Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 illithid13 Sep 10, 2008 21:15:54	There are 2 questions in this post. 1: Are there any new materiels (3.5ed) that came out in the past 2 years that are a "must have" for characters that are tweeked/optimized? Ebboron materal is welcome. Additionally, have there been any good flaver books as well? I've been out of the loop for the past 2 years and have some catching up to do. 2: Now the core of this post. I'm thinking of making a character to join a friend's game, he approved a gishtalt character and I was thinking of going with a support fighter//magic user combo (psionics allowed but no incarnum). I was thinking of going with a monk as the supprot fighter class, possibly taking a monk friendly PrC later. My thought on the "caster type" was a cleric Wisdom being one of their class stats. My question is this, is the cleric a awesome, good, mediocer, crummy, or horibal choice for character optimization? If it is less than good, can you possibly recomend one that might work better? Thanks!
#2 kurashu Sep 10, 2008 21:58:47	Complete Champion is good. Hm, my concept of time is pretty bad, but Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic (the first section, only, really) are awesome. Hm. Heroes of Horror. Uuuuhhhh....Iunno. A fighter//mage combo? Archivist 20/Warblade 20 Intelligence all the way, plus good saves, all divine spells ever, manuevers, tons of ways to exploit knowledge checks, exand that with Knowledge Devotion.
#3 bruceleeroy Sep 10, 2008 22:01:54	I think you mean gestalt. In any case, a gestalt Monk/Cleric isn't too bad an idea. Clerics dominate everything but a well-prepared wizard. Monks...well, they're tough to kill. See if you can use sanctified spells out of Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a cheesy, broken book that most DMs don't allow, but it has Luminous Armor, Greater. Which, for a Monk/Cleric is amazing. Maximize your armor class. That means taking Combat Expertise, maxing your wisdom, being able to cast either Luminous Armor or Mage armor (Force domain), having a high dex and taking the Spell domain (I think) to get Anyspell, which will let you alter self into any number of wonderful creatures with amazing Natural Armor. If you take the Otherworldly feat from...Players Guide to Faerun, I think, your type changes to outsider and opens up a huge amount of awesome alter self shapes. Also... you might want to consider using Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell. Then persist alter self, divine power, etc. DMM: Persist is what makes a Cleric nearly all-powerful.
#4 illithid13 Sep 10, 2008 22:34:58	Complete Champion is good. Hm, my concept of time is pretty bad, but Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic (the first section, only, really) are awesome. Hm. Heroes of Horror. Uuuuhhhh....Iunno. A fighter//mage combo? Archivist 20/Warblade 20 Intelligence all the way, plus good saves, all divine spells ever, manuevers, tons of ways to exploit knowledge checks, exand that with Knowledge Devotion. Complete champion i think was just slated to come out when I went AWAL from gaming. I have the other 2 mentioned. I'm not quite fimilar with archivist, where is that found? while you're at it, warblade is kind of fimilar, but I'm not able to put my finger on it so if you could tell me where that is found as well, i'd be greatful.
#5 natenate Sep 10, 2008 23:56:50	Archivist is in Heroes of Horror, fully detailed in the excerpt. Warblade is from Tome of Battle. If you want to go Monk with Arcane spellcasting, use Sorcerer and take the feat Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer. It switches your Wis bonus to AC for your Cha bonus to AC. Cleric/Monk is still a superb combination though, definitely a stronger spellcasting choice than Sorcerer.
