Gish vs AMF.

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

sunic_flames

Mar 20, 2008 18:54:55
Note to self: Heavy grapplers with AMF to shut out just about every way of getting away from them suck.

With that said, counters.

MDJ isn't reliable enough. Orbs work of course, but don't do enough damage without metamagic and it has to be good enough to kill them before they can go putting their hands on me. Only way I know of to become immune to AMF involves Cheater of Mystra, which isn't allowed.

Any other ideas?
#2

w00tmanx

Mar 20, 2008 19:23:24
Wall of Stone. Anti-magic Field needs for you to be in the area of effect and solid objects block that. Hell, a Shrink Item tower shield will work. Throw that b*tch on the ground and then dismiss the shrink effect. Xorn movement is another way. Celerity so that you can move away is also a good idea. You don't need to rely on classes or class abilities to overcome AMFs. Just use tactics. ^^
#3

nntp

Mar 20, 2008 19:32:14
1. Stay away. Do they have Ex Flight? If not, problem solved! Also readied teleports or abrupt jaunts. You could also increase your speed.

2. Block them off. Wall of Stone/Iron/Force are all fun. Basically, almost any battlefiled control spell that is based on conjuration.

3. Can they see you? Ex Blindsight? If not, go invisible. Then run away.

4. Necromancy. Lets see them grapple Mountain Troll Skeletons.

5. Battlefield control. Trip them. Mountain Troll Skeletons can do this too.

6. Call some help. Planar Binding is your friend.

Once you've made it so they can't hit you, plink away with orbs and whatnot. Also, these are just general principles. I'm sure there are spells that work perfectly against said grapplers. Just go hunting for SR=no battlefield control spells that do damage. Transmute rock to lava, reverse gravity, and high CL control winds all apply. Remember, the AMF screws their movement for the most part.
#4

adslahnit

Mar 20, 2008 19:34:02
Martial Study ([some Iron Heart maneuver with no prerequisites]) and Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge). Alternatively, a 1-level dip in Warblade if you're willing to lose a level of spellcasting progression just to save two feat slots.
#5

x-codes

Mar 20, 2008 19:52:53
Martial Study ([some Iron Heart maneuver with no prerequisites]) and Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge). Alternatively, a 1-level dip in Warblade if you're willing to lose a level of spellcasting progression just to save two feat slots.

Definitely not a bad trade for gishes. (or Wu-Jens that want to abuse Transcend Mortality/Emerald Immolation)
#6

sunic_flames

Mar 20, 2008 19:52:57
He does have flight not blocked by the AMF. So I'm not sure how much good solid objects are going to do without completely blocking him in.

Banned spells:

Polymorph any Object
Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle.
Contingency.
Time Stop.
Celerity, Lesser Celerity and Greater Celerity.
Shapechange.
Gate.
Planar Binding and Planar Ally (and similar).
Trap The Soul.
Astral Projection.
Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Word of Chaos.
Irresistible Dance.
Rebuke, Final
Magic Jar

In addition, Alter Self and Polymorph absorb your gear like the new wild shape.

Amusingly, Shrink Item and Forcecage are not on the list. Odd.

My speed is 90 (120 with haste) but space limitations prevent this from being a given. Arena maps range from 50 * 80 (I believe the smallest) to 180 * 95 (the largest). I had the bad luck of getting the one with a 10' ceiling where almost the entire arena is within 80' of the center, meaning one failed check and there goes the double move/charge.

Wall spells work, provided they don't just fly right over them. And if they go to the ceiling, well that's just a stall tactic.

I take it the skeletons wouldn't be shut off by AMF? Because a summoned creature definitely would, calling is banned, and bringing allies into the arena I'm 95% sure is banned.

Reverse Gravity works through an AMF?

