Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 haneth May 08, 2009 13:39:29	I had gone with a F2/B8 build that used two spears, but then realized that when enemies were within 5', i could not attack. Sooo, I need help. Current build: Str 22 Dex 15 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 6 Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Focus (need a new weapon...was thinking Great Sword, but that would require a Feat like Monkey Grip) Weapon Specialization Power Attack Cleave Great Cleave We only use a few sourcebooks-PH3.5, Complete Warriors, etc. I can also change around any of the stats to whatever I want as we were given a set batch of points to apply at will. Thanks.
#2 carnivore May 08, 2009 14:07:58	this is an ECL 12 character right... or do you plan to Buy-off the LA? you might even try this: MINOTAURS AS CHARACTERS Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits. +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma. Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet. A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5. Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks. Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats. Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons. +5 natural armor bonus. Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8). Special Attacks: [indent] Powerful Charge (Ex): A minotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +9 attack bonus that deals 4d6+6 points of damage.[/indent] Special Qualities : [indent] Natural Cunning (Ex): Although minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells, prevents them from ever becoming lost, and enables them to track enemies. Further, they are never caught flat-footed. Scent (Ex): This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights. The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent.Whenever the creature comes within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source’s location.A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility. [/indent] Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran. Favored Class: Barbarian. Level adjustment +2. :D
#3 haneth May 08, 2009 14:31:31	Thanks. The Half Ogre is already set in stone...Part of the campaign. Pure 3.5E D&D rules.
#4 carnivore May 08, 2009 14:51:10	you wont qualify for Weapon Specialization that way(need Fighter 4th)... try this: use a Spiked Chain with both Hands(2 Handed Style)(since you are large it will give you 15' Reach) and Threaten Adjacent with your current Stats... try this: Half Ogre Fighter 4/ Barbarian 2/ Frenzied Berserker 4 Str 22 Dex 15 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 6 Feats: Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain)(Fighter Bonus) Power Attack(Fighter Bonus) Cleave(Fighter Bonus) 1st lvl: Destructive Rage 3rd lvl: Intimidating Rage 6th lvl: Extend Rage 9th lvl: Instantaneous Rage :D
#5 haneth May 08, 2009 15:06:58	is it worth giving up the damage potential of two weapons (and the str adds) for this build? I love the Spiked Chain concept. Very cool!
#6 Senevri May 08, 2009 15:30:14	You could just equip armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet, and drop one of the spears in close encounters.
#7 rebel7284 May 08, 2009 15:44:51	is it worth giving up the damage potential of two weapons (and the str adds) for this build? I love the Spiked Chain concept. Very cool! Two handed weapons tend to do a lot more damage with a lot less feat investment overall (primarily due to power attack). You'd be giving up damage potential if you do two weapons. You can either focus on charging via leap attack/shock trooper or battlefield control via things like Karmic Strike/Robular's Gambit or possibly a combination of the two.
#8 haneth May 08, 2009 15:46:18	Yeah, thought about that. Kills my Weapon Specialization, but wasn't supposed to have it in the first place.
#9 rebel7284 May 08, 2009 15:48:36	Yeah, thought about that. Kills my Weapon Specialization, but wasn't supposed to have it in the first place. Good, let it die, it's weak. ... I sound so evil.
#10 haneth May 08, 2009 15:53:17	So what two handed weapon would outdamage a specialized Longsword/Scimitar/etc. wielded in each hand?
#11 rebel7284 May 08, 2009 16:12:10	So what two handed weapon would outdamage a specialized Longsword/Scimitar/etc. wielded in each hand? Um, eventually? any? Power attack doesn't apply to light weapons. So right off the bat, you get Str + 1/2 Str (power attack 1:1 ratio) AND -4/-8 to attack. vs. 1.5 Str (power attack 1:2 ratio). If you power attack for 4 to make the attack bonus the same, you add 8 to damage which will probably be greater or equal than the average damage on your light weapon. So it starts out roughly the same, but for every extra point of power attack, the two handed guy gets better. If you add 2 feats to increase the effectiveness of the two weapons, you could have used those same feats for shock trooper or cleave+leap attack which are overall more effective. Basically, the consensus on these boards is that unless you have sneak attack or skirmish or some other ways to get massive bonus damage per hit, two weapon fighting is not worth it.
#12 haneth May 08, 2009 16:23:09	What about using 2 Greatswords and these feats: Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior) Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB) Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer) Weapon Focus (PHB)
#13 phaedrusxy May 08, 2009 16:27:20	Just wipe all the TWF ideas from your mind. Seriously. Then pick up a two-handed weapon, stick some spikes on your armor, take Power Attack, and never look back.
#14 haneth May 08, 2009 16:32:46	Just wipe all the TWF ideas from your mind. Seriously. Then pick up a two-handed weapon, stick some spikes on your armor, take Power Attack, and never look back. Ok, ok! Treat me like the village idiot and throw some weapon/feat selections for my Race/class/stats/level package.
