I'm thinking about playing a swords dual-wielding character, and I'm hoping I could be pointed in the right direction. The last time I played, the Dervish class just came out, and I know there's been a ton of books focusing on melee classes that's come out since then. Are there any devastating TWF builds that's been made with the arrival of all these new books? Are there any sort of "basic" or cookie-cutter optimized TWF builds? I tried searching the forum to no avail.
I want this character to not have to rely on sneak attacks for damage, so I'm looking for something that doesn't use rogue-ish levels to rely on for extra damage. I also prefer a human or elf type of character. Those are about the only requirements I have really.
Would really appreciate a point in the right direction. Thx!
Elf warblade1/Conjurer5/Jade Phoenix Mage2/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage 7.
Feat swould be: Otherworldly, Somatic Weaponry, Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Arcane Strike and possibly Enshrew Matereal.
While dual-wielding may seem sub-optimal, you get a lot of milage out of abilities that add to your attacks for a round (arcane strike etc.), and you ignore a lot of the weaknesses of twf (versatility and defence).
Its not classic, but it is fun to play, I can promize that.
Since you mentioned dervish, here is a handy reference for it including some TWF builds. The Dervish Handbook
Take Dragonfire Inspiration and all the usual IC boosters, then take lots of Tiger Claw maneuvers and duel wield short swords or kukiris. Splash in a few Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers in for defense and go to town. Boost Xing Mongoose and use Pouncing Charge to shred for lots of damage against anything you can reach.
I'm thinking about the Daggerspell Mage. Using Persistent Wraithstrike could be pretty deadly, unless there's some Errata that I've missed. Another option would be the "I am become Death" build that was linked here. I'm also looking into the Warblade and Swordsage possibilities.
Thanks a lot again!
Spellthief 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Unseen Seer 2/Abjurant Champion 2/Daggerspell Mage 10 (not necessarily all in that order)
works well and can through around ~12d6 of Sneak Attack dice on 8 or more touch attacks a round and cast a spell while she does it. Combine with arcane strike and the right equipment/spells and there isn't much that can take more than a round or two of melee with you.
Try this.
+1
rogue4/swashbuckler16 for full sneak attack damage thanks to the daring outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel on top of insightful strike damage, almost full BAB, and durablity thanks to the swashbuckler's d10 hit dice.
I'm seriously considering a Daggerspell Mage build at the moment. Some nasty damage, especially using the Daggercast ability that allows them to add touch spells into their weapons. I'm kind of surprised there doesn't seem to be many builds floating around that uses DsM. I wonder if there are any touch spells that can do 10d6 damage, hmmmmm.
Combust?
I'm seriously considering a Daggerspell Mage build at the moment. Some nasty damage, especially using the Daggercast ability that allows them to add touch spells into their weapons. I'm kind of surprised there doesn't seem to be many builds floating around that uses DsM. I wonder if there are any touch spells that can do 10d6 damage, hmmmmm.
Daggerspell mage only tosses you 3d6 sneak attack, medium bab, 6+int skills, 9/10 casting, daggercast (less good than just taking quick draw and a spell storing weapon), invocation of the knife (allowing you to deal with both resistance and DR!), double daggercast (worse than spellflower in SC), arcane infusion (worthless), arcane throw (worse than smiting spell), and daggerspell flurry (metamagic effect, instant metamagic, and perpetual options are all better).
All this on top of costing you a worthless feat (weapon focus).
If you're considering daggerspell mage at all just save yourself some pain and use unseen seer instead. Daggerspell mage sucks.
Daggerspell mage only tosses you 3d6 sneak attack, medium bab, 6+int skills, 9/10 casting, daggercast (less good than just taking quick draw and a spell storing weapon), invocation of the knife (allowing you to deal with both resistance and DR!), double daggercast (worse than spellflower in SC), arcane infusion (worthless), arcane throw (worse than smiting spell), and daggerspell flurry (metamagic effect, instant metamagic, and perpetual options are all better).
All this on top of costing you a worthless feat (weapon focus).
