Gwyllgi Wants Help With a Build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Krusk Oct 24, 2011 10:12:59	Gwyllgi wants help with a build. These are his perameters. I want stealth, some measure of armor, and spontanous arcane casting. so like batman but with fireballs...
#2 Maat_Mons Oct 24, 2011 12:52:41	One option is battle sorcerer with draconic heritage and martial study to gain hide and move silently as class skills.
#3 gwyllgi Oct 24, 2011 15:53:39	so far my group (we play gestalt) has said i should go either warmage (armor and fireballs) or beguiler(Stealth and fireballs), then pick a class which represents the unrepresented third to the fullest. however, when i think about it If i choose beguiler both the fighter and barbarian don't work well enough with it, the fighter works too much like a weapon master, so i'd have to PrC out of it after milking it to make a chosen weapon the best i can do with it. And the barbarian well, sucks and cant work with magic very well.
#4 Maat_Mons Oct 24, 2011 16:29:23	Beguiler does get to cast in light armor, but doesn't gain fireball or anything similar. Beguiler mostly get illusion and enchantment magic. From what I can tell, you like stealth, melee, and direct-damage spells. Ranger//war mage does all those things. (Ranger//psion would be better, but if psion were an option for you, I assume it would have been one of the ideas you mentioned.) Perhaps you don't like the woodsy feel of ranger. In that case, you should look through the urban alternative class features for ranger. Here's a quick rundown. 1: Gather information, knowledge (local), sense motive, and tumble as class skills instead of handle animal, knowledge (nature), ride, and survival. 1: Use gather information checks to find people in cities instead of survival checks to follow creatures' footprints. 7: Move at normal speed through crowds. 13: No longer take penalties to hide when moving at full speed or using a distration to hide. 17: Hide in plain sight in any urban environment. There are alternatives to ranger's favored enemy, combat style, animal companion, and spellcasting too, if those bother you.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 24, 2011 17:03:56	so far my group (we play gestalt) has said i should go either warmage (armor and fireballs) or beguiler(Stealth and fireballs), then pick a class which represents the unrepresented third to the fullest. Just to clarify, his group is using far more than standard gestalt - it allows gestalting prestige classes so long as, if I'm reading it right, they don't advance the same class. If there's ANYTHING else you haven't told us, please tell us now or this is all for naught. however, when i think about it If i choose beguiler both the fighter and barbarian don't work well enough with it, the fighter works too much like a weapon master, so i'd have to PrC out of it after milking it to make a chosen weapon the best i can do with it. And the barbarian well, sucks and cant work with magic very well. You can get all of what you're looking for by gestalting Beguiler with Duskblade. Both get light-armor casting (you can use mithral breastplates with no trouble, or you can go for Featherweight mithral full plate) and cast plenty of Intelligence-based spells. The beguiler gets lots of skill points, stealth skills / Trapfinding, and support magic (including those you can use to hide) of up to 9th level, while the duskblade gets martial weaponry, a full base attack bonus, and lots of blasty damage spells (and by lots, I mean LOTS - lower-level than the beguiler, but almost to the level of a warlock here), along with Arcane Channelling (which lets you be a warrior and a mage at the same time). The majority of their class features will affect spells cast from either class - in fact, the only one that doesn't is the duskblade's improvements to Armored Mage and the beguiler's Advanced Learning. Cloaked Casting, Arcane Channelling, Surprise Casting, Quick Cast, and the beguiler's higher-level free metamagic can equally be applied to spells cast from either class, and function damn well in tandem. Likewise, several of the typical feats chosen for either character can be fueled by the magic of the other side - including giving a Duskblade 9th level spell slots to fuel Arcane Strike if you so choose (as apart from Time Stop and possibly Foresight, the beguiler's 9th level spell list is pretty tame). You can also use the beguiler's Advanced Learning to expand their spell list (since it modifies a spell list and not spells known you can't use it on your duskblade side), and pick spells that would enhance your general combat ability. A friend of mine played a beguiler at one point that made exceptional use out of Nightmare Terrain, which essentially grants Hide in Plain Sight as well as an AoE debuff. (Another one of his suggestions, Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon), would be worth considering - it gives you even more stamina, especially on the duskblade side.) Both classes are perfectly fine 1-20 as well, so you won't even need to look for prestige classes - although if you want, you can use beguiler to aim for Shadowcraft Mage (on either side, or split between the two "sides"; choose based on which class features you want), which will give you untold power and versatility on the blasting and conjuration side of magic. However, if you stick to just Beguiler//Duskblade, you'll have one real advantage at the table: depending on your feats, most of your character will be drawn from Core + ONE book (PHB2). That speeds up reference time pretty quickly! The one drawback to this approach is that it doesn't have access to much in the way of Transmutation, which can give you plenty of good buffs, but there's a few cheap ways around this. You may not need it, though - you're a fighter, a rogue, and a mage who can blast, confuse, and debuff with gusto, and I presume that another member of your team will be buffing.