#6 Senevri Sep 11, 2008 8:15:32	1: Are there any new materiels (3.5ed) that came out in the past 2 years that are a "must have" for characters that are tweeked/optimized? Ebboron materal is welcome. Additionally, have there been any good flaver books as well? I've been out of the loop for the past 2 years and have some catching up to do. Optimized for what, Basket Weaving? Complete Champion was nice and had some breakable stuff in it, too. And what year did ToB come out, again? 2: Now the core of this post. I'm thinking of making a character to join a friend's game, he approved a gishtalt character and I was thinking of going with a support fighter//magic user combo (psionics allowed but no incarnum). I was thinking of going with a monk as the supprot fighter class, possibly taking a monk friendly PrC later. My thought on the "caster type" was a cleric Wisdom being one of their class stats. Gishtalt? A portmanteau of Gish and Gestalt? On the plus side, it made me check out this post. On the minus side, I'm immensely annoyed by people misspelling things they presumably have _read_, not _heard_ in the first place. My question is this, is the cleric a awesome, good, mediocer, crummy, or horibal choice for character optimization? If it is less than good, can you possibly recomend one that might work better? Cleric = Awesome. Gestalt, however, means that you can drop some stuff from one side to gain stuff on the other for no penalties. So... Cloistered Cleric/Contemplative on one side, Crusader/RKV on the other. You can even get decent Unarmed Strikes in if you like. Monk/Cleric is also nice since Cleric buffs eliminate Monk's weaknesses, pretty much. Then there's Shadow Sun Ninja...
#7 illithid13 Sep 11, 2008 8:47:47	Gishtalt? A portmanteau of Gish and Gestalt? On the plus side, it made me check out this post. On the minus side, I'm immensely annoyed by people misspelling things they presumably have _read_, not _heard_ in the first place. Sorry about the spelling, I royally suck at spelling, the book is in a box (in the middle of a move) and last time I read it was over 2 years ago. sorry to hit on a pet peeve. Monk/Cleric is also nice since Cleric buffs eliminate Monk's weaknesses, pretty much. Then there's Shadow Sun Ninja... Shadow sun ninja?
#8 illithid13 Sep 11, 2008 8:48:52	Archivist is in Heroes of Horror, fully detailed in the excerpt. Warblade is from Tome of Battle. If you want to go Monk with Arcane spellcasting, use Sorcerer and take the feat Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer. It switches your Wis bonus to AC for your Cha bonus to AC. Cleric/Monk is still a superb combination though, definitely a stronger spellcasting choice than Sorcerer. yes, thank you.
#9 Senevri Sep 11, 2008 10:08:55	Sorry about the spelling, I royally suck at spelling, the book is in a box (in the middle of a move) and last time I read it was over 2 years ago. sorry to hit on a pet peeve. It's okay, and as said, it's a Gish / Gestalt portmanteau. Shadow sun ninja? Arguably the best Monk PrC published, in Tome of Battle.
#10 phoenix00 Sep 11, 2008 13:47:58	It's okay, and as said, it's a Gish / Gestalt portmanteau. Arguably the best Monk PrC published, in Tome of Battle. The best monk prc ever published is the War Mind (from the XPH) with the prerequisite feats monastic training and tashalatora ;)
#11 keyes2k4 Sep 11, 2008 14:36:55	I think the best thing to do would be to look at what clerics require to be good and compare them to other classes. Clerics are a very versitile gestalt mix because they can cast well even while wearing heavy armor (see ignoring arcane spell failure because clerics don't even use arcane, they're divine). Their primary ability scores from most important to least are wisdom, constitution, charisma, and strength, so you want to look for classes which match those scores or else roll very good scores to begin with, because gestalt characters generally suffer from Multiple Ability Dependancy (A.K.A. MAD). Monk is an excellent choice because monks rely heavily on wisdom, strength, and constitution, not so much charisma. Another excellent choice is the psionic warrior, because they require wisdom, strength, and constitution, and have wisdom-based psionic powers (on top of super awesome extra feats, which you'll want if you are trying a warrior/cleric combo). Fighter is a good choice, you gain proficiencies with heavy armor and tower shields (very good) as well as getting bonus combat-oriented feats and a better BAB (all without penalizing your cleric spellcasting). the only downside is fighters do not require wisdom or charisma to be effective characters, so you will need at least 14 in nearly every ability except dexterity to be effective. There are other options for clerics you may wish to consider otherwise, such as Favored Soul (PHB2, basically your diety likes you and grants you stuff but you can't turn undead), Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana, enhances class skills and gives more skill points but takes away cleric's medium armor proficiency), healer (Miniatures Handbook, synergizes with higher charisma), paladin (PHB. You get a mount, a good BAB, and eventually cleric spells, but you need to be LG), and the psionic version of cleric (Complete Psionic, I don't really remember this class off-hand but I hear bad things about the book, may want to overlook this. . .). With these options, along with the 3 options I listed above for a possible gestalt character, you'll certainly be a powerful character. Anyways, enjoy your character whatever you pick.