Because I forgot, and should have said it at the start allowed books:

PHB, DMG, MM1, PHB2, DMG2, SRD class and race variants, Complete Warrior, Eberron Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Magic Item Compendium + any other three 3.5 WotC books. I went with Complete Arcane for Persisted brokenness, Complete Champion because it's awesome in an arena environment, and Spell Compendium for more tasty spells.

Artificer by the way. It works quite well. Almost pure classed, but took a level dip to get several free feats.

*takes notes* IHS stops AMF... interesting.

Most of the problem was I tipped my hand early and pulled out the big guns on him. Should have lobbed another javelin or 2 to knock 20s off his HP, then did it. End result is taking him from 152 to 22 or so, then getting myself grappled because I put myself exactly 40' away straight away. Doh.

Also, apparently Knowledge Devotion won't work to get an insight bonus against someone inside an AMF. I can see the insight shutting off if you're in the AMF, but aside from that...
#7

aftercrescent

Mar 20, 2008 20:06:22
Bull. Knowledge devotion specifically says it is an extraordinary ability, and those function in AMF.
#8

w00tmanx

Mar 20, 2008 21:24:52
Is there any more information that you can give? What is his build, what exactly is your build? How does he have mundane fly speed?
#9

sunic_flames

Mar 20, 2008 21:44:01
He is a Dragonborn Goliath with a cleric dip for a staff of AMF, a bit of swordsage, mostly barbarian. His entire character is built around getting in close and grappling to death, using the AMF to negate the usual counters such as FoM. He's currently sitting on a +33 grapple modifier I believe while raging.

I am an Artificer with a single level of Cloistered Cleric which I used as an easy means of getting Knowledge Devotion (for knowledge: local, most arena combatants are humanoids) and another domain devotion (it was either Law or Animal, the other came from a normal feat). My thing is persisted buffs, and lots of them with the end result of having an AC of 50 (touch 39), saves in the mid 20s, and a damage per hit of 1d10+56 + 2d6 from vicious + possible 2d6 acid from caustic surge, 5d6 electricity from a spell stored shocking grasp, 6d6 * 1.5 from vampiric touch via bloodstone property, and 3d6 sneak attack.

Needless to say, if everything can be applied it tends to be a OHKO. And +23 initiative modifiers are nice.

I'm 13, he's 12 right now. Due to the way the arena works, 2.5 normal wins or 5 normal losses = level up. So it moves fast. Taking handicaps such as unable to buy stuff between fights, unable to recover expended resources between fights and so forth can reduce this substantially. In my case, being a crafting addict makes it slower, but I still manage as I'm strong enough to take the handicaps. :P

If there were no AMF, I'd likely two round KO him at his own game as a +29 grapple modifier without doing anything special to be good at it is respectable, and a claw claw bite in the grapple will average 98 damage + Knowledge Devotion * 3, while almost assuredly hitting on a 2 even with the -4 penalty. It's that high because PA for the max is my default strategy.

I think I could also full attack with unarmed strikes? Not sure, but that'd add another 72 + Knowledge Devotion * 4.

In any case his grapple checks do around 2d6+15 I think it was, average 22. It's a 7 hit KO on me.

Note that I can melee him without being AMFed, as with Greatreach Bracers I have a 20' reach. If I were large, even better. This reduces my glaive damage by 8 though.
#10

nntp

Mar 21, 2008 1:43:06
If you're an Artificer, just use Control Winds. Stick him in a tornado.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds

That'll probably finish the battle right there.

And transmute all the rock around you to lava so he has a nice bath when he falls.

If you're stuck in the low ceiling arenas, Wall of Thorns gets him stuck. Then plink away. You could also ground him with Control Winds in the high ceiling arenas, then Wall of Thorns.

Stalling is not a bad idea. Blocking the battlefield with Walls is a decent stall tactic, actually. Every time he rages, block the battlefield off. Then fight once he's exhausted. If he's a Goliath, he'll probably use Mountain Rage, so if you see him grow, block the battlefield. Going ethereal also stalls the battle, as does Meld with Stone, or any other of quite a few spells. Don't fight while he's raged.

