Goliath UberCharge (3.5) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 abwinningh42 Feb 07, 2012 0:13:38	Hey, guys. I realize I've posted a thread similar to this before, but I'm working on a similar character and would like some extra knowledge on the subject. I can use nearly all 3.5 fluff. More questionable material is subject to the DM however (but he's fairly liberal). Thank you guys for all the help in the past! And thank you again for the future assistance! (: Special Thanks to Tempest_Stormwind, Dictum_Mortuum, and aelryinth! Wild Arctic Goliath Raw Rolls - Beginning Stats 18 Str 24 14 Dex 12 13 Con 17 12 Int 10 12 Wis 12 12 Cha 8 Wild and Arctic are Templates from Dragon Magazine #306 Show Traits: Quick, Musclebound Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable 01 Fighter Power Attack, Tireless, Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Sunder 02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem 03 Fighter Extra Rage, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sugliin LA Buyoff 04 Fighter 05 Fighter Leap Attack 06 Fighter Sugliin Mastery 07 Fighter Shocktrooper
#2 Maat_Mons Feb 07, 2012 11:59:37	A sugliin deals 9 points of damage on average. A glaive deals 5.5 points of damage on average. Gaining 3.5 damage for 2 feats isn't spectacular. If you can get it allowed, the thrall of Kostchtchie (Dragon 345, p27) would be my choice over war hulk. It provides +8 str and +4 con instead of +20 str, but it provides full base attack bonus, which allows for better charging power attacks. It also increases your size by 1 category at 10th-level. Presumably, you'll then be huge when raging, though the wording is funny. You don't appear to be using the dungeoncrasher alternative class feature (Dungeonscape) for fighter. It replaces two fighter feats and causes you to deal 8d6+3*str damage when you bull rush someone into a wall. As a goliath, you qualify for the knockback feat (Races of Stone), which lets you make a free bull rush after a successful melee attack.
#3 abwinningh42 Feb 07, 2012 14:05:38	Thanks, Maat! So... Show Traits: Quick, Musclebound Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable 01 Fighter Power Attack, Thrall to Demon (Kostchtchie), Imp. Bull Rush 02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem 03 Fighter Extra Rage ACF: Dungeoncrasher LA Buyoff 04 Fighter 05 Fighter Leap Attack 06 Fighter Shocktrooper 07 Fighter ACF: Dungeon Crasher 08 Thrall 09 Thrall Knockback 10 Thrall 11 Thrall 12 Thrall Feat 13 Thrall 14 Thrall 15 Thrall Feat 16 Thrall 17 Thrall
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 07, 2012 14:08:20	Seconding Maat's suggestions. The sugliin is one of those "looks good, but sucks" weapons, since you need to spend feats to even use it. The fact that they thought they could balance it by giving it cripplingly slow action costs to use shows to what lengths you'd have to go to use it. Similarly, War Hulk is, in general, a trap. There are very rare circumstances where it's worth it; ubercharging most certainly isn't one of them. The main reason is that... well, let me show you. Let's take an ubercharge chassis like yours up to level 10, with modifications underlined: (Note: your weapon is now a guisarme, not a sugliin.) 01 Fighter Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Knockback, Combat Reflexes 02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem 03 Fighter Extra Rage, [Dungeoncrasher I] LA Buyoff 04 Fighter 05 Fighter Leap Attack 06 Fighter Shock Trooper 07 Fighter [Dungeoncrasher II] 08 Fighter 09 Fighter Improved Sunder, Combat Brute 10 ANY_FULL_BASE_ATTACK (it doesn't matter which, and it's not likely to get you another feat; you've got all you need) These modifications allow you to act as a three-pronged combatant: You ubercharge on your turn, then act as an AoO tank when it isn't your turn, and through it all you monkey with enemy positions via Bull Rush (which, if you're indoors, turns you into a wrecking ball). It's actually alarmingly easy to get all of these components in the same build quite early on, which you're seeing here. Consider two followups to this. One of them is another 10 levels of Fighter. (Hell, NPC WARRIOR would work here too; all I need is full base attack to show my point.) The other is 10 levels of War Hulk (perhaps dealying one of the feats for the Cleave prerequisite, and bribing the DM to get him to ignore the size requirement: Goliaths are MEDIUM creatures, and Powerful Build lets them treat themselves as large for a VERY specific list of abilities, with prerequisites not being among them. They can take some Large-prereq abilities, but all of those explicitly say they work with Powerful Build (i.e. Knockback); this isn't a generic rule.). Note that, vitally, the base attack bonus column of the War Hulk is 0. This means that CHASSIS 10 / War Hulk 10 has a base attack bonus of 10 (i.e. two attacks per round), even though you'll have a strength of 49 (60 at absolute best with every item in the game that directly boosts Strength). His normal attack bonus (just swinging) is +35/+30, modified by his weapon, and deal 2d4+38 base damage before magic weapons kick in. However, his UBERCHARGES work out to +37/+32 with 2d4+38+40 (on the first charge; subsequent charges increase to 2d4+38+60 due to Combat Brute), since he only has 10 points of base attack to funnel into things. He can increase this number in other ways, the most common of which is the Valorous weapon enhancement... but even that would just change the charge damage to 4d4+76+80 or 4d4+76+120. So let's give him a +1 Valorous guisarme loaded up with Greater Magic Weapon (+5/+5). Against AC 36 (mean AC for CR 20), he won't miss except on nat 1s, so I'll exclude that from the equation. This means his expected damage is 176 2 hits on the first charge and 2162 hits on the second. His one big advantage here is that he can use Massive Swing to spread the pain around. Let's grant him that, and look at what just 10 levels of Fighter would have bought him. Those 10 levels raise him to Fighter 18 at least, which allows him to spend his 5 new feats on Focus / Spec / G.Focus / G. Spec / Mastery and his 18th level feat on Supremacy, if you want, perhaps grabbing Improved Trip and Robilar's Gambit along the way. That's not insubstantial. But for now, to show my point, let's assume he blows them all on Toughness. CHASSIS 10 / Fighter +10 has a base attack bonus of 20 (four attacks per round). His Strength is 20 lower than the war hulk's (40), but the 10 extra points of base attack mean that he attacks at +35/+30/+25/+20 before weapons, dealing 2d4+22 with a nonmagical guisarme. It looks worse... until he pounces. His basic ubercharge works out to +37/+32/+27/+22, for 2d4+22+80 on the first charge and 2d4+22+120... with a nonmagical guisarme. Let's give him the same weapon as our example one upthere (a +1 Valorous guisarme with Greater Magic Weapon), and we see that it becomes +42/+37/+32/+27, with 4d4+54+160 on the first charge and 4d4+54+240 on the second. Since those attack bonuses (which do NOT assume any of the focus feats) will have two automatic hits, followed by a 17/20 chance to hit (4 or higher hits 36 on a +32) and then a 12/20 chance to hit (9 or higher hits 36 on a +27), our expected damage is 224(2+0.85+0.6) = 772.8 on the first hit, and 304(2+0.85+0.6) = 1048.8 expected damage on the followup charge. Incidentally, the bonus damage from Power Attack (the serious source of damage on the second build here) will continue to apply on all your AoOs. The Power Attack number is the third one listed in each expression above. As long as you're able to charge (to keep your AB up due to Shock Trooper), you will find that extra base attack results in far more deadly expected damage. You're hitting far more frequently (more attacks) and those hits are doing more damage than a freaking war hulk as a result. It's also quite possible to work in Sweeping Strike into a build like this, costing you only one point of base attack, and that's almost as good as the swing abilities. (I just noticed I left Rage out of the table, but that doesn't actually skew things all that much. I also left off the other other ubercharge route designed to make DMs cry: Frenzied Berserker. Not for the +Strength or attack in a frenzy - but rather for Supreme Power Attack, which is like Leap Attack Plus. Furthermore, I simplified the weapons quite a bit; I'm a fan of things like Collision on these as well (since you're stacking multipliers on an ubercharge, why not add damage that multiplies?). But this demonstration is simple for a reason.) Does this explain why War Hulk doesn't work well for uberchargers? The key lies in base attack, which the hulk gets 0 of. This also explains why your weapon doesn't really matter; just grab any ol' reach weapon with no feat investment. 2d4 base damage for a medium guisarme, or (let's say) 4d12 for some weapon of obscentiy, when you're involving Power Attack numbers like that, it's literally a drop in the bucket.
