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Gishes in the low levels

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
necroramo
Apr 07, 2008 18:25:32 Most good gish builds kick butt in the later levels. However, it's the early levels that make me wince most of the time, and I'm wondering how it's possible to make a living as a gish in those days.

I'm playing in a level 4 (maybe 5, the DM hasn't given us exp for plowing through a medium-sized dungeon yet) group, and one of our group died. She requested something that could hold its own in combat and be "pretty" with a good Charisma score - so I thought gish. All books are allowed etc., but it's all at the DM's approval. Anyway, I see the builds that are all fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/stuff etc. (since I'm already playing an evil DFA for the fivefold breath much much later [I guess I was really optimistic one day, but the character still stands], I either commit hari-kiri or paladin is out), and I'm wondering how you get through the sorcerer 6 when you're supposed to get all the gishy spells and you already (probably) have some sort of combat-oriented levels, but you're squishy with your d4's and have a fun BAB.

I'm contemplating doing a simple battlesorcerer thing (which seems to hold its own regardless of level), but I know that's generally worse in the end. What do you guys think I should do?
#2
andyjames
Apr 07, 2008 18:35:37
Most good gish builds kick butt in the later levels. However, it's the early levels that make me wince most of the time, and I'm wondering how it's possible to make a living as a gish in those days.

I'm playing in a level 4 (maybe 5, the DM hasn't given us exp for plowing through a medium-sized dungeon yet) group, and one of our group died. She requested something that could hold its own in combat and be "pretty" with a good Charisma score - so I thought gish. All books are allowed etc., but it's all at the DM's approval. Anyway, I see the builds that are all fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/stuff etc. (since I'm already playing an evil DFA for the fivefold breath much much later [I guess I was really optimistic one day, but the character still stands], I either commit hari-kiri or paladin is out), and I'm wondering how you get through the sorcerer 6 when you're supposed to get all the gishy spells and you already (probably) have some sort of combat-oriented levels, but you're squishy with your d4's and have a fun BAB.

I'm contemplating doing a simple battlesorcerer thing, but I know that's generally worse. What do you guys think I should do?

Well, it really depends on what you want. Do you want heavy fighter or heavy caster? If caster, do you want heavy blaster or battlefield control or buffing?

Duskblade is a fairly good Int-based blaster gish all by itself.

If you want less blasting, then Swashbuckler might be better than Fighter (4 skill pt, free Weapon Finesse which might be the same as a bonus Fighter feat, depending on what you are taking for the Fighter bonus feat). After that, levels of Sorcerer or Warmage or Dread Necro would work. Warmage would bring you back to blaster heavy again, while Dread Necro would work fine with Tomb Tainted Soul to give you a self-healing gish.

Generally, a fairly good combo is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7
#3
phaedrusxy
Apr 07, 2008 18:37:04 Use a guisarme, take Enlarge Person and False Life, and trip/disarm people. Ftr1/Sorc6 isn't that squishy. True Strike can give you an "autowin" on a disarm check against most things. False Life can be cast before you put your armor on, and True Strike has no somatic components. For enlarge person... you might want to get a wand, scrolls, etc. But in that case, you might not take it as a spell known.
#4
andyjames
Apr 07, 2008 18:39:58
Use a guisarme, take Enlarge Person and False Life, and trip/disarm people. Ftr1/Sorc6 isn't that squishy. True Strike can give you an "autowin" on a disarm check against most things. False Life can be cast before you put your armor on, and True Strike has no somatic components. For enlarge person... you might want to get a wand, scrolls, etc. But in that case, you might not take it as a spell known.

Doesn't TS discharge after the first attack, which is your touch attack roll to disarm, not the actual disarm opposed check?
#5
grundle
Apr 07, 2008 18:45:03 One option that would fit the criteria she requested is an Inspire Courage Bard. She could get Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost spell and the Words of Creation feat and have +5 to attack and damage. Good party support, lots of flavor, Cha-based casting, check out Dragonfire Inspiration and TWF for combat capability.

check out this thread for more details:
Bard Inspire Courage Optimization

From there you could do the typical sublime chord/virtuoso thing. Or, Song of the White Raven with Crusader levels, or Initiate of Milil to stack with Paladin levels.

Alternatively, Binders are Cha-based and somewhat "gishy."

