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| #1woodenbandmanAug 30, 2008 10:12:59 | No, I'm not crazy. The rules clearly support this. When you're grappling, you lose your Dex bonus against the opponent you're grappling with. A rogue's sneak attack deals extra damage against opponents denied their Dex bonus. Therefore, I've come up with this build. Now I just hope that no one's come up with this before me, because that would suck hard. Builds: Daring Outlaw type build. Rogue1/Ninja/Swashbuckler3/Assasin1/Avenging Executioner1/Invisible Blade5. Any class that at this point progresses your sneak attack (I.e, Swashbuckler), or uses Sudden Strike, preferably with a Full BAB (hence Swashbuckler). Remember: Every level that you don't get a point of BAB or a point of Sneak attack you're a sucker. By level 12 with this build you've got 8d6 of sneak attack with only 1 point of BAB lost. If you can deal with getting a BAB of 16 (thus, a -3 on all grapple checks) at level 20, you'll have the option of picking up several more classes that give you sneak attack. Full Rogue with ridiculous number of prestige classes: Rogue11/Ninja1/Avenging Executioner1/Nightsong Enforcer1/Asassin1/Invisible Blade5 BAB of only 16, but see below. The main reason for going to Rogue 10 is for crippling strike, so that you can take the enemy's strength down to nothing. And with Savvy Rogue, they suddenly get less and less able to resist your grapple, and eventually are unable to move whatsoever, even if they aren't vulnerable to sneak attack. Sneak attack + 13d6, and loads of skill points, as well. Even better, since you're large, you can pass yourself off for a monk if your party members never see your character sheet. For both builds I think a DEX of at least 13 is required, as well as an INT of 13. STR is your favorite stat, and some CON is pretty nice as well. And now for the humorous parts: Be large. If a large creature can be had with no LA, or you use LA buyoff, great. Goliaths are great as well, as well as Half-giants. Feats (The obvious): Improved Unarmed Strike: Needed for several feats that include but are not limited to Improved Grapple: The mainstay of this build, needed for grappling, especially if you're up against things with ridiculous Escape artist checks. (The not-so-obvious) Scorpion's Grasp: Start a grapple with a sneak attack. START A GRAPPLE; WITH A SNEAK ATTACK. Start it with 3 if you want. You'll need the aforementioned feats, which are nice anyway. Staggering Strike: Reguires sneak attack, which you have out the butt, and makes an enemy staggered. Useful, since they can't run away if they do manage to escape. Arterial Strike: Doesn't stack with Invisible blade's ability, and you should probably have a few levels of Invisible blade. It can be nice to know that you can grapple a guy for a few rounds and then leave him to die while you kill his friends, but it's not really worth it. Hamstring: Pretty nice, for a normal sneak attacker. Skip this, your opponents won't be moving around much at all. Head Shot: Sweet. Try using this at the end of your grapple round, so that your opponent has about a 50% chance to do absolutely nothing. You lose some sneak attack, but if your opponent doesn't (can't) run or oppose you it can be worth it. Basically a save-or-suck for sneak attack. Earth's Embrace: Bad. Why waste a feat on an extra D12 damage that only works when you pin an opponent? You lose several of your options when you pin an opponent, and this feat makes you remain immobile. Further, it only works once a round, while you can use a normal grapple up to 4 times in a round. Overall a slightly meh feat. Daring Outlaw: Kinda needed for the first build, since it gives you additional sneak attack at a higher BAB, which, as we all know, gives more attacks and more grappling power. Also, Dodge bonus isn't so bad. Superior Unarmed Strike: Great, since you don't want to be dealing 1d6 against something you though was immune to sneak attack. Pick this up for a 3d6 fist of peril. If you do decide to go with this, then pick up something else other than Invisible Blade (I don't know of another class with full BAB and good sneak attack progression: Help?) Maybe even pick up some levels of Swashbuckler and go daring outlaw AGAIN. Here's a build overview for the second build. With Flaws, of course. Rogue1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Scorpion's grasp Rogue2 Rogue3 Weapon Focus Kukri (Or Arterial Strike) Rogue4 Rogue5 Rogue6 (Superior Unarmed Strike or Point Blank Shot) Rogue7 Rogue8 Rogue9 Staggering Strike Rogue10 Crippling Strike Rogue11 Ninja1 Head Shot Assasin1 Avenging Executioner1 Nightsong Enforcer1: Far Shot Invisible Blade1/Swashbuckler1 Invisible Blade2/Swashbuckler2 Invisible Blade3/Swashbuckler3 (Daring Outlaw) Invisible Blade4/Swashbuckler4 Invisible Blade5/Swashbuckler5 Not even all that feat intensive, and in fact can be made