#5 abwinningh42 Feb 07, 2012 15:52:50	Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from with that. I sorta overlooked that, sorry, hahah. Not sure if you saw my second post, though. So, you think I should go Barb 1/Fighter 8/ Thrall of K 10/ x1? Edit: Do you think Combat Brute could hold off so that I could get my Thrall feat in? Do you think that's a good PrC choice, Tempest? Also, my Dex is only 12, is Combat Reflexes really worth it to just AoO while flatfooted, or are you suggesting loading level based ability boosts into Dex?
#6 The_Fred Feb 07, 2012 18:38:31	Note that some Gloves of Dexterity, say, or a mere Cat's Grace spell can bump up your Dex by enough points to gain you one or two AoOs with Combat Reflexes. It is really asking for a base Dex of at least 14 though, I would have said.
#7 ObsidianConspiracy Feb 07, 2012 19:36:47	I'm quite surprised at the lack of Frenzied Berserker mention, obviously fighter gets you extra feats, but the ability to trade extra damage on the power attack is godly when you're trying to red mist an opponent. Especially with the errata that gives you +100% power attack damage instead of multipliers :D On another note, is there anywhere I can look at the Thrall of Kostchtchie class... I know it's a bit off topic, but I'm interested now. Since I can't find any dragon magazine material anywhere.
#8 abwinningh42 Feb 07, 2012 20:28:28	I suppose that's true, The_Fred. I'll drop two Ability Boosts into Dex and item/buff it up. The be honest, Obsidian, I'd prefer not to accidentily kill my own party, hahah. (: It is definitely a prime class for the build beyond that.
#9 ObsidianConspiracy Feb 07, 2012 21:10:52	Burn your frenzies beginning of the day? Go into a woods and do it... kill some ants to the best of your ability
#10 Maat_Mons Feb 07, 2012 23:52:46	On another note, is there anywhere I can look at the Thrall of Kostchtchie class... I know it's a bit off topic, but I'm interested now. Since I can't find any dragon magazine material anywhere. It looks like a PDF of Dragon 345 is the only way. You can get one legally here. It's against forum policy for me to direct you to illegal sources, but they're not hard to find.
#11 abwinningh42 Feb 08, 2012 0:41:48	So, I've been trying to decide on my remaining level. I'm not really sure what's completely optimal, but the two I did see were Ranger or Ghost-faced Killer (CAd, 51). Both keep full bab. GfK gives invisibility for 1 round once per day. It's not crazy awesome, but could have it's uses. Ranger ups Reflex save and gives Favored Enemy (Arcane Hunter, maybe?) and Track. What do you guys think? Or am I missing something blatantly obvious?
#12 The_Fred Feb 08, 2012 3:40:03	When you get to that point, pretty much any full BAB class. Probably the best you'll get is a save boost, e.g. Hexblade for +2 Will (non-good though). You could also consider the Wolf Totem Barbarian variant from UA, though it's unlikely a sane DM would let you take that and the CC Lion Totem variant (though technically they're not mutually exclusive) - that would give you Improved Trip as a bonus feat.
#13 abwinningh42 Feb 08, 2012 10:03:02	Oh, thanks, The_Fred. My Will save could definitely use it. Yeah, hahah, no dual barbarian unfortunately. As far as my last couple of feats go, I was thinking Blazing Berserker (Sandstorm) and Instantaneous Rage (CW). That way, I can avoid big bad fire spells instantly, Is that worth two feats though? I also thought about Reckless Rage (RoS)...
#14 Count_Von_CoC Feb 08, 2012 15:57:04	Other options to consider would be Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge from the Eberron Campaign Setting. They allow you to deal extra dice of damage on a charge, based on your size. They're not really optimized feats, though... EDIT: There are also a couple feats that let you change direction during a charge that you might find useful. One is in the XPH, the other is in CAdv (IIRC). I'll try to look them up & post names in a bit if nobody beats me to it.