Seriously, you could turn the entire arena into a living hell pretty easily. You're an Artificer.

It looks like your DM really doesn't want to allow allies of any sort, so I'm assuming he'll ban shrinking mountain troll skeletons, and also ban casting Giant Vermin, both of which will work in AMFs and give you superb grapplers.

If you have Spell Compendium, there must be tons of better spells in there. Just look for spells which slow movement...and stack them. A lot of them. This list is just from the SRD.
#11

iliyan

Mar 21, 2008 2:08:46
Ok, here is a tricky one for you, since your a gish, you dont need manny rounds to whack heads... so lets get out of that nasty AMF.. as all the other posters posted, you only need tactics, nothing else

Lets see what AMF does: 10ft radius emanation centered on caster--> wow thats pretty limmited, and lets not just forget, the sucker who did create AMF isnt immune to it!

So, step 2: Grab a Bow, x-bow, and get rdy for step 3:

step 3: now there are countless possibilies on how to do this: Incanatrix can use metamagics to shape the AMF and start whacking... Fly works wonders... Miracle/wish for the spell to end...

heres a cheesy tactic: requirement: floor, ceeling, reverese gravity, ranged wep

ok, cast reverese gravity, cast feather fall to dampen the damage, see that sucker standing in his own AMF, well he isnt going anywhere, since that AMF of his shields him from reverse gravity... so what did we accomplish? you are out of his range, he is in your range, and he is a sitting duck gogo, whack some more heads!
#12

phaedrusxy

Mar 21, 2008 2:45:37
Animated Dead still function just fine in an AMF. If you can start with them, make one that can eat him while grappling and bring it with you.
#13

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 7:13:35
If you're an Artificer, just use Control Winds. Stick him in a tornado.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds

That'll probably finish the battle right there.

And transmute all the rock around you to lava so he has a nice bath when he falls.

If you're stuck in the low ceiling arenas, Wall of Thorns gets him stuck. Then plink away. You could also ground him with Control Winds in the high ceiling arenas, then Wall of Thorns.

Stalling is not a bad idea. Blocking the battlefield with Walls is a decent stall tactic, actually. Every time he rages, block the battlefield off. Then fight once he's exhausted. If he's a Goliath, he'll probably use Mountain Rage, so if you see him grow, block the battlefield. Going ethereal also stalls the battle, as does Meld with Stone, or any other of quite a few spells. Don't fight while he's raged.

Seriously, you could turn the entire arena into a living hell pretty easily. You're an Artificer.

It looks like your DM really doesn't want to allow allies of any sort, so I'm assuming he'll ban shrinking mountain troll skeletons, and also ban casting Giant Vermin, both of which will work in AMFs and give you superb grapplers.

If you have Spell Compendium, there must be tons of better spells in there. Just look for spells which slow movement...and stack them. A lot of them. This list is just from the SRD.

Eye of the Hurricane + Control Winds = Can I make virtual wind strength categories?
Because a 9th level druid could increase the Hurricane's wind strength by two categories beyond Tornado .....

Eye of the Hurricane
Abjuration [Air]
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: 40 ft. radius emanation centered on you, with 10 ft. radius quiet area centered on you
Duration: 1 round./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

With this spell, you create a swirling miniature storm that provides a measure of protection, but leaves you and those near you unaffected. The storm that surrounds you has hurricane-force winds spinning in a circle with you at the center. -snip, lots a wording on Hurricane force winds- The spell's area is effectively a sphere although the area is centered on you, you're not within the wind. -snip, wording for friends-

Tornado (CR 10)
All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph (roughly 250 feet per round). A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction.
#14

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 7:16:51
Xorn movement from SpC is also a good spell to use when the ish hits the fan. what is your "caster level"? Every time he rages, you could just sink into the ground and wait it out. Also, pop up every now and then to give yourself line of sight/effect and do some kind of spell shennanigens. Are you allowed to do spells based off of alter self? Giving yourself a burrow speed from umber hulk if you cannot use Xorn movement is also good.
#15

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 7:33:52
Xorn movement from SpC is also a good spell to use when the ish hits the fan. what is your "caster level"? Every time he rages, you could just sink into the ground and wait it out. Also, pop up every now and then to give yourself line of sight/effect and do some kind of spell shennanigens. Are you allowed to do spells based off of alter self? Giving yourself a burrow speed from umber hulk if you cannot use Xorn movement is also good.