#12 illithid13 Sep 12, 2008 13:12:47	Favored soul you say is in the PHB2. I've been looking for it in my copy, but cannot find it. can you give me a page number or at least the chapter?
#13 keyes2k4 Sep 12, 2008 13:29:09	I must apologize, I got the book wrong for favored soul, it is in the complete divine. Also I think I remember cloistered cleric gains a lore ability similar to bardic lore. This is more proof I should post when I'm at home, not at my office where I have no books. ;)
#14 kurashu Sep 13, 2008 1:38:48	The thing about gestalt is you don't a buttload of options. You want a passive and an active class. A wilder//paladin plays differently depending on what attributes you highlight. You can be a holy warrior who happens to have psionic abilities OR a psionic holy warrior. But, you can't be both since your options for optimizing as limited (if not more so) than in regular play. Another thing you want is synergy, classes that work together. Another thing that makes wilder//paladin so great is that they are both charisma centric. Marshal, bard, favored soul, sorcerer and dread necromancer could be subbed in for either side and would make a great gestalt combo. If you want a gish gestalt you want good melee and spellcasting AND a way to combine these two into one. However, in theory classes like spellsword and abjurant champion are out. The easiest solution is Duskblade. You get bonuses on casting and the abilitity to channel spells into melee at will. Notice that quick cast and spell power AREN'T limited to just duskblade spells (unless this has been errata'd). Now, the two biggest intelligence based casting classes are wizard and archivist. Archivists will be able to cast spells in armor without a boost like wizards would need. Archivists also get access to all divine spells (restoration as a first level spell). Wizards...well they are wizards. Both are pure win. Another option is factotum. Factotum + Warblade is sheer win. All of these classes are primarily intelligence focused. Yes, you'll want Con and Str for your warblade/duskblade/melee side to prosper, but you can always buff with druid and cleric spells before battle. And you can take arcane channeling and use your duskblade spells as well. Archivist 20//Duskblade 13/Heriophant 5/X 2 would be a good build. Just remember you want something that will synergy and not give you too many options. Other great builds are ones that use class stacking feats in gestalt (just don't go for too much cheesery). Wildshape Ranger/MOMF/Warshaper//Scout with Swift Hunter. Stuff like that.
#15 illithid13 Sep 13, 2008 20:19:47	The thing about gestalt is you don't a buttload of options. You want a passive and an active class. A wilder//paladin plays differently depending on what attributes you highlight. You can be a holy warrior who happens to have psionic abilities OR a psionic holy warrior. But, you can't be both since your options for optimizing as limited (if not more so) than in regular play. Another thing you want is synergy, classes that work together. Another thing that makes wilder//paladin so great is that they are both charisma centric. Marshal, bard, favored soul, sorcerer and dread necromancer could be subbed in for either side and would make a great gestalt combo. If you want a gish gestalt you want good melee and spellcasting AND a way to combine these two into one. However, in theory classes like spellsword and abjurant champion are out. The easiest solution is Duskblade. You get bonuses on casting and the abilitity to channel spells into melee at will. Notice that quick cast and spell power AREN'T limited to just duskblade spells (unless this has been errata'd). Now, the two biggest intelligence based casting classes are wizard and archivist. Archivists will be able to cast spells in armor without a boost like wizards would need. Archivists also get access to all divine spells (restoration as a first level spell). Wizards...well they are wizards. Both are pure win. Another option is factotum. Factotum + Warblade is sheer win. All of these classes are primarily intelligence focused. Yes, you'll want Con and Str for your warblade/duskblade/melee side to prosper, but you can always buff with druid and cleric spells before battle. And you can take arcane channeling and use your duskblade spells as well. Archivist 20//Duskblade 13/Heriophant 5/X 2 would be a good build. Just remember you want something that will synergy and not give you too many options. Other great builds are ones that use class stacking feats in gestalt (just don't go for too much cheesery). Wildshape Ranger/MOMF/Warshaper//Scout with Swift Hunter. Stuff like that. While this is all good and sound advice, it is not addressing my question. In my OP, I said that I was thinking of playing a monk, and what class would be a good casting option for it. Cleric Persistant spell cheese is too much for me (as great as it is), now I'm looking at a Psionic Warrior/War Mind for the caster type. The big disadvantage of warmind would be the seperate list of powers. Possibly an Elocater. I remember them being intreaguing the first time I went over them.
