Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LordPhrofet Jul 04, 2011 18:19:49	Hey everyone I am about to start a undead hunting campaign and was thinking of doing a smiting paladin/favored enemy ranger build. We are going to be starting at Lvl 11. My DM is also allowing me to apply "selfstringing" for 10k based on the selfstringing crossbow from Arms and equipment. So with Quickloading and selfstringing I am able to turn a greatcrossbow into a (sorta?) repeating greatcrossbow with a 100 bolt magazine. If i use the paladin variant smite arrow from Dragon 349 i can smite with ranged weapons within 30ft (i lose heavy amor and shield proficency). My DM also would like me not to play a human (since must of my characters are) so that reduces my feat selection and he does not allow flaws. I was thinking of also using the two variants from Complete Champion for Ranger and Paladin for the extra feats. The  build sorta of looks like this right now: Elf 5 Ranger/5 Paladin/1???????? Total of 6 feats + endurance, track and rapid shot The feats i am planning on are (not particulary in this order): Improved Favored enemy Devoted Tracker Improved critical (this would give me a crit range of 15-20 and i will  use the truedeath crystal) Exotic weapon proficency point blank shot crossbow sniper My basic weapon looks somehthing like this: +1 Selfstringing(+10k) Quickloading (+1) Precise (+1) Mighty Smiting (+1) Great Crossbow : $42,450           + Greater Truedeath Crystal:$10,000 Starting wealth for 11th lvl is $66,800. I know i can make the supermount build with this if i want halfling but i am not sure if i want to go down that route. I am looking for any sugestions or criticisms. The base concept is just a great crossbow using ranger (favoored enemy)/paladin (smiting) build. Please do not deviate from that base concept in your sugestions...anything else i would love the help.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 04, 2011 19:06:16	Van Helsing joke here.> Dumping all of your money into your weapon is usually a bad idea. You're so heavily invested on one specific line of offense that your defense will really suffer and you may not last long enough between encounters to stay active as the day runs dry. The rules you're using for "self-stringing" are what, again? My A&EG is in another province at the moment.  Why a great crossbow and not one of the simple weapon variants instead? If the answer is "more damage", think again, since generally taking an EWP for a bigger weapon (on those grounds alone) is a poor choice. You'll actually be able to dramatically improve your damage output (assuming smite arrow is exactly like normal smite, except with ranged attacks) by using  Penetrating Shot (the "extra damage" it refers to is almost certainly in the form of damage dice, which Smite is not). Yes, it costs you a standard action, so no full attacks, but at your level (and the level it becomes available to you), your full attack is two shots, while the 60' line could hit as many as 12 and still leave you free to move. You haven't said what books are available to you. Given what you've suggested, if every book is available, I'd mention going towards Peerless Archer (Silver Marches; lets you power attack with ranged weapons) and taking Favored Power Attack (gives you incredible power attack vs favored enemies; Smite is giving you the extra attack bonus). I forget if it works on crossbows though - I know it says "bows" in the description, but the mechanics say "ranged attack rolls" and so on. You only need 3 levels to get this ability, the abilities on the other levels are handy, and the prerequisites are mostly the feats you'd want anyway (Point Blank, Far Shot, Precise Shot). The only other drawback is it's a 3e class, but the update is pretty straightforward. Devoted Tracker is still worth taking even if you don't Supermount it - Supermount just lets you double-up on the mount abilities, which is pretty slick, but Devoted Tracker lets you only take the opening few levels of Paladin (the only ones that are really worthwhile) and focus on Ranger (which gets some sick sniping spells) without losing your smite potential. Taking Extra Smiting wherever possible can make up for the loss. The mount, if you have it, is your breakpoint on paladin. If in doubt, take more Ranger rather than a prestige class (but only if you're in doubt, and if the PrC advances smiting, you probably should be in doubt). Other than what's been said here, there really isn't a lot of crossbow support out there. I'm not 100% sure on how that changes given full attacks; you might have better luck looking through existing archer builds and seeing how many of them will work without specifying "bow".
#3 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 04, 2011 19:23:58	Strongarm bracers wouldn't hurt, and you'll probably want Weapon Focus to make the most out of Crossbow Sniper.
#4 Maat_Mons Jul 04, 2011 20:26:01	You need a +3 weapon (not counting special abilities) to use a greater weapon crystal. A truedeath crystal does not help in overcoming DR. Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning and zombies have DR/slashing. Piercing might not be the best damage type in an undead-hunting game. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has an alternate class feature that gives you detect undead instead of detect evil. The detect undead ability gives you all the information in one round instead of three. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft also has an alternate class feature that gives you extra bonuses when smiting undead instead of divine health. Would you consider an icechucker (Frostburn) instead of a great crossbow? An icechucker differs from a great crossbos only in that it has different critical properties, and it fires icicles or javelins (you use the icechucker's damage in place of the javelin's). I think the javelins always survive the attack (unlike crossbow bolts), so it's cheaper to use silvered ammunition (for overcoming the DR of undead).