#6 WebNinja Oct 24, 2011 20:52:59	Built correctly, with those rules, you can have a IL 17+ Swordsage14/Telflammar Shadowlord4/Fighter2 multipouncer, and a CL 17+ Wizard3/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade10/Uncanny Trickster 2(Bloodline Abuse) or X 2 on the other side. If the DM allows Bloodline levels, and rule they work on both sides of gestalt, well... Then you'll be looking into a much, much, much higher CL/IL. With those rules, it mitigates much of the disadvantages of each side of the gestalt. Normally, telflammar shadowlord is a pain to qualify into with the spellcasting prerequiste, requiring either loss on BAB from a arcane dip, a LA +1 template, or suboptimal classes or questionable rules interpretation.(Not so questionable in case of the Swordsages 3 DDoor maneuvers, but many DM's do not allow it). Maybe switch something for Jade Phoenix Mage, which progresses full IL and 8/10 casting with full bab and good abilities... It will, eventually, get you: 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers, Wis to AC(Which you can debatably change to INT with some Monk Feat i don't recall right now), Haste as a free action, Time Stop(!) as a free action, up to a boatload of full attacks per round via multipouncing, a myriad of touch attacks you can deliver with your fists if you go unarmed swordsage, and... Do i even need to say anything else? Even your stealth is covered, because it's FULL CASTING, and Swordsage and Telflammar Shadowlord both grant maaaany stealthy abilities.
#7 awaken_D_M_golem Nov 01, 2011 19:15:41	... Shadowcraft Mage ... Heh. I was asking on Caelic's bg thread what happens when you eat a 120% Real Miracle Cookie. And if you get a 120% Real sugar-fit. // PsyWar 20 ... so the Shadowcraft has Metamorphic Transfer and a whole bunch of get-out-of-combat-free combat abilities too.
#8 gwyllgi Nov 09, 2011 21:09:41	what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor? also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party?
#9 Krusk Nov 10, 2011 9:29:09	what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor? also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party? Prestige classes and gestalt work differently for almost every DM. Fighter 10//Wizard 10 Sometimes Fighter 10//wizard 5 /prestige 5 is cool. Sometimes it has to be fighter 5//wizard 5/prestige 5. Other times it can be fighter 5/prestige A 5//wizard 5/prestige B 5. Those are the big variations I have seen. Fear http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 10, 2011 15:01:50	what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor? also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party? Prestige classes and gestalt work differently for almost every DM. Fighter 10//Wizard 10 Sometimes Fighter 10//wizard 5 /prestige 5 is cool. Sometimes it has to be fighter 5//wizard 5/prestige 5. Other times it can be fighter 5/prestige A 5//wizard 5/prestige B 5. Those are the big variations I have seen. The bold one is the "official" one supported by the rules: A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters. The variants you're listing are variants on variants: (Fighter//Wizard 5) / Prestige 5 is one type of "partial gestalt" where the prestige class takes up both "slots". I've seen this used to get around the restriction of composite classes like theurges, but it's not common. (More common partial gestalts only allow particular classes to be gestalted.) Fighter // Wizard 5, then Prestige A // Prestige B 5 is what Gwyllgi's GM uses, and I honestly haven't seen it elsewhere. Fear http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0 Just giving this a +1. Very good resource. Gestalting Dread Necro with Paladin of Tyranny would be a good place to start, especially if your opening feat is Dreadful Wrath (that feat is crazy good). The paladin side is entirely for Aura of Despair and Charisma synergy in the first few levels; once you can qualify for things like Dread Witch or Nightmare Spinner, replace the paladin side first with them. You can replace Dread Necro with them after about level 8 if you want more prestige class abilities. If you want another possible alternative, Hexblade 4 on one side gives you a Dark Companion (PHB2) which lowers enemy saves even more, and gives you both Mettle (Fort/Will Evasion) and Arcane Resistance (Charisma to saves vs spells). Hmm. That's a pretty decent idea for a basic build, although it mixes Faerun and Eberron material rather gratuitously and relies on Gwyllgi's "you can gestalt two PrCs at the same time if they don't advance the same core" rule. The order isn't quite exact, but here's a skeleton: Dread NecromancerHOH 8 // Paladin of TyrannyUA 3 / Cleric 1 [DeathboundSC domain, PlanningPGTF domain] / HexbladeCW 4 Nightmare SpinnerCMAG 5 / Dread WitchHOH 5 (applying everything to Dread Necromancer) // Bone Knight5N 10 (applying everything to Cleric) Divine OracleCDIV 2 // Shadow AdeptPGTF 1 / MindbenderCARC 1. [Note: You'll almost certainly want to juggle the levels of Nightmare Spinner, Dread Witch, Divine Oracle, Shadow Adept and Mindbender to get desirable abilities earlier, even as you race for Bone Knight 10. Build the character level-by-level and remember that classes can take up either "side" of the progression as you see fit.] Feat-wise, go Tomb-Tainted SoulLM , Dreadful WrathPGTF, Shadow Weave MagicPGTF, BattlecasterCARC (Dread Necromancer), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion)* and the rest is pretty much free. Good options include the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell route, the Corpsecrafter line (if you want this, consider replacing Tomb-Tainted Soul with the NecropolitanLM template), or perhaps even Leadership / Undead Leadership. If you want, Imperious Command (plus the Never Outnumbered skill trick) gives you another fear option and synergizes with Bone Knight, but may not be ideal since you may not be prioritizing the demoralize route to fear. If you time the Mindbender // Divine Oracle level to coincide with a level you gain a feat, you can pick up MindsightLOM if you want, which will let you sense just about anything that thinks, but this is optional. If you can get the Unnatural Aura trait from Dragon Magazine (discussed in the Fear Handbook), do it; the DC boost to fear effects will apply to just about everything you've got and the drawback is negligable. In any case, the discussion of feats (and really everything else) in the Revised Necromancer Handbook is well worth a read. I know there's a way to get this "for free" using a wonderous location, but I forget exactly what it is since I don't usually build divine casters. This approach will be: Good with weapons (full martial proficiency, nearly full base attack, bonecraft weaponry) and have very good armor (you'll be able to walk around in a skeletal breastplate and still cast your Dread Necro spells without failure) Ridiculously* good at leading armies of the undead (gaining super corpsecrafting abilities from the Dread Necromancer and Bone Knight put together, plus you should have essentially full