Mobile Spellcasting feat? .... makes you able to move, cast, move (provided you do a concentration check of 20+spell level).... like spring attack but for spells....
#16

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 7:37:43
Where is mobile spellcasting?
#17

Wyvernhand

Mar 21, 2008 7:42:19
Yea, I agree with the get-out-of-Dodge idea. Craft a Ring of FoM and take that Warblade level for IHS. Once he rages, pop IHS to negate the AMF which turns your ring on allowing you to get out of his grapple. Then make like a tree and GTFO, perferably underground. When his rage wears off, pop out of whereever you were hiding and hit him with a wand of Ray of Exhaustion. Since he's already fatigued from raging, he'll automatically go to exhausted, regardless of his save. While he's exhausted, he's effectively slowed, on top of all the other penalties. You can kite him by moving and shooting all day long until he's dead. For ultimate embarasement, hit him with another wand, this one of Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement at CL 10 if you can. This will knock his str down into the low single digits. Then, you walk up to him and grapple him and pin him till he screams uncle.

EDIT: Mobile Spellcasting is in Complete Mage. There is a concentration check for it, but it shouldn't be hard at your level.
#18

netherese

Mar 21, 2008 7:46:48
You should seriously consider taking Skill Focus (Basketweaving) and getting some Gloves of Basketweaving to boost your skill check.

It's all downhill from there...
#19

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 7:47:44
From SRD: "The wall can be destroyed, color by color, in consecutive order, by various magical effects; however, the first color must be brought down before the second can be affected, and so on. A rod of cancellation or a mage’s disjunction spell destroys a prismatic wall, but an antimagic field fails to penetrate it. Dispel magic and greater dispel magic cannot dispel the wall or anything beyond it. Spell resistance is effective against a prismatic wall, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present."

So, once you see his AMF and rage go up, block yourself off with a prismatic sphere. He cannot touch you without probably dying or sent to another plane. GG

Edit: Also, how is he getting Natural or Extraordinary flight movement?
#20

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 7:52:05
Where is mobile spellcasting?

Complete Adventurer...
Edit:
Edit: Also, how is he getting Natural or Extraordinary flight movement?

9 levels of Dragon Disciple?

Note to self: Heavy grapplers with AMF to shut out just about every way of getting away from them suck.

With that said, counters.

MDJ isn't reliable enough. Orbs work of course, but don't do enough damage without metamagic and it has to be good enough to kill them before they can go putting their hands on me. Only way I know of to become immune to AMF involves Cheater of Mystra, which isn't allowed.

Any other ideas?

Incantatrix 3 + Sculpt Spell Metamagic feat? Anti-Magic Can opener 3+int times pr day....
#21

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 7:52:42
Complete Adventurer...

danke
#22

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 7:58:49
danke

bitte ^.^ I don't have Uhmlaud (prolly spelt horribly wrong) so I can get a proper Schon....
#23

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 8:02:13
I really don't think that the spell Antimagic Field is as much of a problem for spellcasters as people seem to think.
#24

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 8:14:50
Shrink Item: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkItem.htm
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: One day/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.

