Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wyld_mutation Aug 24, 2013 12:35:48	This isn't going to be a heavily optimized build, and by it's very nature (and some rules interpretation) probably won't break anything too bad. But I just thought I'd ask what people thought about it. The Progression Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold Lvl1 Dragonblood Sorcerer - Draonrought/Draconic Heritage (Silver) Lvl2 Sorcerer Lvl3 Sorcerer - Eschew Materials Lvl4 Dragonblood Sorcerer Lvl5 Sorcerer Lvl6 Escalation Mage - Draconic Reservoir Lvl7 Escalation Mage Lvl8 escalation Mage - Assume Supernatural Ability Lvl9 Master Transmogrifist Lvl10 Master Transmogrifist Lvl11 Master Transmogrifist Lvl 12 Master Transmogrifist - Improved Toughness Lvl13 Master Transmogrifist Lvl14 Master Transmogrifist Lvl15 Master Transmogrifist - ? Lvl16 Master Transmogrifist Lvl17 Master Transmogrifist Lvl18 Master Transmogrifist - Practised Spellcaster Lvl19 Escalation Mage Lvl20 Escalation Mage
#2 NineInchNall Aug 24, 2013 13:12:16	Favored Shape: RAW  "A favored shape is a specific kind of creature whose form he can assume by means of the polymorph spell.", Keyword here being "specific kind" not "specific creature. As far as I'm vconcerned this doen't mean I choose "War Troll" or "Pyrohydra". This means I choose a kind, a "War Troll" is still a troll, and likewise a "Pyrohydra" is still a hydra. The example description supports this interpretation (and it makes the class a little more powerful without enabling too many shenanigans). Yes that means I would count creatures with greater than 15 HD as eligible for this class feature's bonusesas long as I could assume some variant of taht kind of creature. Actually, the example supports not this. The Favored Shape description says this: For example, an 8th-level human sorcerer/1st-level master transmogrifist might choose pegasus, umber hulk, and bronze dragon as his favored shapes, though because of the Hit Dice restriction, he could become only a very young bronze dragon. If your interpretation were correct, the example would have just "dragon" without specifying the type, because "bronze dragon is still a dragon." Since the species is specified in the example, one should interpret the favored shape rules as treating things like being an entirely different creature, like trolls and war trolls or hydras and pyrohydras, as requiring different favored shape choices. It's definitely reasonable to make it so that favored shapes can be chosen from any that can be taken by means of a spell in the polymorph line, allowing draconic polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange to be sources of favored shapes. I'd also say that Infinite Variety allows the MT to move Su abilities around when using shapechange.
#3 wyld_mutation Aug 24, 2013 15:03:03	That's a little broader than what I intended to describe about my interpretation. Effectively what my interpretation is derives from the fact that the Master Transmogrifist can choose "bronze dragon". Which means that you would gain bonuses on any form taken that is a "bronze dragon". That is to say that by "form of creature" it means "creatures that can be reasonably interpreted as a partsof the same species". IE: A War troll can be reasonably interpreted to be a Troll that has advanced in Hit Dice. Or more boradly if two creatures share a stat block (a pyrohydra shares the stat block of a hydra, it has no separate stat block) it is probably reaosnable to assume tehy're effectively teh same creature. Dragons of a given type (bronze, gold, etc) all share a stat table. As do hydras of any number of heads (and the elementally augmented forms add a single ability). An Andro or a Gyno sphinx would likewise be the same form (gener differences withi na species). Reaosnable interpretation here.
#4 NineInchNall Aug 24, 2013 18:39:30	Except war troll and troll do not share a stat block. They don't even share a book.
#5 wyld_mutation Aug 24, 2013 20:37:18	Well I suppose that does rather muddle ut. What I'm really trying to say is that I interpret the example to mean that if a creature is fundamentally the same species it should be covered by the favored shape feature. Better examples (that are probably clearer) sre: Hydra: Every hydra is fundamentally the same creatiure just differing numbers of heads. Sphinx: Andro and Gyno sphinxes are sexual dimorphism
#6 NineInchNall Aug 25, 2013 2:02:19	While you can make the argument that androsphinxes and gynosphinxes are literally just the males and females of the species, one can't do the same with trolls and war trolls. Another way to think about it: "I'm turning into a troll." "What kind of troll?"  "War troll." Returning to the text.  "A favored shape is a specific kind of creature whose form he can assume by means of the polymorph spell." So war troll is a specific kind, which means it counts as one shape.
