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#1 amatulic Mar 08, 2007 20:57:37	The Beguiler (PH2) is an interesting fusion of rogue and sorcerer. The class is already fairly well optimized, with a good set of skills, good skill point accumulation, a good set of ability progressions, and you can spontaneously cast any of the spells from a predetermined but respectable spell list. Spells concentrate around enchantment and illusion. Because both your skill points and your spells per day are based on Intelligence, you have only one ability to worry about maximizing to the fullest. The end of this article defines the source book abbreviations used. [smallcaps]Abilities[/smallcaps] In order of priority, a beguiler's abilities should be assigned from highest to lowest as follows: Intelligence (for spells and skill points) Constitution (hit points, Fortitude saves, and Concentration) Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma. Arrange according to your strategy. You may want higher Dex for the rogue-like skill points, but if you want a strong spellcaster you shouldn't sacrifice Concentration bonus by making Dex higher than Con. Wisdom can be low priority if you don't plan to take feats or prestige classes that require it; you already have a good Will save progression. The beguiler's flavor suggests that you should invest more into Charisma for social skills. If your beguiler will focus on social situations, that's fine. However, at 6th level you will get the glibness spell which makes your Charisma almost irrelevant in Bluff checks. Skill synergies can add +6 to Diplomacy checks, and if you are good-aligned, the Nymph's Kiss feat will add +2 to all your other Charisma-based skills. Therefore, it should be OK to give Charisma a low priority unless you really need to maximize Bluff and Diplomacy. Strength (your dump stat) [smallcaps]Races[/smallcaps] Small races best fit the beguiler class. Heward's Handy Haversack can carry all your gear and loot, and you don't need a melee base attack because a beguiler doesn't get the rogue's sneak attack damage. So strength is your dump stat. If you do multiclass with rogue for sneak attack damage, consider archery rather than melee fighting because you'll have a higher Dex bonus. Small size gives you a +1 bonus to attacks, +1 to AC, and +4 to Hide checks. A good Hide bonus may also help with the beguiler's Cloaked Casting ability. While Int is the most important ability for a beguiler, small races with Int enhancements aren't available without level adjustments or extra HD, meaning they can't be played from first level. The next best races are those having Dex or Cha bonuses. A Whisper Gnome (RS) or Air Gnome (UA) should work well starting from 1st level; also, the Whisper Gnome also has 30' speed rather than the usual 20' speed for a Small creature. Standard Rock Gnomes from PH make good beguilers due to their +1 DC to illusion spells that make up a large portion of the beguiler spell list. Halfling subraces also have +2 Dex. The Strongheart Halfling (FRCS) is attractive due to its extra feat replacing the halfling's normal +1 racial bonus to saves. Medium races: For Medium creatures, many elf subraces have a +2 bonus to Int, although they lack the size bonuses of small creatures. Feats and additional skill points are valuable to a beguiler (many skills are available), so a human works well for supplying an extra feat and extra skill points. A changeling (EC) also fits the theme of a beguiler quite well. Level-adjusted races: Races with level adjustments generally don't result in fully optimized beguilers. Exceptions are races with just 1 level adjustment and no hit dice; for example, the Chaos Gnome (RS), Air Mephling (PlH), or Tiefling (MM), all of which have attractive ability bonuses and racial features. The Dark Creature template (TM) also imposes a +1 level adjustment, giving you darkvision, hide in plain sight, and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently checks, at the cost of being non-good (see the Feats section below for a discussion of alignment benefits). Level-adjusted races can be especially attractive if your DM allows the variant rule in Unearthed Arcana for buying back level adjustments with XP. Using this rule variant, you buy back a +1 LA with 3,000 XP at 3rd level, essentially playing through 3rd level twice. This leaves you with a 3rd level character and zero LA. You'll be 1 level behind your party members, but you will eventually catch up to them because low-level characters earn XP faster. [smallcaps]Skills and Tricks[/smallcaps] Pay attention to skill synergies, where having 5 ranks in one skill gives you a +2 bonus in another skill. The beguiler has several skills where this works well. Maximize your synergy bonuses if you have the skill points. If your party needs a rogue to find traps, build up ranks in Search and Disable Device. Many skills enhance your innate abilities. Move Silently, Hide, and Sleight of Hand help you with Suprise Casting. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Speak Language can aid illusion spells. Tumble is useful in full defense when controlling illusions. Class skills you may want to forgo: Don't bother with Open Locks because you get the knock spell at 4th level. Escape Artist becomes redundant when you get the freedom of movement spell at 8th level. If you are willing to risk grapples and other situations until 8th level, minimize your Escape Artist ranks so that you can use those skill points elsewhere. Spellcraft isn't useful to a beguiler except as a prerequisite for some feats and prestige classes. Skill Tricks: Complete Scoundrel introduced skill tricks, in which you can use 2 skill points to buy a special ability applied to a skill. Skill tricks seem like a cross between skills and feats, not as powerful as feats, but stronger than simple skills. Several tricks suit the beguiler quite well: Level 2: Conceal Spellcasting* - don't be seen casting; good in social situations, and also in melee to prevent attacks of opportunity when you aren't hidden. Level 3: Assume Quirk - social interaction; people who know you don't get a bonus to see through your disguise. Level 5: Group Fake-Out* - feint in combat against multiple opponents, making them all susceptible to your Cloaked Casting ability. Level 7: Second Impression - make a Bluff check to re-establish a blown disguise. Level 9: Swift Concentration* - concentration checks are a swift action, allowing you to maintain an illusion spell and cast another. Level 11: Clarity of Vision - make a spot check to see invisibility for 1 round. Level 13: Timely Misdirection - feinting in combat is enhanced by denying the opponent's attacks of opportunity also. Level 15: False Theurgy - mask your illusion spells against arcane casters, but requires ranks in Spellcraft. Movement tricks may be useful for a small character, although not as powerful as a rogue's movement abilities. * Consider these high-priority skill tricks. [smallcaps]Equipment[/smallcaps] Besides the usual nonmagical adventuring gear, you will want helpful wondrous items. Depending on the level at which your beguiler starts out (which determines your wealth according to DMG p135, Table 5-1), the following wondrous items are good to have at each level of wealth: Inexpensive items: Blessed bandage (HB, MIC, 10 gp) - As a standard action, use it to stabilize a dying ally (i.e. negative HP and falling). Every member of the party should have one if your game has no rule to use Action Points for such things. Masterwork Tools (PH, 50 gp) - often overlooked, a beguiler gets +2 to Disable Device and Open Lock checks from a set of masterwork thieves' tools. PH p130 gives you the flexibility to come up with any other masterwork tool for a +2 circumstance bonus to a related skill check. Longspoon Masterwork Theives' Tools (CAd, 150 gp) - These long-handled tools grant you a +2 bonus to Disable Device and Open Lock checks from 5 feet away. As a beguiler, you lack the Evasion capability of a rogue, so these tools help you avoid needing Evasion if you set off a trap that deals damage at close range. Everburning Torch (PH, 110 gp). Permanent heatless torchlight, less illumination than a lantern but inexpensive for characters lacking darkvision. Even better, the continual flame spell cast on any worn item serves the same purpose as an everburning torch, and you don't have to hold it in your hand! An ally can cast it for you for 50 gp, or you can spend the equivalent gp of an everburning torch to hire a wizard to cast continual flame for you. Up to 900 gp: Everbright Lantern (EC, 212 gp) - Useful for illumination (better than a torch) if your character has no darkvision. Silent Portal Disk (Mag [3.0], 360 gp) - A command word sticks the disk to any "portal" surface (e.g. lid, door, window), silencing the sound of opening the portal. Quall's Feather Token (DMG, up to 450 gp) - Single use sudden creation of a large fan, tree, or boat in any inappropriate place, useful for concealment or causing general mayhem. Vestment of Many Styles (RE, 500 gp): Changes into any clothing with a command word, +2 bonus to Disguise when disguise includes clothing. Bag of Tricks (DMG, 900 gp) - draw out 10 random small creatures per week to do your bidding for 10 minutes each. Hand of the Mage (DMG, 900 gp) - cast mage hand at will to propel objects 15 feet in any direction. Good for prankster beguilers. Up to 2,700 gp: Cloak of Elemental Protection (MH, 1,000 gp) - Resist energy 10 as an immediate action. Cloak of Resistance +1 (DMG, 1,000 gp) - gives you a +1 resistance bonus to all saves for 1,000 gp. Goggles of Minute Seeing (DMG, 1,250 gp) - grants a +5 bonus to Search checks when looking for secret doors, traps, and concealed objects. Easy traveling armor enhancement (HB, 1,500 gp) - This enhancement has value with Strength as your dump stat. It allows you to carry a Medium load as if it were Light, and walk 10 hours/day before risking damage from exhaustion. Hat of Disguise (DMG, 1,800 gp) - A beguiler can already cast disguise self but at lower levels this item gives you more freedom with spell slots. Heward's Handy Haversack (DMG, 2,000 gp) - backpack to hold all your tools and treasure. Regardless of what you put in it, the pack always weighs 5 lb (important with Str as your dump stat), and retrieving anything from it doesn't cost a move action because what you want is always magically on top. It's a bargain for the price. Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC, 2,000 gp) is an essential item that makes you invisible to darkvision. Add another 500 gp to combine it with the Darklight Lantern from Eberron's Secrets of Sarlona, pay others a small amount to keep it charged, and you remove all natural light around you. Combined with the feat Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe, you have the concealment to remain hidden continuously. Up to 5,400 gp: Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (CM, 3,000 gp) - lets you regain spells with only one hour of sleep rather than eight. Lesser Rod of Metmagic Extend (DMG, 3,000 gp) - cheap way to extend some of your spells. Amulet of Health +2 or any other Con-enhancing item (DMG, 4,000 gp) - improves your HP and adds +1 bonus to concentration checks. Headband of Conscious Effort (CAd, 4,000 gp) - 1/day, make a Concentration check in place of a Fortitude save. Headband of Intelligence +2 or any other Int-enhancing item (DMG, 4,000 gp) - for more spells per day and higher spell DC. An item like this should be high-priority for a beguiler. Shadowy Diadem (DM, 4,000 gp) - As a swift action, this headband gives you concealment in darkness and immunity from energy drain effects, 3X/day for 10 rounds. Good value, but you must understand Draconic to use it. Pendant of joy (RE, 5,000 gp) - Provides +5 morale bonus to Diplomacy to all within 30 feet. Wearer must have at least 1 power point. This works well for an Empty Vessel beguiler (human traits, 1 pp per HD, +2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate; tradeoff is Psion as a favored class and a +1 LA), as well as for Kalashtar (who are similar, but don't get human traits, with mindlink 1/day as a psi-like ability instead). Smoking Weapon enhancement (LD [3.0], +1) - A creature attempting to grapple you is subject to nausea from stinking cloud spell, which produces noxious smoke that provides 1/2 concealment. Up to 9,000 gp: Boots of Striding and Springing (DMG, 5,500 gp) - Add 10 feet to speed and +5 to Jump checks. Good for letting small creatures keep up, although your DM may allow you to eliminate the Jump bonus (see Boots of Striding above). Mantle of Second Chances (DMG2, 6,000 gp) - 1/day re-roll before the DM declares success or failure of the original roll. This stacks with the re-roll ability granted from a class feature (e.g. Luck domain). It may also stack with the Luck of Chaos racial ability of the Chaos Gnome (RS). Metamagic Wandgrip (CM, 6,000 gp) - If have ranks in Use Magic Device to let you use wands, you can apply any one of your metamagic feats to the wand 3 times per day (normal spell level adjustment still applies). Rod of Shadowblending (CM, 9,000 gp) - 3/day transform minor image or major image into shadow conjuration, or major image into shadow evocation. Good for changing your illusions into shadow. [post=11686569]According to WoTC[/post] it would even let you cast shadow evocation before you would normally be able to cast 5th level spells. Eager weapon enhancement (AE [3.0], +2) - An eager weapon grants +2 to Initiative checks regardless of whether it's used, and may be drawn as a free action. Up to 13,000 gp: Collar of Umbral Metamporph (TM, 10,800 gp) gives you on command the Dark Creature template (see Races section above) for 10 minutes/day (spread out as you want), which includes +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently, +10 feet to speed, cold resistance 10, darkvision 60 feet, and best of all, Hide in Plain Sight. Up to 19,000 gp: Veil of Allure (Sa, 14,000 gp) - Adds +2 to your enchantment save DC and Cha-based supernatural abilities. Up to 27,000 gp: Belt of Magnificence (MH, 25,000 gp) - adds +2 to all six of your ability stats. It may seem expensive until you realize that the DMG pricing rules would require that this item be worth 34,000 gp. Ring of Evasion (DMG, 25,000 gp) - You take no damage when succeeding on a Reflex save where you'd normally take half damage (a 2nd level rogue already has this ability). Up to 36,000 gp: Up to 49,000 gp: Scarab of Protection (DMG, 38,000 gp) - Confers Spell Resistance 20, and contains 12 charges of protection against energy drain, death effects, and negative energy effects. Upon absorbing 12 such attacks, the item disintegrates. The