Binder 15/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 or Binder 12 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 3
#6
necroramo
Apr 07, 2008 18:59:08 I was actually thinking of doing the fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/AC 5/sacred exorcist 4... so, she's fighter 1/sorcerer 3 (or 4) right now. This is the big one, as it determines whether she's going to get 2nd-level spells (and thus Pwnstrike or Impenetrable Fortress Self). If you were playing a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or a fighter 1/sorcerer 4, what would your strategies be (do list for both)?

For the former, I would go fist of stone (maybe shield if its back to back encounters?) and of course Mage Armor and hope for the best. For the latter, I'm thinking of going in as a Crucian along with my mage armor, because I only have so many 2nd level spells per day at Sorc 4 and Wraithstrike is only one round. Divine Companion also appears attractive to me at this time. The feats I'm thinking are:

(She'd like an Illumian because she thinks Neraphim are ugly [I do too])
AFB for sigil names, but the one for Strength to bonus spells!
1: Power Attack (for Pwnstrike)
1: EWP (Spiked Chain)
3: Practiced Spellcaster

Sound good?
#7
x-codes
Apr 07, 2008 19:00:13
Doesn't TS discharge after the first attack, which is your touch attack roll to disarm, not the actual disarm opposed check?

There isn't a touch attack.

Also, there are SO many ways to boost your HP in the early levels. With 10 Con, you're already at 10+2.5*6 (25) HP on average. Add in False Life for another 1d10+6, a Toad Familiar for another 3, and a Con bonus of +2 and you're up to 53 HP on average, plus you can re-cast your False Life between battles (it takes only 2 minutes to take off light armor and put it back on again, 1.5 if you have help).

Also, your BAB might be one below medium at this point, but you also have a number of buffs such as Bull's Strength, Heroism, and Enlarge Person that increase your damage output, meaning that you're at least comparable to a given medium BAB character.

Finally there is AC. Studded Leather, Shield, Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil, and possibly even Dragonskin all contribute to keeping you alive against enemy combatants. Your AC should be comparable to the BSF's when it needs to be, even if it's lower most of the time.
#8
davethemagicweasel
Apr 07, 2008 19:11:47 Bard gishes level pretty well, e.g:

Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 8

Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 8

Otherwise, as X-Codes said, buff yourself up, and function as a secondary melee combatant with a reach weapon. Alter Self alone can make for a competitive AC.
#9
ninjarabbit
Apr 07, 2008 19:15:08 battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8 is a good gish build from levels 1-20. You don't lose caster levels (thus getting your spells earlier) and you don't have to burn a feat on practiced spellcaster.

Another build I like is Duskblade3/fighter1/wizard2/abjurantchampion5/spellsword1/eldritchknight8. You only lose 1 BAB and are comparable to warrior classes from levels 1-20.
#10
irwing
Apr 07, 2008 19:15:31 Something interesting and overlooked might be a

Bard 1 / Druid 4 / Combat Medic 4 / Dragonslayer 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Feats:
H: Able Learner
1: Dodge
3: Combat Casting
6: Iron Will

It's basically a druid without wildshape starting from level two (so he gets level 2 spells at level 4, level 3 spells at level 6, etc... just like a Sorcerer... so he's not very much behind in spell progression unlike most gishes), plus he can be the party face too, party healer (combat medic helps), skill monkey, generic utility caster (thanks to UMD) and he gets most bardic goodies too (Inspire Courage comes to mind).
You could take Zen Archery too and make a good archer... it can be just everything, really... and casting spells as a level 19 Druid at level 20 makes it playable for your whole adventuring career.
Plus, it doesn't exploit any obscure mechanic or cheesy qualification method.
#11
x-codes
Apr 07, 2008 19:16:00
I was actually thinking of doing the fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/AC 5/sacred exorcist 4... so, she's fighter 1/sorcerer 3 (or 4) right now. This is the big one, as it determines whether she's going to get 2nd-level spells (and thus Pwnstrike or Impenetrable Fortress Self). If you were playing a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or a fighter 1/sorcerer 4, what would your strategies be (do list for both)?

For the former, I would go fist of stone (maybe shield if its back to back encounters?) and hope for the best. For the latter, I'm thinking of going in as a Crucian, because I only have so many 2nd level spells at Sorc 4 and Wraithstrike is only one round. Sound good?

