Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 captaincurran May 22, 2009 15:38:28	Heya guys, my DM has made an offhand comment about how i'm the party's "Character-master", and said i could probably make a lvl1 halfling with a +20 bonus to grappling. I'm currently away from my precious books, so i'm just looking at sources online, and i'm noticing that this may be quite difficult. Right now i'm thinking of a standard halfling, as the variant races of halfling are small, and have a negative to strength. given a rolled stats (max of 18) the best strength bonus i could get is 16, so +3, I'm thinking of a Gestalt Class, Fighter/Monk. Monk for the Improved unarmed strike, and Improved grapple which nets me an overall of +4 to grapple. +1 Bab, +4 Improved Grapple, +3 Strength, - 4 Size. I'm not sure what the pricing of a magic item of bonuses to grapple would be as it's not an actual skill so wouldn't fit under the Skill bonus (competence) heading.... I'm gonna take 2 flaws for bonus feats if i can find more bonuses than the Improved Grapple can give, There's a trait called Brawler which will give me +1, and the trait Muscle Bound will give me +1 on Strength related checks, so overall with 2 traits, Improved grapple, 16 in strength, full bab, and my size, i have +6 to grapple. :/ still 14 points away. I'm thinking the point buy system would be more efficent to use however, i'm not sure the cost for a 19 or 20 ability. 9 =>1 10 =>2 11 =>3 12 =>4 13 =>5 14 =>6 15 =>8 16 =>10 17 =>13 18 =>16 So, three points of help would be appreciated, Cost of 19+ for an ability in a point buy system, and ways to increase my grapple overall, and the cost calculations for an item of +X to Grapple affordable to a lvl 1 character, so about 150g or so
#2 phaedrusxy May 22, 2009 15:43:33	Official item that gives +8 to grapple This is something that's been hashed out in a few threads. I think gnomes actually have more advantages than halflings, but a halfling with 3 levels in Stoneblessed (gnome) might be the best, as halflings do have a few things of their own. There is a halfling racial monk substitution level that gives them an ability called Size Matters Not, but I don't remember it being that great. A halfling psychic warrior 1 could also just take Grip of Iron as a power known. If you have enough power points to use them both, Grip of Iron + Expansion nets you a total of +13 to your grapple checks. Add +4 from Improved Grapple, and +3 from starting with a 16 Strength (the most possible as a halfling), and you have your +20 at 1st level. :D (Edit: Oops. Both those powers only last for 1 round at 1st level. You'd need to add Overchannel, and then you're tight for feats unless you take flaws. A strongheart halfling could do it without them, though.)
#3 jopustopin May 22, 2009 15:51:06	You're probably better off going halfling conjurer/Barbarian. Take improved unarmed strike, than replace scribe scroll with a fighter bonus feat; like improved grapple. (Fighter wizard variant UA) Conjurer nets you abrupt jaunt (which is fun) and the spell enlarge person. Strength: 16 +2 size change +4 Rage Those two traits you mentioned +1 bab; +6 strength; +4 improved grapple; +2 traits I get +13 to grapple without items. Brawlers Gauntlets (1000 gp) Gives you +2 to grapple and damage
#4 tos_shai_hulud May 22, 2009 16:32:33	You cannot buy a 19+ in point buy. There are no values. If you wanted, you could make house rules, but in Char Op, there is no 19 from a point buy. If you are playing forgotten realms, then I'd recommend this build: Strongheart Halfling Barbarian / Sorcerer 1 Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus: Grapple, Reckless Rage Flaw: Vulnerable, Shaky Traits: Brawler, Muscle-Bounded 1st Level Spells: Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone Items: Psionic Tattoo (Grip of Iron) 50gp Dragonchain 50gp Familiar: Octopus (Stormwrack) 25 Point buy (standard): Str 18 (16 points) Dex 8 Con 13 (5 points) Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 12 (4 points) Totals: Bab +1, Improved Grapple +4, Str (base 16, Enlarge Person +2 size, Fist of Stone +6 enhancement, Reckless Rage +6) +10, Weapon Focus: Grapple +1, Brawler +1, Muscle-Bound +1, Dragonchain +2, Octopus Familiar +3 = +23 That goes +3 above what you were looking for. The dragonchain is an exotic weapon from a published adventure called the Red Hand of Doom. It can be used to make grapple checks at a +2. You'll take a -5 penalty on the attack roll with it (-4 nonproficiency, -1 from Brawler), but you get a +2 on the grapple check. If you don't like that item, you can drop it and still have a +21 at 1st level with a halfling.
#5 jgumbyrx May 22, 2009 16:44:43	need to re-read "brawler" -- you lose the benefits of this trait as soon as you take IUS (from feat or monk bonus). brawler + IUS = waste of a trait
#6 tos_shai_hulud May 22, 2009 17:02:54	Good point. Ok, here is the next build attempt: Strongheart Halfling Barbarian / Wizard 1 (Fighter Variant) 25 Point buy (standard): Str 16 (10 points) Dex 8 Con 13 (5 points) Int 15 (8 points) Wis 10 (2 points) Cha 8 Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus: Grapple, Reckless Rage, Precocious Apprentice (Fearsome Grapple) Flaws: Vulnerable, Shaky Traits: Musclebound Familiar: Octopus (Stormwrack) Item: Psionic Tattoo (Grip of Iron, ML 3) 150 gp Totals: +1 BAB, +4 Improved Grapple, +9 Str (14 base, +2 size, +6 Fist of Iron, +6 Reckless Rage), +6 enhancement (Grip of Iron), +4 circumstance (Fearsome Grapple), +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Musclebound, +3 octopus familiar = +29 Unfortunately, this build has no room for the dragonchain, as that would go over the 150gp starting wealth.