Telekinesis: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Telekinesis.htm
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text

You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force

A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance. -snip-

Given the two points given here.... 375 (the max for telekinesis sustained force) *4000= 150000 ... now lets convert that to damage.... Look at the complete warrior for a damage chart for improvised weapons.... yay... improvised weapons deal 4d6 points of damage for the first 200 lb (theres more in between but meh... not bothering with that) +1d6 per additional 200 lb.... sooo..... lets take (1500000-200)/200 and we have the amount of dice +4d6 for the damage dealt.... well (1500000-200)/200 equals to 7499 then add the 4d6 for the first 200 punds ... 7503d6 points of damage equates to an average damage of 26260.... this is not taking into account that you could be lifting multiple shrinked items (Chain Spell for example)....

Sooo:
step one: Shrink
step two: Telekinesis....
step three: PROFIT!!!11 (In honor of Netherese for coming up with a better catchphrase than me).....Fact: AMF automatically ends the Shrink ... benefit or detriment?
#25

netherese

Mar 21, 2008 8:16:50
@ Neraagile

it's not my catchphrase, it's a 4chan meme xD


@ sunic

apologies for nuking the thread :D
#26

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 8:35:38
jolly good

except the third step should be "PROFIT!!!11"


@ sunic

apologies for nuking the thread :D

Netherese you haven't see the update yet ;)

Edit 2:
@ Neraagile

it's not my catchphrase, it's a 4chan meme xD

Don't care .... brought by you Netherese and you get the credit for it xD
#27

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 8:45:58
Jean Grey would be proud. Now... what item weighs that much?
#28

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 8:49:26
Jean Grey would be proud. Now... what item weighs that much?

extended version.....
Step 1: Wall of Stone
Step 2: Fabricate
Step 3: Shrink Item
Step 4: Telekinesis
Step 5: Profit!!!11.....

if you don't like perfect spheres you could skip step 2 and hurl a wall at them .... now I need to calculate the weight of a Wall of Stone ....

Wall of Stone
Conjuration (Creation) [Earth]
Level: Clr 5, Drd 6, Earth 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Stone wall whose area is up to one 5-ft. square/level (S)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell’s area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.

Like any other stone wall, this one can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell or by normal means such as breaking and chipping. Each 5-foot square of the wall has 15 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.

It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
Arcane Material Component

A small block of granite. from this I will assume that the wall created is Granite ...

From http://forum.onlineconversion.com/archive/index.php?t-36.html
1 Cubic Foot of granite (which we will be conjuring with the Wall of Stone) weighs 168 pounds/cubic foot.... we will be making a wall 100 foot long and 5 inches thick (depth) so we will have 5 foot square (height and length) and 20 squares so 5*5*(5/12)*20= 208 1/3 cubic feet of wall.... which will amount to 208 1/3 *168= 35000 pounds of potential ammo. ... heres a problem though ... we will have to cast Wall of Stone approximately 42.857 times to get the maximum weight capacity possible, well, lets work backwards so we can get the damage acquired from 1 wall of stone... 7503/42.857 ~ 175d6 I think thats enough ...

Okay .... so we have spent 2 (3 with fabricate) 5th level spells and a 3rd level spell

Sunic_Flames if whoever this is intended for complains (if its intended for anyone).... simply say "hey, it's all core!"
#29

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 8:53:05
extended version.....
Step 1: Wall of Stone
Step 2: Fabricate
Step 3: Shrink Item
Step 4: Telekinesis
Step 5: Profit!!!11.....

if you don't like perfect spheres you could skip step 2 and hurl a wall at them ....

Are you sure it works that way? I just checked wall of iron and didn't see any weight entry. I'm looking up wall of stone now but d20srd is being slow. You use fabricate to make a big ass item?
#30

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 8:56:19
also... wouldn't this allow for some sort of reflex save? Or do you think that you could make the area big enough that a reflex save is impossibile?
#31

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 9:12:56
also... wouldn't this allow for some sort of reflex save? Or do you think that you could make the area big enough that a reflex save is impossibile?

