Notes on markings:
# = level feat or variant is gained
#* indicates the feat or variant is an option that I chose in place of others
*# indicates the feat was gained via direct class progression
() around numbers indicates levels I haven't hit yet (hence some of the weird level progression)
Notes on goals of the class:
Use the wizard side to be the ultimate shadowcraft mage.
Use the beguiler side for increased skill points and a wonderful skill list, D6 HD, and easy access to Silent Image for the Shadowcraft Mage to pwn things with, plus I WILL be using UMD (prohibited schools suck...lol).
RP Goals: party face, utility mage, nuker, mind-controller (less important), CG yet somewhat selfish and greedy.
Notes on house rules:
Unique spell point system (convert normal slots into their point costs and that's how many points you have!).
Metamagic functions as per UA rules (increases point cost, maxes at highest level castable), and spontaneous casters don't increase their casting time.
Stat Spread: 18, 18, 18, 17, 15, 14 (note: blue ice full plate has a max dex of 2)
CG Gnome (find one with a + to INT with no LA?)
Suggestion: replace normal racial stat mods and spell-like abilities with
-2 to STR, +2 INT, +2 CHA (as per DMG rules on stats, that's balanced...ditching the spell-like abilities makes it more so)
1 Spell Focus: Illusion
*1 Gnome Illusion DC boost
1* Improved Initiative (replaces Scribe Scroll, as per UA fighter feats)
1* replace familiar with Chains of Disbelief (no bonus from others disbelieving it, save at +10 even with proof)
*1 Lose access to enchantment, evocation, necromancy, conjuration
3 Iron Will
*4 Skill Focus: Spellcraft
*5 Silent Spell
6 Earth Sense
6* Heighten Spell
9 Earth Spell
*10 Still Spell
12
14* metamagic feat
15
*16 Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
(18)
(19)* metamagic feat
Undecided level: Arcane Disciple: Kord: Luck Domain
Undecided: Snowcasting & Eschew Materials & cold focus & greater cold focus (part of a combo to allow casting in Blue Ice Full Plate from Frostburn).
note: campaign is likely to go epic... earth spell (and earth sense) can be ditched (or postponed) in favor of waiting until epic for free miracles and meteor swarms (though the CL + is nice...), but if these are postponed I can wait on Arcane Disciple as well.
1 - Beguiler 1 / Focused Specialist, Illusionist Wizard 1
2 - Beguiler 2 / wizard 2 or something else that gives wizard progression...if it exists
3 - Beguiler 3 / wizard 3 or something else that gives wizard progression...if it exists
4 - Beguiler 4 / Master Specialist 1
5 - Beguiler 5 / Master Specialist 2
6 - Beguiler 6 / Incantrix 1
7 - Beguiler 7 / Incantrix 2
8 - Beguiler 8 / Shadowcraft Mage 1
9 - Beguiler 9 / Shadowcraft Mage 2
10 - Beguiler 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 3
11 - Beguiler 11 / Shadowcraft Mage 4
12 - Beguiler 12 / Shadowcraft Mage 5
13 - Beguiler 13 / Incantrix 3
14 - Beguiler 14 / Incantrix 4
15 - Beguiler 15 / Incantrix 5
16 - Beguiler 16 / Master Specialist 3
17 - Beguiler 17 / Master Specialist 4
(18) - Beguiler 18 / Incantrix 6
(19) - Beguiler 19 / Incantrix 7
(20) - Beguiler 20 / Incantrix 8
Shadowcraft Mage 5 isn't that great. You should be able to pump your save DC to riddiculous anyway, so quasi reality is no biggie. Dump that in favor of Incantatrix 9
Featwise, Take Martial Study: Shadow Blade Technique, Martial Stance: (any Shadowblade stance you qualify for), and Shadow Trickster for +2 to your Illusion DCs.
You can also add another +2 using the snowcasting trick, but that eats all your remaining feats.
Arcane Disciple: Luck - You're cheesy enough as is, why not get cheesier by using Shadow Illusion to mimic Miracle?
Residual Magic - Cast a 9th level Shadow Illusion, then do it again the next round out of a cantrip slot.