or nearly full rebuking (which is treated SEPARATELY from the Bone Knight's abilities!), further boosted by the Deathbound domain), and a decent array of spellcasting (both arcane and divine) to support your undead creations. Very good with fear effects (including several passive aura-like fear effects and saving throw hosers, plus a positively ungodly Intimidate score) Surprisingly tough with good saving throws (including Charisma to all saving throws (or DOUBLE Charisma to saves vs spells) and an Evasion effect on all three of them) and a laundry list of immunities (by my count, this includes immunity to fear, poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage (Str/Dex/Con only), ability drain, energy drain, death from massive damage, stunning, nonlethal damage, and critical hits/sneak attacks, and this is without making yourself undead via Necropolitan or something.) You will cast as an 18th level Dread Necromancer and a 12th level Cleric, with caster level boosts for Necromancy, Enchantment, and Illusion, and some amazing Fear synergy on most of those spells. The only drawback to this approach is it's kind of MAD due to the divine casting, although you'll only need 16 Wisdom to cast the strongest divine spells you'll get.
#11 Slagger_the_Chuul Nov 10, 2011 15:50:39	Build the character level-by-level and remember that classes can take up either "side" of the progression as you see fit. Ick, that misleading idea again about gestalt classes having sides. I understand that it's handy to write it as if it's like that when describing what goes into the gestalt, but it doesn't actually have any mechanical effect.
#12 gwyllgi Nov 11, 2011 0:58:47	okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30?
#13 Krusk Nov 11, 2011 10:24:04	The bold one is the "official" one supported by the rules: My main point was "Check with your DM because this is frequently house ruled or done differently. Double check you are clear on how it works".
#14 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 12, 2011 14:51:28	okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30? Gwyllgi, I've responded to each of your 14 posts, and in roughly a third of them, you keep adding new requirements to your request instead of stating them up front. In none of your posts have you worked on your build. From the CO Board FAQ (At the top of the forum index), you could find this. It was written around eight years ago, but is still relevant today. 2) Help me threads are where you ask for advice or help on your character. You may ask how to make the best archer or ask advice on whether or not to take a certain prestige class. Or basically ask for any kind of help. Etiquette: First off it can be very rude to simply demand that someone make you a character. Additionally since there are so many ways to make a character it is best if you supply what you were thinking about in the first place and let people give you ideas from there. And finally there is no such thing as a free lunch, so you need to put in some work yourself. So instead of saying “Min/Max Me a Cleric”. Instead say “Could I have help min/maxing the character I include below. I really want to have the destruction domain, any suggestions for maximizing that aspect?” I think you will find that the more effort you put in yourself, the more help you will get. You will find this board will be FAR more helpful to you if you put in some work yourself. I was able to take the build skeleton I wrote on the previous page and make it "standard-gestalt compatible" with minimal effort (I removed all the prestige classes that affect the arcane side - losing the Dread Witch's ability to apply fear in spite of fear immunities hurts a bit, but I figure that of the two approaches, undead mastery would be more powerful, so I sacrificed fear. Likewise, although Dread Necro 9+ is less useful on its own, since I'm relying on Bone Knight on the divine side, I don't have the option of prestiging on the arcane side.). This even has an obvious epic progression that will jump right out at you once you see it (look for your highest-level base class and your only level 10 prestige class). Go ahead and give it a try. The only thing that varies between the prestige/prestige gestalts and the standard gestalt is the feat selection, given how you don't need Shadow Weave Magic anymore. At level 1 with the Planning domain, cloistered cleric (move it ahead of Paladin of Tyranny), and two flaws, the feats I chose were Dreadful Wrath, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate), Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion. Since you get two sets of Rebuking* and favor Charisma, this can actually let you raise zombies from level 1. The next feats, in order, were Corpsecrafter, [Nimble Bones OR Destructive Retribution OR Undead Leadership, depending on your preferences and playstyle], Battlecaster, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion). I didn't do the epic feats because, honestly, epic play doesn't interest me, and given what I've seen from your posts, there are probably a ton of houserules on how to handle that as well that you haven't told us, so I'll leave the epic feats as an exercise. (I would strongly suggest Epic Spellcasting, though.) * Technically technically gestalt Dread Necro // Cleric would prevent you from getting Rebuke Undead twice, since it's the same class feature at the same level, despite coming from two separate classes. (This is probably waived in general, though, since technically "Spells" are the same class feature, and no one doubts Wizard // Sorcerer works... even though most of us would probably rule that Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter 1 doesn't get 2d6 sneak attack. This is one of the many areas that Gestalt needs specific DM rulings, which is one area that only your DM can provide for you). If you're looking for a cheesy way to get around this just in case, start as Lawful Neutral and choose to channel positive energy as a cleric. This gives you Turn Undead as a cleric and Rebuke Undead as a dread necromancer. Use your dread powers for as much evil as possible at level 1, becoming Lawful Evil as you enter Paladin of Tyranny. You may lose your Turn Undead / Divine Metamagic powers at this point, but an Atonement spell (which usually comes with a quest, so your DM can help with that) can restore it as Rebuke Undead then. If you don't have access to Atonement (since it's usually DM-controlled), your first level of Bone Knight also restores it as Rebuke Undead; you can take the first level of Bone Knight at character level 5 if you want. (I delayed it to get the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Dark Companion, but nothing stops you from taking Bone Knight early. It's a great class, it really is; the only reason I delayed it was because it's most powerful when you can cast Animate Dead.)
