been reading through the grapple rules and decided on wanting to design a proper grappler, a nice charge/pounce/full attack/grapple combo-er who then decides to lob his foe as a weapon at the nearest unlucky bugger.
trying some stuff in my head I can basically imagine a few things;
Strength - Obviously important for damage, for BAB, for grapple checks, for throwing your enemy quite far etc.
(Toss Your Foe: Make an opposed grapple check as a melee attack. If you succeed, you can literally pick up your foe (provided you can lift your foe's weight). Make a Strength check; if your result is at least 10, you toss your foe 5 feet. For every 5 points your Strength check result exceeds 10, you toss your foe another 5 feet, to a maximum of 25 feet.)
Class - I'm not a fan of druid/clerics nor am I really a fan of druid/cleric grapplers, I appreciate a good strength domain balor nimbus cleric or a wildshaped druid, but its not what I'm going for.
Monks and Barbarians. good obviously...but needs some PrCing
The Black Blood Cultist seems like an obvious choice, The Hulking Hurler seems like it would work. maybe even some serious tweaking to the Master Thrower? sounds like fun eh.
I know the obvious shouts from the rooftops, the Swordsage; Setting Sun has some HILARIOUS throws. but the tome of battle is quite frowned upon in my group, ever since my drunken tumble unarmed swordsage.
Other things for flavour obviously grappling is awesome, you can shutdown people. cover the wizards mouth, negate the fighters AC, drown people, throw them off cliffs....and land on them.
but what do you do to that guy juuuust out of reach? I'm thinking "throw anything" maybe get some weird synergy with master thrower....throwing tricks on people....maybe even WITH people. quick draw and throw a dagger as you enclose to melee.... or maybe some kind of casting, a dimensional jaunt here, a shadow jump there.
basically I'm looking for someone to help me merge all my ideas together, to help me form a charging, grappling, throwing maniac.
I'm also very open to skill tricks from complete scoundrel, move like an animal....grapple like an animal, without wildshaping, wolf in sheeps clothing.
Although I'm not completely against lycanthrophy.
So, optimized Grapple Master Thrower? or a Throw Anything Black Blood Cultist? lets see
any race with powerful build
earths embrace + 1d12 damage is always nice
monks belt
razor & spiked armor (adds to grapple damage)
is there an ability to thwart freedom of movement? If there is get it!
grease yourself +10 oppose grapple attempts against you
some ability/spell to thwart the +10 the grease spell gives.
stone grasp spell? I think gives +6 grapple, I forgot from which class, could make nice magic item?
1 pretty effective yet just dirty underhanded & evil "trick" combo... had a
spiked armor grapple specialist that set his PC up with a very specific & unique attack. He would, once grapple initiated, trigger a dig spell that also filled hole up with water (magic item), immediately under him, since the target was in a grapple no reflex save allowed vs fall. The grappler had free action and water breathing, so fighting / grappling under water = no penalties for him, the victim often not so lucky. It was almost a sure death. The grapple feat can offer pretty good damage and is the absolute bane to most classes. So many times Ive seen a fighter or Barbarian who was a melee god just get worked by a good grapple. Just watch for the close quarters feat, they can hurt, although most people dont have it. I think his armor had some tentacles that also grappled? Look into that, definetly sweet.
The big prob is going to be finding items/spells/feats to help and to somehow
counter freedom of movement, dont worry about rogues and the escape artist skill, very few will have 1/2 in escape artists as you will in your grapple to hit
So look for items / spells that boost grapple.
Anyways reaping mauler is a prestige class from a couple of years ago, dont know if its still available?
Blight
the tasty being the sleeper hold and the devastating grapple, however if you put the sleeper on successfully you could coup de grace a unconcious (read helpless) target anyway. gaining improved grapple seems weird, as you'd get it at ecl 6 if you went directly into it, however it does save you a feat/allow you to go barbarian rather than monk, gaining rage...but gaining improved grapple twice, once from barbarian bear totem (+4 grapple whilst raging is a must) and once from reaping mauler...
barbarian (bear totem methinks) 5
Reaping mauler 5
the special little grapple moves are nice. the rage is good, the BAB is full, the saves are high. rages a day are what I'm curious about atm, and is whats stopping the old Fighter 2 Barbarian 3.
he would definately not be a bad little grappler but theres probably a more optimal way to put him together.