a lot simpler and still be effective. At first level, you not only have 8 skill points, and thus make a good skill monkey, but you also have a grapple modifier of +14 (assuming you've maxed out your strength and are a goliath), and can deal with a successful grapple damage equal to 1d6+9 with and unarmed strike, plus 1d6 sneak attack. Your hide and move silently aren't so great, but you can still do a lot of things for the party, such as Trapfind, disable, etc with your semi-decent stats in Dex and Int. When you acheive 20th level, regardless of the path you took, you should be able to grapple nearly anything, with your modifier (expected, assuming everything was poured into it) 38, Which nets you a BAB of +30/+25/+20/+15 (grapple modifiers of +38/+33/+28/+23), each of which deals either 1d6+14 (if invisible blade) or 3d6+21 (If SUS and Daring Outlaw), and each of which dealing 2 points of strength damage, a bleeding wound between 1 and 4 times each round (depending), And also dealing at least 11d6 of sneak attack. Follow with a Head Shot (no way to explain this in a physical action that can be performed), and your opponent has a 50% chance to do nothing, and is also staggered. Also, you can hold them in one hand and slap the others with them if necessary. Downsides are, of course, you're a bit of a glass cannon, with many classes having only a d6 hit die, and you have bad AC due to your light armor and your middling Dex score. But as long as you keep to the shadows and use your Ki Pool wisely (for this purpose you might want to drop invisible blade and pick up Extra Ki Pool from Complete Scoundrel), and do some light fleeing, you are basically Solid Snake, 8 feet tall. Sneak up on your opponents and break their necks, today! Additional feat listings welcome, as this build could use some more feats. Invisible blade is probably a bad choice in retrospect, but I don't really feel like going through and editing it out right now. Well, gleemax forumgoers, what do you think? |
| #2CantripNAug 30, 2008 10:43:35 | There's alos that feat that lets a Grappling Wildshaped Druid apply Sneak Attack to his attacks. It's in CDiv or CAdv, IIRC. |
| #3ChosenofragnarokAug 30, 2008 10:45:46 | um earths embrace is great you use the opponents weapon against them, which allows you sneak attack dice and the earths embrace dmg. |
| #4eldarielAug 30, 2008 16:44:00 | Umm, "Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappling character can undertake only a limited number of actions. He does not threaten any squares, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against opponents he isn’t grappling. See Grapple." Bombo. |
| #5jacobi289Aug 30, 2008 17:34:19 | yeah, you only lose your dex bonus to guys you are NOT grappling. |
| #6CantripNAug 30, 2008 22:24:38 | yeah, you only lose your dex bonus to guys you are NOT grappling. Hence the feat I mentioned (Savage Grappler?). That + 1 level in Shapeshift Druid ought to work just fine. You can also use Daggerspell Shaper. |
| #7SIKBUZAug 31, 2008 1:24:50 | How much is your grapple bonus for this build? Only problem i see is coming up against a grappler build, you'll get pinned |
| #8woodenbandmanAug 31, 2008 1:27:38 | Crap, that sucks for me. Oh well, it's not quite as impressive as I had hoped, I don't know how to sneak (haha) in enough levels of a wildshaping class to get the damage up to impressive levels. Do animals get extra grapple attempts? Because if they do then the damage could still get impressive. And even if they don't then the build would have to look a little like this: Druid5 or Wildshape Ranger5/Master of Many Forms2/Rogue11/Ninja1/Assasin1, which nets you + 8d6 sneak attack, all that nice stuff, and the ability to wildshape into a large giant. One more level and you get monstrous humanoid, but too many more and you're losing a lot of sneak attack. I'm kinda sad about not having as much SA as I thought, but this is still nice. Looks like the grapple modifier is only going to max out at about +28 or so with only 3 attacks. So, it's just as cool, except x 3/4 |
| #9vglcatDec 14, 2008 9:52:35 | is there a guide to grappling? |
| #10eldarielDec 14, 2008 13:38:55 | Yes. See Surrealdex. Also, holy necromancy, batman. |
| #11vglcatDec 14, 2008 17:31:36 | Surrealdex? |
| #12gorfnad_the_shiznitDec 14, 2008 18:05:17 | This: Some handy links for CO work |
| #13emansdrawkcabDec 15, 2008 0:18:59 | There's alos that feat that lets a Grappling Wildshaped Druid apply Sneak Attack to his attacks. It's in CDiv or CAdv, IIRC. This could be VERY good combined with the Divine Minion (with Brown Bear, or Lion) template, or a gestalt character. It could also be viable using the Wildshape Ranger variant and Daggerspell Shaper... Maybe. |
| #14vglcatDec 15, 2008 14:53:45 | thanks ![]() |
| #15emansdrawkcabDec 15, 2008 15:14:59 | Are there rules/bonuses/additional options for grappling when you have more than two arms? |