Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bellasarius Jul 13, 2009 16:49:40	Hi guys, I am working on a wildshape focused druid build and had a question about the interaction of the power attack feat with the damage dealt by grappling. Since a grapple check is not considered an attack roll could you full power attack while in a grapple without taking a penalty on your grapple checks yet still gain the bonus to damage if you succeed in the opposed roll?
#2 ananvilhurtz Jul 13, 2009 17:30:31	The rules are ambiguous, but no DM with sense would allow it. I allow my players to take penalties to their grapple check to Power Attack.
#3 risner Jul 13, 2009 20:54:29	Since a grapple check is not considered an attack roll could you full power attack while in a grapple without taking a penalty on your grapple checks yet still gain the bonus to damage if you succeed in the opposed roll? The only legal way is to "Attack Your Opponent" taking a -4 to hit and adding the Power Attack bonus.
#4 bellasarius Jul 13, 2009 23:11:00	The only legal way is to "Attack Your Opponent" taking a -4 to hit and adding the Power Attack bonus. I'm not so sure. Let's look at a sample build as an idea: Druid 8+ Wildshape into a tiger round 1: Attack with claw/claw/bite routine and use improved grab to grapple foe. Assume a successful grapple with a claw. round 2: Power attack for 6, taking a -6 to hit. Since you have a foe grappled at the beginning of the round you get two rake attacks with all the penalties and bonuses of power attack. You also get to make your grapple check against that foe with none of the penalites but all the bonuses of power attack. While this doesn't seem like a huge deal it becomes much nicer with Greater Multigrab. Sound feasable?
#5 -ktkenshinx- Jul 13, 2009 23:29:22	While a DM may house-rule that Power Attack works in a grapple, as suggested by Ananvilhurtz, the strict rules do not allow it. As stated in the FAQ, page 39... When using Combat Expertise or Power Attack, does the penalty you take also apply to opposed attack rolls (such as when you are involved in a disarm or sunder attempt)? What about on grapple checks? Yes and no. Anything described as an attack roll (even an opposed attack roll) can be affected by Combat Expertise or Power Attack. A grapple check isn’t an attack roll, so you can’t use Combat Expertise or Power Attack in conjunction with it. While you might be able to create an argument for your DM that your interpretation works, this is neither RAW or RAI. The only way to use Power Attack in a grapple is, as risner mentioned, using the "attack an opponent" option, not the "damage an opponent" option. Your example with the rake attacks does not use the former option, and therefore cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack. That said, if you were to CHARGE your opponent, initiate a grapple, and THEN rake on a subsequent attack, these attacks would benefit from any initial Power Attack subtractions you made prior to the charge. -ktkenshinx-
#6 bellasarius Jul 13, 2009 23:39:53	You are using the attack an opponent option with the rakes; they are giving you a way of activating your power attack since I agree that just using grapple to damage an opponent does not allow you to do so. Now that you have activated power attack your grapple damage is as per unarmed damage, including all modifers to that damage. I'm not sure why you are talking about RAI, this is the CO board after all.;)
#7 -ktkenshinx- Jul 13, 2009 23:59:58	Your original post states the following: Since a grapple check is not considered an attack roll could you full power attack while in a grapple without taking a penalty on your grapple checks yet still gain the bonus to damage if you succeed in the opposed roll? The answer to which is unequivocally "no". Now you seem to be offering a different statement regarding rake attacks. If you are grappled and have the rake ability, you are allowed 2 additional attacks IN ADDITION to the single normal attack that you are allowed to use while in a grapple. For the purposes of this thread, let us say that you use one claw and two rakes in the "Attack your opponent" option. Let's say you take a -10 to your attack rolls. Your rolls and damage would look like this (strength and other bonuses are not factored in): Claw: -14 to hit, 1dx + 10 to damage Rake 1: -10 to hit, 1dy + 10 to damage Rake 2: -10 to hit, 1dy + 10 to damage This is how your damage and attack modifiers would work out. Now that you have activated power attack your grapple damage is as per unarmed damage, including all modifers to that damage. You are not dealing grapple damage when you use the "Attack your opponent" option. You are not dealing unarmed damage either. You are using your entire action to attack your opponent with one light weapon (a claw), and your two rake attacks, as per the exception in the Rake (Ex) ability text that allows you two additional attacks while grappling. -ktkenshinx-
#8 bellasarius Jul 14, 2009 8:37:29	Now you seem to be offering a different statement regarding rake attacks. That is correct, the idea evolved a bit. Why point this out as it's obvious? For the purposes of this thread, let us say that you use one claw and two rakes in the "Attack your opponent" option. No, let's not say that as that's not what I'm saying. You are using the two rake attacks as per attack your opponent but you are making a grapple check with the claw attack as per improved grab. You are not dealing unarmed damage either. It doesn't matter if the damage is as per an unarmed attack or a claw, power attack interacts with them the same way and improved grab makes the grapple deal damage as per the claw damage.
#9 -ktkenshinx- Jul 14, 2009 8:53:56	It doesn't matter if the damage is as per an unarmed attack or a claw, power attack interacts with them the same way and improved grab makes the grapple deal damage as per the claw damage. Then use the proper terminology. You are the one asking the questions here, not us. Indeed this quote seems to point to a fundamental misunderstanding as to how grappling and natural attacks work. I refer to the FAQ for a clear and concise description of how your Rakes and grapple works out: How many attacks does a creature with multiple natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many grapple checks can it make in a round? Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite. The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM 314). A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size (1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth, plus its Strength modifier). Improved Grab and Rake do not allow you to use the "damage your opponent" option IN ADDITION to the "attack your opponent" option. You still have to choose what you are going to do in the grapple. Improved Grab claw damage only triggers on successful grapple checks. You are not making grapple checks when you use Rake, because you have selected to use the "attack your opponent" option, which involves attack rolls, not grapple checks. Thus you will have a claw attack and two rake attacks (or a bite attack and two rake attacks). The moment you choose to make a grapple check, you are no longer using the "attack your opponent" option for the round, and you are thus no longer allowed to use natural attacks. I refer to two more passages on this matter. The first is from the SRD: A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. And a second quote from Skip Williams' "All About Grappling (Part Two)" article, which I highly recommend you read: Damage your opponent...Even if a creature has natural weaponry, it doesn’t use those natural weapons as part of this action. It must use the “Attack Your Opponent” action (described above) to do so. Rake attacks, being natural attacks, are only used with the "attack your opponent" option. If you want to power attack before that, go ahead. If you want to use your "damage an opponent" option, however, then you are not making attack rolls, and not using rake. -ktkenshinx-
#10 risner Jul 18, 2009 15:58:40	power attack your grapple damage is as per unarmed damage, including all modifers to that damage. I'm not sure why you are talking about RAI, this is the CO board after all.;) Not by RAW, absolutely not. As for CO board, RAW matters but RAI is what matters to most DM's in real life.