of tank builds, which I may post later. They tend to be high AC builds, which isn't normally optimized but work well in this format. (1/2 my brain wants Bo9S approved, the other half wants to keep it simple.) I don't have a lot of confidence in my gishing skills, so I wanted specific gish input from the experts.

For the record, my best showing so far was a Gravetouched ghoul Monk Sorcerer with stupidly high pre-buff AC. I guess you would call that a gish, but it breaks most of the gish rules and I don't really think it counts.
#14
ShakaUVM
May 11, 2008 5:38:10 Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Players Guide to Faerun, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Players Hand Book II, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Libris Mortis, Races of the Dragon, Monster Manual III.

Hmm.

I'd personally go the exact opposite of a gish in this case, and take mage slayer / pierce magical protection, etc. But you want a gish, eh?

Since you're talking an endurance competition (how much endurance are we talking, btw? It usually means a normal caster would burn through all their spells), Tome of Battle pops to mind, but your DM doesn't allow that. Warlock is the only real spellcasting-ish class with long endurance, or possibly a druid or MoMF who goes for Wild Shape.

How about:
Deep Dwarf Cleric 1 (Luck, ??) / Warlock 6 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Whatever 2
Essentially, you earth glide into the ground, and then attack people with your 8d6 (with a chausible) eldritch glaive or other tricks above the ground all day long. Depending on your invocations taken, you can do fairly nasty things, like Black Tentacles all day long, or being able to heal yourself via targetted dispel magics.
#15
braithwaite
May 11, 2008 7:54:51
Hmm.

I'd personally go the exact opposite of a gish in this case, and take mage slayer / pierce magical protection, etc. But you want a gish, eh?

Since you're talking an endurance competition (how much endurance are we talking, btw?

The record a couple years ago was something like 25 encounters before dying. Now, not all of those were combat. There are some puzzles, and some quasi combat (a long hallway with a tarrasque at one end and a door at the other, reach door before you get eaten), but mostly ecl +2-4 combats.

It usually means a normal caster would burn through all their spells)

Well, I will no doubt buy a wand or staff or 2, and a generous allowance of scrolls. And a good gish should do OK just hitting things in rounds where battles seem under control.

How about:
Deep Dwarf Cleric 1 (Luck, ??) / Warlock 6 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Whatever 2
Essentially, you earth glide into the ground, and then attack people with your 8d6 (with a chausible) eldritch glaive or other tricks above the ground all day long. Depending on your invocations taken, you can do fairly nasty things, like Black Tentacles all day long, or being able to heal yourself via targetted dispel magics.