As for races, Whisper Gnome doesn't get +Int, but it exchanges 2 dump stats (Str and Cha) for 2 good stats (Dex and Con).
Dropping shadowcraft mage 5 for incantrix 9 sounds like a decent idea. The only question, then, would be is double illusion duration worth more than the incantrix 10 abilities? a free metamagic feat *and* a -1 on the level adjustment.
The last question is: wait for epic to get 9th level evocations/conjurations and do the snowcasting tick for +2 to the DC? Or use earth spell now for 9th level stuffs and miracles that bypass the deities?
Thanks for the advice ^^ I was already debating if I should go focused spec or not. Of the prohibited schools listed, two are from specialist, one from focused, and one is from incantrix. Which one would you suggest I take back? Necromancy or Conjuration?
Dropping shadowcraft mage 5 for incantrix 9 sounds like a decent idea. The only question, then, would be is double illusion duration worth more than the incantrix 10 abilities? a free metamagic feat *and* a -1 on the level adjustment.
The last question is: wait for epic to get 9th level evocations/conjurations and do the snowcasting tick for +2 to the DC? Or use earth spell now for 9th level stuffs and miracles that bypass the deities?
Since you can shadow conj almost evrything you may be able to get away with dumping conj.
Snowcasting isn't worth it if you ave other feats you want, I just suggested it as another possible way to add DC.
As for races, Whisper Gnome doesn't get +Int, but it exchanges 2 dump stats (Str and Cha) for 2 good stats (Dex and Con).
They don't get the racial bonus to Illusion save DCs, though. I debated this with a SCM of mine, and eventually went with a Forest Gnome.
They don't get the racial bonus to Illusion save DCs, though. I debated this with a SCM of mine, and eventually went with a Forest Gnome.
I forgot about that. Thanks.
Still, is Whisper Gnome still worse if you have high enough Shadow Reality that you want them to make the save? :P
I forgot about that. Thanks.
Still, is Whisper Gnome still worse if you have high enough Shadow Reality that you want them to make the save? :P
It's been ruled that you cannot have more than 100 percent quasi reality. And you always want them to fail the save, because most of the time, the DC applies to not only the Disbelief but the inherent save in the spell you are mimicking.
Still, is Whisper Gnome still worse if you have high enough Shadow Reality that you want them to make the save? :P
No, but you don't get that till late in the game, if at all. So I guess it depends on which levels you expect to play at the most.
I like Whisper Gnomes. I'm just not sure they're the best for Illusionists, especially if you plan to start playing at the early levels.
It's been ruled that you cannot have more than 100 percent quasi reality. And you always want them to fail the save, because most of the time, the DC applies to not only the Disbelief but the inherent save in the spell you are mimicking.
Wait, where? Link? I must have missed this.
It's been ruled that you cannot have more than 100 percent quasi reality. And you always want them to fail the save, because most of the time, the DC applies to not only the Disbelief but the inherent save in the spell you are mimicking.
You are correct sir.
Regardless of the result of the
save to disbelieve, an affected creature is
also allowed any save (or spell resistance)
that the spell being simulated allows, but
the save DC is set according to shadow
evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s
normal level.
The altered spell functions identically to
the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the
spell’s strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.
You are correct sir.
The Save DC applying to the mimicked spell is quite clear. I believe that the part of the quote in question was the issue of having > 100% shadow reality. I as well have never seen anywhere that you can't have more than 100% reality. In fact, there have been quite a few SCM builds around here that make liberal use of > 100% reality.
P.S. If this turns into a rules debate, I apologize for the potential thread-jack in advance.
Your < is backwards. :D
Yeah, I just fixed that. This is what I get for running on 4 hours of sleep.
Stuff
OK. First off, *IMO*, CG that is greedy and selfish is actually CN, borderline CE. The definition of Good in DnD generally tend towards selfless (in fact selfishness and greed was used as a benchmark for Evil? AFB, so don't quote me). But that is open to interpretation.
Now, regarding your build:
I would go Forest Gnome. The bonus to Hide and Pass Without Trace is gold for a sneaky mage that don't want to be seen. The extra Illusion DC is superb too.