#15 aelryinth Feb 08, 2012 18:55:11	One thing not mentioned. The major drawback of the War Hulk, his +0 BAB advance, can be mostly compensated for with a Skilled Weapon, that gives the wielder at least Medium BAB (or +7 over ten levels for the Warhulk). Which will probably really change the numbers put up above. Now, the total absence of skill points is something else. ==Aelryinth
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 08, 2012 19:31:52	The major drawback of the War Hulk, his +0 BAB advance, can be mostly compensated for with a Skilled Weapon, that gives the wielder at least Medium BAB (or +7 over ten levels for the Warhulk). Which will probably really change the numbers put up above. Now, the total absence of skill points is something else. The inability to address the war hulk's skill restrictions is kind of ironic when using a weapon enchantment called "skillful".
#17 abwinningh42 Feb 09, 2012 3:26:41	So, this is what I've ended up with. Wild Arctic Goliath - Giant (Cold) Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 7/Thrall of Kostchtchie 10/Hexblade 1 Str 32 Fort 26 AC 32 Dex 22 (16) Ref 16 Con 22 Will 13 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 [sblock=Level Progression] Traits: Quick, Musclebound Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable Feats are bold. Class Features are underlined. ACF's are in italics. Bonus feats in (Parentheses) 01 Fighter Knockback, (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Imp. Bull Rush) 02 Barbarian [u]Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy 1/day, Lion Totem[/u] 03 Fighter Extra Rage [u]Dungeoncrasher[/u] Level Adjustment Buyoff 04 Fighter 05 Fighter (Leap Attack) 06 Fighter Shocktrooper 07 Fighter [u]Dungeoncrasher[/u] 08 Fighter 09 Fighter Thrall to Demon: Kostchtchie, (Imp. Sunder) 10 Thrall Disfigured, +2 Str 11 Thrall Rage 2/day, resist cold 10 12 Thrall Wrathful Rage 13 Thrall Thick Skin, +2 Str 14 Thrall Rage 3/day, resist cold 20 15 Thrall Unfettered Anger, +2 Con 16 Thrall Fiendish Rage 17 Thrall Rage 4/day, resist cold 30, +2 Str 18 Thrall Summon Hound of Kostchtchie 19 Thrall Wrathful Apotheosis, +2 Str, +2 Con 20 Hexblade Hexblade's Curse [/sblock[/b] Equipment +5 Huge Keen/Ghost Touch/Valorous/Parrying Glaive 3d8 + 21 19-20/x3 Reach +5 Huge Goliath Greathammer 4d6 + 21 20/x4 +5 Nimble/Maneuvering Heavy Plate +14 AC +2 Max Dex -0 ACP +5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield +7 AC +2 Max Dex -1 ACP Crystal Mask of Dread +10 Intimidate Periapt of Proof Against Poison Cloak of Resistance (+5) Ring of Protection (+5) Ring of Sustenance Gloves of Dexterity (+6) Belt of Many Pockets Sandals of Springing +10 Jump
#18 Count_Von_CoC Feb 09, 2012 7:47:02	Why do you have Huge weapons? Is there something that increases you size to Large besides Mountain Rage? If you read the description for Mountain Rage again, you'll notice that it doesn't allow you to keep your Powerful Build while raging, you just become a Large creature.
#19 abwinningh42 Feb 11, 2012 10:50:34	Yes, the 10th level of the Thrall of Kostchtchie makes you Large sized, effectively allowing me to use huge weapons and making me huge when I rage, depending on interpretation. So, there's a Pathfinder game starting up around here sometime soon, and I'm curious. How compatible is this with PF?
#20 aelryinth Feb 11, 2012 15:58:58	No goliaths. No Pounce except for higher level barbs. No Leap Attack. No shock trooper. No suuglins. No mountain rage. No PrC of Kotschtie. In other words, not compatible at all. You could house-rule the lot in, of course, but PF did try to stop some of the total silliness out there, especially with size abuse. ===Aelryinth
#21 Maat_Mons Feb 11, 2012 18:04:15	Your best-case scenario is that the DM allows you to use 3.5 material when there isn't a direct update in Pathfinder. Even then, using 3.5 alternative class features for the Pathfinder version of classes might not fly. The Pathfinder version of power attack has a lower limit on the penalty you can take.
#22 abwinningh42 Feb 11, 2012 18:33:19	Alright, thank you guys. (: Seriously, this is one of my favorite 3.5 builds to date.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