#15 gwyllgi Nov 16, 2011 23:19:19	okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30? Gwyllgi, I've responded to each of your 14 posts, and in roughly a third of them, you keep adding new requirements to your request instead of stating them up front. In none of your posts have you worked on your build. From the CO Board FAQ (At the top of the forum index), you could find this. It was written around eight years ago, but is still relevant today. 2) Help me threads are where you ask for advice or help on your character. You may ask how to make the best archer or ask advice on whether or not to take a certain prestige class. Or basically ask for any kind of help. Etiquette: First off it can be very rude to simply demand that someone make you a character. Additionally since there are so many ways to make a character it is best if you supply what you were thinking about in the first place and let people give you ideas from there. And finally there is no such thing as a free lunch, so you need to put in some work yourself. So instead of saying “Min/Max Me a Cleric”. Instead say “Could I have help min/maxing the character I include below. I really want to have the destruction domain, any suggestions for maximizing that aspect?” I think you will find that the more effort you put in yourself, the more help you will get. You will find this board will be FAR more helpful to you if you put in some work yourself. I was able to take the build skeleton I wrote on the previous page and make it "standard-gestalt compatible" with minimal effort (I removed all the prestige classes that affect the arcane side - losing the Dread Witch's ability to apply fear in spite of fear immunities hurts a bit, but I figure that of the two approaches, undead mastery would be more powerful, so I sacrificed fear. Likewise, although Dread Necro 9+ is less useful on its own, since I'm relying on Bone Knight on the divine side, I don't have the option of prestiging on the arcane side.). This even has an obvious epic progression that will jump right out at you once you see it (look for your highest-level base class and your only level 10 prestige class). Go ahead and give it a try. The only thing that varies between the prestige/prestige gestalts and the standard gestalt is the feat selection, given how you don't need Shadow Weave Magic anymore. At level 1 with the Planning domain, cloistered cleric (move it ahead of Paladin of Tyranny), and two flaws, the feats I chose were Dreadful Wrath, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate), Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion. Since you get two sets of Rebuking* and favor Charisma, this can actually let you raise zombies from level 1. The next feats, in order, were Corpsecrafter, [Nimble Bones OR Destructive Retribution OR Undead Leadership, depending on your preferences and playstyle], Battlecaster, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion). I didn't do the epic feats because, honestly, epic play doesn't interest me, and given what I've seen from your posts, there are probably a ton of houserules on how to handle that as well that you haven't told us, so I'll leave the epic feats as an exercise. (I would strongly suggest Epic Spellcasting, though.) * Technically technically gestalt Dread Necro // Cleric would prevent you from getting Rebuke Undead twice, since it's the same class feature at the same level, despite coming from two separate classes. (This is probably waived in general, though, since technically "Spells" are the same class feature, and no one doubts Wizard // Sorcerer works... even though most of us would probably rule that Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter 1 doesn't get 2d6 sneak attack. This is one of the many areas that Gestalt needs specific DM rulings, which is one area that only your DM can provide for you). If you're looking for a cheesy way to get around this just in case, start as Lawful Neutral and choose to channel positive energy as a cleric. This gives you Turn Undead as a cleric and Rebuke Undead as a dread necromancer. Use your dread powers for as much evil as possible at level 1, becoming Lawful Evil as you enter Paladin of Tyranny. You may lose your Turn Undead / Divine Metamagic powers at this point, but an Atonement spell (which usually comes with a quest, so your DM can help with that) can restore it as Rebuke Undead then. If you don't have access to Atonement (since it's usually DM-controlled), your first level of Bone Knight also restores it as Rebuke Undead; you can take the first level of Bone Knight at character level 5 if you want. (I delayed it to get the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Dark Companion, but nothing stops you from taking Bone Knight early. It's a great class, it really is; the only reason I delayed it was because it's most powerful when you can cast Animate Dead.)
#16 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 17, 2011 13:11:32	If you can't mix them, drop Dreadful Wrath in favor of any other feat that looks interesting, or drop it and take one less flaw. Dreadful Wrath is crazy good but expendable given the slightly lessened fear focus (i.e. there's no Imperious Command). If flaws also aren't allowed, drop the Fell Animate/Divine Meta(Fell Animate) OR the Persistent/Divine Meta(Persistent) approach. Persistent is probably better (as Divine Meta only applies to divine spells, and clerics get great buff effects, including in your case the amazing Consumptive Field, which, if made Persistent, essentially means unlimited temporary hit points and a 50% increase to your caster level), but you get it later. Fell Animate is really only useful to you on the Inflict line of spells (boosted with Charnel Touch) until you get things like Flame Strike and Blade Barrier, but by then you have Animate Dead itself. It'd only be useful if you want to have undead minions available at the very, very low levels, or if you want a stream of cheap disposable undead instead of sturdy, powerful, costly ones. The choices are yours and up to your DM as well. Please come back with a build.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Krusk

