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Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
staticx278
Nov 24, 2009 17:01:23 So I spent the better part of yesterday looking for all the stuff on Fighter/Mage types, and it all seems to have gone the way of the do-do, which makes me sad . So unfortunately, I have to ask for help on a subject that's been beaten to death ><.

I'm working on a character for a long running campaign (It's older than I am.....). This character is going to be coming in at 10th level. Right now, our party mage is a blaster type, and generally ignores the whole buffing aspect of the class, and we have no backup fighter type, I figured I would go the route of a polearm using fighter/mage type. I'm working on the idea of a focused specialist Transmuter with Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy as banned schools. As far as the GM is concerned, he's fairly open about books, as long as they aren't game breakers. Optimization is one thing, cheese is another thing entirely. So far here's what I've come up with

Standard Edition - Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 9 / Abjurant Champion 5
Skill Monkey add-on - Human Paragon 3 / Wizard 3 / Ruathar 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 6
Slight tweak to the standard - Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Dragonslayer 1 / Eldritch Knight 6

The biggest concept I had in my mind for this was the Magic Knight class from Final Fantasy V. Instead of dropping a fireball on the crowd, he would enchant his weapon with fire and start hitting targets, ultimately achieving a similar result. I do kind of like the Skill monkey add-on, simply because it does kind of get the feeling of red mage from 8-bit theater comics, but I'm not entirely sure that it's the optimal way to go. I end up being down 2 feats compared to either of the two other builds, but I end up with a ton of skill points for things like UMD, Spot, Search, Move Silent, etc.

As far as equipment goes, I was looking at using a glaive, with access to weapon shift to make it fit whatever need I need to make it, and a feycrafted, mithral, thistledown chain shirt enchanted up. With the skill build, it would give me plenty of ranks for move silent, combined with nightstalker transformation would make for pretty evil beat downs while invis and moving silently. However, if I am forgetting something, please do let me know, I'm still a little new at this whole thing.

Also, incase someone does know, do spells like Tenser's Transformation and such (spells that remove your spellcasting ability) limit the ability to use things like arcane strike? To me the feat specifically says you lose your ability to cast spells, and well, arcane strike is activating a feat, which would lend evidence to being able to do it, but then again there's the whole aspect of you can't cast spells, you don't have access to those spell slots while under the effects of the spell, thus you don't have access to anything arcane strike fuel. Sooo if anyone has seen anything about this, or has a cited source, please do let me know as well

Thanks much in advance!

#2
gorfnad_the_shiznit
Nov 25, 2009 3:00:40 Gish, some skills, flaming weapons (well, in case of the build below Sonic weapons) Red Mage type feel...how about going with bard?

Human CG
1. Bard - Dragon Touched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Dragon Heritage: Battle Dragon, Able Learner, 2x Flaws
2. Bard
3. Bard - Song of the Heart
4. Bard
5. Bard
6. Bard - Words of Creation
7. Crusader
8. Crusader
9. Jade Phoenix Mage - Song of the White Raven
10. Jade Phoenix Mage
11. Sublime Chord
12. Sublime Chord - Snowflake Wardance
13. Jade Phoenix Mage
14. Jade Phoenix Mage
15. Jade Phoenix Mage - Melodic Spellcasting
16. Jade Phoenix Mage
17. Jade Phoenix Mage
18. Jade Phoenix Mage - Versatile Spellcaster or Lingering Song
19. Jade Phoenix Mage
20. Jade Phoenix Mage
BAB 17, Saves 12/8/11, 9th level Arcane Spells CL 16, Initiator Level 16
Items of Note: Harmonizing Echo Blade (MIC), Vest of Legends (DMGII), Badge of Valor (MIC)
Spells of Note: Inspirational Boost(SC), Creaking Cacophony(SC), Undersong (SC), Harmonize and Harmonize Greater (both RoS).
It has the skill monkey aspect (and UMD), it can dish it out in combat, and your party will love all the nice extra sonic damage their attacks deal.

Other potential bard gishes: Fighter 2/ Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3, Paladin 2/ Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3, Paladin 4/ Bard 16 - no 9th level spells but when combined with Harmonious Knight substitution, Devoted Performer, Inititiate of Milil, Dragon Fire Inspiration, and Snowflake Wardance it could lead to a very interesting gish type character.
#3
staticx278
Nov 25, 2009 13:31:49 Thanks for the response, although personally, I just don't enjoy bards as a character, not to mention it doesn't make sense with the character's background as I've gotten it so far. 2nd, our DM isn't allowing ToB, so no crusader or JPM...