as far as items go, I think something with an antimagic field would be a godsend. because lets face it, you're inside an antimagic field with a grapple hungry barbarian....you die. or you're throwing spells hoping to slow him down...they'd all fail. the only way to live would be to teleport away as soon as you saw him coming. with the right feats for a nice pounce charge, those odds are slimmer. of course if you can target the antimagic field onto the wizard first well now...its all over. especially if the field moves with the wizard.
so basically, like all melee. he needs an antimagic item, as far as avoiding freedom of movement...the antimagic would work aswell there...but its not like I can have the damn thing permenanced eh? dispel magic again works on freedom of movement....but its not an umlimited solution really is it?
that being said, if your mage can't dispell it, you can't dispell it and you fail the grapple every round....nothing is stopping you switching to the other enemy squishy....if every enemy has it...then the DM is out to get you. theres always a reason to have a back up plan....like instead of charge, pouncing a fullattack with an improved grab. just keep smacking the full attacks on and on, also, freedom of movement doesn't prevent tripping etc. so...it hurts your main feature....but being a big stupid fighter doesn't mean you have to be dumb.
same would go for close quarters... which is why I'd like a backup.
gonna look into a barbarian/hulking hurler or master thrower... see if theres another way I can get those tasty grapple moves. and raise the cap of distance you could throw a person...being able to throw heavy rocks miles, and a gnome sorcerer only 25 ft seems odd.
1) Dwarfs cant swim worth beans
2) Cant throw Gnomes
maybe its because Gnomes are so good at fighting giants its like you trying to throw a pitbull clamped on your arm. The real question is if the Gnome is unconscience/dead or otherwise helpless could you then throw him as an object?
BB
Go with something like:
Half-Ogre
Fighter 6 (dungeoncrasher ACF)
Hulking Hurler 2 (for throw anything)
Monk
Drunken Master (for improvised weapons)
You can throw him, smash him against the walls, beat his friends down with him, then throw him out the window
(but he'll probably be able to fly so you'll want to stop that somehow)Edit: Oh and Suel Arcanamarc for dispelling strike maybe?
as far as countering the flying away, you don't throw him out the window, you jump out with him, cover his mouth, hold his arms, hope he cushions the pavement. we ARE the big stupid fighter right?
Jotunbrud - might be a good way to count as large for human, large + bonus skill/feats, sounds like a win for hulking hurler. I don't think my DM could argue this feat.
Hulking Hurler really is amazing for a three level class....the only annoyance is the short range on what you can hurl. its like 10 or 15 ft for a large character.
picking people up and running around with them though, thats the fun part. smashing them against a wall and then throwing them is basically what I want the character to do....I just, think theres a way to throw them 50ft...I just have to find it.... ;)
I'll look into the Suel Arcanamarc.
I think the build would look something like this so far.
Barbarian (bear totem) 5, Hulking Hurler 3. (then some way to either give more distance with throwing people about, more rages/day, gain improvised weapons or more options actually inside the grapple.)
How about the Fling Enemy Feat from Races of Stone?
There is also another one but I can't remember what/where it is..
You can write your own AMF scrolls - as ritual scarrings. Gets greater rage, damage reduction and stuff.
225-250 gp and 9-10 xp per AMF are unbeatable.
Requires a berserker's lodge feat, such as pounce with light weapons (mini-charge + grapple).
Is kinda regional PrC, however; Jotunbrud is from a different region, so those wouldn't work together normally.
Fling ally & fling foe are feats frome Races of Stone. Could be interesting to check. Edit: Got ninjad on this one, shouldn't check so many sources^^
Fling Enemy is definately worth a look,10ft per 5 points over the grapple check you are.... so a grapple check of 30 to a check of 10 for example is 40 feet. which is further.... although it does depend on good rolling.
I think I'd rather go barbarian with a monks belt for unarmed damage, whilst when not in grapples, throwing tables and statues around seems fun....also with the counting as large, it'd be the 5th level unarmed damage of a large monk
the mage slayer feat would be handy....basically would mean no caster could cast whilst in my grapples, and would need to move to cast a spell at the very least if I was near him.
I keep coming back to the black blood cultist in my head...basically after I'd done getting hurler stuffs, it'd be concentrating all on the grapple killage with that....could be very worthwhile.
also I think I could talk to DM into using a feat I found online thats not exactly official, but basically improved weapon specialisation, which would get rid of the pesky -4 whilst I'm hurling stuff.