Well Violent Thrust (that way you could hurl several walls at the time... 15 to be precise) allows you to do an attack roll against them (BAB+Spellcasting Mod) get Greater Invisibility to flat foot them etc.... or use Sustained Force to drop a single wall on top of their head (nothing that specifies this is not possible.... just no entries to what happens either)

also... wouldn't this allow for some sort of reflex save? Or do you think that you could make the area big enough that a reflex save is impossibile?

No reflex....

Are you sure it works that way? I just checked wall of iron and didn't see any weight entry. I'm looking up wall of stone now but d20srd is being slow. You use fabricate to make a big ass item?

Fabricate was just a silly idear :P.... I'm working off the Complete Warrior chart that uses weights as a damage scaler... and then I'm using Google to find the real life pound/cubic foot ratio of Granite (which was the assumed wall made... based on the fact that the Focus is a Granite stone)
Granted the Complete Warrior chart is for Improvised Weapons.... but I think throwing a Wall of Stone at someone would qualify for something like that ^.^

Edit:
This thing makes Fabricate Redundant
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire Make a perfect square from the start. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone Pebbles would work

I'll look for the Pounds/Cubic Foot for Iron....
#32

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 9:16:41
Tripple post
#33

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 9:17:48
Double post....
#34

admiral_morgan

Mar 21, 2008 9:39:01
You could use a Swiftlade. You get Freedom of Movement as an Extraordinary Ability, nice bonus to initiative (alway good in a challenge) and a lot of ability basend on Haste. Haste for you is Extraordinary so available in a Antimagic Field.
#35

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 9:41:58
You could use a Swiftlade. You get Freedom of Movement as an Extraordinary Ability, nice bonus to initiative (alway good in a challenge) and a lot of ability basend on Haste. Haste for you is Extraordinary so available in a Antimagic Field.

YES! Brilliant, I'd completely forgotten that.... and more on topic than squashing
people with Walls of Stone ....;)
#36

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 9:42:20
Well Violent Thrust (that way you could hurl several walls at the time... 15 to be precise) allows you to do an attack roll against them (BAB+Spellcasting Mod) get Greater Invisibility to flat foot them etc.... or use Sustained Force to drop a single wall on top of their head (nothing that specifies this is not possible.... just no entries to what happens either)


No reflex....



Fabricate was just a silly idear :P.... I'm working off the Complete Warrior chart that uses weights as a damage scaler... and then I'm using Google to find the real life pound/cubic foot ratio of Granite (which was the assumed wall made... based on the fact that the Focus is a Granite stone)
Granted the Complete Warrior chart is for Improvised Weapons.... but I think throwing a Wall of Stone at someone would qualify for something like that ^.^

Edit:
This thing makes Fabricate Redundant
Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire Make a perfect square from the start. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone Pebbles would work

I'll look for the Pounds/Cubic Foot for Iron....

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15395993#post15395993

I'm moving our discussion over here so that we don't derail this thread any more than we have. Sorry OP!
#37

neraagile

Mar 21, 2008 9:46:22
I'm moving our discussion over here so that we don't derail this thread any more than we have. Sorry OP!

Indeed, my sincerest apology for the interruption....
#38

sunic_flames

Mar 21, 2008 9:57:06
I'm seeing a lot of posts here that did not read mine.

Let's see...

Unless I'm missing something, AMF shuts off just about any spell that isn't Conjuration (Creation).

The AMF does shut off his own magic, except he doesn't have any as he was specifically built to counter my character. I can fly, it simply is a question of out maneuvering him. Which would be no problem whatsoever, except limited space.

Xorn Movement works, and would stall for a bit. However since it's a 5th level spell, it'd have to come from an item. Anything up to CL 13th could be crafted though. If it were 4th level or lower I could adapt it a lot easier via Spell Storing Item. Polymorph works, and could be SS Itemed. However, without Wilding Clasps on everything it absorbs all my gear - counterproductive.

