Good, bad, ugly? My first gish. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 littlekid Apr 09, 2008 17:24:26	Okay, so here's my first attempt at a gish... Show As long as I can list the source, and it's in a book, I can use it. Starting level will be 6, with WBL standards. I am unsure of the campaign. I want to be a charger with a good portion of buffing/utility/battlefield control. Stats were rolled using DM's method, I ended up with 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, 18.
#2 archerpwr Apr 09, 2008 17:37:59	You're missing spontaneous divination and runesmith. Drop the fighter level and grab one: Barb 1/ Wiz 4/ Runesmith or Wiz 2/ EK 1/ AC 5/ EK+7
#3 grundle Apr 09, 2008 18:27:44	where's arcane strike? are you drunk? ;) quicken, extend, persistent, practiced spellcaster - all good options for a gish
#4 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 19:00:37	Runesmith was a bad miss, but I don't think you should completely drop Fighter for it. Heavy Armor Proficiency is needed to qualify for Runesmith, and Fighter gives that while Barbarian doesn't, so Fighter is basically saving you two net feats. Also, the Large Dwarven Waraxe is counter-productive. Sure you can use it, but you take a -2 penalty on attacks for a net +1.5 damage over a Greataxe. With the Valorous enhancement, Leap Attack, pounce, and so on, that's just not practical. Finally, I'm more of a fan of Quicken Spell than Persistent Spell for Gishes. Fewer feats used and less level adjustment to eat. Oh yeah, and then there's Arcane Strike.
#5 archerpwr Apr 09, 2008 19:15:12	Runesmith was a bad miss, but I don't think you should completely drop Fighter for it. Heavy Armor Proficiency is needed to qualify for Runesmith, and Fighter gives that while Barbarian doesn't, so Fighter is basically saving you two net feats. Good catch. There a barbarian variant that gives heavy proficiency? I wouldn't use it post AC.
#6 littlekid Apr 09, 2008 20:43:28	Also, the Large Dwarven Waraxe is counter-productive. Sure you can use it, but you take a -2 penalty on attacks for a net +1.5 damage over a Greataxe. With the Valorous enhancement, Leap Attack, pounce, and so on, that's just not practical. A dwarven waraxe is a one-handed weapon, making it large size would make it two-handed, would it not? edit. Also, by going fighter, I can get Shock Trooper a little quicker, completing the real power in a charge build. Maybe switch out Leap Attack for Arcane Strike, and pick up Leap Attack at 8 and Shock Trooper at 9? another edit. Runesmith loses BAB, and I want him to be a fighter first, caster second. Besides, I can get mithral twilight fullplate with thistledown(and -10% ASF from spellsword) to kill my total ASF. And spont. divination means taking another level of wizard, again, losing BAB. one last edit. I can't even get Arcane Strike until 7th level, because I won't have 3rd level spells until then...so I'd have to wait until 9th to grab it, but I'll make sure to do that.
#7 littlekid Apr 09, 2008 20:53:47	double post...
#8 stackingzerglings Apr 09, 2008 22:11:02	Where is persist spell located?
#9 x-codes Apr 09, 2008 22:32:10	A dwarven waraxe is a one-handed weapon, making it large size would make it two-handed, would it not? Yes, and it also applies a -2 penalty to attack rolls for using an improperly-sized weapon. Compared to a Medium-Size Greataxe, you get 2.5 more damage per hit on average, but your PA ratio with Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon is 1:8, meaning it's far more effective to simply Power Attack for -2 with a Medium-Size Greataxe than it is to use a Large Dwarven Waraxe, especially considering that you can choose not to power attack in the event of facing high AC targets. another edit. Runesmith loses BAB, and I want him to be a fighter first, caster second. Besides, I can get mithral twilight fullplate with thistledown(and -10% ASF from spellsword) to kill my total ASF. And spont. divination means taking another level of wizard, again, losing BAB. One point of BAB in a build with well over +16 BAB is well worth the 12250gp you save at level 6 and the 25250gp you save at level 20 by virtue of not having to drop so much money of mithral twilight thistledown full plate. You even get to ditch that level of Spellsword if you so choose.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

littlekid

Apr 09, 2008 17:24:26

Okay, so here's my first attempt at a gish...