Grease and Fist of Stone both have pros/cons, but Shield and True Strike are definitely staples. Throwing in Parching Touch (Sandstorm) and combining that with Fist of Stone's Slam attack can be an effective combo early on (2d6+1.5x strength bonus+1 Con damage and fatigue), but it also combines well with Grease, since most monsters will lose their Dex bonus to AC from balancing as well as their Armor bonuses because of the touch attack. Enlarge Person is also good, but should definitely be put on a Wand, and maybe Mage Armor too if you choose to forego light armor.

For spells later on, Alter Self is amazing, and next level you really need the HP given by False Life. Wraithstrike can come later, you won't have to wait long. Your first 3rd-level spell is easily Haste, while your second is a toss up between Heroism and Displacement. Around this time also look for an Eternal Wand of Greater Mage Armor. It's fairly cheap and very effective.
#12
necroramo
Apr 07, 2008 19:33:09 I never really "got" Truestrike. I remember my first attempt at a gish, where I just made a battlesorcerer 3 and I thought I was so good because I was going to Truestrike a dire bat to death. Great, I basically auto-hit, but I only attack every other round. I wasn't Aeshkrauing (Aeshkrau is the strength to bonus spells, right?), so my strength was really interesting and so was my overall damage. By the time that power attack is making up for the your damage per round being cut in two, you're already moved on to bigger, better, wraithstrikier things? What am I missing here?

At this point, if battlesorcerer/AC looks good, it's definitely better than a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or 4 right now, and I don't want this character crumpling any time soon because this girl has had a rather high character mortality rate and she's expressed discontent at this. I'm thinking don't go stalwart, because those second level spells RULE and if we're level 5 I can have one right now.

So, here's my build progression in progress as I'm working on this:

battle sorcerer 7/AC 5/battle sorc 8

Illumian Aeshkrau dude

1: Arcane Strike
3: Power Attack
6: Combat Casting (prereq)
9: Leap Attack
12: Robilar's Pwnage (will use in conjunction with the combat reflexes vest and a high-dex Morph)
15: Quicken
18: Minor Shapeshift

What should I take to fill in those last two feats? I've heard a lot in favor of the Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike route, but I fail to see how this works well with gishes. I'm thinking maybe because it doesn't matter too much if you're polymorphed into some form of death incarnate, but am I right?

I'll worry about all my spells ever later, but I'm thinking right now (assuming level 5):

Cantrips: I don't really care
1: Mage Armor, Shield, either Nerveskitter or Truestrike
2: Alter Self!
#13
ninjarabbit
Apr 07, 2008 19:39:47 True strike is okay if you can quicken it and want to land one big power attack-maxxed megahit like a leap attack. Not every enemy has a huge armor and natural armor bonus that wraithstrike takes advantage of ..... like a monk.
#14
grundle
Apr 07, 2008 19:45:55 if you're going with spiked chain, why not get imp trip and combat reflexes or standstill? Otherwise, just go with a bludgeoning weapon for Greater Mighty Wallop and skip the EWP.
#15
necroramo
Apr 07, 2008 20:09:49 Interesting. If I axe the Chain, I have one more feat slot that I don't know what to do with. However, if I keep the chain and go Stand Still, I'm going to want to take that feat right away to maximize my use of the chain. That combined with combat reflexes means I either delay entry into AC (Do I want to?) or wait till level 12 until I get the Big Gun, Power Attack. Since I'm concerned about Power Attack, I'm really leaning toward to ditching the Chain, especially since my DFA has battlefield control covered. So, what do I do with my three feats (one of which is at level uno)?
#16
x-codes
Apr 07, 2008 20:14:36
True strike is okay if you can quicken it and want to land one big power attack-maxxed megahit like a leap attack. Not every enemy has a huge armor and natural armor bonus that wraithstrike takes advantage of ..... like a monk.

Not to mention that it has no Somatic component. True Strike is great for disarming, quickening, fusing, and power attacking. While Wraithstrike is a swift action, it's only good for power attacking.
#17
necroramo
Apr 07, 2008 21:10:12 I revised my feats somewhat.

I'm more focused on the power attack and less on the other things simply because of the ability pre-reqs. We're playing a mediocre 26-point-buy and I have just enough room to make Strength and Constitution good, Charisma high enough for me to hit 9th level spells later (Aeshkrau takes care of the rest that is relevant), and Dex and Int not in the negatives (I feel I can take the hit to my good save). Otherwise I'd definitely look into the trip/disarm/fun that you guys have suggested....

