Race: Half-Orc
Domains: Destruction, War (Longsword)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 8
This self-buffed bruiser is in a high-powered campaign, starting at level 1 and hopefully continuing through 20. I have access to the complete series, and the races of, plus core books. I realize the stats aren't awesome, and I'd be much stronger as a human with the planning domain, but what can you do, right?
Thoughts on the build? I think dropping practiced spellcaster wouldn't be too bad, but not sure what to replace it with. Is a Monk's Belt a good choice for this guy? Any other must have items (other than Nightstick(s))?
As a side-discussion, how do you think he matches up to a straight Cleric 20, melee oriented?
Thanks in advance!!
1 Cleric 1 - Combat Casting (Level)
2 Cleric 2
3 Cleric 3 - Diverse Background (Level, from RoD)
4 Cleric 4
5 Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Class), Stunning Fist (Class)
6 Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes (Class), Practiced Spellcaster (Level, from CDiv)
7 Sacred Fist 1
8 Sacred Fist 2
9 Sacred Fist 3 - Extend Spell (Level)
10 Sacred Fist 4
11 Sacred Fist 5
12 Sacred Fist 6 - Persistent Spell (Level, from CArc)
13 Sacred Fist 7
14 Sacred Fist 8
15 Sacred Fist 9 - Divine Metamagic (Level, from CDiv)
16 Sacred Fist 10
17 Cleric 5
18 Cleric 6 - Extra Turning (Level)
19 Cleric 7
20 Cleric 8
Do you have Complete Champion (the book)?
Sorry about that, entirely my fault. Unfortunately I don't have access to the "new" three Completes.
Anyhow, is cleric set in stone? have you tought about druid-monk combo?
As a personal preference consider moving the Monk/SF progression until after Cleric 7 so that you have 4th level spells (Divine Power).
Take Contemplative 1 after Sacred Fist and try to take a Domain that gives you Time Stop. Ignore Persistent spell with only 8 Cha unless you can take multiple Nightsticks. Extended Timestop via Rod gives a lot of buff rounds. Use Quicken Spell with DMM before that.
I'm assuming you are using 10/10 SF caster progression. If you are, and going a persistent spell route, take HIerophant 1 at Lvl 20 for Divine Reach and persist Owl's Insight for a load of bonus spell slots and a big bonus to AC. Keep Practiced Caster in that case.
I'm not really sure how well the Contemplative class fits with the character from a roleplay perspective - I had always pictured them as a sort of celebrity worshipper. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but they always seemed to have a hidden ability at level 1: Carry around giant sign with deity's name on it (ex) and do nothing else. I'll definitely consider it though!
The Heirophant idea was good too, it almost seems like the divine version of "taking a level of fighter" for a bonus feat. Of course, the Heirophant ability is much much better than Reach Spell. However, spontaneous inflicts as a touch spell is one of the reasons why I'm thinking about a monk in the first place (always has hands free to cast, and can deliver a touch attack with an unarmed), but if they are a ranged spell, seems like I don't really need the monk/sacred fist levels after all.
Perhaps a Cleric 19/Heirophant 1 would be a better choice. This would be way easier with a good-aligned human... blah.
Would you mind explaining the logic behind ignoring persistent spell with charisma 8?
Cleric is set in stone, yes. Monk isn't though. And again my apologies, I do want a melee oriented character. I had self-buffed melee bruiser and changed it... should have kept that in there.
I hate to break this to you but you might want to read the Sacred Fist's Code of Conduct. You took the War Domain and you can neither use nor Carry a weapon unless you want to lose your Sacred Fist abilities. You also need to ask your DM if he is using multiclassing Penalties as you would be effected by them as soon as you took a level in monk or any other base class except Cleric or barbarian. I also suggest only taking one level in monk as to still get 9th level spells.
I suggest you trade the War Domain for the Travel Domain because you already have enough deadly spells and you can't benefit from the use of a Long Sword. Instead you would have Freedom of movement when you need it and Teleport which is hard for a Cleric to duplicate to my Knowledge. Just add the Flavor of a wondering Monk to your Character's Back story.
I have one Question for you. Do you have access to Tome of Battle? Or Players Handbook 2? Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHB2) are both great feats for improving a Monks abilities and Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) (MM1, 3-5) can also be used with approval of a DM for a Monk to be treated as one size Larger in the case of Unarmed Strikes.
Edit: I am use to dealing with the Tables trumping Text do to stupid DMs.
Indeed, I am using the 10/10 Sacred Fist, as I've read on this very board that "text trumps tables". I was actually quite happy to find that tidbit while searching for sacred fist builds.