If you're considering daggerspell mage at all just save yourself some pain and use unseen seer instead. Daggerspell mage sucks.
Can you explain how spellflower is better than double daggercast? Holding charges in your arms would require unarmed strikes to use. I'm sure my DM would penalize my attack bonus for trying an unarmed attack while wielding weapons.
Daggerspell Flurry seems to save me a high spell slot, so it seems pretty beneficial to me. It's an additional Quickened feat without the high spell slot, which seems really nice. Can you tell me where I can find Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic, and Perpetual Options?
All the other abilities are mildly useful it seems. I don't think any other class allows you to cast spells while wielding two weapons, so it seems pretty good.
Really, the reason the prc appeals to me is because it allows me to be a skill monkey (via Able Learner feat), while giving me crazy damage using TWF and Persistent Wraithstrike (with some Double Daggercast, Quickened spells, Delayed spells as well), and on top of this, if the situation arises where I can't use my blades, I'm still helpful because I'd have a few damaging magic at my disposal.
I do really like that "I am become death" cleric build as well. It's probably stronger than this from a pure power point, but the Daggerspell class seem to have more flavor for me, and seems more fun.
EDIT: Feel free to explain to me why this prc sucks. I honestly just don't really know much about these classes. Not trying to be a jerk and turning down advice, I really just don't understand where you're coming from since I'm basically new to this.
Can you explain how spellflower is better than double daggercast? Holding charges in your arms would require unarmed strikes to use. I'm sure my DM would penalize my attack bonus for trying an unarmed attack while wielding weapons.
Note the reference to maraliths in the spell itself.
Daggerspell Flurry seems to save me a high spell slot, so it seems pretty beneficial to me. It's basically one additional Quickened spell.
Whoopdy crap. You sucked through all those levels for a single notable ability that is worse than what another class gets at third level? Screw that.
All the other abilities are mildly useful it seems. I don't think any other class allows you to cast spells while wielding two weapons, so it seems pretty good.
Check out the gnome quickrazor in RoS and Quickdraw (PHB). Either that or somatic weaponry (don't recall source). It's subpar at best.
Really, the reason the prc appeals to me is because it allows me to be a skill monkey (via Able Learner feat), while giving me crazy damage using TWF and Persistent Wraithstrike (with some Double Daggercast, Quickened spells, Delayed spells as well), and on top of this, if the situation arises where I can't use my blades, I'm still helpful because I'd have a few damaging magic at my disposal.
Unseen seer is better at all of that in every way.
I do really like that "I am become death" cleric build as well. It's probably stronger than this from a pure power point, but the Daggerspell class seem to have more flavor for me, and seems more fun.
EDIT: Feel free to explain to me why this prc sucks. I honestly just don't really know much about these classes. Not trying to be a jerk and turning down advice, I really just don't understand where you're coming from since I'm basically new to this.
I'm not trying to be mean. I'm actually trying to be helpful. Forgive my colorful use of language. Use unseen seer instead though.
I definitely see your point about Daggerspell Flurry. Can you tell me where I can find Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic, and Perpetual Options? Also, what 3rd level ability were you talking about that another prc gives that's better than this?
I also saw what you mean about Somatic Weaponry (it's from CArc), which is pretty badass. If you can explain the questions I have above, I'll probably look elsewhere for a build, heh. Unseen Seer's D4 hit die scares me too much for a melee fighter. I don't really care for their abilities either, especially the penalties to some of those spells. So unless I'm missing something major by not getting Advanced Learning from this class, I probably need to start looking at other possibilities.
Not sure the reference to the maralith helped me. My main concern was that the spellflower spell says if my character touches something with his charged hand, he would basically use up the spell. So if he's grabbing a weapon with a charged hand, I guess that'll go off? Or God forbid my character goes to hug someone, haha.
Moar arms allows for moar charges. And you can use all of them with natural weapon attacks (easy enough to get).