#7 phaedrusxy May 22, 2009 17:06:04	I'd just leave off the tattoo, as it dissappears after being used, like a potion. That's still pretty nasty. :D
#8 sofawall May 22, 2009 19:00:04	Mercantile Background gives extra starting gold.
#9 jopustopin May 22, 2009 19:31:19	I don't understand weapon focus grapple. You get +1 on attack rolls, but the only time you make an attack roll is when you make a touch attack. Am I missing something?
#10 jgumbyrx May 22, 2009 19:56:04	oops. nevermind.
#11 phaedrusxy May 22, 2009 20:10:35	yeah, no. i don't think that you can take WF-grapple. grapple is not a weapon -- it is a special action. You definitely can take it. It is an example given in the feat itself. Weapon Focus [General] Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat. Prerequisites Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1. Benefit You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. Special You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon. A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon. I think it was meant to add to grapple checks, as WF: Unarmed Strike would apply to the touch attack to initiate a grapple.
#12 risner May 23, 2009 6:36:26	I think it was meant to add to grapple checks, as WF: Unarmed Strike would apply to the touch attack to initiate a grapple. It applies to the grapple check, not the touch attack as PhaedrusXY says. "You are especially good at using the weapon", which in the grapple case is making a grapple check.
#13 tos_shai_hulud May 25, 2009 14:36:43	Hmm, if someone could figure out a way to get one more feat, Aberrant Blood (Flexible Limbs) would give an additional +3 to grapple. That's actually better than the Reckless Rage feat (which only increases grapple by 1 when in rage).
#14 BloodDragon May 25, 2009 15:06:26	Why fighter? One level of monk already grants you both Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple. Barbarian as previously mentioned grants good BAB and Rage. Heck even wizard is better then fighter (suprise) one level of Wizard that takes Precocious Apprentice (Heroics/Alterself), Enlarge Person, Grip of Stone and toss in a Octopus Familiar for free. Even motivate your grapplein a pinch. Edit: Ah-ha. Logicninja made a grappling wizard here. I do not know if it's been taken down or not as the site does not seem to be working at the moment.
#15 muertog May 25, 2009 15:25:56	Someone mentioned a feat or template from Dragon magazine that basically grants the Powerful Build ability. Count yourself as one size larger than you currently are for grapple checks. Found it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18367696&postcount=13161 "Stoneboned, DR350, p. 36"
#16 SwordDisciple May 25, 2009 22:49:48	Why fighter? One level of monk already grants you both Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple. Barbarian as previously mentioned grants good BAB and Rage. Because making a good non magical Grappler requires feats.. lots of them generally. Someone mentioned a feat or template from Dragon magazine that basically grants the Powerful Build ability. Count yourself as one size larger than you currently are for grapple checks. Found it: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18367696&postcount=13161 "Stoneboned, DR350, p. 36" Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun essentially does the same..
#17 tos_shai_hulud May 26, 2009 7:19:28	Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun essentially does the same.. I believe (correct me if I am mistaken) that a halfling would not be eligible for that feat. I think it is a regional feat for humans only. Am I mistaken on how the regional feats work?
#18 risner May 26, 2009 7:38:04	I believe (correct me if I am mistaken) that a halfling would not be eligible for that feat. I think it is a regional feat for humans only. Am I mistaken on how the regional feats work? Pretty sure you are correct.
#19 tordak May 26, 2009 7:50:47	Although the table stops at 18 for point-generated abilities, which is the maximum you could get with the random method, it's not too hard to see the patern; you need to spend a number of points = to current bonus of the ability to be increased. So buying a starting score of 19 would require 20 points (a score of 18 = ability bonus of +4), and 24 points for a 20. However this would also require your GM to allow for starting scores over 18 (before racial adjustments).
#20 Senevri May 26, 2009 17:04:41	Incarnum: Shape Soulmeld (Girallon arms). +2 competence bonus on Climb checks and grapple checks. Essentia: Every point of essentia invested in your girallon arms increases the bonus on Climb checks and grapple checks by 2. Shape Soulmeld + Bonus Essentia for a +6 competence on grapple. You can go up to +10 by 20th. You can further enhance this via class dips or with Expanded Soulmeld capacity, +12 without levels in any Incarnum classes.
#21 tos_shai_hulud Jun 05, 2009 19:22:52	Incarnum: Shape Soulmeld (Girallon arms). Shape Soulmeld + Bonus Essentia for a +6 competence on grapple. You can go up to +10 by 20th. You can further enhance this via class dips or with Expanded Soulmeld capacity, +12 without levels in any Incarnum classes. So, what would the total grapple bonus be for a first level halfling? Can you use essentia to beat a +29 at 1st level?