Trying to figure out how you plan to do this. As I don't know of anyway a Straight Cleric can get Stunning Fist before 11th level. That BAB +8 requirement for Stunning fist hasn't been changed to my knowledge. So either you must take 2 levels in fighter or some other 1:1 BAB progressing class or take one level in monk.
Also DMM:Quicken might be more useful for you then DMM: Persist, as Quicken would allow you to buff on the fly and you wouldn't be wiped out after a single Dispel or Nul Magic effect. You would get one extra feat and more flexiblity. Besides with my other advice DMM:Quicken Greater Teleport used for Retreating means you can Retreat to the other side of the realm as a free action.
Trying to figure out how you plan to do this. As I don't know of anyway a Straight Cleric can get Stunning Fist before 11th level. That BAB +8 requirement for Stunning fist hasn't been changed to my knowledge. So either you must take 2 levels in fighter or some other 1:1 BAB progressing class or take one level in monk.
He is referring to 10/10 casting level progression.
He is referring to 10/10 casting level progression.
Sorry, I misread that. Though that allowed me to address the reason he kind needs a level in monk in the first place. Otherwise he wouldn't succeed in getting the whole PrC before Epic.
The other issue you have is that your AC isn't going to be terribly good if you go with no armor. While you'll have a strong Wisdom bonus to your AC, your Dex bonus doesn't improve on that much at all, which is going to leave you with magic bonuses. And the primary cleric AC boosting spell is magic vestment.
Sacred fist lets you keep your WIS bonus in light armor right?
Sadly, no. He only gets the class granted AC bonus in light armor and that tops out at +3.
I assume Diverse Background grants you an extra favored class? Because with a half-orc, you have an experience penalty as a cleric/monk unless they're within 1 level of each other.
The other issue you have is that your AC isn't going to be terribly good if you go with no armor. While you'll have a strong Wisdom bonus to your AC, your Dex bonus doesn't improve on that much at all, which is going to leave you with magic bonuses. And the primary cleric AC boosting spell is magic vestment.
BRACERS +8. Or Magic Vestment on a SHIRT. Should work, right?
His wisdom with a good build will be HIGH. Like 18+5+5+6+10 = 44 without ANY items that increase caster level. That's a whopping +17 bonus. With prayer beads, a Ion-stone, Magic Tattoo, Divine Potency (?), which add a possible +10 CL that would be 49 Wis. With (Gr) Consumptive Field that is another tentative +10 CL for 54 Wis after Owl's Insight. A +22 Bonus to AC + his flat monk bonus of a potential Lvl 22 monk + bracers +dex + natural.
That right now makes 10+22(wis)+8(bracers)+4(monk)+dex+natural.
All of that with TWO persistent spells. (Owl's Insight and (Gr.) Consumptive Field)
Indeed, I am using the 10/10 Sacred Fist, as I've read on this very board that "text trumps tables". I was actually quite happy to find that tidbit while searching for sacred fist builds.
I'm not really sure how well the Contemplative class fits with the character from a roleplay perspective - I had always pictured them as a sort of celebrity worshipper. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but they always seemed to have a hidden ability at level 1: Carry around giant sign with deity's name on it (ex) and do nothing else. I'll definitely consider it though!
The Heirophant idea was good too, it almost seems like the divine version of "taking a level of fighter" for a bonus feat. Of course, the Heirophant ability is much much better than Reach Spell. However, spontaneous inflicts as a touch spell is one of the reasons why I'm thinking about a monk in the first place (always has hands free to cast, and can deliver a touch attack with an unarmed), but if they are a ranged spell, seems like I don't really need the monk/sacred fist levels after all.
Perhaps a Cleric 19/Heirophant 1 would be a better choice. This would be way easier with a good-aligned human... blah.
Would you mind explaining the logic behind ignoring persistent spell with charisma 8?
IF it's a high-power group and you can stack Nightsticks then by all means go persistent spell. You WILL trump almost every other melee character at high levels. Basically at high levels a SF build is not significantly better than a regular cleric except but for a few things: A super-buffed unarmed strike from Monk2/SF10/+10levels from Belt/Tattoo + Giant Size + Wallop does more damage than any melee weapon. (Melee weapons cap out at between 6d6 and 8d8, while unarmed damage will be 24d6+. HOWEVER, Str damage from being EVIL (GCF) and Colossal Size and Power attack from a two handed weapon will definitely be higher than any dice-based damage. The Cleric might be just a bit weaker at pure melee damage for a long time, but finally BLOOM at Level 18 when Hierophant kicks in. A monk's belt will take care of your armour class needs from then on. Now basically being evil, which enables you to spam consumptive fields, does away with any disadvantage the cleric may ever have.