Hmm, I'll look at earth dreamer again. Might work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 braithwaite May 10, 2008 11:47:40	Looking for suggestions for a level 14 Gish. He will be created at 14 and will never level, so no need to worry about a 20 build. The character will be used in a single endurance session in which DMs will throw optimized, CR appropriate encounters at the party in rapid succession until they die. Probably no chance to rest or rememorize spells ever. Random time elapse of d4 rounds, hours or days between encounters, so buffs will generally drop. Best performing characters will go to PVP in finals. There will be a party of 6, but won’t know other classes until game day. Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Players Guide to Faerun, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Players Hand Book II, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Libris Mortis, Races of the Dragon, Monster Manual III. Current thought (advice welcome): Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 20 Duskblade 3 (Arcane Strike, Good BAB, free Combat casting) (Stalwart) Sorcerer 4 Spellsword 1 Abjurant Champion 5 Sorcerer 1? Overall BAB +11, Sorc Casting 11 Feats: H Spell Penetration? 1.Power attack D2: Combat Casting 3 ? SSorc: Weap Focus: Glaive 6 Short Haft 9 Blade of Force 12 Improved Crit: Glaive? Duskblade spells include: True Strike, Swift Exp Retreat, Stand S1: Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Protection From Evil, 2 more S2 Wraithstrike, Resist Energy, False Life, Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity S3 Vampiric Touch, Dispel Magic, Ray of Dizziness, Fly S4 Rebuke, Orb of Force, 1 more S5 Night’s Caress I have some other non gish ideas I’m working on, but please keep this thread Gishy.
#2 ninjarabbit May 10, 2008 12:03:19	I would say either a battlesorcerer9/abjurantchampion5 or a beguiler1/duskblade4/ur-priest9 for channeled harms among many other things.
#3 braithwaite May 10, 2008 12:07:39	No Unearthed Arcana. Battlesorcerer is out. Allowed books are based on what DM owns.
#4 gaffer May 10, 2008 12:36:04	How cheesy do you wanna get? You've got all the necessary tools for one of my favorites. Fighter 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 1/Incantatrix 4/Abjurant Champ 3 Free Persistent spells via Incantatrix (pump that spellcraft check) for stuff like Wraithstrike, Polymorph, etc. Grab Power attack and go to town.
#5 braithwaite May 10, 2008 12:55:36	I'll go as cheesy as I can. Being banned for excessive brokenness is regarded as a compliment. The incantrix build is a great build for a traditional dungeon where you can buff in safety and then go from room to room in full battle splendor. Heres the problem. We get 0 prep time for most rooms (rooms determined at random), and there is random time lapse after each room. So, I pop in in a random location and hope that I'm not already in reach of some huge monster. Then I need to do a full round action to cast a persistent spell with MM effect without being clobbered. Then the persistent spell has a 1 in 4 chance of dropping each room (random time lapse, rounds, minutes, hours or days). Under these conditions I think a quickened or channeled spell build works better. I like the Ur-priest idea tho. I'm exploring it.
#6 gaffer May 10, 2008 14:03:00	Oh, I misunderstood your original conditions. I figured you could pop up a few Persistent buffs as you went and have them stick around all day. I guess if you were really serious you could drop a Solid Fog and then buff, but it doesn't do much good if they randomly fall off. You know, you might consider the Cleric route with Ordained Champion and Swift war domain spells. Either that, or perhaps a Swiftblade build might work. They come to fruition earlier than 14, don't they? Edit: You know, I'm wondering if Gish is the way to go here. They usually require a bit of warmup to hit their pinnacle. You might consider PaOing yourself into something terrible so that never expires, then making liberal use of Swift/Quickened buffs and Arcane strike.
#7 carnivore May 10, 2008 16:02:06	try this: Pixie Warlock 8/ Pious Templar 2 feats: Dodge(pixie bonus) Weapon Finnesse(pixie Bonus) True Believer(corellon) Weapon Focus(long Sword) Flyby Attack Combat Reflexes equipment: 8150gp Millenial Chainmail(Relic)(MIC) +1 Mithral Chain, Light Armor,+8 max Dex, Armor chk -2, ASF 15% ....... Incredible armor ..... Gives Fast Healing 3 continuously thus you have : Great attributes:–4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma. Greater invisibility at will Flight 60(good) Fast Healing 3 DR 10/Cold iron SR 25 Mettle Unlimited attacks... 4d6 EB + Invocations invocatons: least: Baleful Utterance... Unlimited Shatters Eldritch Glaive... reach while flying See the Unseen lesser: Flee the Scene Sudden Swarm I personally like the pixie warlock. Sure, you pay 4 LA, but you more than make up with it with versatility and utter ridiculousness. Pixie gives you: - +8 dex and +6 cha (amongst other stat adjustments) - Small size. Harder to hit and easier to hit others - 60 foot (good) fly speed - Dodge as a bonus feat - +1 natural armor - DR 10/cold iron, Spell resistance 15+levels and persistent (suppressible) greater invisibility. - Some nice SLAs. This race was made for warlocks. You can fly around, invisible and hurl little eldritch blasts at your enemies. Best thing is, you are virtually guaranteed damage and you are virtually untouchable. - Because Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack, your target gets no armor or natural armor bonuses to their AC. - Unless your target can see invis, they further get no dex or dodge bonus to AC and you get a +2 on your attacks against sighted targets. So let's see...they don't get dodge, dex, armor or natural armor bonuses...they still get um...size...and um...deflection. With +8 to your dex, some BAB, +2 for being invis and +1 for being small, you can virtually guarantee a hit EVERY TIME. So what about when they strike back? Oh well, first they have to find you (invisible). Then they have to reach you somehow (flying). Then they have to hit you (small size and high dex). Then they have to overcome either your spell resistance or your damage reduction. Not very likely they'll be hitting you much. You can see where all this is going. Sure, a fighter could dish out more damage in one round. But your steady once per round 7d6 and nigh untouchability will certainly make you a force to be reckoned with. With the right feat selection and items, I truly believe this character would be just about invincible unless the DM specifically is trying to take you down. You can outlast just about anything in the game. :D