I would make the build something along the lines of:
Beguiler 20 // Focussed Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/SCM 5/Incantatrix 10
Drop Illusion, Enchantment and Evocation on the Specialist Wizard side, and then drop one other school when you get Incantatrix (Abjuration?).
You want the Abrupt Jaunt variation of the Conjurer (as I am not sure if Augment Summoning would work with your Shadow Illusioned summons).
To be honest, I would max out Wizard just for the bonus feats (I like feats...) and drop Beguiller for PrCs as soon as you get the free Silent/Still for your spells. But that is just me.
Wait, where? Link? I must have missed this.
I dont know about any official rulings, but it *does* make sense to not allow above 100%. That's why I'm not going for shadowcraft mage 5 anymore... 20% doesn't help when you're already at 100%
I dont know about any official rulings, but it *does* make sense to not allow above 100%. That's why I'm not going for shadowcraft mage 5 anymore... 20% doesn't help when you're already at 100%
That's fine if you are limiting yourself. SCM is only really optimal for 3 levels anyway. I was just afraid an errata or something had nerfed SCMs.
That's fine if you are limiting yourself. SCM is only really optimal for 3 levels anyway. I was just afraid an errata or something had nerfed SCMs.
Same here, because that sure would be unreasonable.
OK. First off, *IMO*, CG that is greedy and selfish is actually CN, borderline CE. The definition of Good in DnD generally tend towards selfless (in fact selfishness and greed was used as a benchmark for Evil? AFB, so don't quote me). But that is open to interpretation.
Now, regarding your build:
I would go Forest Gnome. The bonus to Hide and Pass Without Trace is gold for a sneaky mage that don't want to be seen. The extra Illusion DC is superb too.
I would make the build something along the lines of:
Beguiler 20 // Focussed Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/SCM 5/Incantatrix 10
Drop Illusion, Enchantment and Evocation on the Specialist Wizard side, and then drop one other school when you get Incantatrix (Abjuration?).
You want the Abrupt Jaunt variation of the Conjurer (as I am not sure if Augment Summoning would work with your Shadow Illusioned summons).
To be honest, I would max out Wizard just for the bonus feats (I like feats...) and drop Beguiller for PrCs as soon as you get the free Silent/Still for your spells. But that is just me.
Incantrix can't drop abjuration... it's required for the class (both as a prereq and in the focused studies dropped school description). Also, why in the world would I give up free greater spell focus and then have the requirement of taking TWO spell focus feats for going with conjurer? That's just stupid. SCM and master spec need focus, so it makes sense to do the same with both so I only need the one (and master spec illusion at 4 gives +2 to the DCs and it stacks). The idea of dropping Beguiler for feats is somewhat appealing, but skill points are more so when incantrix gives me all the metamagic I could ever want. it's 6 vs 2...6 wins. Also, shadow conjuration = I don't need to be a conjurer.
for the CG alignment, I said somewhat greedy and selfish, as in, while he wouldn't like it, he'd still give a few silver, maybe even a gold, to a beggar. He would want to get rich, but he'd put friends first (albeit grudgingly). He would want to keep his money, but he'd probably donate some of it if the temple used the usual tactic of having kids ask for it (hey, he'd use that tactic too). He would never like giving out his money, and he would never like doing things for free, but if the person needing the money or asking for help was respectful or kind he'd probably do it anyway. Does that make more sense?
I would make the build something along the lines of:
Beguiler 20 // Focussed Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/SCM 5/Incantatrix 10
Drop Illusion, Enchantment and Evocation on the Specialist Wizard side, and then drop one other school when you get Incantatrix (Abjuration?).
Wait, what?
Are you suggesting he use Beguiler spells to fuel his Shadow Illusions? I guess that might work. I'd still rather be able to have them from two lists.I'd suggest specializing in Illusion, and taking the gnome illusionist substitution level from Races of Stone that makes Silent Image a cantrip. Also, take Signature Spell (Silent Illusion).
That's fine if you are limiting yourself. SCM is only really optimal for 3 levels anyway. I was just afraid an errata or something had nerfed SCMs.
Operation_Shoestring was the person who said it, not me. lol
Wait, what?
I'd suggest specializing in Illusion, and taking the gnome illusionist substitution level from Races of Stone that makes Silent Image a cantrip.
