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| #1refinementJul 20, 2010 0:04:14 | Hey folks, I'm looking for some prestige/multiclassing options for my 12 level Goliath Barbarian. Long story short, I'm a DM that will be playing as a PC for a few short levels. Right now, I know I want to start multiclassing after my 11th Barbarian level, but I'm not sure what I want to take. Here's what I have: (All extra bonuses are due to items allowed by the DM and good rolls; don't worry about them) STR 29 DEX 12 (14 - 2 Racial... sigh) CON 24 INT 13 WIS 13 CHA 6 I took the Lion Totem Pounce sub level (CC) and the Goliath Mountain Rage and Skin of Stone sub levels (RoS) Feats Power Attack Improved Bull Rush Shock Trooper Leap Attack (_______) Skills: Max Jump (great coupled with Leap Attack + Mountain Movement Racial ability), high Spot and Listen Weapons: Greatsword, Dwarven Warpike (RoS) Here's my quandary: 1) Is it worth it to go Totemist 2/Totem Rager 1 or 2? I'll only be playing for a few levels. If so, my 12 level feat should be Cobalt Rage. This seemed cool (bump up on Reflex saves, pseudo magical items) at first but I'm not sure that the Soulmelds really do much for me at such low levels. The Totem Bind I'm most interested in is Gorgon Mask, and I'm also considering Pegasus Cloak (I am a bit concerned they'll stick me with falling damage if I'm jumping a lot) and Krenshar Mask. If I do go this route, what soulmelds should I take? 2) OR should I dip Fighter for 2 levels and possibly Scout 1 or 2 (purely for Skirmish)? Feats seem really useful and stuff like Cleave, Steadfast Determination, and Powerful Charge are notably missing from my list. I was also considering going for Peregrine Runner (RoS) but it seems annoying to qualify for it (Great Stamina seems sweet though). 3) OR should I do something else? Fighter 1/ Frenzied Berserker 1 or 2? Something out of Tome of Battle? Something even better? The thing I'm concerned about here is my already abysmal AC. The DM is letting me have a +4 Breastplate but that's essentially all I've got, and the Mountain Rage will decrease my AC 1 more point than usual for being large (and I might have the group wizard Enlarge me even more on occasion). Should I just continue nerfing it into oblivion and expect to soak up the damage anyway (180 HP atm, +36/rage) or should I be more careful about being hit? I might be able to get some buffs from the party but it wouldn't be much. Also, it'd be sweet to take advantage of the Powerful Build/Mountain Rage feature even further, or continue to better my Leap Attack. Well, what do you think? Let me know if you need any more info and thanks in advance |
| #2Maat_MonsJul 20, 2010 0:41:35 | Fighter 2 can get you the dungeoncrasher variant (Dungeonscape). That lets you deal 4d6+2*str damage whenever you bull rush someone into a wall. You sacrifice your 2nd level fighter feat for this. The knockback feat (Races of Stone) gives you a free bull rush (with no attacks of opportunity) every time you attack someone while using power attack, and it gives you a bonus on the opposed strength check equal to twice the power attack penalty. You've already got all the prerequisites, and it's a fighter feat. The rampaging bull rush feat (Races of Stone) lets you automatically knock someone prone after a successful bull rush, but you have to accept a -4 on the opposed strength check. You've already got all the prerequisites for this too. You can get all three of these things by 13th level. Then, when you full-attack someone you've got pinned against a wall, you essentially get 4d6+2*str bonus damage on every attack, and you knock him prone. Alternately, you can send someone flying across the room (knockback says you don't have to move with him). He'll be prone where he lands, so he'd need to spend a move action to stand up, meaning he can't both get to you and attack this round. |
| #3refinementJul 20, 2010 10:43:09 | That's... pretty sick. Was not aware of the Dungeon Crasher sub-level. This definitely blows the Soulmelds out of the water damage-wise. I'm thinking I might go with Steadfast Determination over Rampaging Bull Rush for now, but I'm not sure yet. Knocking the opponent prone seems like it'd buy me a lot of time (and attacks of opportunity) but I wonder if my Will save will protect me more (I suppose it depends on the DM). Where should I go after Fighter 2? It would put me at Goliath 1/Barbarian 11/Fighter 2. Anyone have any other ideas? |