Oct 24, 2011 10:12:59

Gwyllgi wants help with a build. These are his perameters.

I want stealth, some measure of armor, and spontanous arcane casting. so like batman but with fireballs...

Maat_Mons

Oct 24, 2011 12:52:41

One option is battle sorcerer with draconic heritage and martial study to gain hide and move silently as class skills.

gwyllgi

Oct 24, 2011 15:53:39

so far my group (we play gestalt) has said i should go either warmage (armor and fireballs) or beguiler(Stealth and fireballs), then pick a class which represents the unrepresented third to the fullest.

however, when i think about it If i choose beguiler both the fighter and barbarian don't work well enough with it, the fighter works too much like a weapon master, so i'd have to PrC out of it after milking it to make a chosen weapon the best i can do with it. And the barbarian well, sucks and cant work with magic very well.

Maat_Mons

Oct 24, 2011 16:29:23

Beguiler does get to cast in light armor, but doesn't gain fireball or anything similar. Beguiler mostly get illusion and enchantment magic.

From what I can tell, you like stealth, melee, and direct-damage spells. Ranger//war mage does all those things. (Ranger//psion would be better, but if psion were an option for you, I assume it would have been one of the ideas you mentioned.)

Perhaps you don't like the woodsy feel of ranger. In that case, you should look through the urban alternative class features for ranger. Here's a quick rundown.

1: Gather information, knowledge (local), sense motive, and tumble as class skills instead of handle animal, knowledge (nature), ride, and survival.

1: Use gather information checks to find people in cities instead of survival checks to follow creatures' footprints.

7: Move at normal speed through crowds.

13: No longer take penalties to hide when moving at full speed or using a distration to hide.

17: Hide in plain sight in any urban environment.

There are alternatives to ranger's favored enemy, combat style, animal companion, and spellcasting too, if those bother you.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 24, 2011 17:03:56

so far my group (we play gestalt) has said i should go either warmage (armor and fireballs) or beguiler(Stealth and fireballs), then pick a class which represents the unrepresented third to the fullest.

Just to clarify, his group is using far more than standard gestalt - it allows gestalting prestige classes so long as, if I'm reading it right, they don't advance the same class.

If there's ANYTHING else you haven't told us, please tell us now or this is all for naught.

however, when i think about it If i choose beguiler both the fighter and barbarian don't work well enough with it, the fighter works too much like a weapon master, so i'd have to PrC out of it after milking it to make a chosen weapon the best i can do with it. And the barbarian well, sucks and cant work with magic very well.

You can get all of what you're looking for by gestalting Beguiler with Duskblade. Both get light-armor casting (you can use mithral breastplates with no trouble, or you can go for Featherweight mithral full plate) and cast plenty of Intelligence-based spells. The beguiler gets lots of skill points, stealth skills / Trapfinding, and support magic (including those you can use to hide) of up to 9th level, while the duskblade gets martial weaponry, a full base attack bonus, and lots of blasty damage spells (and by lots, I mean LOTS - lower-level than the beguiler, but almost to the level of a warlock here), along with Arcane Channelling (which lets you be a warrior and a mage at the same time).

The majority of their class features will affect spells cast from either class - in fact, the only one that doesn't is the duskblade's improvements to Armored Mage and the beguiler's Advanced Learning. Cloaked Casting, Arcane Channelling, Surprise Casting, Quick Cast, and the beguiler's higher-level free metamagic can equally be applied to spells cast from either class, and function damn well in tandem. Likewise, several of the typical feats chosen for either character can be fueled by the magic of the other side - including giving a Duskblade 9th level spell slots to fuel Arcane Strike if you so choose (as apart from Time Stop and possibly Foresight, the beguiler's 9th level spell list is pretty tame).

You can also use the beguiler's Advanced Learning to expand their spell list (since it modifies a spell list and not spells known you can't use it on your duskblade side), and pick spells that would enhance your general combat ability. A friend of mine played a beguiler at one point that made exceptional use out of Nightmare Terrain, which essentially grants Hide in Plain Sight as well as an AoE debuff. (Another one of his suggestions, Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon), would be worth considering - it gives you even *more* stamina, especially on the duskblade side.)

Both classes are perfectly fine 1-20 as well, so you won't even need to look for prestige classes - although if you want, you can use beguiler to aim for Shadowcraft Mage (on either side, or split between the two "sides"; choose based on which class features you want), which will give you untold power and versatility on the blasting and conjuration side of magic. However, if you stick to just Beguiler//Duskblade, you'll have one real advantage at the table: depending on your feats, most of your character will be drawn from Core + ONE book (PHB2). That speeds up reference time pretty quickly!

The one drawback to this approach is that it doesn't have access to much in the way of Transmutation, which can give you plenty of good buffs, but there's a few cheap ways around this. You may not need it, though - you're a fighter, a rogue, and a mage who can blast, confuse, and debuff with gusto, and I presume that another member of your team will be buffing.

WebNinja

Oct 24, 2011 20:52:59

Built correctly, with those rules, you can have a IL 17+ Swordsage14/Telflammar Shadowlord4/Fighter2 multipouncer, and a CL 17+ Wizard3/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade10/Uncanny Trickster 2(Bloodline Abuse) or X 2 on the other side. If the DM allows Bloodline levels, and rule they work on both sides of gestalt, well... Then you'll be looking into a much, much, much higher CL/IL. With those rules, it mitigates much of the disadvantages of each side of the gestalt. Normally, telflammar shadowlord is a pain to qualify into with the spellcasting prerequiste, requiring either loss on BAB from a arcane dip, a LA +1 template, or suboptimal classes or questionable rules interpretation.(Not so questionable in case of the Swordsages 3 DDoor maneuvers, but many DM's do not allow it). Maybe switch something for Jade Phoenix Mage, which progresses full IL and 8/10 casting with full bab and good abilities...