#5 LordPhrofet Jul 04, 2011 20:41:01	Van Helsing joke here.> Dumping all of your money into your weapon is usually a bad idea. You're so heavily invested on one specific line of offense that your defense will really suffer and you may not last long enough between encounters to stay active as the day runs dry. The rules you're using for "self-stringing" are what, again? My A&EG is in another province at the moment.  Why a great crossbow and not one of the simple weapon variants instead? If the answer is "more damage", think again, since generally taking an EWP for a bigger weapon (on those grounds alone) is a poor choice. You'll actually be able to dramatically improve your damage output (assuming smite arrow is exactly like normal smite, except with ranged attacks) by using  Penetrating Shot (the "extra damage" it refers to is almost certainly in the form of damage dice, which Smite is not). Yes, it costs you a standard action, so no full attacks, but at your level (and the level it becomes available to you), your full attack is two shots, while the 60' line could hit as many as 12 and still leave you free to move. You haven't said what books are available to you. Given what you've suggested, if every book is available, I'd mention going towards Peerless Archer (Silver Marches; lets you power attack with ranged weapons) and taking Favored Power Attack (gives you incredible power attack vs favored enemies; Smite is giving you the extra attack bonus). I forget if it works on crossbows though - I know it says "bows" in the description, but the mechanics say "ranged attack rolls" and so on. You only need 3 levels to get this ability, the abilities on the other levels are handy, and the prerequisites are mostly the feats you'd want anyway (Point Blank, Far Shot, Precise Shot). The only other drawback is it's a 3e class, but the update is pretty straightforward. Devoted Tracker is still worth taking even if you don't Supermount it - Supermount just lets you double-up on the mount abilities, which is pretty slick, but Devoted Tracker lets you only take the opening few levels of Paladin (the only ones that are really worthwhile) and focus on Ranger (which gets some sick sniping spells) without losing your smite potential. Taking Extra Smiting wherever possible can make up for the loss. The mount, if you have it, is your breakpoint on paladin. If in doubt, take more Ranger rather than a prestige class (but only if you're in doubt, and if the PrC advances smiting, you probably should be in doubt). Other than what's been said here, there really isn't a lot of crossbow support out there. I'm not 100% sure on how that changes given full attacks; you might have better luck looking through existing archer builds and seeing how many of them will work without specifying "bow". The reason i am taking the greatcrossbow is both a theamtic and mechanical reason. Going for that machine gun support style idea and the damage is pretty good. With crossbow sniper and improved favored enemy my damage is at a +10 without even taking into account smiting or magical enhancements. Also at this lvl i will have 3 attacks not 2 (11/6/1). Regretfully peerless archer is bow only and the power shot does say bow and my DM is naying that one for crossbow. The rules for self-loading (sorry not selfstinging my fault) re strings itself. My DM is ruling that with the quick loading enhancement the bolt will just fall into place as the crossbow restrings itself. I am not complaining and his is only charging me an extra 10k for it. With keen/improved critical i know have a full attack 2d8 15-20/x2 weapon. My DM said i can homebrew a deity for pious templar which would allow me to take driving attack and ranged weapon mastery but i am not sure if it is a good idea. Right now i am between hunter of the dead, pious templar, or a mounted archery type using a less efective supermount (trying to not piss my DM with something that powerfull). But I am open to other options and again thanks for all the help.
#6 Maat_Mons Jul 04, 2011 21:19:54	Would you consider arctic elf, desert elf, painted elf (Sandstorm), or wild elf? Keen and improved critical don't stack in 3.5. Where's the 2d8 damage coming from?
#7 LordPhrofet Jul 04, 2011 22:14:11	Would you consider arctic elf, desert elf, painted elf (Sandstorm), or wild elf? Keen and improved critical don't stack in 3.5. Where's the 2d8 damage coming from? I meant keen OR improved critical (not sure which will be better for this build) and the 2d8 is the base damage for the great crossbow from races of stone Yes i would consider the variant elves....MAD is a small issue with a ranger/paladin ranged combat build so i need something that offers good dex and cha. Str is my dump stat but i need wisdom for my will saves and spot (all my saves if i take hunter of the dead) int for skill points and con for hp. I would rather stay away from things with an LA but i am willing to look at LA+1 if there is a REALLY good one. And i do not want to be large sized.
#8 Maat_Mons Jul 04, 2011 22:34:20	2d8 is the base damage for the great crossbow from races of stone Oh, I was looking in Arms and Equipment Guide.