Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 12, 2010 1:52:16	What is the best way to optimize an unarmed character... I was thinking of using the chaos monk variant, with two handed strikes to treat my unarmed as 2 handed weapons. Then to use power attack, maybe some fist of the forest, and maybe use the Magic of incarnum to gain a pair of mauling gauntlets, which would improve my unarmed damage, if I took the feat to bind them as well.  Ultimately looking for an optimized pugilist... would the barbarian variant that goes unarmed, plus reaping mauler be more viable?  And if not, what's the best that can be suggested.  Note: I want no shapechanging ect.
#2 lormador Aug 12, 2010 7:21:21	I believe the Black Blood Cultist currently has the honors for nastiest grapple-and-damage. I imagine it's more of a submission style than ground-and-pound though.
#3 Maat_Mons Aug 12, 2010 11:36:49	Here's a simple build: monk 1 / ardent X. Take monastic training (Eberron Campaign Setting) and tashalatora (Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona). This lets you stack monk and ardent levels to determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows, and unarmed damage. Ardent (Complete Psionic) gets full manifesting based on wisdom, cleric attack bonus, and d6 hit dice. An ardent can give himself up to 10 times his level temporary hit points at a rate of 10 hit points per power point. This means you can effectively have over 4,000 hit points at 20th level. An ardent can manifest inertial armor for an armor bonus that starts at +4 at 1st level and can get up to around +15 at 20th level. This is fully compatible with a monk's AC bonus. You can pay a spell-to-power erudite 16,530 gp to manifest psychic chirurgery to give you the ability to manifest greater mighty wallop (Races of the Dragon). This lets you deal unarmed strike damage as though you were a size category larger per 4 manifester levels, up to colossal. This ultimately results is 12d8 damage per hit.
#4 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 12, 2010 13:34:58	Is that not possible with a psychic warrior then? I've got complete psionic, but never really read it, looked bad to me.  And also, does this allow Chaos monk, which seems better... and would 2h strikes be viable then? Which book is Black Blood Cultist in? Cos if it's a grpapler may be worth using reaping mauler
#5 akusokuzon45 Aug 12, 2010 13:48:15	AFAIK (and remember) Reaping Mauler is a fairly underpowered class.  The feats to get in are a little meh, and the abilities it grants aren't fantastic.  The ability to choke out an enemy in 3 rounds may sound awesome, but at 12d8 per hit flurrying for 6 hits in a round you're doing 972 theoretical damage in that time - which I think is better than forcing saves and trying to win grapple checks against monsters that are essentially designed to grapple you at high levels.  It's hard to keep grappling as levels go up because monster size and strength (and arbitrary racial boni) go up faster than you can really keep up.  I'll go with the 972 damage, thanks.
#6 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 12, 2010 14:00:37	Fair play. It's for an 8th level game, but i'm looking at a theoretical 20 level build. Since my character is meant to be a bouncer. So reaping mauler seemed ideal, but can you get it's class abilities as feats anyway?  Need to add giant size and grapple as though colossal.   But seriously. Anyone know where that... an't think who suggested it or where the class is... black blood whatsit is... bookwise?
#7 Maat_Mons Aug 12, 2010 17:17:09	Tashalatora works with psychic warrior and any other psionic class. It only works for a single selected class though. Complete Psionic has a lot of crap in it, but ardent is pretty good. It's like a tougher, wisdom-based psion with fewer powers known and a more limited selection of powers. If you feel you need the feats, psychic warrior is good, but you need to be conservative of power points. Chaos monk should still count as monk, so tashalatora should still let your levels stack for AC bonus and unarmed damage. Since flailing strike is essentially a variant of flurry of blows, it would make sense to allow your levels to stack for that, but you'll have to ask your DM. The only way I know of to make a two-handed unarmed strike is with the hammer fist feat (Races of Faerun). That feat is dwarf-only and forbids you from using it with flurry of blows. Actually, flurry of blows already says you can't add 1.5*str to damage while using it. (A quarterstaff can normally be used to add 1.5*str to damage if you only attack with one end.) I think you should aim to have the two-weapon fighting feat and buy gloves of the balanced hands (Magic Item Compendium), which give you improved two-weapon fighting if you already have two-weapon fighting. Don't bother with too much dex. You only need to hit 15, and that can be with gloves of dexterity. Assuming you can't gain the benefit of improved two-weapon fighting until your base attack bonus reaches 6, you wouldn't even really need the two-weapon fighting feat until next level. According to Google, black blood cultist is from Champions of Ruin. Based on the handbook, it looks like savage grapple is the class' shtick.
#8 Maat_Mons Aug 12, 2010 21:09:26	For accessing greater mighty wallop, you might want to see how your DM feels about researching new powers (Expanded Psionics Handbook 64). If you're going with psychic warrior, you might even be able to get it knocked down to level 2.
#9 lormador Aug 13, 2010 2:57:39	Black Blood Cultist is from Champions of Ruin. It's been used along with several other freaky things- like lizardfolk, the Scaled Horror PrC from Savage Species, and a level of ye old Pouncing Barbarian- to make characters that pounce/grapple on a charge/kill quickly. The most powerful ability of the build comes from an 8th level feature of Black Blood Cultist- a bizarre feature that says something like, when you win a grapple check, you inflict damage equal to all your natural attacks. There's a really nice handbook on it. Search for: Black Blood Cultist Handbook: A Grappler's Manual and don't get me started on why I can't just post the link.
#10 Senevri Aug 13, 2010 7:16:53	Is that not possible with a psychic warrior then? I've got complete psionic, but never really read it, looked bad to me.  There's quite a bit of bad stuff in CPsi, but Ardent isn't one of them. It's awesome.
#11 Gavinfox Aug 13, 2010 23:30:22	Yea, the others have said it -- If you want to actually be GOOD at Grappling, just be a Monk2/PsyWar18 with the feats to support it, or something like that! Or be a Druid 20, shapeshift into something big with improved grab and rake, or something!
#12 lormador Aug 14, 2010 4:02:14	A good grapple check is only half the battle for this character, though. I understand the tactics of ground-and-pound to be to execute a takedown, obtain a dominant position, and achieve victory by KO/TKO by means of strikes. The problem with the Black Blood Cultist idea, for this build, is that it achieves ultimate victory through grapple checks- the Savage Grapple ability is the centerpiece around which the whole class revolves. Traditional grapple builds face a similar problem- they mazimize the grapple check and then proceed to damage the opponent by means of this check. It's effective, but it's not what the OP asked for. He asked for Ground-and-Pound, not submission fighting. I think an unarmed tripping build, with an emphasis on unarmed strike damage and a touch of grapple, would be more accurate. Maybe some kind of Goliath Swordsage (Unarmed)/Fighter with the appropriate feats would be close. Some of the Setting Sun and Stone Dragon techniques would be useful to have.
#13 Senevri Aug 14, 2010 6:44:03	Good point, lormador.  Maybe... Yes. TWF Tiger Claw build with necessary tripping ability (or hey, knockdown) with, maybe, spirit lion totem barbarian? Trip + full attack. Go with supreme unarmed strike, and get 6+ hits eventually with mongoose line. Is there something we can do to benefit entering the opponent's square? (besides getting an AoO if he tries to leave the square -- which is a nice benefit in and as itself, already.)
#14 Gavinfox Aug 14, 2010 23:31:52	...Play a Choker?
#15 The_Crimson_Dawn Aug 15, 2010 22:25:14	Ask for the heavy arms graft (or play a warforged) and get some battlefists.  Nothing like cheaper (compared to the necklaces) magic weapons and a size boost to your fists.