| #4ah_andrasJul 20, 2010 14:21:55 | Take it up to Fighter 6 for the improved Dungeon Crasher ACF replacing the 6th level feat. That's an extra 4d6 +Str on top. I played a Goliath Barb/fighter and it was just devastating. I used a Lg Spiked chain and with Mountain Rage you are treated as Large when raging in all respects so that's a 20' reach with the spiked chain. I was doing 10d6+4.5xStr when my targets bounced off the wall. Other feats of interest: Combat reflexes w that 20' reach Shock Trooper, lets you bull rush targets at an angle Mad Foam Rager Grab the Mind Armor armor enhancement from MIC for bonus to will saves. |
| #5BalthanonJul 20, 2010 15:41:05 | If Tome of Battle is available, I would definitely consider adding some of that. Adding a level after 11 would let you pick up up to 3rd level maneuvers, adding a level after 12th would let you pick up up to 4th level maneuvers. There are a number of counters that allow you to substitute skill checks or attack rolls for your AC, which could be a good supplement for your defenses. Additionally, Mountain Movement synergizes really well with Sudden Leap for swift action movement-- I'm playing a mixed martial adept goliath right now and having a bunch of fun with it. Are you set on Barbarian 11, or was that just something you had in mind? |
| #6Maat_MonsJul 20, 2010 16:27:49 | I'm thinking I might go with Steadfast Determination over Rampaging Bull Rush for now, but I'm not sure yet. Steadfast determination requires endurance. That poses a bit of a speed bump in getting it, unless you can convince the DM to retroactively allow you the horse totem variant. That variant trades uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge for run, +2 to handle animal and ride with horses, and endurance. It should be fully compatible with your other variants, assuming you didn't take the fortification racial substitution level. Also, since we're on the topic of will saves and Tome of Battle, moment of perfect mind is a 1st level maneuver that lets you make a concentration check in place of a will save as a swift action. Of course, like any maneuver, you can only expect to use that every-other round. |
| #7refinementJul 20, 2010 17:04:49 |
I would get Combat Reflexes but it only gives me 1 more AoO for my junk DEX. Mad Foam Rager seems pretty fun but just no room atm. And yeah, Shock Trooper is already on my list. Seems ridiculous. If Tome of Battle is available, I would definitely consider adding some of that. Adding a level after 11 would let you pick up up to 3rd level maneuvers, adding a level after 12th would let you pick up up to 4th level maneuvers. What class should I be taking for ToB? Warblade? It's definitely available but I know almost nothing about it in terms of power level/what maneuvers/stances to take. Subbing attacks for AC seems quite useful, and Sudden Leap is pretty neat. As far as Barbarian 11 is concerned, I'm not necessarily set on it, I just thought Greater Rage was a kind of necessity if I were going to maximize damage. What did you have in mind? I'm somewhat new to Min/Maxing and I'm open to a bit of fluidity in my build. It'd be nice to have a little variety anyway. Steadfast determination requires endurance. That poses a bit of a speed bump in getting it, unless you can convince the DM to retroactively allow you the horse totem variant. That variant trades uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge for run, +2 to handle animal and ride with horses, and endurance. It should be fully compatible with your other variants, assuming you didn't take the fortification racial substitution level. Ahh I'm a dummy. That's my stupid fault for not reading the reqs. Though I was considering a Horizon Walker dip for Desert Terrain Mastery. That may or may not be all that useful though. Horse Totem is a possibility too, I suppose. The issue with Moment of Perfect Mind is that it's useless in a rage - no concentration checks. |