#16 kurashu Sep 13, 2008 22:56:15	Okay, egg on my face I missed that part. You want to do a monk? Druid is your partner right there then. In fact, you could drop some levels in monk to pick up the goodness of master of many forms. Druid 20//Monk 10/MOMF 10. Let wisdom do all the work. It's not hard to make up the lost levels of monk for unarmed strike. Also: Monk 1/Rogue 19 on one side would be good as well with Ascetic Stalker feat. Monk and rogue levels stack for unarmed damage. Full sneak attack, full unarmed damage, full druidness. Can't beat that.
#17 illithid13 Sep 14, 2008 14:58:53	hehe, that sounds good, where is MOMF from. It sounds familer, but I'm not able to place it.
#18 kurashu Sep 14, 2008 15:02:39	Complete Adventurer. It's decent with a druid that concentrates on wildshaping, it's awesome on a wildshaping ranger. Wildshape Ranger 5/MOMF 10/Warshaper 5 is a good build.
#19 natzero Sep 14, 2008 21:36:42	monk / favored soul / sacred fist would be quite nice aswell. and u have all good saves, evasion, full casting, full unarmed dmg, Monk 20 / Favored Soul 10 / Sacred Fist 10 ? would be interesting.
#20 kurashu Sep 15, 2008 0:27:32	Sacred Fist doesn't work for Gestalt.
#21 natenate Sep 15, 2008 2:24:55	I'll agree that Druid would be a good choice. I'd go something like Druid 20// Monk 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ Tattooed Monk 1/ MoMF 3. Tattooed Monk is in Complete Warrior, get the Ocean tattoo. Take the feat Natural Bond from Complete Adventurer and get a Fleshraker dinosaur from MM3, or a Giant Eagle from RoS, or any of the other companions from the 4th level or higher list, since Natural Bond will negate the -3 to your druid level for its HD and abilities. The 5th level of War Shaper is never a good idea to take, regardless of what build you're playing.
#22 kurashu Sep 16, 2008 12:42:03	Yeah, I forgot about the whole flashmorph/multimorph thing and thought they got something cooler at 5th level. Oh well. Edit: Here's an idea I just had. Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 4/PrC 1\\Monk 1/Scout 3/Rogue 16. Alertness, Endurance (you get this for free), Swift Ambusher, Ascetic Rogue. Take Superior Unarmed Strike and you have full monk unarmred damage. Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) and you're ready to brawl any time of the day. Wildshape into something extremely large and pummel. Benefits: Lots of wildshape options, full sneak attack and skirmish, full unarmed strike damage, wisdom to AC, lots and lots and lots of skill points. And since you assume the physical scores of the monster you wildshape into (last time I checked at least), put all your stat increases into charisma and abuse UMD.
#23 illithid13 Sep 16, 2008 20:25:07	Not sure if I've asked this already, but where is warshaper found. Man I hate being this rusty... Never mind, Complete warrior.
#24 kurashu Sep 16, 2008 21:26:25	Fist of Forest is a good choice for that extra level you have. Just have to squeeze in Great Fortitude and Power Attack. Just wildshape into something with a massive constitution score to give you a boost to your AC. And then Primal Trance 1/day while you're wildshaped. FoF is in Complete Champion, by the way.