Are the feats as I have them good?
#18
bergtann
Apr 08, 2008 2:24:46 For Battle Sorcerer, I'd definitly aim for a 1 level Sand Shaper dip. That might even make Stalwarth Sorcerer an option.

Try to get one of the bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium too.
#19
grundle
Apr 08, 2008 8:13:02 move arcane strike way up. its your main shtick
#20
Senevri
Apr 08, 2008 9:18:59 ...Snowflake Wardance Bardader?
#21
irwing
Apr 08, 2008 9:36:05 No love for the Fochlucan? :|
#22
davethemagicweasel
Apr 08, 2008 11:17:10
No love for the Fochlucan? :|

Not at low levels there ain't.
#23
vicen_korel
Apr 08, 2008 12:24:12 Don't forget you can swap out spells as you get to higher levels. Also battle Sorc gives a D8 medium BAB progression light armor with no ASF and sorcerer based spells gained. Granted you'll have to wait extra levels to get more than one spell for each spell level but it's not too bad. The extra BAB qualifies you for more PrC's earlier.

A low level build that worked well for me once:

Battle Sorcerer (UA), Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) (take both for base 10 HP at 1st)
Human
1st level: Heighten Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Fiery Burst, Icy Blast
3rd level: Shadow Veil

Human Paragon (levels 5-7)
6th level: Arcane Disciple (healing)
Bonus Feat: Healing Touch (reserve feat from CC)

Spells Known: oth -- Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Detect Magic,
1st -- Shield, darkness, Fist of Stone
2nd -- Sourching Ray
3rd -- Cure Serious Wounds

All your Reserve Feats work at 3rd spell level becuase of the heighten spell (i.e. spontaneous access to heighten Ray of Frost gives you a third level ice spell, same for scourching ray and fiery burst, darkness for shadow veil, etc).

