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Greater Doppelganger

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shazamboi
Jan 21, 2013 23:45:02 Just a quick question. Where is Greater Doppelganger (Bookwise)?
#2
draco1119
Jan 22, 2013 0:44:11 Never heard of it. The doppelgänger can be found in MM1 and Races of Dedtiny, though.
#3
Ahruhn
Jan 22, 2013 1:25:21 Monsters of Faerun, pg 35

This is a 3rd edition book though which I don't believe was ever updated to 3.5 so there would be some adjustments that would have to be made to use it using 3.5 rules.
#4
Lashius
Jan 22, 2013 2:39:46
Monsters of Faerun, pg 35

This is a 3rd edition book though which I don't believe was ever updated to 3.5 so there would be some adjustments that would have to be made to use it using 3.5 rules.

Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.<

That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12).
#5
Slagger_the_Chuul
Jan 22, 2013 9:09:53
Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.<

That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12).

I don't know about it being all that strong.

Its best ability is being able to consume and use identities, and that depends on it eating the brain of a creature that it has already beaten. Sure, the DM could arbitrarily give it extra power from the brain of an unusually powerful victim, but I wouldn't call that part of its normal CR.
#6
Lashius
Jan 22, 2013 9:28:15
Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.<

That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12).

I don't know about it being all that strong.

Its best ability is being able to consume and use identities, and that depends on it eating the brain of a creature that it has already beaten. Sure, the DM could arbitrarily give it extra power from the brain of an unusually powerful victim, but I wouldn't call that part of its normal CR.

I think the real nastiness of it comes from potential polymorph shinanigens at the hands of players. The thing only has 9 HD if I recall, meaning it could easily be a favored form of a master transmogrifist (complete arcane if you're unaware of the class specifics). Combining the ability to gain class abilities via the ingestion of a brain only gets worse when you use the class to combine it with the base abilities of an elder brain of thoon (15 HD if I recall, making it just fit the bill for another favored form) who has a natural brain extract ability (if not a regular mindflayer form, ana ulitharid would work just fine). I'm sure I can think of other ways just letting that thing exist in a game can make things complicating for a DM, but I'd rather not think about it.

I suppose if you have players that aren't tempted to use such outlandish methods it would be fun flavor for a game, but I've seen to many seemingly week monsters with odd powers like it abused to be comfortable with using it myself.

EDIT: Just checked the elder brain of thoon out, it doesn't have an extract ability, but it does have some nasty selections unto itself.
#7
Slagger_the_Chuul
Jan 22, 2013 11:20:17 The master transmogrifist is slowed down on their access to supernatural abilities by their delayed casting, and it wouldn't really combine with their prestige class abilities (since the consumed forms aren't favoured shapes, and consume identity isn't one of the specified spells).

You'd find more abuse with it through just regular shapechange, and you could access it earlier with something like Assume Supernatural Ability, but it still ultimately depends on you killing a Medium humanoid victim who is strong enough to be useful (and on doing that on a daily basis, since you'll lose your collected personalities every time your greater doppelganger form runs out).
#8
Lashius
Jan 22, 2013 12:02:25
The master transmogrifist is slowed down on their access to supernatural abilities by their delayed casting, and it wouldn't really combine with their prestige class abilities (since the consumed forms aren't favoured shapes, and consume identity isn't one of the specified spells).

I'll agree that the caster decrease is a slight road bump, but in terms of just plain caster level it's easily made up for with practiced spell caster, otherwise yes the lack of spell advancement can hurt. However as a favored form the power mostly lay in the ability to pick and chose from another monsters ability to add on to it, I.E. a mindflayers extract+Consume Indetity=instant ilithid savant. Like you said (below) it would require the use of assume supernatural ability in the first place to work that early a level but it still leaves the option open.

You'd find more abuse with it through just regular shapechange, and you could access it earlier with something like Assume Supernatural Ability, but it still ultimately depends on you killing a Medium humanoid victim who is strong enough to be useful (and on doing that on a daily basis, since you'll lose your collected personalities every time your greater doppelganger form runs out).