abwinningh42

Feb 07, 2012 0:13:38

Hey, guys.
I realize I've posted a thread similar to this before, but I'm working on a similar character and would like some extra knowledge on the subject.
I can use nearly all 3.5 fluff. More questionable material is subject to the DM however (but he's fairly liberal).
Thank you guys for all the help in the past! And thank you again for the future assistance! (:
Special Thanks to Tempest_Stormwind, Dictum_Mortuum, and aelryinth!

Wild Arctic Goliath
Raw Rolls - Beginning Stats
18 Str 24
14 Dex 12
13 Con 17
12 Int 10
12 Wis 12
12 Cha 8

Wild and Arctic are Templates from Dragon Magazine #306

Show

Traits: Quick, Musclebound
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

01 Fighter Power Attack, Tireless, Imp. Bull Rush, Imp. Sunder
02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem
03 Fighter Extra Rage, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sugliin LA Buyoff
04 Fighter
05 Fighter Leap Attack
06 Fighter Sugliin Mastery
07 Fighter Shocktrooper

Maat_Mons

Feb 07, 2012 11:59:37

A sugliin deals 9 points of damage on average. A glaive deals 5.5 points of damage on average. Gaining 3.5 damage for 2 feats isn't spectacular.

If you can get it allowed, the thrall of Kostchtchie (Dragon 345, p27) would be my choice over war hulk. It provides +8 str and +4 con instead of +20 str, but it provides full base attack bonus, which allows for better charging power attacks. It also increases your size by 1 category at 10th-level. Presumably, you'll then be huge when raging, though the wording is funny.

You don't appear to be using the dungeoncrasher alternative class feature (Dungeonscape) for fighter. It replaces two fighter feats and causes you to deal 8d6+3*str damage when you bull rush someone into a wall.

As a goliath, you qualify for the knockback feat (Races of Stone), which lets you make a free bull rush after a successful melee attack.

abwinningh42

Feb 07, 2012 14:05:38

Thanks, Maat!
So...

Show

Traits: Quick, Musclebound
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

01 Fighter Power Attack, Thrall to Demon (Kostchtchie), Imp. Bull Rush
02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem
03 Fighter Extra Rage ACF: Dungeoncrasher LA Buyoff
04 Fighter
05 Fighter Leap Attack
06 Fighter Shocktrooper
07 Fighter ACF: Dungeon Crasher
08 Thrall
09 Thrall Knockback
10 Thrall
11 Thrall
12 Thrall Feat
13 Thrall
14 Thrall
15 Thrall Feat
16 Thrall
17 Thrall

Tempest_Stormwind

Feb 07, 2012 14:08:20

Seconding Maat's suggestions. The sugliin is one of those "looks good, but sucks" weapons, since you need to spend feats to even use it. The fact that they thought they could balance it by giving it cripplingly slow action costs to use shows to what lengths you'd have to go to use it.

Similarly, War Hulk is, in general, a trap. There are very rare circumstances where it's worth it; ubercharging most certainly isn't one of them. The main reason is that... well, let me show you.

Let's take an ubercharge chassis like yours up to level 10, with modifications underlined:
(Note: your weapon is now a guisarme, not a sugliin.)
01 Fighter Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Knockback, Combat Reflexes
02 Barbarian ACF: Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem
03 Fighter Extra Rage, [Dungeoncrasher I] LA Buyoff
04 Fighter
05 Fighter Leap Attack
06 Fighter Shock Trooper
07 Fighter [Dungeoncrasher II]
08 Fighter
09 Fighter Improved Sunder, Combat Brute
10 ANY_FULL_BASE_ATTACK (it doesn't matter which, and it's not likely to get you another feat; you've got all you need)

These modifications allow you to act as a three-pronged combatant: You ubercharge on your turn, then act as an AoO tank when it isn't your turn, and through it all you monkey with enemy positions via Bull Rush (which, if you're indoors, turns you into a wrecking ball). It's actually alarmingly easy to get all of these components in the same build quite early on, which you're seeing here.

Consider two followups to this. One of them is another 10 levels of Fighter. (Hell, NPC WARRIOR would work here too; all I need is full base attack to show my point.) The other is 10 levels of War Hulk (perhaps dealying one of the feats for the Cleave prerequisite, and bribing the DM to get him to ignore the size requirement: Goliaths are MEDIUM creatures, and Powerful Build lets them treat themselves as large for a VERY specific list of abilities, with prerequisites not being among them. They can take *some* Large-prereq abilities, but all of those explicitly say they work with Powerful Build (i.e. Knockback); this isn't a generic rule.).