And he did veto Swiftblade... But is allowing wraithstrike *shrug*. For some reason, he also denied the reserve feats.
#4
lycanthrope0
Nov 26, 2009 8:30:44 one of my personal favorite builds has always bee the simple fighter 2/wizard 4/ abjurant champion 5/ eldritch knight 9

i like it because it is simple and its good from 1-20 no weak spots. drop the armor if you are going to go with abjurant champion on any build greater mage armor gives you a +11 armor bonus at the point you finish it.

Another option if you are wanting a bit more skills is a monk based fighter mage i would go something like this

Monk 2/ wizard 3/ Enlightened fist 5/ Abjurant champion 5/ ardent savant 5
nets you a decent set of skills and a very crazy AC from just Greater Mage Armor and shield ( +16 and +9 respectively ) add in dex and Int ( carmadine monk or kungfu genious) plus bite of the werexxx for nat armor and you are set dont forget the few points you add in for being a 6th level monk ( Monk and EF levels if you forgo the belt of battle and get a monks belt you should have at least a 35 AC before stats natural armor and deflection bonus from items.

but if you really want to abuse arcan strike i always suggest a sorcerer build instead of a wizard. you may end up casting lower level spells but you will have more spell slots to use for arcane strike.
I would probably go Human paragon 3/ sorcerer 4/ abjurant champion 5 / war mage prc 5/ arch mage 4
powered with divine power from arcane devote - war or throw in 4 levels of havok mage for some arcane channeling instead of SLA of Arch mage.

hope this help. i can give a level by level brake down of when i would take the classess and list feats if wanted on any build
#5
staticx278
Nov 28, 2009 9:44:56 How are you getting 11AC from Greater Mage armor? I thought it was a conjuration spell, therefore Abjurant Champions bonus type action wouldn't work?

And... This character may or may not be good enough to use the exalted spells for Luminous Armor and such ><
#6
godkyra
Nov 28, 2009 14:38:34 Clich, I know but:

Here's one I made earlier...

there's no breakdown but it is complete and legitimate. Feel free to use it if you don't want to create your own. He does have a reserve feat (Dimensional Jaunt) but feel free to sub it for something you think is more useful.

You'll also be wanting to change the spells - he's somewhat limited as a sorceror.
#7
lycanthrope0
Nov 29, 2009 9:01:04
How are you getting 11AC from Greater Mage armor? I thought it was a conjuration spell, therefore Abjurant Champions bonus type action wouldn't work?

And... This character may or may not be good enough to use the exalted spells for Luminous Armor and such ><

nope mage armor and mage armor greater are abjurations and the only spells that abj champion works for without house rules shield is the conjuration spells ( i think at least i know its nots abjurations )

Ron
#8
garindal
Nov 29, 2009 10:23:55 Actually, you've got that backwards. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are Conjuration(Creation) and Shield is Abjuration(Force)
#9
staticx278
Nov 29, 2009 10:42:08
Clich, I know but:

Here's one I made earlier...

there's no breakdown but it is complete and legitimate. Feel free to use it if you don't want to create your own. He does have a reserve feat (Dimensional Jaunt) but feel free to sub it for something you think is more useful.

You'll also be wanting to change the spells - he's somewhat limited as a sorceror.

I'm curious, how were you able to get caster level 20 with 4 levels of fighter, and the 1 level loss in Eldritch Knight? The way I was seeing it, you were at 15th level caster, which as a sorc gets maxes you out at 7th level spells...
#10
godkyra
Nov 29, 2009 15:42:44 That'll be the 17 BAB - Abjurant champion raises my Caster level to my BAB if it is lower - add onto that the Practised Spell caster feat (which bumbs it up by up to +4) and it makes a bit more sense.

Edit: Also, Fighter is only level 2 - Sorceror is level 4. I may edit that to make it clearer on the document.
#11
staticx278
Nov 29, 2009 15:43:45
That'll be the 17 BAB - Abjurant champion raises my Caster level to my BAB if it is lower - add onto that the Practised Spell caster feat (which bumbs it up by up to +4) and it makes a bit more sense.

Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells.

#12
lormador
Nov 29, 2009 20:22:17 Battle Sorcerer from UA is the only character I know of that can get Arcane Strike at 6th level. In fact I recommend this for most Gish characters. Starting around 10th level, the INT-casting Gish catches up, but CHA casting is quite efficient and deadly once you know what spells you'll need. A 4 level dip into Abjurant Champion is worth the Combat Casting feat, opening +16 BA at 20th and quickened Shield/Pro Evil/Resist Energy.