I checked out the runescarred berserker...not quite sure if I like it...basically scribing scrolls for barbarians...cool but I'm not 100% if my DM would go for it, I think I'd more likely get a 3/day dispell magic casting trinket or a 1/day AMF casting belt buckle or something like that....my DM is very into his /day items.
The Reaping Mauler has some tasty treats, but also some rather dodgy ones.
the tasty being the sleeper hold and the devastating grapple, however if you put the sleeper on successfully you could coup de grace a unconcious (read helpless) target anyway.
"choke hold" from OA is strictly better than sleeper hold, as the DC scales with your HD, as opposed to your class level in a 5-level class.
I'm just saying.
Start with 2 levels of Monk, nabbing Imp Grapple and Monastic Training as your first 2 monk bonus feats. Your 1st level feat should be Scorpion Grasp (Sandstorm).
Then, take 18 levels of Psychic Warrior, with Tashalatora being your 3rd level feat, and taking Fling Enemy somewhere along there. Important powers include Expansion, Grip of Iron, and Psionic Lion's Charge.
Now, as a full round action while buffed with Augemented Expansion (to make yourself Huge, counting as Gargauntuan from Powerful Build), charge someone with Psionic Lion's Charge and pummel them with your brutally large fists that hit harder than greatswords. When you connect, grab your foe (Scorpion's Grasp) and pull him into your square.
Otherwise, you could have some fun with Bloodstorm Blade and Knockback. Throw your enemy at MORE enemies, causing them to get ping-ponged around before returning to your brutal grasp. Isn't sadism fun?
As to that, the best two solutions are...
1) At lower levels, Suel Arcanamach gives you a powerful Dispelling Strike to remove the buff. At higher levels, however, it will be harder to beat the DC.
2) At higher levels, Antimagic Field runes from the Runescarred Berserker are a strong option. Unfortunately, these do not make the best grapplers.
Black Blood Cultist is hands down the best grappling class. No Reaping Mauler. It's been said before and it will be said again; it is a terrible class.
Throwing things is certainly an interesting idea, but in terms of damage, you are more consistently going to get higher damage using natural weaponry and savage grapple (Cultist level 8). This is especially true when you consider the cap on falling damage: 20d6 as per the SRD (the terminal velocity rule). Yes, you can throw things AT an object and deal way more damage, but then you are not grappling, and you should be reading the Hulking Hurler thread.
-ktkenshinx
I would have thought the character with the highest strength would be the best grappler because once you are pinned by an over-whelming grapple check you are toast?
Psionics, fair enough I'm not usually a huge fan so I think I'll steer clear, I do love the sound of the bloodstorm blade though.
the build NEEDS savage grapple, and thus would really benefit from the claws/bite. especially since this helps keep it unarmed/free to switch to throwing stuff.
I think taking level dips for dispelling strike or AMF scars might not be worth it when I could replicate these effects with a magic item. considering both are 1/day with a couple levels, I could probably grab two 1/day items or even 3/day is not that much more expensive. at least not in this campaign.
an alternative to psychic warrior pounce might be switching the bear totem for the lion totem.
my DM has some interesting house rules on fall damage, making it a lot more lethal, however I've never pushed it to capping, he takes it like 10ft = 1d6, 20ft = 3d6, 30ft = 6d6, 40 ft = 10d6, 50ft = 15d6. or something like that, adding lots of damage, he felt the base rules didn't hit hard enough at the higher heights.
Bloodstorm blade is something I'm gonna read up on now, thanks for all the tips.
I was just thinking of something fun.
Justicar/Bloodhound. Using Throwing/Returning Manacles/Garrotte.:D
Leviathan Hunter(Storm) is the way to backdoor into Reaping Mauler(and not lose abilities if you grow), if you're really that set on it.
Everyone who is sane house-rules a fix but... what about freedom of movement?
Small character, with 10 ft reach, 1d3+3 damage with successful grapple, +4 bonus to grapple to negate penalty for being small, grappled opponents can't cast spells with somantic OR verbal components, climb speed, +4 natural armor, Darkvision 60 ft, AND
Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.
Extended Reach (from Savage Species) gives +5 reach, for a total reach of 15, or grappling from 3 squares away.
If your DM says you can't be a choker point him to Quarrian, Choker Warlock on the wotc site. If they can do it, you can too.
I think the suggested abilities for chokers as a race were something like +6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha. The only real downside is the 3HD of aberration.
Monk might actually be a good class for a choker, and a level or two in psychic warrior (wis based) gets you Expansion, which bumps you up a size category.