Sacred Fist basically allows you to do good damage from many attacks throughout most of your career, and AFAIk the only thing the SF loses are the two monk levels (which gain you some USEFUL feats) and a bit of one save. (Not sure about that, though.) Basically SF is a flavour build. If you have to take XP penalty definitely go single-class.
The cleric 18/Hierophant1/Contemplative1 build is by no means weak throughout, but you have to wear armour for a long while, use a good weapon, and BUFF.
Without Nighsticks (or just one), low Cha, and just one Extra Turning a Quicken Spell route might be better. 3-1+4+4 = 10 TA for TWO quickened Spells until you get a significan Cha-item, but only one persistent spell. Even with a +6 Cha item you will only end up with 13 TA, which is still not enough for two persists, but still enough for two quickens and three Domain Spontaneity uses. That could mean two or three more rod-extended time-stops at high levels. With extended time-stops you get an average of 7 rounds time for buffing, which is usually enough.
It hurts not getting Owl's Insight persisted at high levels, but remember retraining... It'll take you three levels to retrain from DMM(Quicken) to DMM(Persist). If you can somehow take the Planning domain with Contemplative that's just two levels.
And on the Contemplative: The flavour is mutable. There is one harsh condition to be met: Meeting a great icon of your faith. So if you for instance run across Pazuzu or Asmodeus at some point, hey, go Contemplative and spread the word. The loss? One point of save and one point of BAB.
I mean, considering the entire point of the SF is that they can't use weapons, but their fists, it seems very strange.
BRACERS +8. Or Magic Vestment on a SHIRT. Should work, right?
His wisdom with a good build will be HIGH. Like 18+5+5+6+10 = 44 without ANY items that increase caster level. That's a whopping +17 bonus. With prayer beads, a Ion-stone, Magic Tattoo, Divine Potency (?), which add a possible +10 CL that would be 49 Wis. With (Gr) Consumptive Field that is another tentative +10 CL for 54 Wis after Owl's Insight. A +22 Bonus to AC + his flat monk bonus of a potential Lvl 22 monk + bracers +dex + natural.
That right now makes 10+22(wis)+8(bracers)+4(monk)+dex+natural.
All of that with TWO persistent spells. (Owl's Insight and (Gr.) Consumptive Field).
I'm personally not a fan of persistant spells that are higher level than you could normally cast, so I don't typically take those into account.
However, yes, at 20th level he'll have a decent AC-- he has to get there first though, and the game is starting at 1st level. I can attest that in early levels, AC is an issue without armor-- I'm playing a wizard in one of my current games with a 20 Dex and even with mage armor my armor is horrible. It's going to be awhile before his AC without armor is going to compare to full plate for the character. (Which isn't to say that you can't wear full plate for awhile and then switch...)
I'm personally not a fan of persistant spells that are higher level than you could normally cast, so I don't typically take those into account.
However, yes, at 20th level he'll have a decent AC-- he has to get there first though, and the game is starting at 1st level. I can attest that in early levels, AC is an issue without armor-- I'm playing a wizard in one of my current games with a 20 Dex and even with mage armor my armor is horrible. It's going to be awhile before his AC without armor is going to compare to full plate for the character. (Which isn't to say that you can't wear full plate for awhile and then switch...)
True, bracers are more expensive. Let's take a look at Lvl 1:
Fighter1, Fullplate:
AC 10+8 + (max 1 dex)
Cleric NOT yet ready to enter into SF: Fullplate
.AC 10+8+ (max 1 dex)
Monk going main Wis route:
AC 10+4wis+(hopefully 2 to 3 dex), or Wis and Dex interchanged, which still means max around 17. Yup, that sucks. Which is the reason why monks tend to suck at low levels. And they still tend to suck later, unless they are used as two-level dips and then switch to SF.
At the Lvl when the Cleric takes the Monk levels (I like that to be Lvl 8, since that means I already have fourth level spells) with an arbitrary amount of two +1AC items that have different bonuses:
AC 10+5 to 6 wis+2 for MV+around 1 or 2 dex+2 items = 20 to 22
Fighter with +1FP, +1 item : 20 to 21.
There is no real disadvantage, here, except that the cleric can only have that AC seven hours a day. Now here is why I like to take the monk levels late. The later I take them, the longer my hourly buffs will last, which will offset loss of spellcasting for two levels. (And I ideally need three level 4 spells each day, one of them persisted.)