you have:
+5 BAB light armor 7d8 HD +2 to a random stat, your reserve feats can be used regardless of just about everything as they are supernatural effects (no spell failure, no spell resistance, no AoO, just stay out of anti-magic fields), never run and have good save throws for your level.
#24
norgerber
Apr 08, 2008 13:11:56 You might consider a Glaivelock as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 necroramo Apr 07, 2008 18:25:32	Most good gish builds kick butt in the later levels. However, it's the early levels that make me wince most of the time, and I'm wondering how it's possible to make a living as a gish in those days. I'm playing in a level 4 (maybe 5, the DM hasn't given us exp for plowing through a medium-sized dungeon yet) group, and one of our group died. She requested something that could hold its own in combat and be "pretty" with a good Charisma score - so I thought gish. All books are allowed etc., but it's all at the DM's approval. Anyway, I see the builds that are all fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/stuff etc. (since I'm already playing an evil DFA for the fivefold breath much much later [I guess I was really optimistic one day, but the character still stands], I either commit hari-kiri or paladin is out), and I'm wondering how you get through the sorcerer 6 when you're supposed to get all the gishy spells and you already (probably) have some sort of combat-oriented levels, but you're squishy with your d4's and have a fun BAB. I'm contemplating doing a simple battlesorcerer thing (which seems to hold its own regardless of level), but I know that's generally worse in the end. What do you guys think I should do?
#2 andyjames Apr 07, 2008 18:35:37	Most good gish builds kick butt in the later levels. However, it's the early levels that make me wince most of the time, and I'm wondering how it's possible to make a living as a gish in those days. I'm playing in a level 4 (maybe 5, the DM hasn't given us exp for plowing through a medium-sized dungeon yet) group, and one of our group died. She requested something that could hold its own in combat and be "pretty" with a good Charisma score - so I thought gish. All books are allowed etc., but it's all at the DM's approval. Anyway, I see the builds that are all fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/stuff etc. (since I'm already playing an evil DFA for the fivefold breath much much later [I guess I was really optimistic one day, but the character still stands], I either commit hari-kiri or paladin is out), and I'm wondering how you get through the sorcerer 6 when you're supposed to get all the gishy spells and you already (probably) have some sort of combat-oriented levels, but you're squishy with your d4's and have a fun BAB. I'm contemplating doing a simple battlesorcerer thing, but I know that's generally worse. What do you guys think I should do? Well, it really depends on what you want. Do you want heavy fighter or heavy caster? If caster, do you want heavy blaster or battlefield control or buffing? Duskblade is a fairly good Int-based blaster gish all by itself. If you want less blasting, then Swashbuckler might be better than Fighter (4 skill pt, free Weapon Finesse which might be the same as a bonus Fighter feat, depending on what you are taking for the Fighter bonus feat). After that, levels of Sorcerer or Warmage or Dread Necro would work. Warmage would bring you back to blaster heavy again, while Dread Necro would work fine with Tomb Tainted Soul to give you a self-healing gish. Generally, a fairly good combo is Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7
#3 phaedrusxy Apr 07, 2008 18:37:04	Use a guisarme, take Enlarge Person and False Life, and trip/disarm people. Ftr1/Sorc6 isn't that squishy. True Strike can give you an "autowin" on a disarm check against most things. False Life can be cast before you put your armor on, and True Strike has no somatic components. For enlarge person... you might want to get a wand, scrolls, etc. But in that case, you might not take it as a spell known.
#4 andyjames Apr 07, 2008 18:39:58	Use a guisarme, take Enlarge Person and False Life, and trip/disarm people. Ftr1/Sorc6 isn't that squishy. True Strike can give you an "autowin" on a disarm check against most things. False Life can be cast before you put your armor on, and True Strike has no somatic components. For enlarge person... you might want to get a wand, scrolls, etc. But in that case, you might not take it as a spell known. Doesn't TS discharge after the first attack, which is your touch attack roll to disarm, not the actual disarm opposed check?
#5 grundle Apr 07, 2008 18:45:03	One option that would fit the criteria she requested is an Inspire Courage Bard. She could get Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, Inspirational Boost spell and the Words of Creation feat and have +5 to attack and damage. Good party support, lots of flavor, Cha-based casting, check out Dragonfire Inspiration and TWF for combat capability. check out this thread for more details: Bard Inspire Courage Optimization From there you could do the typical sublime chord/virtuoso thing. Or, Song of the White Raven with Crusader levels, or Initiate of Milil to stack with Paladin levels. Alternatively, Binders are Cha-based and somewhat "gishy." Binder 15/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 or Binder 12 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 3