IHS is not an option because as I already said ToB is not on my allowed sources. If it were I wouldn't need all that other stuff as as I said before, I could maul him in 2 rounds at his own game otherwise.

Prismatic Sphere is amusing, and will work in an AMF. Now if only someone will confirm/deny Reverse Gravity works in an AMF, we might have something brutal. He can fly because he has wings. Dragonborn. 40/average. I have 90/good. On an arena with a higher ceiling I could take advantage of the fact he cannot fly straight up and needs double movement to try.

I don't know why people keep suggesting Incantrix here. It doesn't do me any good.

Improved thrown weapon damage doesn't scale above club size. No Hulking Hurler nonsense, sorry.

Now I came up with three potential ways of handling the situation, none of which require adaption.

The most expensive, and most dramatic way is to buy a staff of twinned orb of fire. Can't craft this for the big discount, as I don't have that feat. Now, sudden maximize it. 180 damage (not a OHKO, but close), and 4 trivial saves. 2 to prevent death by massive damage, 2 to prevent death by losing a round of actions. Decent chance of a 1 there. Would work better with a javelin or two to soften him up, as that's 1d6+16 a shot. With sneak attack, even better. He only has 203... And it works anywhere within 55 feet. If I'm feeling especially evil I pay a bit more and get it enlarged, now having a 110 foot range.

The must brutal and efficient, but definitely overkill way is pounce. A wand of Lion's Charge allows adding to the Persist arsenal easily. Greatreach bracers let me attack outside the AMF. And even with absolute minimum damage and near worst case scenario... 51 minimum damage a hit. 4 hits. 204 is just barely high enough. And I'm not missing unless I roll 2 natural 1s, as the first in that full attack could just be rerolled. If I do miss once, he'll survive unless I crit him as even with sneak attack and max damage, not quite high enough.

The most amusing involves Bolas. Yes, Bolas. Not proficient, but it's a ranged touch attack. I can get the penalty with no consequence. For that matter I can eat that, along with the maximum range increment penalty and still hit on a 2. Without any sort of trip optimization, +13 modifier. I believe this is an ability check, so +1 circumstance/competence/luck from items and spells applies. +16.

He has +14, 10 from str and 4 from this being an obvious example of 'one size larger being beneficial to you'. So pretty good chance of success. Also does some minor non lethal damage to the tune of 1d4+16. A cheap Lesser Crystal of Return allows drawing as a free action ===> full attack. Once he goes down, switch to javelins for slightly more damage. Prone is +4 AC vs ranged, but I still hit on a 2.

When he goes down he has to waste a move action getting up as I don't think he has the ToB trip counter, and he can't get the MIC or CS trip counter. That means no move and attack, and no charge. Since I'm 50' away and he can only move 40', he can't get me in his threat range. He can get me in the AMF, but I can just move back out of it and repeat as often as is necessary. This allows for safe nickel and diming him to death.
#39

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 10:11:29
Dude, sounds like you totally have this under control. What are you worried for? ^^
#40

sunic_flames

Mar 21, 2008 10:36:25
Wasn't really. Just aiming for an invincible character, which means no humiliating weaknesses like that. Already have saves, AC, and touch AC covered, along with energy immunity just in case. Shield for Magic Missile, FoM castable if it ever comes up, Spell turning if I want to make his anti caster abilities even more embarrassing...

There isn't a whole lot that can affect him except a save DC *****, and a natural 1. Should have went with Pride on the cleric dip. Heh.

So let's shift this thread to discuss what other immunities I lack.

Normal attacks are minimal threats unless the to hit modifier is at least +32, in which case it has a > 5% chance of hitting. I still have room to improve this, but I need higher character level/caster level to do so as I can't upgrade my bracers to +8 for 1 level, law devotion for 2 levels, and the ghost ward ghost ward defending combo for 3 levels. And no, multiple defendings are not an option. Noone has that though. Also, +5 AC vs ranged, 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as I move 10 feet, and 20% miss chance vs everything. Not too shabby.