| #8Maat_MonsJul 20, 2010 17:45:02 | Oh, I had thought the character was already in play. In that case, I'd suggest not going barbarian 11. Not that an extra +2 str and +2 con is bad, I just think there are better things to do with the levels. The extra rage feat (Complete Warrior) gives you 2 extra uses of rage per day each time you take it. Even with only 1 level of barbarian, you can have 5 uses of rage per day if you are willing to devote 2 feats. That should be more than enough. Since you don't plan to have a high dex, you don't gain that much benefit from uncanny dodge. The wolf totem variant gives you improved trip in place of uncanny dodge, which might be desirable depending on what direction you take things in. Warblade 2 also gives you uncanny dodge, so you will pick it up anyway if you go that rout. On the other hand, barbarian 2 / warblade 2 gets you improved uncanny dodge if you don't trade the barbarian's uncanny dodge away. That could be useful depending on how much your DM likes rogues. Barbarian 2 / fighter (dungeoncrasher) 6 / warblade 3 gives you 4 3rd level maneuvers and 1 4th level maneuver. Another option is to take 3 levels of stoneblessed (Races of Stone) to count as a dwarf for all prerequisites and gain +2 con. This allows you to take 2 levels of deepwarden (Races of Stone) so you can replace dex to AC with con to AC. If you like, you can also take a level of fist of the forest (Complete Champion) to gain a bonus to AC equalt to your con when you do not wear armor or carry a shield. Unfortunately, that requires great fortitude and improved unarmed strike. |
| #9BalthanonJul 20, 2010 18:47:00 | Favored classes can throw a wrench into that-- goliaths only have barbarian as their favored class unless the DM has added to that or eliminated the penalties for multiclassing. If he wants to maintain a barbarian focus, I could see going to 7th level with Barbarian for the Streetfighter alternate class feature from Cityscape (rather than Skin of Stone). Barbarian 7/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Crusader 1 could be a nice mix in that case. That picks up:
If you ever want to take more levels of barbarian, Streetfighter actually makes that worthwhile-- otherwise I could see continuing to dip into various martial adept classes. You qualify for the Fangshield substitutions because you're a monstrous humanoid and the rest are more standard alternate class features. Overall, this gives you a lot of class features to support your charging though. Three more levels of barbarian will give you the ability to turn during a charge, I would also consider picking up a level of Swordsage for Step of the Wind, which will let you charge over rough terrain (and give you more decent counters). |
| #10Maat_MonsJul 20, 2010 20:02:29 | Favored classes can throw a wrench into that-- goliaths only have barbarian as their favored class unless the DM has added to that or eliminated the penalties for multiclassing. I always forget I'm not dealing with a human. I suppose you could go barbarian 1 / fighter 5 / warblade 5 (not in that order) and get the improvement to dungeon crasher next level. That also gets you an extra bonus feat. It's from a poor list, but it includes endurance if you're aiming for steadfast determination. For feats, you might go with endurance, extra rage, improved bull rush, knockback, and power attack plus any 2 of extra rage (again), leap attack, rampaging bull rush, shock trooper, and steadfast determination. |
| #11refinementJul 21, 2010 15:00:31 | First off, thanks dudes for your invaluable advice. @Balthanon - The only WotC books I'm keeping out are campaign setting related, so no Forgotten Realms. Sorry, I should have let you know ahead of time Here's what I'm thinking Goliath 1/Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/Warblade 1-2/Fighter 2-3/Warblade 3/Fighter 4/Warblade 4 (I realized I'll actually be starting @ 13) for 7 feats, 3 2nd level maneuvers, 1 2nd (i.e. 1st) level stance, 2 3rd level maneuvers and up to 4th level stance (i.e. 3rd) Further Progression: either warblade 5 (endurance, 5th level maneuver)/horizon walker 1 (desert terrain, steadfast determination)/fighter 5-6, or fighter 5/warblade 5 (endurance, 5th level maneuver, steadfast determination)/horizon walker 1/fighter 6) Class/Racial abilities Mountain Movement Powerful Build Acclimated +2 Sense Motive Pounce Mountain Rage 4/day (with feat - see below) Trapkiller (Dungeonscape) Improved Uncanny Dodge Dungeoncrasher Battle Clarity Weapon Aptitude Battle Ardor Feats Power Attack Improved Bull Rush Knockback Rampaging Bull Rush Shock Trooper Extra Rage Leap Attack Maneuvers Claw at the Moon TC2 (or Stone Vise SD2) Sudden Leap TC1 Wall of Blades IH2 Iron Heart Surge IH3 Fountain of Blood TC4 (DC 26!)(or Death From Above TC4) Stances Punishing Stance IH1 Leaping Dragon Stance TC3 (somewhat redundant w/ mountain movement but bonus is undeniably awesome... May switch this out for Absolute Steel IH3 to negate ac penalty for charging... not sure which is better here) What do you all think? (edit: Fixed.) |