#6 necroramo Apr 07, 2008 18:59:08	I was actually thinking of doing the fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/AC 5/sacred exorcist 4... so, she's fighter 1/sorcerer 3 (or 4) right now. This is the big one, as it determines whether she's going to get 2nd-level spells (and thus Pwnstrike or Impenetrable Fortress Self). If you were playing a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or a fighter 1/sorcerer 4, what would your strategies be (do list for both)? For the former, I would go fist of stone (maybe shield if its back to back encounters?) and of course Mage Armor and hope for the best. For the latter, I'm thinking of going in as a Crucian along with my mage armor, because I only have so many 2nd level spells per day at Sorc 4 and Wraithstrike is only one round. Divine Companion also appears attractive to me at this time. The feats I'm thinking are: (She'd like an Illumian because she thinks Neraphim are ugly [I do too]) AFB for sigil names, but the one for Strength to bonus spells! 1: Power Attack (for Pwnstrike) 1: EWP (Spiked Chain) 3: Practiced Spellcaster Sound good?
#7 x-codes Apr 07, 2008 19:00:13	Doesn't TS discharge after the first attack, which is your touch attack roll to disarm, not the actual disarm opposed check? There isn't a touch attack. Also, there are SO many ways to boost your HP in the early levels. With 10 Con, you're already at 10+2.5*6 (25) HP on average. Add in False Life for another 1d10+6, a Toad Familiar for another 3, and a Con bonus of +2 and you're up to 53 HP on average, plus you can re-cast your False Life between battles (it takes only 2 minutes to take off light armor and put it back on again, 1.5 if you have help). Also, your BAB might be one below medium at this point, but you also have a number of buffs such as Bull's Strength, Heroism, and Enlarge Person that increase your damage output, meaning that you're at least comparable to a given medium BAB character. Finally there is AC. Studded Leather, Shield, Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil, and possibly even Dragonskin all contribute to keeping you alive against enemy combatants. Your AC should be comparable to the BSF's when it needs to be, even if it's lower most of the time.
#8 davethemagicweasel Apr 07, 2008 19:11:47	Bard gishes level pretty well, e.g: Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 8 Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 8 Otherwise, as X-Codes said, buff yourself up, and function as a secondary melee combatant with a reach weapon. Alter Self alone can make for a competitive AC.
#9 ninjarabbit Apr 07, 2008 19:15:08	battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion5/battlesorcerer8 is a good gish build from levels 1-20. You don't lose caster levels (thus getting your spells earlier) and you don't have to burn a feat on practiced spellcaster. Another build I like is Duskblade3/fighter1/wizard2/abjurantchampion5/spellsword1/eldritchknight8. You only lose 1 BAB and are comparable to warrior classes from levels 1-20.
#10 irwing Apr 07, 2008 19:15:31	Something interesting and overlooked might be a Bard 1 / Druid 4 / Combat Medic 4 / Dragonslayer 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Feats: H: Able Learner 1: Dodge 3: Combat Casting 6: Iron Will It's basically a druid without wildshape starting from level two (so he gets level 2 spells at level 4, level 3 spells at level 6, etc... just like a Sorcerer... so he's not very much behind in spell progression unlike most gishes), plus he can be the party face too, party healer (combat medic helps), skill monkey, generic utility caster (thanks to UMD) and he gets most bardic goodies too (Inspire Courage comes to mind). You could take Zen Archery too and make a good archer... it can be just everything, really... and casting spells as a level 19 Druid at level 20 makes it playable for your whole adventuring career. Plus, it doesn't exploit any obscure mechanic or cheesy qualification method.
#11 x-codes Apr 07, 2008 19:16:00	I was actually thinking of doing the fighter 1/sorcerer 6/spellsword 1/swiftblade 3/AC 5/sacred exorcist 4... so, she's fighter 1/sorcerer 3 (or 4) right now. This is the big one, as it determines whether she's going to get 2nd-level spells (and thus Pwnstrike or Impenetrable Fortress Self). If you were playing a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or a fighter 1/sorcerer 4, what would your strategies be (do list for both)? For the former, I would go fist of stone (maybe shield if its back to back encounters?) and hope for the best. For the latter, I'm thinking of going in as a Crucian, because I only have so many 2nd level spells at Sorc 4 and Wraithstrike is only one round. Sound good? Grease and Fist of Stone both have pros/cons, but Shield and True Strike are definitely staples. Throwing in Parching Touch (Sandstorm) and combining that with Fist of Stone's Slam attack can be an effective combo early on (2d6+1.5x strength bonus+1 Con damage and fatigue), but it also combines well with Grease, since most monsters will lose their Dex bonus to AC from balancing as well as their Armor bonuses because of the touch attack. Enlarge Person is also good, but should definitely be put on a Wand, and maybe Mage Armor too if you choose to forego light armor. For spells later on, Alter Self is amazing, and next level you really need the HP given by False Life. Wraithstrike can come later, you won't have to wait long. Your first 3rd-level spell is easily Haste, while your second is a toss up between Heroism and Displacement. Around this time also look for an Eternal Wand of Greater Mage Armor. It's fairly cheap and very effective.