It will, eventually, get you: 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers, Wis to AC(Which you can debatably change to INT with some Monk Feat i don't recall right now), Haste as a free action, Time Stop(!) as a free action, up to a boatload of full attacks per round via multipouncing, a myriad of touch attacks you can deliver with your fists if you go unarmed swordsage, and... Do i even need to say anything else? Even your stealth is covered, because it's FULL CASTING, and Swordsage and Telflammar Shadowlord both grant maaaany stealthy abilities.

awaken_D_M_golem

Nov 01, 2011 19:15:41

... Shadowcraft Mage ...

Heh.
I was asking on Caelic's bg thread
what happens when you eat a 120% Real Miracle Cookie.
And if you get a 120% Real sugar-fit.

// PsyWar 20 ... so the Shadowcraft has Metamorphic Transfer
and a whole bunch of get-out-of-combat-free combat abilities too.

gwyllgi

Nov 09, 2011 21:09:41

what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor?

also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party?

Krusk

Nov 10, 2011 9:29:09

what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor?

also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party?

Prestige classes and gestalt work differently for almost every DM. Fighter 10//Wizard 10 Sometimes Fighter 10//wizard 5 /prestige 5 is cool. Sometimes it has to be fighter 5//wizard 5/prestige 5. Other times it can be fighter 5/prestige A 5//wizard 5/prestige B 5. Those are the big variations I have seen.

Fear http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0

#10

Tempest_Stormwind

Nov 10, 2011 15:01:50

what if i wanted to focus heavily on fear and dread necromancy without touching wiz or sor?

also how does PrC-ing work in a normal gestalt party?

Prestige classes and gestalt work differently for almost every DM. Fighter 10//Wizard 10 Sometimes Fighter 10//wizard 5 /prestige 5 is cool. Sometimes it has to be fighter 5//wizard 5/prestige 5. Other times it can be fighter 5/prestige A 5//wizard 5/prestige B 5. Those are the big variations I have seen.

The bold one is the "official" one supported by the rules:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

The variants you're listing are variants on variants:
(Fighter//Wizard 5) / Prestige 5 is one type of "partial gestalt" where the prestige class takes up both "slots". I've seen this used to get around the restriction of composite classes like theurges, but it's not common. (More common partial gestalts only allow particular classes to be gestalted.)
Fighter // Wizard 5, then Prestige A // Prestige B 5 is what Gwyllgi's GM uses, and I honestly haven't seen it elsewhere.

Fear http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0

Just giving this a +1. Very good resource.

Gestalting Dread Necro with Paladin of Tyranny would be a good place to start, especially if your opening feat is Dreadful Wrath (that feat is crazy good). The paladin side is entirely for Aura of Despair and Charisma synergy in the first few levels; once you can qualify for things like Dread Witch or Nightmare Spinner, replace the paladin side first with them. You can replace Dread Necro with them after about level 8 if you want more prestige class abilities. If you want another possible alternative, Hexblade 4 on one side gives you a Dark Companion (PHB2) which lowers enemy saves even more, and gives you both Mettle (Fort/Will Evasion) and Arcane Resistance (Charisma to saves vs spells).

Hmm. That's a pretty decent idea for a basic build, although it mixes Faerun and Eberron material rather gratuitously and relies on Gwyllgi's "you can gestalt two PrCs at the same time if they don't advance the same core" rule. The order isn't quite exact, but here's a skeleton:

Dread NecromancerHOH 8 // Paladin of TyrannyUA 3 / Cleric 1 [DeathboundSC domain, PlanningPGTF domain] / HexbladeCW 4
Nightmare SpinnerCMAG 5 / Dread WitchHOH 5 (applying everything to Dread Necromancer) // Bone Knight5N 10 (applying everything to Cleric)
Divine OracleCDIV 2 // Shadow AdeptPGTF 1 / MindbenderCARC 1.

[Note: You'll almost certainly want to juggle the levels of Nightmare Spinner, Dread Witch, Divine Oracle, Shadow Adept and Mindbender to get desirable abilities earlier, even as you race for Bone Knight 10. Build the character level-by-level and remember that classes can take up either "side" of the progression as you see fit.]

Feat-wise, go Tomb-Tainted SoulLM , Dreadful WrathPGTF, Shadow Weave MagicPGTF, BattlecasterCARC (Dread Necromancer), Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion)* and the rest is pretty much free. Good options include the Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell route, the Corpsecrafter line (if you want this, consider replacing Tomb-Tainted Soul with the NecropolitanLM template), or perhaps even Leadership / Undead Leadership. If you want, Imperious Command (plus the Never Outnumbered skill trick) gives you another fear option and synergizes with Bone Knight, but may not be ideal since you may not be prioritizing the demoralize route to fear. If you time the Mindbender // Divine Oracle level to coincide with a level you gain a feat, you can pick up MindsightLOM if you want, which will let you sense just about anything that thinks, but this is optional. If you can get the Unnatural Aura trait from Dragon Magazine (discussed in the Fear Handbook), do it; the DC boost to fear effects will apply to just about everything you've got and the drawback is negligable. In any case, the discussion of feats (and really everything else) in the Revised Necromancer Handbook is well worth a read.

*I know there's a way to get this "for free" using a wonderous location, but I forget exactly what it is since I don't usually build divine casters.