#7 wyld_mutation Aug 25, 2013 9:39:50	Well rather than argue about whether a "Troll, War" is a troll (or what the RAI is on a "kind" of creature because that's semantics) how about some ideas on feat choices, whether instead of or to fill my open slot. I suck at feats. I also wish Abjurant Champion was a  better fit for this build.
#8 NineInchNall Aug 25, 2013 12:40:09	Show Part of discussing the RAW is determining the proper way to interpret things, and that is inherently a discussion of semantics and syntax. You're trying to get more power out of the class than a reasonable interpretation of the text would allow.
#9 wyld_mutation Aug 25, 2013 13:43:55	Escalation Mage because it's (slightly) easier to get into than Incantrix, and provides full caster progression. Free 1+Cha Mod to HP doesn't hurt either since I can grab the first level at 6 when my life is pretty low. Those feats are gems, I knew there were some useful feats for polymorphing that I didn't remember. I generally assume my attribute scores are going to suck, so I tend to look for easy-ins over loading up on lots of stuff. Edit: Draconic Rite for Charm Person yes? Because that would be pretty efficient. Edit2: Becoming an Ascetic (exalted Dees) would be entertaining. edit3: Maybe I can get Stalwart Sorcerer thrown in the mix. Makes Sorcerer levels actually rather useful (Effectivesly +2Con mod o nsorcerer levels) at the price of a spell known.
#10 Cyclone_Joker Aug 25, 2013 17:42:37	Escalation Mage because it's (slightly) easier to get into than Incantrix, and provides full caster progression. And is so inferior words fail to describe how simply superior Incantatrix is. Free 1+Cha Mod to HP doesn't hurt either since I can grab the first level at 6 when my life is pretty low. You're playing a full caster. You don't need any bonus HP. Those feats are gems, I knew there were some useful feats for polymorphing that I didn't remember. Eh. Needs persistomancy. Also, remember that the Alter Self/Polymorph line gives you Natural Abilities, which is pretty near any ability without a listed type I generally assume my attribute scores are going to suck, so I tend to look for easy-ins over loading up on lots of stuff. Uh, what? Also, your ability scores do kinda suck, to be honest. First rule of playing a caster, "Max your stat."  Edit: Draconic Rite for Charm Person yes? Because that would be pretty efficient. Why? Edit2: Becoming an Ascetic (exalted Dees) would be entertaining. Oh dear god, no. Also, so note that, as written, no character can be Exalted without rushing straight into a suicidal crusade in hell. It's just worth pointing out, the Book of Exalted Cheese is one of the worst-written books in all of 3.X. edit3: Maybe I can get Stalwart Sorcerer thrown in the mix. Makes Sorcerer levels actually rather useful (Effectivesly +2Con mod o nsorcerer levels) at the price of a spell known.  No! No, no, no! That's terrible. Why would you sacrifice what makes your class easily in the top five most powerful classes in the game(Sorry Druids), for HP that won't matter if you're doing your job, and that, even if it did matter, what you gained was so low as to be pointless? Look, it's simply the only good move to not get hit on defense. Any other defensive strategy short of the Twice-Betrayer is simply a bad option.
#11 wyld_mutation Aug 25, 2013 19:15:53	The thing is that I'm rolling stats (those stats are rolled as a kind of outline I did). Which means "Maxing my stat" isn't a guarantee. Which means that *if I could* I'd go for the superior options. But on the other hand I'm not guaranteed anything so I want a strong baseleline.  Draconic Rite-ing Charm Person meets the charm person requirement to get into Mindbender.
#12 NineInchNall Aug 25, 2013 19:31:35	Or you could just take it as one of your spells known. It's only 1st level, after all.  As CJ mentioned, you could spend some feats on persistent stuff. That would be much more effective cheese than a tortured interpretation of favored shape. Feats you absolutely must avoid: anything that can be taken as a fighter bonus feat. You're a Sorc. Just grab heroics if you absolutely must use those feats occasionally.