#8 altpersona May 10, 2008 17:30:18	hmm, pixie warlock soul eater? i would not go with a regular gish. unless you have wands of unlimited X, or the like. might as well just have a high UMD and go ToB or warlock, or rage or one of the every round of every day types.. the pixie warlock/X sounds good to me, but i would be tempted to use some ToB.. as far as Unearthed arcana, how about SRD stuff?
#9 braithwaite May 10, 2008 17:33:31	Edit: You know, I'm wondering if Gish is the way to go here. They usually require a bit of warmup to hit their pinnacle. You might consider PaOing yourself into something terrible so that never expires, then making liberal use of Swift/Quickened buffs and Arcane strike. Yeah, I have a few months to prepare, so when I'm bored I try different character builds. I'm not sure if gish is the way to go, but I can't really know until I build a really twisted gish and look at it side by side with another build. Couldn't I just make a gish, take practiced spellcaster and buy a scroll of PaO?
#10 braithwaite May 10, 2008 17:36:44	No SRD, only the listed books. I should have listed this before, but I didn't think pixie would come up in my question Re gish. "The following section lists all retired and or banned classes, races, items, skills, ect. that are not already listed above. DMG: * Ring of Blink - Banned Races of the Dragon: Dragonborn of Bahamut - Banned Monster Manual: * Pixie - Banned Monster Manual III: * All Warforged - Banned (Nothing from Eberron) Last Updated ( Friday, 02 May 2008 )" Warlock was banned at one point, but I guess some enterprising soul convinced the DM it was ok.
#11 sinfire_titan May 10, 2008 17:57:22	No SRD, only the listed books. I should have listed this before, but I didn't think pixie would come up in my question Re gish. "The following section lists all retired and or banned classes, races, items, skills, ect. that are not already listed above. DMG: * Ring of Blink - Banned Races of the Dragon: Dragonborn of Bahamut - Banned Monster Manual: * Pixie - Banned Monster Manual III: * All Warforged - Banned (Nothing from Eberron) Last Updated ( Friday, 02 May 2008 )" Warlock was banned at one point, but I guess some enterprising soul convinced the DM it was ok. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! Those are the good ones! Why no Warforged? And a Divine Gish or something out of the Bo9S should do the trick. Look around, they have a great number of Divine handbooks. Or just do Druid 14, have a Dire Bear or Fleshraker as your Companion, and buff the living hell out of them.
#12 atsuishoto May 10, 2008 18:08:31	The conditions of the match/skirmish/gauntlet/layer of hell seem contrived to make spellcasting crappy. Perhaps a simple, straight forward, smash-em-up type would be your best bet.
#13 braithwaite May 10, 2008 18:32:11	You are correct sirs. I play lots of druids, so my druid build doesn't need input. I have a couple of tank builds, which I may post later. They tend to be high AC builds, which isn't normally optimized but work well in this format. (1/2 my brain wants Bo9S approved, the other half wants to keep it simple.) I don't have a lot of confidence in my gishing skills, so I wanted specific gish input from the experts. For the record, my best showing so far was a Gravetouched ghoul Monk Sorcerer with stupidly high pre-buff AC. I guess you would call that a gish, but it breaks most of the gish rules and I don't really think it counts.
#14 ShakaUVM May 11, 2008 5:38:10	Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Players Guide to Faerun, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Players Hand Book II, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, Sandstorm, Libris Mortis, Races of the Dragon, Monster Manual III. Hmm. I'd personally go the exact opposite of a gish in this case, and take mage slayer / pierce magical protection, etc. But you want a gish, eh? Since you're talking an endurance competition (how much endurance are we talking, btw? It usually means a normal caster would burn through all their spells), Tome of Battle pops to mind, but your DM doesn't allow that. Warlock is the only real spellcasting-ish class with long endurance, or possibly a druid or MoMF who goes for Wild Shape. How about: Deep Dwarf Cleric 1 (Luck, ??) / Warlock 6 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Whatever 2 Essentially, you earth glide into the ground, and then attack people with your 8d6 (with a chausible) eldritch glaive or other tricks above the ground all day long. Depending on your invocations taken, you can do fairly nasty things, like Black Tentacles all day long, or being able to heal yourself via targetted dispel magics.
#15 braithwaite May 11, 2008 7:54:51	Hmm. I'd personally go the exact opposite of a gish in this case, and take mage slayer / pierce magical protection, etc. But you want a gish, eh? Since you're talking an endurance competition (how much endurance are we talking, btw? The record a couple years ago was something like 25 encounters before dying. Now, not all of those were combat. There are some puzzles, and some quasi combat (a long hallway with a tarrasque at one end and a door at the other, reach door before you get eaten), but mostly ecl +2-4 combats. It usually means a normal caster would burn through all their spells) Well, I will no doubt buy a wand or staff or 2, and a generous allowance of scrolls. And a good gish should do OK just hitting things in rounds where battles seem under control. How about: Deep Dwarf Cleric 1 (Luck, ??) / Warlock 6 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Whatever 2 Essentially, you earth glide into the ground, and then attack people with your 8d6 (with a chausible) eldritch glaive or other tricks above the ground all day long. Depending on your invocations taken, you can do fairly nasty things, like Black Tentacles all day long, or being able to heal yourself via targetted dispel magics. Hmm, I'll look at earth dreamer again. Might work.