Note that, vitally, the base attack bonus column of the War Hulk is 0. This means that CHASSIS 10 / War Hulk 10 has a base attack bonus of 10 (i.e. two attacks per round), even though you'll have a strength of 49 (60 at absolute best with every item in the game that directly boosts Strength). His normal attack bonus (just swinging) is +35/+30, modified by his weapon, and deal 2d4+38 base damage before magic weapons kick in. However, his UBERCHARGES work out to +37/+32 with 2d4+38+40 (on the first charge; subsequent charges increase to 2d4+38+60 due to Combat Brute), since he only has 10 points of base attack to funnel into things. He can increase this number in other ways, the most common of which is the Valorous weapon enhancement... but even that would just change the charge damage to 4d4+76+80 or 4d4+76+120. So let's give him a +1 Valorous guisarme loaded up with Greater Magic Weapon (+5/+5). Against AC 36 (mean AC for CR 20), he won't miss except on nat 1s, so I'll exclude that from the equation. This means his expected damage is 176 *2 hits on the first charge and 216*2 hits on the second.

His one big advantage here is that he can use Massive Swing to spread the pain around. Let's grant him that, and look at what just 10 levels of Fighter would have bought him.

Those 10 levels raise him to Fighter 18 at least, which allows him to spend his 5 new feats on Focus / Spec / G.Focus / G. Spec / Mastery and his 18th level feat on Supremacy, if you want, perhaps grabbing Improved Trip and Robilar's Gambit along the way. That's not insubstantial. But for now, to show my point, let's assume he blows them all on Toughness.

CHASSIS 10 / Fighter +10 has a base attack bonus of 20 (four attacks per round). His Strength is 20 lower than the war hulk's (40), but the 10 extra points of base attack mean that he attacks at +35/+30/+25/+20 before weapons, dealing 2d4+22 with a nonmagical guisarme. It looks worse... until he pounces. His basic ubercharge works out to +37/+32/+27/+22, for 2d4+22+80 on the first charge and 2d4+22+120... with a nonmagical guisarme. Let's give him the same weapon as our example one upthere (a +1 Valorous guisarme with Greater Magic Weapon), and we see that it becomes +42/+37/+32/+27, with 4d4+54+160 on the first charge and 4d4+54+240 on the second. Since those attack bonuses (which do *NOT* assume any of the focus feats) will have two automatic hits, followed by a 17/20 chance to hit (4 or higher hits 36 on a +32) and then a 12/20 chance to hit (9 or higher hits 36 on a +27), our expected damage is 224*(2+0.85+0.6) = 772.8 on the first hit, and 304*(2+0.85+0.6) = 1048.8 expected damage on the followup charge.

Incidentally, the bonus damage from Power Attack (the serious source of damage on the second build here) will continue to apply on all your AoOs. The Power Attack number is the third one listed in each expression above. As long as you're able to charge (to keep your AB up due to Shock Trooper), you will find that extra base attack results in far more deadly expected damage. You're hitting far more frequently (more attacks) and those hits are doing more damage than a freaking war hulk as a result.

It's also quite possible to work in Sweeping Strike into a build like this, costing you only one point of base attack, and that's almost as good as the swing abilities.

(I just noticed I left Rage out of the table, but that doesn't actually skew things all that much. I also left off the other other ubercharge route designed to make DMs cry: Frenzied Berserker. Not for the +Strength or attack in a frenzy - but rather for Supreme Power Attack, which is like Leap Attack Plus. Furthermore, I simplified the weapons quite a bit; I'm a fan of things like Collision on these as well (since you're stacking multipliers on an ubercharge, why not add damage that multiplies?). But this demonstration is simple for a reason.)

Does this explain why War Hulk doesn't work well for uberchargers? The key lies in base attack, which the hulk gets 0 of.

This also explains why your weapon doesn't really matter; just grab any ol' reach weapon with no feat investment. 2d4 base damage for a medium guisarme, or (let's say) 4d12 for some weapon of obscentiy, when you're involving Power Attack numbers like that, it's literally a drop in the bucket.

abwinningh42

Feb 07, 2012 15:52:50

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from with that. I sorta overlooked that, sorry, hahah.