O.O WHERE IS THAT?! lol *opens up RoS* THANK YOU!!!!!!! *glomp*
Operation_Shoestring was the person who said it, not me. lol
OS is usually well informed.
*Patiently waits for OS to drop link*
O.O WHERE IS THAT?! lol *opens up RoS* THANK YOU!!!!!!! *glomp*
Have you not looked at the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook?
Have you not looked at the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook?
I have... I just missed that I guess. I is happy now :D With it as a cantrip, I can reduce it down to the minimum +1 while getting who knows how many levels for free thanks to epic stuff (much much later that is)
Wait, what?
I'd suggest specializing in Illusion, and taking the gnome illusionist substitution level from Races of Stone that makes Silent Image a cantrip. Also, take Signature Spell (Silent Illusion).
Yes, Beguiler to fuel it
I would go that way because it would give him maximum flexibility. Anything that he can't do because of specialisation can be compensated for by the Beguiler side.
At the end of the day, when you use Heighten and Earth Spell, it doesn't matter where where gets your Silent Image from (cantrip or level 1 spell). It would take up your highest level spell slot (well, unless you ultra-cheese it with things like DMM).
The only thing using Beguiler as the qualifying class would be that your entry into SCM would be delayed by a level, IIRC.
Now, AvilonRayne:
The watchword there is FLEXIBILITY. You get to keep most of the spell selection of a generalist wizard BUT get a ton more spells. For an extra 2 spells/level, you lose... half a school (whichever one you chose to drop for Incantatrix)? Free GSF is great and all, but it is only 1 extra DC, and for a school which you would eventually not want them to make the save (the initial Will save that is...). I don't think it is that much of a loss.
Note that Shadow Conjuration won't give you access to the higher level Conjuration spells. The only reason I chose Conjuration as your specialisation is because of the Abrupt Jaunt feature. You can feel free to replace it with Transmutation if you prefer. That does not change the main premise behind the build:
Extra spell slots at an extreme low cost in flexibility.
OS is usually well informed.
*Patiently waits for OS to drop link*
I remember stuff, I don't keep a lot of links. I think it may have been a sage thing. I'm sorry.
In any case, this is pretty much a DM call thing, and I suspect most DM's are uncool with 160% quasi-reality.
I still maintain that higher DC is almost always better, even if you can get 150% quasi-reality.
I remember stuff, I don't keep a lot of links. I think it may have been a sage thing. I'm sorry.
In any case, this is pretty much a DM call thing, and I suspect most DM's are uncool with 160% quasi-reality.
I still maintain that higher DC is almost always better, even if you can get 150% quasi-reality.
Link? I'm just curious if a stealth nerf happened. I'm not argueing with rule 0 (as I largely agree).
Yes, Beguiler to fuel it
I would go that way because it would give him maximum flexibility. Anything that he can't do because of specialisation can be compensated for by the Beguiler side.
At the end of the day, when you use Heighten and Earth Spell, it doesn't matter where where gets your Silent Image from (cantrip or level 1 spell). It would take up your highest level spell slot (well, unless you ultra-cheese it with things like DMM).
The only thing using Beguiler as the qualifying class would be that your entry into SCM would be delayed by a level, IIRC.
Now, AvilonRayne:
The watchword there is FLEXIBILITY. You get to keep most of the spell selection of a generalist wizard BUT get a ton more spells. For an extra 2 spells/level, you lose... half a school (whichever one you chose to drop for Incantatrix)? Free GSF is great and all, but it is only 1 extra DC, and for a school which you would eventually not want them to make the save (the initial Will save that is...). I don't think it is that much of a loss.