However, yes, at 20th level he'll have a decent AC-- he has to get there first though, and the game is starting at 1st level. I can attest that in early levels, AC is an issue without armor-- I'm playing a wizard in one of my current games with a 20 Dex and even with mage armor my armor is horrible. It's going to be awhile before his AC without armor is going to compare to full plate for the character. (Which isn't to say that you can't wear full plate for awhile and then switch...)
Remember, a monk/cleric doesn't have to not wear armor. You keep your evasion even in a +2 mithral breastplate with a +2 heavy shield, but your AC is much higher.
Wizards can and should have higher ACs than fighters of equivalent levels, too. Between mage armor and shield (or a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt + a +1 mithral buckler) and alter self, you can sit real pretty around 6th level or so.
Remember, a monk/cleric doesn't have to not wear armor. You keep your evasion even in a +2 mithral breastplate with a +2 heavy shield, but your AC is much higher.
Wizards can and should have higher ACs than fighters of equivalent levels, too. Between mage armor and shield (or a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt + a +1 mithral buckler) and alter self, you can sit real pretty around 6th level or so.
My AC isn't bad with shield and gets up to decent with alter self, however, that tends to be for extreme fights, since I spend a few slots on keeping up mage armor up all day and have a few other 1st level and 2nd level spells I like. As for the mithral buckler and mithril shirt... well, let's just say I just now got up to a 6 Str by purchasing a +2 Str item. And I actually put a point into the stat just to try and avoid a one shot by a stray shadow. :P (Which seem to be particularly common.
)I'm actually trying to decide on whether I should bother with greater mage armor at this point, since I'm planning on picking up a rod of metamagic extend. But that is neither here nor there for this discussion.
As for the domains, I'm a cleric of Ilneval (one of the Orc pantheon). His favored weapon is the longsword. I don't get to min/max it to be unarmed strike. I also don't get the planning domain, etc. etc. I have to work within the parameters of my character.
For the question of how I would qualify for sacred fist without monk - if I did go full cleric, I wouldn't take sacred fist at all. I'd just be a cleric with a longsword. It might be better in the long run, if I did.
I would be interested to know where this (Greater) Consumptive Field spell is!
-Sorry for the long delay in replies, internet was down. >; - (
2 days without internet did give me some time to think though - Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon give my Unarmed Strike 3d8 damage at level 19 which really blows my mind.
Currently asking my DM if he would allow a feat that would substitute my strength mod for cha mod for turning - if so I'll take Persistent. Otherwise it's Quicken!
Again, thanks so much for all the info guys. Really appreciate it.
Thanks for all the great info guys. The heads up about Persistent spell with low CHA was especially important.
As for the domains, I'm a cleric of Ilneval (one of the Orc pantheon). His favored weapon is the longsword. I don't get to min/max it to be unarmed strike. I also don't get the planning domain, etc. etc. I have to work within the parameters of my character.
In that case, dump the war domain (unless you really do want to be a longsworder -- is that a word?) and pick up war devotion instead, from the complete champion.
I would be interested to know where this (Greater) Consumptive Field spell is!
Libris Mortis, I think, but I think it got reprinted in the SC. A lot of people ban or nerf it though -- being able to kill a bucket full of chickens in order to get some insane bonuses to strength and caster level usually sets off red flags with most DMs.
2 days without internet did give me some time to think though - Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon give my Unarmed Strike 3d8 damage at level 19 which really blows my mind.
Remember, INW only works if you have a level on monk. But yeah, it's a decent feat for monks.
Again, thanks so much for all the info guys. Really appreciate it.
NP, I like sacred fists. =)
1 Cleric 1 - Combat Casting (Level), Weapon Focus [Longsword] (War Domain)
2 Cleric 2
3 Cleric 3 - Diverse Background (Level, RoD)
4 Cleric 4
5 Cleric 5
6 Cleric 6 - Quicken Spell
7 Cleric 7
8 Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Class), Stunning Fist (Class)
9 Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes (Class), Superior Unarmed Strike (Level, ToB)
10 Sacred Fist 1
11 Sacred Fist 2
12 Sacred Fist 3 - Improved Natural Weapon (Level, MMI)
13 Sacred Fist 4
14 Sacred Fist 5
15 Sacred Fist 6 - Divine Metamagic [Quicken Spell] (Level, CDiv)
16 Sacred Fist 7
17 Sacred Fist 8
18 Sacred Fist 9 - Extra Turning (Level)
19 Sacred Fist 10
20 Cleric 8
Use a Longsword, Chain Shirt and a Buckler to start. Once I hit Monk 1, my Wis bonus to AC = chain shirt and buckler, so I plan to drop the armor and shield at that point (focusing gold on +stats, etc). I keep using the Longsword through Monk levels due to the +1 bonus from Weapon Focus.