Another quality Gish takes the Outsider feat (proficiency with martial weapons and other buff goodies) into the Martial Wizard variant and climbing into the Dragonslayer/Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion family, dropping the fighter levels entirely and riding Alter Self / Polymorph to glory. You get to prepare spells with this one, but it might smack of cheese. Whether that adds to the flavor or clashes with the wine is a matter of taste.
#13
ancientdragon
Nov 30, 2009 10:26:18 If you'd like sorcerer instead of wizard, wich is often good for a gish, I could suggest you the Dragonspawn White template. You surely have heard of it, but in case you haven't, look for it in Dragonlance Champaign Setting. Practically is free stat bonus and wings. And don't forget that sorcerer has lots of nice alternate class features, like battle sorcerer from unearthed arcana (even if I like it best at pretty much lower levels) and, as pointed out recenlty in a topic of mine, stalwart sorcerer from complete mage.

Have fun!
#14
godkyra
Nov 30, 2009 11:50:00
Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells.

:/ you've lost me here, or perhaps I've missed something...

Vectus can cast 8th level spells at CL16 - his actual caster level (disregarding the Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist ability) is 17.

Sorc: 4
SS:    1
AC:    5
EK:    7

=      17

I know that improved caster level doesn't mean additional (higher level) spells but that doesn't affect my character at all, does it? Removing the Practised Spellcaster feat wouldn't change Vectus in any way, except that some of his spells would have reduced power/duration. He wouldn't lose his 8th level spells.

#15
staticx278
Nov 30, 2009 16:40:59
Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells.

:/ you've lost me here, or perhaps I've missed something...

Vectus can cast 8th level spells at CL16 - his actual caster level (disregarding the Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist ability) is 17.

Sorc: 4
SS:    1
AC:    5
EK:    7

=      17

I know that improved caster level doesn't mean additional (higher level) spells but that doesn't affect my character at all, does it? Removing the Practised Spellcaster feat wouldn't change Vectus in any way, except that some of his spells would have reduced power/duration. He wouldn't lose his 8th level spells.

My mistake, For some reason I saw 4 levels of fighter and not sorcerer. I blame fatigue, that's usually a good culprit :P Statement withdrawn.