| #12Maat_MonsJul 21, 2010 16:48:24 | Here are the initiator levels you have at each warblade level in your proposed build: Barbarian 1-4 Here are the initiator levels you have at each warblade level in a slightly reordered build: Barbarian 1-4 This gives you a 3rd level maneuver instead of a 2nd level manuever at warblade level 2. White raven tactics is an excellent maneuver. You can use a swift action to give an ally an extra turn if you time it correctly. It is a 3rd level white raven manuever that has knowledge of 1 white raven maneuver as a prerequisite. According to page 44 of Tome of Battle, stances count as maneuvers for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for maneuvers and stances. So, if you are willing to get rid of claw at the moon and punishing stance, you can pick up white raven tactics and either bolstering voice or leading the charge while still meeting the prerequisites for everything else. |
| #13refinementJul 21, 2010 17:00:16 | Ahh, I was adding in my LA. Still, it turns out to be almost the same. I only took Claw at the Moon to qualify for Sudden Leap and therefore Fountain of Blood. I don't know, it seems like Fountain is too good to pass up with my ridiculous str modifier. But WRT sounds good too. hmm. edit: ahh, messed up again. Man... LA sucks and should count as a class level. That means I can't even take fountain of blood. I might have to House rule that. |
| #14refinementJul 21, 2010 18:10:36 | Does LA counting for a Class Level seem broken to anyone? Anyone ever tried it? Edit: Wow... upon doing more research, LA is even worse than I thought... Explicitly worse than I thought. What a limiting and useless rule... Something tells me that LA doesn't count as a class level just because it doesn't provide hit dice, which makes sense but ultimately makes LA races barely playable. |
| #15Maat_MonsJul 21, 2010 18:15:54 | You can take fountain of blood. At warblade 4, you are allowed to trade any single maneuver you know for any single new maneuver you qualify for. Your initiator level at warblade 4 is 8, so you can trade some 1st level maneuver for a 4th level maneuver, if you want. Also, remember that stances count for prerequisites. You could do the following. Warblade 1 (IL 4) Warblade 2 (IL 5) Warblade 3 (IL 6) Warblade 4 (IL 8) |
| #16refinementJul 21, 2010 18:25:20 | Ahhh, I've seen the light (and read the Level 4 switching rule). One thing that is incorrect above is that Sudden leap requires 1 TC maneuver but whatever it is can be replaced with Fountain of Blood. Man, thanks. I might take Bolstering Voice instead of Leading the Charge but same idea. Excellent call, those two maneuvers (well, maneuver and stance) were useless anyway. |
| #17Maat_MonsJul 21, 2010 21:17:11 | One thing that is incorrect above is that Sudden leap requires 1 TC maneuver... Oops, I just assumed no 1st level maneuver had prerequisites. It makes sense though. It is good enough to warrant a prerequisite. I might take Bolstering Voice instead of Leading the Charge but same idea. Yeah, I sort of mentally flipped a coin on which of the two to use in the example. |
| #18BalthanonJul 21, 2010 21:31:09 | I have a house rule in my campaign that you can buy off level adjustment (pay experience) to turn it into a "Bloodline Level". Personally, I think standard level adjustment buyoff doesn't work unless the entire party is taking advantage of it-- particularly when you consider it in terms of the costs associated with inherent ability score bonuses. (Which racial bonuses are strictly superior to.) It hasn't received much playtesting yet and I reduced the costs somewhat, but it seems more fair to me. I would probably take a stance other than Leaping Dragon myself-- if you want a Tiger Claw stance, my personal favorite is Hunter's Stance with Blood in the Water a short ways behind that. Scent is incredibly useful. In terms of picking it up, I would probably go: Barbarian 1-4 Fighter 1-2 Warblade 1 (4): *M - Claw at the Moon [Trade in at W4] *M - Sudden Leap *M - Wall of Blades *S - Hunter's Stance Warblade 2 (5): *M - Iron Heart Surge Warblade 3 (6): *M - Moment of Perfect Mind Fighter 3-4 Warblade 4 (7) *M - Fountain of Blood *S - Absolute Steel Stance I would only take Fountain of Blood if you're taking another fear producing feat, like Intimidating Rage, so you can stack the fear effect and get something better than shaken. Or if someone else in your party is doing something like that. Absolute Steel Stance I'm not actually a big fan of, mainly because the +10 foot speed boost is an enhancement bonus you can purchase for 5,500 gold. Still, that's an extra 5,000 gold spent on something else. With all of this, keep in mind that you are only going to have four maneuvers prepared at any given time. So I would pick four of these maneuvers that you want prepared most of the time and then one that you would prepare when you have five minutes and know what you're going up against. Sudden Leap and Wall of Blades are likely to stay in your repetoire and it sounded like you liked Fountain of Blood, so at that point you're deciding between Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Mind (or whatever you end up taking). If you go the White Raven route, I would probably keep Leading the Charge. For your character, the extra bonus damage is going to be very nice (7 extra damage on every hit of a Pounce) and morale bonuses to Will are fairly common from other classes. I would still actually consider picking up one of the 1st level Tiger Claw stances instead of Leaping Dragon though-- both scale much better than either of the 3rd level stances you were considering. |
| #19refinementJul 21, 2010 22:28:19 | I would pick Moment of Perfect Mind no problem except you can't use Concentration during a rage. That's a good call. I might consider Intimidating Rage there, or Intimidating strike, which is more uses and easier to pull off. Honestly, I might just like the name Fountain of Blood, which is absurd in itself. I think my character will be capable of pulling it off on the high DC though so i might repace extra rage (we're a 1-2 encounter/day type of group anyway) with Intimidating Strike and boost my Intimidate skill. IT'd give me a little more crowd control which might be nice as a Large dude, although to be fair, I have a ton of CC in the Bull Rush feats. My party is primarily casters so I think WRT is the way to go here. Also, I kind of assumed that "allies" meant "the party minus the initiator" rather than "the entire party." Is this wrong? As far as Absolute Steel, just realized that I already have that enhancement bonus by a DM-approved Boots of Striding and Springing. Blood in the Water would be useful if I were expecting more crits but for now I'm not really expecting it to be that often and I don't really want to go TWF with kukris (someday, though, I'll make a critmonkey that does). Hunter's Stance seems good, especially against invisibility, but I picked up a skill trick that does that for me and I don't have track for scent to be useful in RPing situations. |
| #20BalthanonJul 22, 2010 7:09:18 | Typically allies includes yourself and there have been a few rulings from Customer Support for this-- I usually make the distinction when I'm DMing that "all allies" in the description means you and your allies. If it says "your allies" then it is everyone but you. That helps somewhat with things like White Raven Tactics while still allowing you to benefit from some of the "aura" maneuvers. For the Scent piece, one option is to pick up a Mask of the Tiger from the MIC. That will give you +5 to Survival, low-light vision, and Track for 4,000 gold-- not a bad option given how useful tracking can be. (And that you can have a decent number of Survival ranks, particularly if you space out a couple of your Barbarian levels. The Concentration issue is a good point, since you're going to be spending most fights raging. I would probably go with Leading the Charge at 1st then and either Hunter's Stance (if picking up the mask) or Leaping Dragon Stance at 4th. Leaping Dragon actually does have one decent benefit-- because the bonus is 10-ft, rather than +10 to Jump, it means you have a much better vertical leap. |