Once I take my first level in Sacred Fist, I of course drop the sword, but due to Superior Unarmed Strike, I still do 1d8 base damage.
That increases to 1d10 at Fist 2, then with Imp Natural Weapon I do 2d8 just a level later (woo). Ending up at 3d8 base unarmed strike damage at char level 19 (before nice things like Righteous Might) is awesome.
I realize there are more optimal builds, including but not limited to; human race, higher charisma, weapon focus (unarmed strike), swapping destruction for another domain (possibly planning for free extend), full cleric 20, etc. Or just a Cheater of Mystra.
Again, thanks so much guys, really appreciate it. He's pretty strong without being Pun Pun, despite being a half-orc cleric with low cha and poor domain/deity choices.
-Mike
Contemplative definitely.
Does my BAB matter, with Divine Power?
One of the benefits of Sacred Fist is that it is a full base attack class-- with proper planning (i.e. your current build), you don't need to depend on Divine Power for your base attack. You have a +17 as is, I would leave it like that and particularly at higher levels when you can have a +6 Str item just use your regular attack bonus.
So here's what I have right now:
1 Cleric 1 - Combat Casting (Level), Weapon Focus [Longsword] (War Domain)
2 Cleric 2
3 Cleric 3 - Diverse Background (Level, RoD)
4 Cleric 4
5 Cleric 5
6 Cleric 6 - Quicken Spell
7 Cleric 7
8 Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Class), Stunning Fist (Class)
9 Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes (Class), Superior Unarmed Strike (Level, ToB)
10 Sacred Fist 1
11 Sacred Fist 2
12 Sacred Fist 3 - Improved Natural Weapon (Level, MMI)
13 Sacred Fist 4
14 Sacred Fist 5
15 Sacred Fist 6 - Divine Metamagic [Quicken Spell] (Level, CDiv)
16 Sacred Fist 7
17 Sacred Fist 8
18 Sacred Fist 9 - Extra Turning (Level)
19 Sacred Fist 10
20 Cleric 8
I would switch DMM and INA. But maybe that's just me because I don't like to waste time buffing.
Once I take my first level in Sacred Fist, I of course drop the sword, but due to Superior Unarmed Strike, I still do 1d8 base damage.
That increases to 1d10 at Fist 2, then with Imp Natural Weapon I do 2d8 just a level later (woo). Ending up at 3d8 base unarmed strike damage at char level 19 (before nice things like Righteous Might) is awesome.
Umm.... unless you want to be absolutely item independent, you can retrain SUS once you can afford both Monk's belt and a Monk's Tattoo. That way you will still get an unarmed damage of 2d10 modified by INA, which means 4d8 at Level 17 - before Righteous Might and Wallop (and of course before Giant Size at Lvl 19). Once all buffs are on you will be doing 24d8+. Perhaps it's even worth considering moving INA to Lvl 9, and then deciding at level 12 whether you want SUS or DMM, since you may or may not own the Monk's items, yet. You might then even take Martial Study for a nice maneuver at 15.
Your damage progression would then be as follows:
Lvl 8: 1d6 or Sword
Lvl 9: 1d8 or Sword with INA
Lvl 10: 1d8 or Sword, 2d8 with Monk's belt. (eff. Monk lvl 8)
Lvl 11 or 12: 1d10 base, 2d8 with Monk's Belt, 3d6 with Belt+Tattoo (monk 15)
Lvl 13: 3d8 with everything
Final 4d8 at lvl 17 with Belt + Tattoo. This cannot be improved upon with SUS, since Monk damage does not improve above 20.
Your original Progression:
Lvl 9: 1d8
Lvl 10: 1d10, 2d6 with Belt
Lvl 12: 2d8, 3d8 with belt+tattoo.
Final 4d8 at lvl 13 with everything.
SUS retrainable at Lvl 17 as previously.
Your progression caps out faster and gives the desirable fourth d8 much earlier. This has the added advantage of giving more benefit with Enlarge Person or Righteous Might, since a base 3d8 only adds 1d8 when enlarged to 4d8, while a base 4d8 adds 2 to reach 6d8 when large. However, having one more feat open earlier might be beneficial, too. Well, it's your decision.
Again, thanks so much guys, really appreciate it. He's pretty strong without being Pun Pun, despite being a half-orc cleric with low cha and poor domain/deity choices.
-Mike
He definitely won't be weak. Some things do hurt, though.
Where can I check and see what a monk's tattoo can do?
Magic of Faerun. It was not updated, so it should be ok.
I just noticed that's of course not on your list of books, which makes SUS mandatory, I guess.