I definitely see your point about Daggerspell Flurry. Can you tell me where I can find Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic, and Perpetual Options? Also, what 3rd level ability were you talking about that another prc gives that's better than this?
Incantatrix is in player's guide to faerun. Swiftblade is an online PrC. You can find a link to it in the handy links at the top of this forum.
I also saw what you mean about Somatic Weaponry (it's from CArc), which is pretty badass. If you can explain the questions I have above, I'll probably look elsewhere for a build, heh. Unseen Seer's D4 hit die scares me too much for a melee fighter. I don't really care for their abilities either, especially the penalties to some of those spells. So unless I'm missing something major by not getting Advanced Learning from this class, I probably need to start looking at other possibilities.
d4 vs d6 is nothing at all noticable. 1 hit point per level? It's seriously never going to matter. The extra feat you save allows you to take minor shapeshift which is BETTER than having 2 con the VAST majority of the time. Advanced learning allows you to pick up hunter's eye for LOTS of sneak attack.
Unseen seer costs less CL, less feats, and gives back better SA. It's just plain better for DPS.
Combust?
Combust only does 2d6 + 1 per CL
In practice, (some of) the abilities Daggerspell Mage gives you are highly useful. While I wouldn't say they are 'better' than the cheese possible with Incantatrix (and you'll notice my build does include a dip into Unseen Seer), they aren't in any way 'useless'.
Daggercast-Unlike the counter suggestion(s) of Somatic Weaponry, Quick Draw, and a Spellstoring weapon, Daggercast doesn't cost you a feat (well, okay, Weapon Focus, I do agree that one hurts a little), and you aren't limited to 3rd level spells. While it may not be mechanically all that much better to deliver a Night's Carress with a knife versus your hand, it's certainly more fun (for me).
Invocation of the Knife-Admittedly, at high levels versus most opponents, this one sucks as written, because of the ER/DR combos most mobs have at those levels and the fact that you're dealing half against both. I would ask your DM for a houserule on it, as I think it's RAI that this ability gets you around ER and the designer was just too bonkers to recognize that DR was just as common and on the same mobs. Without a change, this one is useless.
Double Daggercast-This makes ambush attacks 1/rd affairs if you pick your spells right. If you're playing a rogue/wiz, you're a glass cannon not a G-D wizard, and in many campaigns DM's don't allow you to waltz around persistently shapechanged into a Marilith with non-updated Girrallon's blessing and spellflower active. While the latter is certainly better, that doesn't make double-daggercast ineffective.
Arcane Infusion-Arcane Strike is better. Unless you know your fighting something vulnerable to Fire/Cold/Electricity, you won't be using this one much.
Arcane Throw-This is situationally useful for ambushes or fights where you can't close to melee with the guy you want to hit with one of your touch spells. It's mechanically on par with Arcane Reach from archmage for damage or other malignant touch spells. If you have distance weapons or a spell/ability that increases thrown weapon distance, you increase the useability of this feature. If your build included one of the PrC's that can make personal or other ranges into touch, this becomes abuseable a bit more.
Daggerspell Flurry-Free Quicken as part of a full attack. If you can't find a way to abuse this on your own, well, you aren't thinking clearly enough. (Hint-Spelltheft)
Having written all that...Well, yeah, duh, Incantatrix is still better. If you can get away with persistent spell cheese and all the other options, you'll always be better off that way. But not everyone can, or even WANTS to play that anymore than 'druid 20'.
Unseen Seer is nice, especially as a way to get Hunter's Eye, but I don't see any reason to go past 5 in it. Anything more than that and you're just trading caster levels for sneak attack, and that doesn't seem worth it. My build above can be modified if you really wanted to include both Unseen seer 5 AND Daggerspell Mage 10 and you only lose 1 BAB (but it save's you an otherwise 'worthless' feat). You'll only be looking at an extra d6 or two of sneak attack over my previous build.
The build/PrC does work. I've used it. I've seen others use it. I've seen DM's scratch their heads and wonder how to beat them. I've seen uber mobs drop in a single round to them. I've killed G-D wizards covered in persistent with them. It does work.