| #21refinementJul 22, 2010 11:46:48 | Typically allies includes yourself and there have been a few rulings from Customer Support for this-- I usually make the distinction when I'm DMing that "all allies" in the description means you and your allies. If it says "your allies" then it is everyone but you. That helps somewhat with things like White Raven Tactics while still allowing you to benefit from some of the "aura" maneuvers. That makes a lot of sense. In that case Leading the Charge is probably the best option. For the Scent piece, one option is to pick up a Mask of the Tiger from the MIC. That will give you +5 to Survival, low-light vision, and Track for 4,000 gold-- not a bad option given how useful tracking can be. (And that you can have a decent number of Survival ranks, particularly if you space out a couple of your Barbarian levels. I would be all about this but the DM is being really stingy with giving me magical items because he thinks I'm trying to take advantage of them (when really I'm trying just to get my fair share). I give him (in game) a Psicrown of the Cautious Warrior for his Monk/Psionic Fist and the best I get is a +4 Belt of Giant Strength (we're running a pretty high-powered campaign). I also don't have magical items available to buy in-game except very rarely (just for a little more control... I tend to give the players what they want, though). On top of that he's a new DM and I think he'll be taking every opportunity to exercise his DM power (just because I have had to arbitrate on occasion). It sucks but he has to learn somehow. I just hope he doesn't diminish the fun of the game so that he can get his jollies nerfing someone else's stuff. The Concentration issue is a good point, since you're going to be spending most fights raging. I would probably go with Leading the Charge at 1st then and either Hunter's Stance (if picking up the mask) or Leaping Dragon Stance at 4th. Leaping Dragon actually does have one decent benefit-- because the bonus is 10-ft, rather than +10 to Jump, it means you have a much better vertical leap. That's mostly why I was interested in Leaping Dragon. I mean, essentially, doesn't that allow me to escape a lot of AoO? I should be able to jump over, in a lot of instances, the threatened range of a medium opponent. Anyone know how that works? What I'm assuming is that you add the DCs of long jump/high jump together if you're combining them, in which case I should be able to boost one aspect 10' with Leaping Dragon |
| #22BalthanonJul 22, 2010 13:28:43 | I would be all about this but the DM is being really stingy with giving me magical items because he thinks I'm trying to take advantage of them (when really I'm trying just to get my fair share). I give him (in game) a Psicrown of the Cautious Warrior for his Monk/Psionic Fist and the best I get is a +4 Belt of Giant Strength (we're running a pretty high-powered campaign). Ahh, that is an issue then. Might be worth running by him though-- since the magic item doesn't impact combat, he might be more open to allowing it. For the Jump skill, your vertical height on a long jump is equal to one-quarter of your distance traveled-- probably not enough to avoid an attack of opportunity from anything with reach typically. (Particularly since it's at the apex of the jump only.) Relevant passage is below:
Given that you are going to have Warblade levels though, I would just take Tumble-- you should be able to get that to 8 ranks or more pretty easily. Though again, you're going to be in trouble with the raging with that. It would function to get you into combat range though, at which point you could trigger your rage. |
| #23refinementJul 22, 2010 14:03:41 | Ahh that's a good call on Tumble... forgot it was a Warblade skill. Still, I might be able to ecape some AoO this way. During a rage I have a jump of 38 (I think...), plus 10 feet from leaping dragon, so a total of around 50 (plus whatever I roll). You're right, not good enough for reach, but it might occasionally be enough. It's weird though that it isn't possible (explicitly) to add extra height to a long jump. Jumping is just a parabola, and it can be in any size arc you want, presuming you have the skill. |
| #24BalthanonJul 22, 2010 15:03:21 | I had thought the Whirling Frenzy variant specifically allowed for Tumble, but that doesn't have it in the passage. You could see if your DM will allow you to combine the Cityscape "Ferocity" rage variant with Mountain Rage though-- that does explicitly allow for Dex based skills (and actually gives you a Dex boost instead of Con, which is usually an improvement since it means less likelihood of you keeling over dead right after combat ends.) |