Note that Shadow Conjuration won't give you access to the higher level Conjuration spells. The only reason I chose Conjuration as your specialisation is because of the Abrupt Jaunt feature. You can feel free to replace it with Transmutation if you prefer. That does not change the main premise behind the build:
Extra spell slots at an extreme low cost in flexibility.
the only problem is... if I'm a gnome illusionist I get my gnome spells at wizard CL, I get Silent Image as a cantrip (at a -1 CL to evocation, which I drop with incantrix anyway), and I get the illusionist variant in UA that prevents anyone from getting a bonus to a save for being told it's an illusion, and even with proof they still have to save (albeit at a +10 to their save) in place of a familiar... I can't do that with conjurer. Also, master spec illusionist at 4 gives +2 to the DC that stacks with everything else.
now, regardless of what my DM says, *I* say it's stupid to allow quasi reality to exceed 100%... it makes no sense. I'm not even going to ask my DM for it, because it's stupid. Allowing it can create amusing situations ("I don't believe it! WHY DOES IT BURN!?!?!?!?!?!?!") it simply defies even D&D logic. Besides, most massive damage evocation spells allow secondary saves (reflex for half on a meteor swarm for example), and that DC is identical to the first save (it says so in shadow evocation).
Also, keep in mind this build is for a spell point system. actual slots don't matter.
the only problem is... if I'm a gnome illusionist I get my gnome spells at wizard CL, I get Silent Image as a cantrip (at a -1 CL to evocation, which I drop with incantrix anyway), and I get the illusionist variant in UA that prevents anyone from getting a bonus to a save for being told it's an illusion, and even with proof they still have to save (albeit at a +10 to their save) in place of a familiar... I can't do that with conjurer. Also, master spec illusionist at 4 gives +2 to the DC that stacks with everything else.
now, regardless of what my DM says, *I* say it's stupid to allow quasi reality to exceed 100%... it makes no sense. I'm not even going to ask my DM for it, because it's stupid. Allowing it can create amusing situations ("I don't believe it! WHY DOES IT BURN!?!?!?!?!?!?!") it simply defies even D&D logic. Besides, most massive damage evocation spells allow secondary saves (reflex for half on a meteor swarm for example), and that DC is identical to the first save (it says so in shadow evocation).
Also, keep in mind this build is for a spell point system. actual slots don't matter.
It doesn't matter if it is a spell point system or it is spell slots. You burn a higher level resource (or more spell points) when you Heighten it, which is the basis of the SCM build. If you Heighten it to a spell level 10 spell (which is what Earth Spell + Heighten Spell does), you are either burning a level 9 slot or casting it using level 9 number of spell points. It does not matter if the spell was originally a cantrip or not.
Even if the enemy is told it is an Illusion, with the SCM's Shadow Illusion feature, it does not matter at the higher levels. Granted that it can be a pain at the lower levels, but hey, that is what playing God on the Wizard side is for. You also get a fairly big bonus to save DCs already from Beguiler when using Beguiler spells.
I just feel that the extra flexibility (you can't use Silent Image for ALL Conjuration spells, for example you can't mimic the Fog spells from Silent Image, *I think*) is worth the loss of extra Illusion DC.
At the end of the day, when you use Heighten and Earth Spell, it doesn't matter where where gets your Silent Image from (cantrip or level 1 spell). It would take up your highest level spell slot (well, unless you ultra-cheese it with things like DMM).
Which another great reason why he shouldn't prohibit Illusion. He will cut the number of high level spellslots he can do this with in half by doing that.
Abrupt Jaunt is nice, but it's not worth that. I can tell you how to reproduce it a few times per day, and be able to do it while flat-footed, with a magic item, and a few Shadow Illusions (Contingency).
Also, you can now afford to lose caster levels on one side which you can make up for on the other - a huge perk. For example, you could give up 2 levels of beguiler in favor of Wyrm Wizard 2 to grab Miracle.
What level are you starting at?
Also, how does your DM deal with Templates, alternate races, Level adjustment, etc. Could you be a half-celestial, for example?
Best,
David
EDIT - I just realized that you are starting at level 17 based on the parenthesis.
If your DM plans to make hard battles, in a game like this I'd recommend that you make yourself tougher ... higher Saves, AC, etc.
Also, you can now afford to lose caster levels on one side which you can make up for on the other - a huge perk. For example, you could give up 2 levels of beguiler in favor of Wyrm Wizard 2 to grab Miracle.
First of all, unless it's houseruled otherwise, you only get prestige classes on one side of the build.
Secondly, the Beguiler Capstone ability (bypass all SR if enemy is denied dex) is very nice.
First of all, unless it's houseruled otherwise, you only get prestige classes on one side of the build.
That's not true. You just can't take a PrC on each side at the same time.