So Sorc CL 17 is 8th level spells, you just don't see 9th level spells pre-epic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 staticx278 Nov 24, 2009 17:01:23	So I spent the better part of yesterday looking for all the stuff on Fighter/Mage types, and it all seems to have gone the way of the do-do, which makes me sad . So unfortunately, I have to ask for help on a subject that's been beaten to death ><. I'm working on a character for a long running campaign (It's older than I am.....). This character is going to be coming in at 10th level. Right now, our party mage is a blaster type, and generally ignores the whole buffing aspect of the class, and we have no backup fighter type, I figured I would go the route of a polearm using fighter/mage type. I'm working on the idea of a focused specialist Transmuter with Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy as banned schools. As far as the GM is concerned, he's fairly open about books, as long as they aren't game breakers. Optimization is one thing, cheese is another thing entirely. So far here's what I've come up with Standard Edition - Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 9 / Abjurant Champion 5 Skill Monkey add-on - Human Paragon 3 / Wizard 3 / Ruathar 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 6 Slight tweak to the standard - Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Dragonslayer 1 / Eldritch Knight 6 The biggest concept I had in my mind for this was the Magic Knight class from Final Fantasy V. Instead of dropping a fireball on the crowd, he would enchant his weapon with fire and start hitting targets, ultimately achieving a similar result. I do kind of like the Skill monkey add-on, simply because it does kind of get the feeling of red mage from 8-bit theater comics, but I'm not entirely sure that it's the optimal way to go. I end up being down 2 feats compared to either of the two other builds, but I end up with a ton of skill points for things like UMD, Spot, Search, Move Silent, etc. As far as equipment goes, I was looking at using a glaive, with access to weapon shift to make it fit whatever need I need to make it, and a feycrafted, mithral, thistledown chain shirt enchanted up. With the skill build, it would give me plenty of ranks for move silent, combined with nightstalker transformation would make for pretty evil beat downs while invis and moving silently. However, if I am forgetting something, please do let me know, I'm still a little new at this whole thing. Also, incase someone does know, do spells like Tenser's Transformation and such (spells that remove your spellcasting ability) limit the ability to use things like arcane strike? To me the feat specifically says you lose your ability to cast spells, and well, arcane strike is activating a feat, which would lend evidence to being able to do it, but then again there's the whole aspect of you can't cast spells, you don't have access to those spell slots while under the effects of the spell, thus you don't have access to anything arcane strike fuel. Sooo if anyone has seen anything about this, or has a cited source, please do let me know as well Thanks much in advance!
#2 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 25, 2009 3:00:40	Gish, some skills, flaming weapons (well, in case of the build below Sonic weapons) Red Mage type feel...how about going with bard? Human CG 1. Bard - Dragon Touched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Dragon Heritage: Battle Dragon, Able Learner, 2x Flaws 2. Bard 3. Bard - Song of the Heart 4. Bard 5. Bard 6. Bard - Words of Creation 7. Crusader 8. Crusader 9. Jade Phoenix Mage - Song of the White Raven 10. Jade Phoenix Mage 11. Sublime Chord 12. Sublime Chord - Snowflake Wardance 13. Jade Phoenix Mage 14. Jade Phoenix Mage 15. Jade Phoenix Mage - Melodic Spellcasting 16. Jade Phoenix Mage 17. Jade Phoenix Mage 18. Jade Phoenix Mage - Versatile Spellcaster or Lingering Song 19. Jade Phoenix Mage 20. Jade Phoenix Mage BAB 17, Saves 12/8/11, 9th level Arcane Spells CL 16, Initiator Level 16 Items of Note: Harmonizing Echo Blade (MIC), Vest of Legends (DMGII), Badge of Valor (MIC) Spells of Note: Inspirational Boost(SC), Creaking Cacophony(SC), Undersong (SC), Harmonize and Harmonize Greater (both RoS). It has the skill monkey aspect (and UMD), it can dish it out in combat, and your party will love all the nice extra sonic damage their attacks deal. Other potential bard gishes: Fighter 2/ Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3, Paladin 2/ Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3, Paladin 4/ Bard 16 - no 9th level spells but when combined with Harmonious Knight substitution, Devoted Performer, Inititiate of Milil, Dragon Fire Inspiration, and Snowflake Wardance it could lead to a very interesting gish type character.
#3 staticx278 Nov 25, 2009 13:31:49	Thanks for the response, although personally, I just don't enjoy bards as a character, not to mention it doesn't make sense with the character's background as I've gotten it so far. 2nd, our DM isn't allowing ToB, so no crusader or JPM... And he did veto Swiftblade... But is allowing wraithstrike shrug. For some reason, he also denied the reserve feats.
#4 lycanthrope0 Nov 26, 2009 8:30:44	one of my personal favorite builds has always bee the simple fighter 2/wizard 4/ abjurant champion 5/ eldritch knight 9 i like it because it is simple and its good from 1-20 no weak spots. drop the armor if you are going to go with abjurant champion on any build greater mage armor gives you a +11 armor bonus at the point you finish it. Another option if you are wanting a bit more skills is a monk based fighter mage i would go something like this Monk 2/ wizard 3/ Enlightened fist 5/ Abjurant champion 5/ ardent savant 5 nets you a decent set of skills and a very crazy AC from just Greater Mage Armor and shield ( +16 and +9 respectively ) add in dex and Int ( carmadine monk or kungfu genious) plus bite of the werexxx for nat armor and you are set dont forget the few points you add in for being a 6th level monk ( Monk and EF levels if you forgo the belt of battle and get a monks belt you should have at least a 35 AC before stats natural armor and deflection bonus from items. but if you really want to abuse arcan strike i always suggest a sorcerer build instead of a wizard. you may end up casting lower level spells but you will have more spell slots to use for arcane strike. I would probably go Human paragon 3/ sorcerer 4/ abjurant champion 5 / war mage prc 5/ arch mage 4 powered with divine power from arcane devote - war or throw in 4 levels of havok mage for some arcane channeling instead of SLA of Arch mage. hope this help. i can give a level by level brake down of when i would take the classess and list feats if wanted on any build