This is where shenanigans can kick in and get really nasty. As a caster you can get things like charm-X/dominate-X in order to get people to do things that seem harmless enough ("hey, spend the night over at my place tonight" proceed to cope de grace sleeping person and then eat brain) but another thing that could happen is what I will handily refer to as "the world map effect". If you've ever played any RPG that involves travailing a world map (a classic example is the final fantasy series) generally the adventuring party is represented by the lead roles avatar, so essentially the entire party is riding around inside of him. In the case of a person using polymorph abuse if the party has one cleric and a few scrolls of revivify the offender could easily just eat the brains of his party members and then have them resurrected effectively carrying the abilities of the party inside of him (minus the cleric). Granted as you said all the stuff you get is limited but still, I feal it can be abused by people who look for it.
#9
Slagger_the_Chuul
Jan 22, 2013 14:27:14 If you're already dominating people, eating their brains to make use of their abilities is adding an unnecessary step, especially since the dominate effects last a lot longer than the shapechanging ones. I mean, it's probably adding a level of fun, but in terms of the benefits, it seems like you'd end up using more powerful effects to access less powerful ones.

Mind you, it would be easier to evaluate if the consume identity ability was clearer about what it was actually doing in terms of game mechanics.
#10
Lashius
Jan 24, 2013 2:29:05 Looking into it I kind of see your point on the actual statistics of the ability being vague. I would assume class abilities since it explicitly mentions the lack of cleric spell casting past level 2 spells, but it's access is restricted if the creature acts outside of alignment standards, so i suppose it balances itself out.
#11
EruditeApe
Jan 24, 2013 4:18:24
If you're already dominating people, eating their brains to make use of their abilities is adding an unnecessary step, especially since the dominate effects last a lot longer than the shapechanging ones. I mean, it's probably adding a level of fun, but in terms of the benefits, it seems like you'd end up using more powerful effects to access less powerful ones.

Mind you, it would be easier to evaluate if the consume identity ability was clearer about what it was actually doing in terms of game mechanics.