#13 Cyclone_Joker Aug 25, 2013 19:46:33	The thing is that I'm rolling stats (those stats are rolled as a kind of outline I did). Which means "Maxing my stat" isn't a guarantee. Then use point buy. It makes everyones life easier. Or use a race with a Cha bonus and get away from the abomination that is Loredrake. Which means that *if I could* I'd go for the superior options. But on the other hand I'm not guaranteed anything so I want a strong baseleline. So? What does this have to do with? Quoting is cool, man. Draconic Rite-ing Charm Person meets the charm person requirement to get into Mindbender. ...It's a first level spell. You''re using ****ing Loredrake. I think you can afford to lose a first level spell. As CJ mentioned, you could spend some feats on persistent stuff. That would be much more effective cheese than a tortured interpretation of favored shape. Much more effective and actually legal. OP, seriously if you want a cheesed caster, just go Incantatrix. It will not only be more effective than your build(Especially if you go Wizard instead of sorcerer), but lacks the inelegance of loredrake.
#14 wyld_mutation Aug 26, 2013 8:16:07	1) BecauseI'm playing in a rooled stats campaign that I'm joiing I have to roll stats. If I could use point buy I would and I'd dump all three physical stats and go 16/10/16 on mental to get into the high skill prestige classes. On top of that I'm joining a campaign where most of the players are relatively new. Going full optimization would be poor manners. 2) I'd like to not eat 4 level loss in spells, and I'm specifically using an interpretation of loredrake that makes the DM less leary of a "3rd level sorcerer" in a first level party. 3) The exampls for Favored form indicates that the hypothetical sorcerer could apply his favored form bonus to any Bronze Dragon he assumes, but is limited by hit dice. In such a case this implies creatures of the same effective species across multiple stat block could be considered one form. Alternatively it implies that he must choose a specific creature (young bronze dragon) limited by hit hit dice. One of those intrepretations is RAI, both are indicated by the Master Tranmogrifist entries.  If I WANTED to be cheesey I'd convince my DM that Favored Form applies to creature types, and just turn into everything. It's not hard to imagine favored form allowing you to assume a creature that fits your HD as long as it isn't terribly different form the lower form. 4) Which books are the persistency feats spread across, other than "persistent spell" are there more that I'm not finding.  5) Using Draconic Rite is a foregone conclusion, to get into greater draconic rite, and I'm deciding what spell to spend it on anyway.
#15 Cyclone_Joker Aug 26, 2013 9:40:53	1) BecauseI'm playing in a rooled stats campaign that I'm joiing I have to roll stats. If I could use point buy I would and I'd dump all three physical stats and go 16/10/16 on mental to get into the high skill prestige classes. ...You're joking, right? On top of that I'm joining a campaign where most of the players are relatively new. Going full optimization would be poor manners. But loredrake and "interpretations" bordering on munchkinism isn't a demonstration poor manners? 2) I'd like to not eat 4 level loss in spells, and I'm specifically using an interpretation of loredrake that makes the DM less leary of a "3rd level sorcerer" in a first level party. Then take a better class. I've only ever come up with one use for Master Transmogrifist, and that was a TO build that wound up working better with Psionics. 3) The exampls for Favored form indicates that the hypothetical sorcerer could apply his favored form bonus to any Bronze Dragon he assumes, but is limited by hit dice. In such a case this implies creatures of the same effective species across multiple stat block could be considered one form. Alternatively it implies that he must choose a specific creature (young bronze dragon) limited by hit hit dice. One of those intrepretations is RAI, both are indicated by the Master Tranmogrifist entries. Regardless of which one you think is right, going down that tangent would lead to nothing but headaches, you're still wrong. A bronze dragon is one creature, from Wyrmling to Great Wyrm. The stats are in one entry in a nice little table, and it can age into the others. Same with a Phaerimm, IIRC. A War Troll, however, is not. It's an entirely different beast from the regular troll. What you're doing is even more absurd than claiming you could select "dinosaur" and get all dinosaur forms, because at least they're all under one catergory.  If I WANTED to be cheesey I'd convince my DM that Favored Form applies to creature types, and just turn into everything. It's not hard to imagine favored form allowing you to assume a creature that fits your HD as long as it isn't terribly different form the lower form. And that would be blatant cheating. 4) Which books are the persistency feats spread across, other than "persistent spell" are there more that I'm not finding. Persistent spell is the only one that matters besides metamagic reducers. 5) Using Draconic Rite is a foregone conclusion, to get into greater draconic rite, and I'm deciding what spell to spend it on anyway.  ... This really conflicts with what you were saying about Loredrake. Why not go Spellhoarding while you're at it? And take some Epic feats?