#5 staticx278 Nov 28, 2009 9:44:56	How are you getting 11AC from Greater Mage armor? I thought it was a conjuration spell, therefore Abjurant Champions bonus type action wouldn't work? And... This character may or may not be good enough to use the exalted spells for Luminous Armor and such ><
#6 godkyra Nov 28, 2009 14:38:34	Clich, I know but: Here's one I made earlier... there's no breakdown but it is complete and legitimate. Feel free to use it if you don't want to create your own. He does have a reserve feat (Dimensional Jaunt) but feel free to sub it for something you think is more useful. You'll also be wanting to change the spells - he's somewhat limited as a sorceror.
#7 lycanthrope0 Nov 29, 2009 9:01:04	How are you getting 11AC from Greater Mage armor? I thought it was a conjuration spell, therefore Abjurant Champions bonus type action wouldn't work? And... This character may or may not be good enough to use the exalted spells for Luminous Armor and such >< nope mage armor and mage armor greater are abjurations and the only spells that abj champion works for without house rules shield is the conjuration spells ( i think at least i know its nots abjurations ) Ron
#8 garindal Nov 29, 2009 10:23:55	Actually, you've got that backwards. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are Conjuration(Creation) and Shield is Abjuration(Force)
#9 staticx278 Nov 29, 2009 10:42:08	Clich, I know but: Here's one I made earlier... there's no breakdown but it is complete and legitimate. Feel free to use it if you don't want to create your own. He does have a reserve feat (Dimensional Jaunt) but feel free to sub it for something you think is more useful. You'll also be wanting to change the spells - he's somewhat limited as a sorceror. I'm curious, how were you able to get caster level 20 with 4 levels of fighter, and the 1 level loss in Eldritch Knight? The way I was seeing it, you were at 15th level caster, which as a sorc gets maxes you out at 7th level spells...
#10 godkyra Nov 29, 2009 15:42:44	That'll be the 17 BAB - Abjurant champion raises my Caster level to my BAB if it is lower - add onto that the Practised Spell caster feat (which bumbs it up by up to +4) and it makes a bit more sense. Edit: Also, Fighter is only level 2 - Sorceror is level 4. I may edit that to make it clearer on the document.
#11 staticx278 Nov 29, 2009 15:43:45	That'll be the 17 BAB - Abjurant champion raises my Caster level to my BAB if it is lower - add onto that the Practised Spell caster feat (which bumbs it up by up to +4) and it makes a bit more sense. Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells.
#12 lormador Nov 29, 2009 20:22:17	Battle Sorcerer from UA is the only character I know of that can get Arcane Strike at 6th level. In fact I recommend this for most Gish characters. Starting around 10th level, the INT-casting Gish catches up, but CHA casting is quite efficient and deadly once you know what spells you'll need. A 4 level dip into Abjurant Champion is worth the Combat Casting feat, opening +16 BA at 20th and quickened Shield/Pro Evil/Resist Energy. Another quality Gish takes the Outsider feat (proficiency with martial weapons and other buff goodies) into the Martial Wizard variant and climbing into the Dragonslayer/Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion family, dropping the fighter levels entirely and riding Alter Self / Polymorph to glory. You get to prepare spells with this one, but it might smack of cheese. Whether that adds to the flavor or clashes with the wine is a matter of taste.
#13 ancientdragon Nov 30, 2009 10:26:18	If you'd like sorcerer instead of wizard, wich is often good for a gish, I could suggest you the Dragonspawn White template. You surely have heard of it, but in case you haven't, look for it in Dragonlance Champaign Setting. Practically is free stat bonus and wings. And don't forget that sorcerer has lots of nice alternate class features, like battle sorcerer from unearthed arcana (even if I like it best at pretty much lower levels) and, as pointed out recenlty in a topic of mine, stalwart sorcerer from complete mage. Have fun!
#14 godkyra Nov 30, 2009 11:50:00	Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells. :/ you've lost me here, or perhaps I've missed something... Vectus can cast 8th level spells at CL16 - his actual caster level (disregarding the Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist ability) is 17. Sorc: 4 SS: 1 AC: 5 EK: 7 = 17 I know that improved caster level doesn't mean additional (higher level) spells but that doesn't affect my character at all, does it? Removing the Practised Spellcaster feat wouldn't change Vectus in any way, except that some of his spells would have reduced power/duration. He wouldn't lose his 8th level spells.
#15 staticx278 Nov 30, 2009 16:40:59	Gotcha, although you're still not able to cast anything higher than 7th level spells just raising caster level for purposes of variables in spells. :/ you've lost me here, or perhaps I've missed something... Vectus can cast 8th level spells at CL16 - his actual caster level (disregarding the Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist ability) is 17. Sorc: 4 SS: 1 AC: 5 EK: 7 = 17 I know that improved caster level doesn't mean additional (higher level) spells but that doesn't affect my character at all, does it? Removing the Practised Spellcaster feat wouldn't change Vectus in any way, except that some of his spells would have reduced power/duration. He wouldn't lose his 8th level spells. My mistake, For some reason I saw 4 levels of fighter and not sorcerer. I blame fatigue, that's usually a good culprit :P Statement withdrawn. So Sorc CL 17 is 8th level spells, you just don't see 9th level spells pre-epic.