Not sure if you saw my second post, though.
So, you think I should go Barb 1/Fighter 8/ Thrall of K 10/ x1?

Edit:
Do you think Combat Brute could hold off so that I could get my Thrall feat in? Do you think that's a good PrC choice, Tempest?
Also, my Dex is only 12, is Combat Reflexes really worth it to just AoO while flatfooted, or are you suggesting loading level based ability boosts into Dex?

The_Fred

Feb 07, 2012 18:38:31

Note that some Gloves of Dexterity, say, or a mere Cat's Grace spell can bump up your Dex by enough points to gain you one or two AoOs with Combat Reflexes. It is really asking for a base Dex of at least 14 though, I would have said.

ObsidianConspiracy

Feb 07, 2012 19:36:47

I'm quite surprised at the lack of Frenzied Berserker mention, obviously fighter gets you extra feats, but the ability to trade extra damage on the power attack is godly when you're trying to red mist an opponent. Especially with the errata that gives you +100% power attack damage instead of multipliers :D

On another note, is there anywhere I can look at the Thrall of Kostchtchie class... I know it's a bit off topic, but I'm interested now. Since I can't find any dragon magazine material anywhere.

abwinningh42

Feb 07, 2012 20:28:28

I suppose that's true, The_Fred. I'll drop two Ability Boosts into Dex and item/buff it up.

The be honest, Obsidian, I'd prefer not to accidentily kill my own party, hahah. (: It is definitely a prime class for the build beyond that.

ObsidianConspiracy

Feb 07, 2012 21:10:52

Burn your frenzies beginning of the day? Go into a woods and do it... kill some ants to the best of your ability

#10

Maat_Mons

Feb 07, 2012 23:52:46

On another note, is there anywhere I can look at the Thrall of Kostchtchie class... I know it's a bit off topic, but I'm interested now. Since I can't find any dragon magazine material anywhere.

It looks like a PDF of Dragon 345 is the only way. You can get one legally here. It's against forum policy for me to direct you to illegal sources, but they're not hard to find.

#11

abwinningh42

Feb 08, 2012 0:41:48

So, I've been trying to decide on my remaining level.

I'm not really sure what's completely optimal, but the two I did see were Ranger or Ghost-faced Killer (CAd, 51).
Both keep full bab. GfK gives invisibility for 1 round once per day. It's not crazy awesome, but could have it's uses.

Ranger ups Reflex save and gives Favored Enemy (Arcane Hunter, maybe?) and Track.

What do you guys think? Or am I missing something blatantly obvious?

#12

The_Fred

Feb 08, 2012 3:40:03

When you get to that point, pretty much any full BAB class. Probably the best you'll get is a save boost, e.g. Hexblade for +2 Will (non-good though). You could also consider the Wolf Totem Barbarian variant from UA, though it's unlikely a sane DM would let you take that *and* the CC Lion Totem variant (though technically they're not mutually exclusive) - that would give you Improved Trip as a bonus feat.

#13

abwinningh42

Feb 08, 2012 10:03:02

Oh, thanks, The_Fred. My Will save could definitely use it.
Yeah, hahah, no dual barbarian unfortunately.

As far as my last couple of feats go, I was thinking Blazing Berserker (Sandstorm) and Instantaneous Rage (CW). That way, I can avoid big bad fire spells instantly, Is that worth two feats though?

I also thought about Reckless Rage (RoS)...

#14

Count_Von_CoC

Feb 08, 2012 15:57:04

Other options to consider would be Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge from the Eberron Campaign Setting. They allow you to deal extra dice of damage on a charge, based on your size. They're not really optimized feats, though...

EDIT: There are also a couple feats that let you change direction during a charge that you might find useful. One is in the XPH, the other is in CAdv (IIRC). I'll try to look them up & post names in a bit if nobody beats me to it.

#15

aelryinth

Feb 08, 2012 18:55:11

One thing not mentioned.

The major drawback of the War Hulk, his +0 BAB advance, can be mostly compensated for with a Skilled Weapon, that gives the wielder at least Medium BAB (or +7 over ten levels for the Warhulk).