As long as I can list the source, and it's in a book, I can use it.
Starting level will be 6, with WBL standards.
I am unsure of the campaign.
I want to be a charger with a good portion of buffing/utility/battlefield control.
Stats were rolled using DM's method, I ended up with 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, 18.

archerpwr

Apr 09, 2008 17:37:59

You're missing spontaneous divination and runesmith. Drop the fighter level and grab one:
Barb 1/ Wiz 4/ Runesmith or Wiz 2/ EK 1/ AC 5/ EK+7

grundle

Apr 09, 2008 18:27:44

where's arcane strike? are you drunk? ;)

quicken, extend, persistent, practiced spellcaster - all good options for a gish

x-codes

Apr 09, 2008 19:00:37

Runesmith was a bad miss, but I don't think you should completely drop Fighter for it. Heavy Armor Proficiency is needed to qualify for Runesmith, and Fighter gives that while Barbarian doesn't, so Fighter is basically saving you two net feats.

Also, the Large Dwarven Waraxe is counter-productive. Sure you can use it, but you take a -2 penalty on attacks for a net +1.5 damage over a Greataxe. With the Valorous enhancement, Leap Attack, pounce, and so on, that's just not practical.

Finally, I'm more of a fan of Quicken Spell than Persistent Spell for Gishes. Fewer feats used and less level adjustment to eat.

Oh yeah, and then there's Arcane Strike.

archerpwr

Apr 09, 2008 19:15:12

Runesmith was a bad miss, but I don't think you should completely drop Fighter for it. Heavy Armor Proficiency is needed to qualify for Runesmith, and Fighter gives that while Barbarian doesn't, so Fighter is basically saving you two net feats.

Good catch. There a barbarian variant that gives heavy proficiency? I wouldn't use it post AC.

littlekid

Apr 09, 2008 20:43:28

Also, the Large Dwarven Waraxe is counter-productive. Sure you can use it, but you take a -2 penalty on attacks for a net +1.5 damage over a Greataxe. With the Valorous enhancement, Leap Attack, pounce, and so on, that's just not practical.

A dwarven waraxe is a one-handed weapon, making it large size would make it two-handed, would it not?

edit. Also, by going fighter, I can get Shock Trooper a little quicker, completing the real power in a charge build.

Maybe switch out Leap Attack for Arcane Strike, and pick up Leap Attack at 8 and Shock Trooper at 9?

another edit. Runesmith loses BAB, and I want him to be a fighter first, caster second. Besides, I can get mithral twilight fullplate with thistledown(and -10% ASF from spellsword) to kill my total ASF. And spont. divination means taking another level of wizard, again, losing BAB.

one last edit. I can't even get Arcane Strike until 7th level, because I won't have 3rd level spells until then...so I'd have to wait until 9th to grab it, but I'll make sure to do that.

littlekid

Apr 09, 2008 20:53:47

double post...

stackingzerglings

Apr 09, 2008 22:11:02

Where is persist spell located?

x-codes

Apr 09, 2008 22:32:10

A dwarven waraxe is a one-handed weapon, making it large size would make it two-handed, would it not?

Yes, and it also applies a -2 penalty to attack rolls for using an improperly-sized weapon. Compared to a Medium-Size Greataxe, you get 2.5 more damage per hit on average, but your PA ratio with Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon is 1:8, meaning it's far more effective to simply Power Attack for -2 with a Medium-Size Greataxe than it is to use a Large Dwarven Waraxe, especially considering that you can choose not to power attack in the event of facing high AC targets.

another edit. Runesmith loses BAB, and I want him to be a fighter first, caster second. Besides, I can get mithral twilight fullplate with thistledown(and -10% ASF from spellsword) to kill my total ASF. And spont. divination means taking another level of wizard, again, losing BAB.

One point of BAB in a build with well over +16 BAB is well worth the 12250gp you save at level 6 and the 25250gp you save at level 20 by virtue of not having to drop so much money of mithral twilight thistledown full plate. You even get to ditch that level of Spellsword if you so choose.