This approach will be:

Good with weapons (full martial proficiency, nearly full base attack, bonecraft weaponry) and have very good armor (you'll be able to walk around in a skeletal breastplate and still cast your Dread Necro spells without failure)

Ridiculously good at leading armies of the undead (gaining super corpsecrafting abilities from the Dread Necromancer and Bone Knight put together, plus you should have essentially full or nearly full rebuking (which is treated SEPARATELY from the Bone Knight's abilities!), further boosted by the Deathbound domain), and a decent array of spellcasting (both arcane and divine) to support your undead creations.

Very good with fear effects (including several passive aura-like fear effects and saving throw hosers, plus a positively ungodly Intimidate score)

Surprisingly tough with good saving throws (including Charisma to all saving throws (or DOUBLE Charisma to saves vs spells) and an Evasion effect on all three of them) and a laundry list of immunities (by my count, this includes immunity to fear, poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage (Str/Dex/Con only), ability drain, energy drain, death from massive damage, stunning, nonlethal damage, and critical hits/sneak attacks, and this is without making yourself undead via Necropolitan or something.)

You will cast as an 18th level Dread Necromancer and a 12th level Cleric, with caster level boosts for Necromancy, Enchantment, and Illusion, and some amazing Fear synergy on most of those spells. The only drawback to this approach is it's kind of MAD due to the divine casting, although you'll only need 16 Wisdom to cast the strongest divine spells you'll get.

#11

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 10, 2011 15:50:39

Build the character level-by-level and remember that classes can take up either "side" of the progression as you see fit.

Ick, that misleading idea again about gestalt classes having sides. I understand that it's handy to write it as if it's like that when describing what goes into the gestalt, but it doesn't actually have any mechanical effect.

#12

gwyllgi

Nov 11, 2011 0:58:47

okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30?

#13

Krusk

Nov 11, 2011 10:24:04

The bold one is the "official" one supported by the rules:

My main point was "Check with your DM because this is frequently house ruled or done differently. Double check you are clear on how it works".

#14

Tempest_Stormwind

Nov 12, 2011 14:51:28

okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30?

Gwyllgi, I've responded to each of your 14 posts, and in roughly a third of them, you keep adding new requirements to your request instead of stating them up front. In none of your posts have you worked on your build.

From the CO Board FAQ (At the top of the forum index), you could find this. It was written around eight years ago, but is still relevant today.

2) Help me threads are where you ask for advice or help on your character. You may ask how to make the best archer or ask advice on whether or not to take a certain prestige class. Or basically ask for any kind of help.

Etiquette: First off it can be very rude to simply demand that someone make you a character. Additionally since there are so many ways to make a character it is best if you supply what you were thinking about in the first place and let people give you ideas from there. And finally there is no such thing as a free lunch, so you need to put in some work yourself.

So instead of saying “Min/Max Me a Cleric”. Instead say “Could I have help min/maxing the character I include below. I really want to have the destruction domain, any suggestions for maximizing that aspect?” I think you will find that the more effort you put in yourself, the more help you will get.

You will find this board will be FAR more helpful to you if you put in some work yourself.

I was able to take the build skeleton I wrote on the previous page and make it "standard-gestalt compatible" with minimal effort (I removed all the prestige classes that affect the arcane side - losing the Dread Witch's ability to apply fear in spite of fear immunities hurts a bit, but I figure that of the two approaches, undead mastery would be more powerful, so I sacrificed fear. Likewise, although Dread Necro 9+ is less useful on its own, since I'm relying on Bone Knight on the divine side, I don't have the option of prestiging on the arcane side.). This even has an obvious epic progression that will jump right out at you once you see it (look for your highest-level base class and your only level 10 prestige class). Go ahead and give it a try.

The only thing that varies between the prestige/prestige gestalts and the standard gestalt is the feat selection, given how you don't need Shadow Weave Magic anymore. At level 1 with the Planning domain, cloistered cleric (move it ahead of Paladin of Tyranny), and two flaws, the feats I chose were Dreadful Wrath, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate), Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion. Since you get two sets of Rebuking* and favor Charisma, this can actually let you raise zombies from level 1. The next feats, in order, were Corpsecrafter, [Nimble Bones OR Destructive Retribution OR Undead Leadership, depending on your preferences and playstyle], Battlecaster, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion). I didn't do the epic feats because, honestly, epic play doesn't interest me, and given what I've seen from your posts, there are probably a ton of houserules on how to handle that as well that you haven't told us, so I'll leave the epic feats as an exercise. (I would strongly suggest Epic Spellcasting, though.)

Technically technically gestalt Dread Necro // Cleric would prevent you from getting Rebuke Undead twice, since it's the same class feature at the same level, despite coming from two separate classes. (This is probably waived in general, though, since technically "Spells" are the same class feature, and no one doubts Wizard // Sorcerer works... even though most of us would probably rule that Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter 1 doesn't get 2d6 sneak attack. This is one of the many areas that Gestalt needs specific DM rulings, which is one area that only your DM can provide for you).