Which will probably really change the numbers put up above.

Now, the total absence of skill points is something else.

==Aelryinth

#16

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 08, 2012 19:31:52

The major drawback of the War Hulk, his +0 BAB advance, can be mostly compensated for with a Skilled Weapon, that gives the wielder at least Medium BAB (or +7 over ten levels for the Warhulk).

Which will probably really change the numbers put up above.

Now, the total absence of skill points is something else.

The inability to address the war hulk's skill restrictions is kind of ironic when using a weapon enchantment called "skillful".

#17

abwinningh42

Feb 09, 2012 3:26:41

So, this is what I've ended up with.

Wild Arctic Goliath - Giant (Cold)
Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 7/Thrall of Kostchtchie 10/Hexblade 1

Str 32 Fort 26 AC 32
Dex 22 (16) Ref 16
Con 22 Will 13
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

[sblock=Level Progression]
Traits: Quick, Musclebound
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

Feats are bold.
Class Features are underlined. ACF's are in italics.
Bonus feats in (Parentheses)

01 Fighter Knockback, (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Imp. Bull Rush)
02 Barbarian [u]Mountain Rage, Whirling Frenzy 1/day, Lion Totem[/u]
03 Fighter Extra Rage [u]Dungeoncrasher[/u] Level Adjustment Buyoff
04 Fighter
05 Fighter (Leap Attack)
06 Fighter Shocktrooper
07 Fighter [u]Dungeoncrasher[/u]
08 Fighter
09 Fighter Thrall to Demon: Kostchtchie, (Imp. Sunder)
10 Thrall Disfigured, +2 Str
11 Thrall Rage 2/day, resist cold 10
12 Thrall Wrathful Rage
13 Thrall Thick Skin, +2 Str
14 Thrall Rage 3/day, resist cold 20
15 Thrall Unfettered Anger, +2 Con
16 Thrall Fiendish Rage
17 Thrall Rage 4/day, resist cold 30, +2 Str
18 Thrall Summon Hound of Kostchtchie
19 Thrall Wrathful Apotheosis, +2 Str, +2 Con
20 Hexblade Hexblade's Curse
[/sblock[/b]

Equipment

+5 Huge Keen/Ghost Touch/Valorous/Parrying Glaive
3d8 + 21 19-20/x3 Reach
+5 Huge Goliath Greathammer
4d6 + 21 20/x4
+5 Nimble/Maneuvering Heavy Plate
+14 AC +2 Max Dex -0 ACP
+5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield
+7 AC +2 Max Dex -1 ACP
Crystal Mask of Dread +10 Intimidate
Periapt of Proof Against Poison
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Sustenance
Gloves of Dexterity (+6)
Belt of Many Pockets
Sandals of Springing +10 Jump

#18

Count_Von_CoC

Feb 09, 2012 7:47:02

Why do you have Huge weapons? Is there something that increases you size to Large besides Mountain Rage?
If you read the description for Mountain Rage again, you'll notice that it doesn't allow you to keep your Powerful Build while raging, you just become a Large creature.

#19

abwinningh42

Feb 11, 2012 10:50:34

Yes, the 10th level of the Thrall of Kostchtchie makes you Large sized, effectively allowing me to use huge weapons and making me huge when I rage, depending on interpretation.

So, there's a Pathfinder game starting up around here sometime soon, and I'm curious.
How compatible is this with PF?

#20

aelryinth

Feb 11, 2012 15:58:58

No goliaths.
No Pounce except for higher level barbs.
No Leap Attack.
No shock trooper.
No suuglins.
No mountain rage.
No PrC of Kotschtie.

In other words, not compatible at all.

You could house-rule the lot in, of course, but PF did try to stop some of the total silliness out there, especially with size abuse.

===Aelryinth

#21

Maat_Mons

Feb 11, 2012 18:04:15

Your best-case scenario is that the DM allows you to use 3.5 material when there isn't a direct update in Pathfinder. Even then, using 3.5 alternative class features for the Pathfinder version of classes might not fly.

The Pathfinder version of power attack has a lower limit on the penalty you can take.

#22

abwinningh42

Feb 11, 2012 18:33:19

Alright, thank you guys. (:

Seriously, this is one of my favorite 3.5 builds to date.