DEFENESTRATION!
Everyone who is sane house-rules a fix but... what about freedom of movement?
What about Freedom of Movement? Thats what the dispelling Strike or Antimagic discussed above is for
Hmm...
I was just thinking of something fun.
Justicar/Bloodhound. Using Throwing/Returning Manacles/Garrotte.:D
Leviathan Hunter(Storm) is the way to backdoor into Reaping Mauler(and not lose abilities if you grow), if you're really that set on it.
Do manacles automatically latch on? That would be cool..
And huh?? How does Leviathan Hunter allow you to be a larger Reaping Mauler?
Hulking Hurler 3
Black Blood Cultist 8.
so thats level 16, full BAB good saves. few rages a day, ability to charge pounce into a full attack with a grab for grapple, and savage grapples. with backup powers of throwing objects and people around.
4 levels before 20. what's best to add, or point out that I would suck or something ;)
or complete alternative builds.
the bloodhound or justicar route seems very different I'm not sure I quite understand whats being got at there...although the nonlethal strike and hog tie look fun.
the choker would be cool....but not fitting with a human party really... awesome race though.
Defenestration is the best word I have ever heard...you sir are awesome.
isn't it.I refer you to the Spell Compendium (if someone has not already) - turn to page 62 or so and read "Defenestrating Sphere"... :D
Then read THIS too (I wrote it at something like 2am for a laugh, so it may be a bit unbalanced)
Do manacles automatically latch on? That would be cool.
Not really. I think you have to put them on with a standard action or something(possibly with reduced required time by the PrCs in question). I was thinking more like Hogtie the guy with some kind of Manacles/Lariat(Bolas?) of Throwing and Returning, then throw them back and forth.
And huh?? How does Leviathan Hunter allow you to be a larger Reaping Mauler?
Not specifically, no, but it grants Clever Wrestling(level 2-ish, IIRC), without needing pre-requisites which would otherwise require you to be Medium or Smaller. Credit to whoever pointed it out(in Black Blood Cultist thread a little further down, I think).
What about Freedom of Movement? Thats what the dispelling Strike or Antimagic discussed above is for
neither of those completely negate how ridiculously imbalanced FoM is...
don't grapple
I know grapplers are built around grappling, but the whole point of this build is to also have the option of throwing things as backup. hulking hurler lets us use some nice throwing tricks.
Wizard; freedom of movement
Grappler; fails to grapple
Wizard; haha how do you like me now?
Grappler; finds something (statue, orc, rock, table, weapon, bystander, horse, something) and uses a knockdown blow, or a overburdoned heave.
Wizard; Squish
now I know it'd be more likely that the wizard just teleports 1000000 miles away and lets 50 delayed fireballs off...but you know, point standing that if you cannot grapple for some reason, out of dispells or AMF's you really should have a backup...even druids have grapple backups.
well to be honest. you can counter freedom of movement easily.
don't grapple
I know grapplers are built around grappling, but the whole point of this build is to also have the option of throwing things as backup. hulking hurler lets us use some nice throwing tricks.
I must respectfully disagree with this stance as it pertains to grapplers. There is a degree of variation in combat style that makes sense (for instance, a Black Blood Cultist facing an opponent with Freedom of Movement decides to claw them instead of grapple them), but too much deviation is diluting of your grappling abilities.
As Darth Bane said during the War of Ruusan, "Even the strongest wine cannot be tasted in a sea of water."
Grappling is the wine, and the sea is your character. If your character consists on grappling and is damn good at it, you will have an easily tasted and potent wine. But the more backups you add, the weaker your wine will be.
Metaphors aside, there are enough ways for grapplers to counter Freedom of Movement that it should not completely invalidate the class. Moreover, you are in a party of other adventurers. Kindly ask your Wizard to toss a dispel magic over at theirs so you can savage his bookish butt.
Moreover, tactically speaking, you absolutely do not need to grapple the Freedom of Movement enhanced characters in a battle. Fighting a Wizard? Grapple his summoned demons or his monstrous henchmen to let your party kill him.
Now, I think the Hulking Hurler is a hilarious and interesting option, not as a backup option, but as a primary grappler. Grappling an opponent and then hurling them at a wall, breaking the wall, and watching them tumble out of the tower with thirty rocks above them is absolutely wonderful. Is the Wizard using Freedom of Movement? Grab his 1400 pound summoned demon and throw that at the Wizard.