#15 ninjarabbit May 08, 2009 16:34:32	I like barbarian1/cleric9 Domains: travel, luck or strength Feats: power attack, improved bull-rush, shock trooper, quicken spell Notable spells: divine power, righteous might, greater magic weapon and magic vestment to save monies, aid, shield of faith
#16 rebel7284 May 08, 2009 16:58:52	What about using 2 Greatswords and these feats: Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior) Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB) Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer) Weapon Focus (PHB) You can't use great swords in one hand even with monkey grip. You can however use Huge Longswords. so 2x ( 3d6 +1 Weapon focus -2 Monkey Grip (widely considered a sub-par feat) -2 Two Handed +Str ) Power attack effectively 1:2 Vs. Improved Bull Rush [prereq] Leap Attack Shock Trooper 2D8 +1.5Str Power attack also 1:2 Now the second build is charge focused so there WILL be cases where it deals less damage. In the average case however, the bonuses from Shock trooper and leap attack by FAR surpass the extra +.5 str, not to mention that Shock trooper makes you more accurate.
#17 haneth May 08, 2009 17:25:43	Alas, I don't think Shock Trooper is part of the core set of books, so it would not be accessible in my campaign.
#18 phaedrusxy May 08, 2009 17:42:57	Alas, I don't think Shock Trooper is part of the core set of books, so it would not be accessible in my campaign. It is in Complete Warrior, which you listed as available.
#19 haneth May 08, 2009 17:57:58	It is in Complete Warrior, which you listed as available. Ack! You are correct! It hurts being a noob!
#20 ah_andras May 09, 2009 0:01:21	Half Ogre is large right? Can you use Dungeonscape or Races of Stone? Take 6 levels of fighter with Dungeon Crasher at both 2 & 6th. Get Knockback (RoS). smash things into walls for bonus damage (8d6+3x Str)
#21 reis May 09, 2009 8:06:56	monkey grip is a horrible feat, don't mention it again or we will be forced to link admiral ackbar.
#22 Wyvernhand May 09, 2009 13:01:41	As much as I hate to correct the illustrious Carnivore, he did make a bit of an oversight. use a Spiked Chain with both Hands(2 Handed Style)(since you are large it will give you 15' Reach) and Threaten Adjacent Reach Weapons Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. Since a Spiked Chain can explicitly attack close creatures, it would amend the bolded statement to "A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature up to 20 feet away." Thats the ultimate reason for a large creature to wield a spiked chain. Medium sized creatures with a standard reach weapon can take a 5' step back and continue attacking in most cases, a large creature can't. And, since you can't attack 2 handed or Power Attack with Armor Spikes or Spiked Gauntlets, you'd be losing out on a considerable amount of damage without the Spiked Chain. An alternative idea, to take full advantage of your massive str score, would be to take EWP: Bastard Sword and a level of Exotic Weapon Master to snag Uncanny Blow. This would give you 2x str bonus to damage, instead of the usual 1.5x. Even with the base weapon sizing down from 3d6 to 2d6 (for large Great Sword to large Bastard Sword), past Str 20, the benefits will quickly outway the loss of base dice.
#23 jopustopin May 09, 2009 13:14:19	When you say "Complete Warriors" do you mean Just the complete warrior or all of the complete books. The "s" at the end is throwing me off.
#24 carnivore May 09, 2009 13:49:36	Since a Spiked Chain can explicitly attack close creatures, it would amend the bolded statement to "A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature up to 20 feet away." Thats the ultimate reason for a large creature to wield a spiked chain. Medium sized creatures with a standard reach weapon can take a 5' step back and continue attacking in most cases, a large creature can't. And, since you can't attack 2 handed or Power Attack with Armor Spikes or Spiked Gauntlets, you'd be losing out on a considerable amount of damage without the Spiked Chain. An alternative idea, to take full advantage of your massive str score, would be to take EWP: Bastard Sword and a level of Exotic Weapon Master to snag Uncanny Blow. This would give you 2x str bonus to damage, instead of the usual 1.5x. Even with the base weapon sizing down from 3d6 to 2d6 (for large Great Sword to large Bastard Sword), past Str 20, the benefits will quickly outway the loss of base dice. you are correct... 20' reach + Adjacent is awesome... but the spiked chain also allows you to make Trip Attacks and Disarm Attacks.... when you make a Trip Attack.... it is a Melee Touch Attack... thus increaseing the chances that you are succesful to focus more on Trip Attacks with your Stats... try this: Half Ogre Monk(PASSIVE WAY variant) 2/ Fighter 2/ Barbarian 3/ Frenzied Berserker 3 Str 22 Dex 15 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 6 Feats: Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain)(Fighter Bonus) Power Attack(Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise(monk Bonus) Improved Trip(monk Bonus) 1st lvl: Cleave 3rd lvl: Destructive Rage 6th lvl: Intimidating Rage 9th lvl: Extend Rage this way you get to use feats that require a higher Int without having a very high Int.... and you get to have an Additional Attack @+4 vs everything you Trip :D