#12 necroramo Apr 07, 2008 19:33:09	I never really "got" Truestrike. I remember my first attempt at a gish, where I just made a battlesorcerer 3 and I thought I was so good because I was going to Truestrike a dire bat to death. Great, I basically auto-hit, but I only attack every other round. I wasn't Aeshkrauing (Aeshkrau is the strength to bonus spells, right?), so my strength was really interesting and so was my overall damage. By the time that power attack is making up for the your damage per round being cut in two, you're already moved on to bigger, better, wraithstrikier things? What am I missing here? At this point, if battlesorcerer/AC looks good, it's definitely better than a fighter 1/sorcerer 3 or 4 right now, and I don't want this character crumpling any time soon because this girl has had a rather high character mortality rate and she's expressed discontent at this. I'm thinking don't go stalwart, because those second level spells RULE and if we're level 5 I can have one right now. So, here's my build progression in progress as I'm working on this: battle sorcerer 7/AC 5/battle sorc 8 Illumian Aeshkrau dude 1: Arcane Strike 3: Power Attack 6: Combat Casting (prereq) 9: Leap Attack 12: Robilar's Pwnage (will use in conjunction with the combat reflexes vest and a high-dex Morph) 15: Quicken 18: Minor Shapeshift What should I take to fill in those last two feats? I've heard a lot in favor of the Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike route, but I fail to see how this works well with gishes. I'm thinking maybe because it doesn't matter too much if you're polymorphed into some form of death incarnate, but am I right? I'll worry about all my spells ever later, but I'm thinking right now (assuming level 5): Cantrips: I don't really care 1: Mage Armor, Shield, either Nerveskitter or Truestrike 2: Alter Self!
#13 ninjarabbit Apr 07, 2008 19:39:47	True strike is okay if you can quicken it and want to land one big power attack-maxxed megahit like a leap attack. Not every enemy has a huge armor and natural armor bonus that wraithstrike takes advantage of ..... like a monk.
#14 grundle Apr 07, 2008 19:45:55	if you're going with spiked chain, why not get imp trip and combat reflexes or standstill? Otherwise, just go with a bludgeoning weapon for Greater Mighty Wallop and skip the EWP.
#15 necroramo Apr 07, 2008 20:09:49	Interesting. If I axe the Chain, I have one more feat slot that I don't know what to do with. However, if I keep the chain and go Stand Still, I'm going to want to take that feat right away to maximize my use of the chain. That combined with combat reflexes means I either delay entry into AC (Do I want to?) or wait till level 12 until I get the Big Gun, Power Attack. Since I'm concerned about Power Attack, I'm really leaning toward to ditching the Chain, especially since my DFA has battlefield control covered. So, what do I do with my three feats (one of which is at level uno)?
#16 x-codes Apr 07, 2008 20:14:36	True strike is okay if you can quicken it and want to land one big power attack-maxxed megahit like a leap attack. Not every enemy has a huge armor and natural armor bonus that wraithstrike takes advantage of ..... like a monk. Not to mention that it has no Somatic component. True Strike is great for disarming, quickening, fusing, and power attacking. While Wraithstrike is a swift action, it's only good for power attacking.
#17 necroramo Apr 07, 2008 21:10:12	I revised my feats somewhat. I'm more focused on the power attack and less on the other things simply because of the ability pre-reqs. We're playing a mediocre 26-point-buy and I have just enough room to make Strength and Constitution good, Charisma high enough for me to hit 9th level spells later (Aeshkrau takes care of the rest that is relevant), and Dex and Int not in the negatives (I feel I can take the hit to my good save). Otherwise I'd definitely look into the trip/disarm/fun that you guys have suggested.... Are the feats as I have them good?
#18 bergtann Apr 08, 2008 2:24:46	For Battle Sorcerer, I'd definitly aim for a 1 level Sand Shaper dip. That might even make Stalwarth Sorcerer an option. Try to get one of the bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium too.
#19 grundle Apr 08, 2008 8:13:02	move arcane strike way up. its your main shtick
#20 Senevri Apr 08, 2008 9:18:59	...Snowflake Wardance Bardader?
#21 irwing Apr 08, 2008 9:36:05	No love for the Fochlucan? :\|
#22 davethemagicweasel Apr 08, 2008 11:17:10	No love for the Fochlucan? :\| Not at low levels there ain't.
#23 vicen_korel Apr 08, 2008 12:24:12	Don't forget you can swap out spells as you get to higher levels. Also battle Sorc gives a D8 medium BAB progression light armor with no ASF and sorcerer based spells gained. Granted you'll have to wait extra levels to get more than one spell for each spell level but it's not too bad. The extra BAB qualifies you for more PrC's earlier. A low level build that worked well for me once: Battle Sorcerer (UA), Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) (take both for base 10 HP at 1st) Human 1st level: Heighten Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Fiery Burst, Icy Blast 3rd level: Shadow Veil Human Paragon (levels 5-7) 6th level: Arcane Disciple (healing) Bonus Feat: Healing Touch (reserve feat from CC) Spells Known: oth -- Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Detect Magic, 1st -- Shield, darkness, Fist of Stone 2nd -- Sourching Ray 3rd -- Cure Serious Wounds All your Reserve Feats work at 3rd spell level becuase of the heighten spell (i.e. spontaneous access to heighten Ray of Frost gives you a third level ice spell, same for scourching ray and fiery burst, darkness for shadow veil, etc). you have: +5 BAB light armor 7d8 HD +2 to a random stat, your reserve feats can be used regardless of just about everything as they are supernatural effects (no spell failure, no spell resistance, no AoO, just stay out of anti-magic fields), never run and have good save throws for your level.
#24 norgerber Apr 08, 2008 13:11:56	You might consider a Glaivelock as well.