If you are a grappler, you must grapple. Stay with it and you will be rewarded.
-ktkenshinx-
neither of those completely negate how ridiculously imbalanced FoM is...
Well that is true.. But it's something every Arcane Caster is going to have.. There should be an anti-Freedom of Movement Ring - negates Freedom of Movement
No Reaping Mauler. It's been said before and it will be said again; it is a terrible class.
Reaping Mauler is misunderstood methinks.. I believe it is designed for lower levels (and should be aimed that way) and it does what it's designed to do..
RM's are normal sized Grappler's that use skill and slipperiness to escape the grapples of larger monsters while remaining useful against Casters. They just shouldn't have the size restriction
Reaping Mauler is misunderstood methinks.. I believe it is designed for lower levels (and should be aimed that way) and it does what it's designed to do..
RM's are normal sized Grappler's that use skill and slipperiness to escape the grapples of larger monsters while remaining useful against Casters. They just shouldn't have the size restriction
if you wanted to do this the best method would be something along the lines of a giant bane gnome, or whatever they are called...they are amazing the bigger their opponent is the harder it falls.
RM's are literally a 5 barbarian 5 RM, level 10 and no higher class....which is a shame but it just does not scale with level. (in my opinion)
getting back to topic, This guy performed pretty well.
basically, a few humans who were barely armed kept the fighter/rogue/cleric busy, this beast
Barbarian Lion Totem 5/Hulking hurler 3
came out all unarmed charged the sorcerer and grappled him, mage slayer basically meaning the sorcerer could not cast spells, grapple check, a few damage rounds, toss check, two rounds of full attacking the wall with a sorcerer before the cleric managed to get involved.
he managed to grapple the sorcerer who was on about 3 hp, the cleric of strength domain at the same time and win... including throwing the sorcerer at the fighter with a knockdown throw. then the rogue sneak attacked him for all it was worth and they killed him....but they definately learnt something about grapplers. turnt an easy fight against 6 pretty mundane fighters (well, five and this beast) into a real good example that they need to protect their spellcaster.
the sorc took his defeat rather well...and I had him find an extra hp potion than I had intended.
the only magic item I gave him was a one use burst of speed item which doubled his charge....he rolled mid-initiative, sorc rolled a juicy 3 which didn't help him.
all in all, mage slayer is awesome, everyone enjoyed the 6"4 human slamming a 5"4 elf into a wall and knocking down a plate wearing dwarf fighter with him whilst holding a beefy strength cleric at arms length.
basically I recommend the build to anyone (but barb 5 is easily interchangable with barb2 fighter 2 ranger 1, or a whole lot of options...barb 2 fighter 2 monk 1 but you need the ordered chaos feat and ETC) who wants an 8th level grappler, and would progress into black blood cultist to stack grapple damage.
edit; one rule I'm not sure about thats unrelated kinda, sneak attack = every time opponent denied dex. so in a grapple, opponent always denied dex, so is that sneak attack on EVERY attack? for example, BAB +5+5/+2, three sneak attacks? or two for just main hands? or just the one for the first attack?
edit; one rule I'm not sure about thats unrelated kinda, sneak attack = every time opponent denied dex. so in a grapple, opponent always denied dex, so is that sneak attack on EVERY attack? for example, BAB +5+5/+2, three sneak attacks? or two for just main hands? or just the one for the first attack?
False reading of rules. The grapplers lose their dex bonus against others, not against each other.
No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
This is particularly annoying both for Rogues and for Justiciars. The only way out of this is with Savage Grapple (CA feat), but that is limited to Wild Shape forms.
-ktkenshinx-
Glad to hear the build worked out well.
False reading of rules. The grapplers lose their dex bonus against others, not against each other.
-ktkenshinx-
the rogue didn't join the grapple, he just sneak attacked his lil' heart out from outside it. I realise I wasn't too clear.
the rogue didn't join the grapple, he just sneak attacked his lil' heart out from outside it. I realise I wasn't too clear.
In that case yes, the Rogue is allowed to use his Sneak Attack modifier on every iterative attack in the BAB, so long as his opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC or is flanked. This is one of my absolute favorite grappling tactics; grab the opponent and let your rogue rail on his spine.
-ktkenshinx-
Won't be doing much grappling lv 1-5, but after that, even some serpent forms give you pretty good bonuses.
Freedom of Movement should not be a problem. (1) Someone else in the party can deal with it. (2) You can always just beat that one down. No one said you had to squeeze everyone to death.