Mind switch for keeps. Problem solved
#12
shazamboi
Mar 24, 2013 23:11:34 Can't you get Assume Supernatural ability and Racial Emulation on a Changeling for "Illithid Savant" at level 1?
Edit: Flaw for bonus feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shazamboi Jan 21, 2013 23:45:02	Just a quick question. Where is Greater Doppelganger (Bookwise)?
#2 draco1119 Jan 22, 2013 0:44:11	Never heard of it. The doppelgänger can be found in MM1 and Races of Dedtiny, though.
#3 Ahruhn Jan 22, 2013 1:25:21	Monsters of Faerun, pg 35 This is a 3rd edition book though which I don't believe was ever updated to 3.5 so there would be some adjustments that would have to be made to use it using 3.5 rules.
#4 Lashius Jan 22, 2013 2:39:46	Monsters of Faerun, pg 35 This is a 3rd edition book though which I don't believe was ever updated to 3.5 so there would be some adjustments that would have to be made to use it using 3.5 rules. Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.< That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12).
#5 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 22, 2013 9:09:53	Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.< That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12). I don't know about it being all that strong. Its best ability is being able to consume and use identities, and that depends on it eating the brain of a creature that it has already beaten. Sure, the DM could arbitrarily give it extra power from the brain of an unusually powerful victim, but I wouldn't call that part of its normal CR.
#6 Lashius Jan 22, 2013 9:28:15	Such as burning it with fire for starters. >.< That thing is stupid strong for it's CR (12). I don't know about it being all that strong. Its best ability is being able to consume and use identities, and that depends on it eating the brain of a creature that it has already beaten. Sure, the DM could arbitrarily give it extra power from the brain of an unusually powerful victim, but I wouldn't call that part of its normal CR. I think the real nastiness of it comes from potential polymorph shinanigens at the hands of players. The thing only has 9 HD if I recall, meaning it could easily be a favored form of a master transmogrifist (complete arcane if you're unaware of the class specifics). Combining the ability to gain class abilities via the ingestion of a brain only gets worse when you use the class to combine it with the base abilities of an elder brain of thoon (15 HD if I recall, making it just fit the bill for another favored form) who has a natural brain extract ability (if not a regular mindflayer form, ana ulitharid would work just fine). I'm sure I can think of other ways just letting that thing exist in a game can make things complicating for a DM, but I'd rather not think about it. I suppose if you have players that aren't tempted to use such outlandish methods it would be fun flavor for a game, but I've seen to many seemingly week monsters with odd powers like it abused to be comfortable with using it myself. EDIT: Just checked the elder brain of thoon out, it doesn't have an extract ability, but it does have some nasty selections unto itself.
#7 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 22, 2013 11:20:17	The master transmogrifist is slowed down on their access to supernatural abilities by their delayed casting, and it wouldn't really combine with their prestige class abilities (since the consumed forms aren't favoured shapes, and consume identity isn't one of the specified spells). You'd find more abuse with it through just regular shapechange, and you could access it earlier with something like Assume Supernatural Ability, but it still ultimately depends on you killing a Medium humanoid victim who is strong enough to be useful (and on doing that on a daily basis, since you'll lose your collected personalities every time your greater doppelganger form runs out).
#8 Lashius Jan 22, 2013 12:02:25	The master transmogrifist is slowed down on their access to supernatural abilities by their delayed casting, and it wouldn't really combine with their prestige class abilities (since the consumed forms aren't favoured shapes, and consume identity isn't one of the specified spells). I'll agree that the caster decrease is a slight road bump, but in terms of just plain caster level it's easily made up for with practiced spell caster, otherwise yes the lack of spell advancement can hurt. However as a favored form the power mostly lay in the ability to pick and chose from another monsters ability to add on to it, I.E. a mindflayers extract+Consume Indetity=instant ilithid savant. Like you said (below) it would require the use of assume supernatural ability in the first place to work that early a level but it still leaves the option open. You'd find more abuse with it through just regular shapechange, and you could access it earlier with something like Assume Supernatural Ability, but it still ultimately depends on you killing a Medium humanoid victim who is strong enough to be useful (and on doing that on a daily basis, since you'll lose your collected personalities every time your greater doppelganger form runs out). This is where shenanigans can kick in and get really nasty. As a caster you can get things like charm-X/dominate-X in order to get people to do things that seem harmless enough ("hey, spend the night over at my place tonight" proceed to cope de grace sleeping person and then eat brain) but another thing that could happen is what I will handily refer to as "the world map effect". If you've ever played any RPG that involves travailing a world map (a classic example is the final fantasy series) generally the adventuring party is represented by the lead roles avatar, so essentially the entire party is riding around inside of him. In the case of a person using polymorph abuse if the party has one cleric and a few scrolls of revivify the offender could easily just eat the brains of his party members and then have them resurrected effectively carrying the abilities of the party inside of him (minus the cleric). Granted as you said all the stuff you get is limited but still, I feal it can be abused by people who look for it.
#9 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 22, 2013 14:27:14	If you're already dominating people, eating their brains to make use of their abilities is adding an unnecessary step, especially since the dominate effects last a lot longer than the shapechanging ones. I mean, it's probably adding a level of fun, but in terms of the benefits, it seems like you'd end up using more powerful effects to access less powerful ones. Mind you, it would be easier to evaluate if the consume identity ability was clearer about what it was actually doing in terms of game mechanics.
#10 Lashius Jan 24, 2013 2:29:05	Looking into it I kind of see your point on the actual statistics of the ability being vague. I would assume class abilities since it explicitly mentions the lack of cleric spell casting past level 2 spells, but it's access is restricted if the creature acts outside of alignment standards, so i suppose it balances itself out.
#11 EruditeApe Jan 24, 2013 4:18:24	If you're already dominating people, eating their brains to make use of their abilities is adding an unnecessary step, especially since the dominate effects last a lot longer than the shapechanging ones. I mean, it's probably adding a level of fun, but in terms of the benefits, it seems like you'd end up using more powerful effects to access less powerful ones. Mind you, it would be easier to evaluate if the consume identity ability was clearer about what it was actually doing in terms of game mechanics. Mind switch for keeps. Problem solved
#12 shazamboi Mar 24, 2013 23:11:34	Can't you get Assume Supernatural ability and Racial Emulation on a Changeling for "Illithid Savant" at level 1? Edit: Flaw for bonus feat.