If you want to use TWF you want BAB and SA. Unseen seer does that better.
Note: Archer speaking. Got banned for masking or something, so using an alt to help out.
I do have a bit of an alternate suggestion - if you're playing 13th level or higher, play a Duskblade 13/Dervish+. TWF with Arcane Channelling into a Full Attack. Practiced Spellcaster and possibly Illumian to add to caster level for additional damage.
So you want to play a Roguish Caster/TWFer? You go simple...
Rogue 3 (For Penetrating Strike)/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 5...
What the heck are you supposed to spend those last 10 levels on if not DsM?
Five more levels of US takes 2 caster levels away, and No, I don't want to blow a feat on Practiced Spellcaster, nor do I want to spend all my cash on items just so I can cast my non-divs at my real caster level. Arcane Trickster is going to kill my BAB so unless I'm playing a DP caster through some Arcane Disciple hoojoo, I'm going to avoid it.
What's left that's really all that much better than DsM? Are the DSM abilities the 'best in the game'? Certainly not, in fact, as I pointed out above, a few of them downright suck without a houseruling. But they are not 'useless', and they are not simply replaceable with items (spellstoring is not the same thing, neither is smiting spell, and Quicken costs).
The above with DSM 10 can get you ~13d6+ Sneak Attack (after Hunter's Eye). It can do half that even against a creature immune. With 7 touch attacks a round, that's an average (before weapons or spells are included) in the 170 range AT HALF (which will be the MINIMUM you'll be getting), again, BEFORE weapons, strength, weapon bonuses, or spells are included. If that isn't the definition of EFFECTIVE as a GLASS CANNON, I don't know what is.
Is it 'the best you can do'⁚? No. I'm sure that anyone with any time on their hands can come up with something better. But it does WORK, and work WELL in most campaigns.
So now I'm looking at other options, like perhaps going Bard/Rogue, or Factotum, or Bard/Rogue/Sublime Chord, etc. My DM wants the character to be the face of the party, so he'll definitely need charisma. Maybe a Sorcerer/Rogue even. TWF is mainly there for flavor. I don't need for it to do massive damage anymore. It's more of a thing that the character will use when push comes to shove kind of thing for the whole party, like when spells run out, or if he's attacked at close range by surprise, things like that.
I've been doing lots of reading up on all sorts of "handbook", from rogues, to bards, to factotum, even the swiftblade. Still coming up empty.
In order of importance:
Skill monkey/Trap Disarm
Charismatic (basically Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc.)
TWF
It's probably asking for too many things, so I may have to tweak it a bit. Bard and Factotum seem like the best options because this character really does reek of jack-of-all-trades.
If you're primarily wanting a Skillmokey, go with Factotum.
If you're primarily wanting *utility* rather than skills, go with a caster (Wizard or Archivist would be my suggestion) - good use of spells bypasses the need for skills...if it's the right spell or situation.
If you're in a large party, a Bard is wonderful, as his buffing ability just compound their power in larger groups. However, if you're wanting to be good in more ways than just your main focus, I would personally go for Factotum.
...of course, you could always take the best of all the worlds. Factotum 1/Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 with Able Learner.
Is there a way so that I can make Diplomacy checks by using Int instead of Cha? Or perhaps some other ability score? I'm asking because the only reason I've chosen bard is mainly for that Cha ability.
It has CHA, it has trap search and disarm, it has good enough skill points to fill in the Rogue role, it can make wands of Persistent Wraithstrike, it can use wands as a pistol. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. w00t
Now... anyone know how I can get Diplomacy and/or Intimidate as a class skill without dipping into another class? I wonder if there's a feat for it.... Artificer 20 seems to be the way to go I think.
There's apparantly also a feat from Faerun called "Cosmopolitan" that I've seen referenced that may help with extra class skills, but it's not from a book I'm familiar with.
Artificer is good if you're into paperwork. Very good.
You pick a non-class skill, get a +2 bonus to it, and it's always a class skill.