If you're looking for a cheesy way to get around this just in case, start as Lawful Neutral and choose to channel positive energy as a cleric. This gives you Turn Undead as a cleric and Rebuke Undead as a dread necromancer. Use your dread powers for as much evil as possible at level 1, becoming Lawful Evil as you enter Paladin of Tyranny. You may lose your Turn Undead / Divine Metamagic powers at this point, but an Atonement spell (which usually comes with a quest, so your DM can help with that) can restore it as Rebuke Undead then. If you don't have access to Atonement (since it's usually DM-controlled), your first level of Bone Knight also restores it as Rebuke Undead; you can take the first level of Bone Knight at character level 5 if you want. (I delayed it to get the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Dark Companion, but nothing stops you from taking Bone Knight early. It's a great class, it really is; the only reason I delayed it was because it's most powerful when you can cast Animate Dead.)

#15

gwyllgi

Nov 16, 2011 23:19:19

okay what if i cant go double prestige and were only planning to go up to LV 30?

Gwyllgi, I've responded to each of your 14 posts, and in roughly a third of them, you keep adding new requirements to your request instead of stating them up front. In none of your posts have you worked on your build.

From the CO Board FAQ (At the top of the forum index), you could find this. It was written around eight years ago, but is still relevant today.
2) Help me threads are where you ask for advice or help on your character. You may ask how to make the best archer or ask advice on whether or not to take a certain prestige class. Or basically ask for any kind of help.

Etiquette: First off it can be very rude to simply demand that someone make you a character. Additionally since there are so many ways to make a character it is best if you supply what you were thinking about in the first place and let people give you ideas from there. And finally there is no such thing as a free lunch, so you need to put in some work yourself.

So instead of saying “Min/Max Me a Cleric”. Instead say “Could I have help min/maxing the character I include below. I really want to have the destruction domain, any suggestions for maximizing that aspect?” I think you will find that the more effort you put in yourself, the more help you will get.

You will find this board will be FAR more helpful to you if you put in some work yourself.

I was able to take the build skeleton I wrote on the previous page and make it "standard-gestalt compatible" with minimal effort (I removed all the prestige classes that affect the arcane side - losing the Dread Witch's ability to apply fear in spite of fear immunities hurts a bit, but I figure that of the two approaches, undead mastery would be more powerful, so I sacrificed fear. Likewise, although Dread Necro 9+ is less useful on its own, since I'm relying on Bone Knight on the divine side, I don't have the option of prestiging on the arcane side.). This even has an obvious epic progression that will jump right out at you once you see it (look for your highest-level base class and your only level 10 prestige class). Go ahead and give it a try.

The only thing that varies between the prestige/prestige gestalts and the standard gestalt is the feat selection, given how you don't need Shadow Weave Magic anymore. At level 1 with the Planning domain, cloistered cleric (move it ahead of Paladin of Tyranny), and two flaws, the feats I chose were Dreadful Wrath, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate), Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion. Since you get two sets of Rebuking* and favor Charisma, this can actually let you raise zombies from level 1. The next feats, in order, were Corpsecrafter, [Nimble Bones OR Destructive Retribution OR Undead Leadership, depending on your preferences and playstyle], Battlecaster, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion). I didn't do the epic feats because, honestly, epic play doesn't interest me, and given what I've seen from your posts, there are probably a ton of houserules on how to handle that as well that you haven't told us, so I'll leave the epic feats as an exercise. (I would strongly suggest Epic Spellcasting, though.)

*
Technically technically gestalt Dread Necro // Cleric would prevent you from getting Rebuke Undead twice, since it's the same class feature at the same level, despite coming from two separate classes. (This is probably waived in general, though, since technically "Spells" are the same class feature, and no one doubts Wizard // Sorcerer works... even though most of us would probably rule that Rogue // Sneak Attack Fighter 1 doesn't get 2d6 sneak attack. This is one of the many areas that Gestalt needs specific DM rulings, which is one area that only your DM can provide for you).

If you're looking for a cheesy way to get around this just in case, start as Lawful Neutral and choose to channel positive energy as a cleric. This gives you Turn Undead as a cleric and Rebuke Undead as a dread necromancer. Use your dread powers for as much evil as possible at level 1, becoming Lawful Evil as you enter Paladin of Tyranny. You may lose your Turn Undead / Divine Metamagic powers at this point, but an Atonement spell (which usually comes with a quest, so your DM can help with that) can restore it as Rebuke Undead then. If you don't have access to Atonement (since it's usually DM-controlled), your first level of Bone Knight also restores it as Rebuke Undead; you can take the first level of Bone Knight at character level 5 if you want. (I delayed it to get the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Dark Companion, but nothing stops you from taking Bone Knight early. It's a great class, it really is; the only reason I delayed it was because it's most powerful when you can cast Animate Dead.)

#16

Tempest_Stormwind

Nov 17, 2011 13:11:32

If you can't mix them, drop Dreadful Wrath in favor of any other feat that looks interesting, or drop it and take one less flaw. Dreadful Wrath is crazy good but expendable given the slightly lessened fear focus (i.e. there's no Imperious Command).

If flaws also aren't allowed, drop the Fell Animate/Divine Meta(Fell Animate) OR the Persistent/Divine Meta(Persistent) approach. Persistent is probably better (as Divine Meta only applies to divine spells, and clerics get great buff effects, including in your case the amazing Consumptive Field, which, if made Persistent, essentially means unlimited temporary hit points and a 50% increase to your caster level), but you get it later. Fell Animate is really only useful to you on the Inflict line of spells (boosted with Charnel Touch) until you get things like Flame Strike and Blade Barrier, but by then you have Animate Dead itself. It'd only be useful if you want to have undead minions available at the very, very low levels, or if you want a stream of cheap disposable undead instead of sturdy, powerful, costly ones.

The choices are yours and up to your DM as well. Please come back with a build.