Touch AC is a little less stellar. The safe zone only extends to +19. +20 or higher = > 5% chance to hit. Of course most of these are ranged, see above. A wraithstriker that got the drop on me would be problematic as it's more a mirror match type thing. Probably can't be helped too much, but at least most of the AC boosts I could potentially employ will also help this. Suppose if it were really a problem Polymorph + Scintillating Scales would cover it.

For saves, the safe zone extends up to +29 for Fortitude and Will, and +27 for Reflex. Anything higher than that will not pass on a 2. With everyone 12-13, this is quite sound. It too have room for improvement in the form of inherent bonuses as well as morale bonuses from Conviction. Most reflex stuff is direct damage, which means I can just become immune to its element as an immediate action if it bothers me. :P

Also, if someone made a save DC junkie I could counter with Ruin Delver's Fortune for a +5* Luck bonus to the save and another benefit.

* - +6, but overlaps Luckstone = +5 net gain.

I'm immune to magic missile, so not concerned about it.

Also immune to precision damage and critical hits, so no death by luck, or a currently nonexistent sneaky type.

I don't need to worry about Wish or Miracle, because they're banned. Also noone throwing out high CL Holy Word/Word of Chaos for the same reason.

Grapples, I could either FoM in the prep if they bugged me, Bolt Shirt out if I can't do that, or more likely just beat them at their own game. Polymorph into an Annis Hag alone would make 9 points of difference on the grapple modifier as well as get around the nat 20 only AoO.

Anything else? Remember the source book list I stated. If I could get other stuff I'd just get ESA and use it on AMF. Then I'm immune to just about any magic not Conjuration (Creation).
#41

nntp

Mar 21, 2008 10:39:01
I still think stalling until he loses rage is better than fighting him raged.

Control Winds basically freezes him at one end of the arena. He has to make a DC 30 Fort Save every turn to avoid being blown back down to the end. Turn that end of the arena to Lava with Transmute Rock to Lava. Win.

If you don't want to Transmute Rock to lava, you can then melee at will from outside the winds with your reach. Take in a masterwork reach weapon sized for large size using shrink item, dispel the shrink, and Enlarge Person yourself for even more reach possibly?

Reverse Gravity doesn't work on flying creatures. Everyone who posted it forgot about the wings from Dragonborn.
#42

sunic_flames

Mar 21, 2008 10:44:18
At which point I've spent two staves just to fight him, and he still passes the save 50% of the time.

Large works, and sizing covers the weapon. Though, with Enlarge wouldn't it just grow with me naturally? I don't think it does with Polymorph though, which is why I spent 1,875 gp on sizing.

I think I've pretty much got fighting him. Now let's discuss build weaknesses in general. Aside from the obvious getting stuck in an AMF.
#43

w00tmanx

Mar 21, 2008 10:58:05
At which point I've spent two staves just to fight him, and he still passes the save 50% of the time.

Large works, and sizing covers the weapon. Though, with Enlarge wouldn't it just grow with me naturally? I don't think it does with Polymorph though, which is why I spent 1,875 gp on sizing.

I think I've pretty much got fighting him. Now let's discuss build weaknesses in general. Aside from the obvious getting stuck in an AMF.

You aren't going to get stuck in an AMF so you're fine. Get 8 shrink itemed Tower shields and once he comes within range, his AMF dispels the shrink and BAMMO! You've got total cover from his AMF. Poke your head around one of them to get Line of Effect to him and blast his fuggin brains out. Or go with minor creation+fabricate to makeshift yourself a little hut with a tiny window. Again, a 10-ft emanation AMF centered on him is the least of your worries.
#44

sunic_flames

Mar 21, 2008 11:19:37
Yes, I've got that part. Though I'm not sure how you'd stop the Tower Shields from just falling over. Now, about patching weaknesses in general if any... ideas?

AMF discussion is covered and done. I don't have to worry about it anymore.