price may seem expensive for a limited-use item, but it is far cheaper than a similar item that lasts forever, and why pay for something that lasts longer than you need it? The value comes from having enough uses to get you through a typical campaign, saving you much gold. The [thread=657626]Bunko's Bargain Basement[/thread] thread lists several items having high value for the price, many of which are useful to a beguiler. Keep in mind that items from 3.0 sources are priced according to obsolete guidelines (especially items that enhance skills or saves); your DM may require you to review the market values of 3.0 items before bringing them into a 3.5 game. Customized items If you are joining the game at higher levels, ask your DM for permission to customize items before your character enters the game; say, your character has hired the services of a wizard in town to craft something special for you, priced according to the item creation pricing rules in the DMG. In some cases a wizard or artificer in your party may agree to craft something for you. For example: Headband of Intelligence +1 (custom, 1,000 gp) - The reason the DMG has items with only even-valued ability bonuses is so that all characters will get the same benefit (+1 to an ability modifier). Some DMs will allow +1 ability items. If your DM is uncomfortable with the idea, offer a compromise: you will apply the +1 item to an ability that is already even, so you'll get the benefit from the item only when you increase the ability by +1 again when you hit levels 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20. By applying a +1 item only to even-valued ability, you don't have an unfair advantage. Reflexive Belt (custom, 1,333 gp) - gives +2 resistance only to Reflex saves (important when disabling traps), rather than all saves. Lesser Ring of Evasion (custom, 1,500 gp) - The normal Ring of Evasion is beyond the reach of low-level beguilers. Your DM may allow you to hire a wizard to craft a custom "Lesser Ring of Evasion" that activates on the first half-Reflex save per day, maximum 30 charges. Just having this capability once per day can be a life-saver. Goggles of Concentration +4, or Headband of Concentration +4 (custom, 1,600 gp) - It's hard to find magic items that enhance Concentration checks. The magical bonus is a competence bonus. Some sort of masterwork hand-held tool of concentration bestows a +2 circumstance bonus for only 50 gp (PH p130), so magically enhancing such a tool with a +4 competence bonus would provide a total of +6 to Concentration checks for just 1,650 gp. Boots of Striding (custom, 2,000 gp) - good for increasing the speed of small races. The DMG's Boots of Striding and Springing cost much more due to the +5 bonus to Jump checks. Hire a wizard to craft simply "Boots of Striding" for just the +10 speed benefit. [smallcaps]Flaws[/smallcaps] You only have 7 or 8 feat slots in 20 levels (depending on your race), so you have to be selective, especially with feats that have other feats as prerequisites. Because most campaigns play at mid levels up to around level 12, your first 4 or 5 feats are critical for determining what you really want to do with your character. If your DM allows it, you can obain an additional two feats at 1st level by taking two flaws (UA p91). Flaws that penalize attacks won't harm a beguiler much; however, the flaws you take must be meaningful, so your DM will likely disallow melee-attack flaws. Meaningful ones might include: Frail - If your Con is good, subtract 1 from the number of hit points you gain at each level. Inattentive - Take a -4 penalty to Listen and Spot checks. If your allies have good Listen and Spot, this may be worthwhile. Pathetic - Reduce your dump stat (Str) by 2 if the total of your ability modifiers is less than 8. Unreactive - Take a -6 penalty on initiative checks. Painful, but might be worth a feat in exchange. Vulnerable - Take a -1 penalty to Armor Class. [smallcaps]Feats[/smallcaps] Spell DC enhancers For good-aligned beguilers, it's hard to beat the benefits of Exalted feats, but you can't use them if you multiclass with non-good prestige classes (such as Mindbender) or acquire a non-good template (such as Shadow Creature). Good alignment with Vow of Nonviolence increases the save DC of your spells by +4 in many (but not all) situations. Combat Charm (DR312 p51) - deny foes their save bonus against your Enchantment (charm) spells in combat. Requires 13 Wisdom. Note that this feat benefits only 3 beguiler spells (charm monster, charm person, and stay the hand) plus any other charm spell you might add from Advanced Learning. Except for mass charm monster or mass charm person, other charm spells don't benefit from this feat. Heighten Spell (PH) - This is a metamagic feat with a variable increase in caster level. You can increase the caster level of any spell up to the maximum you can cast, with a corresponding increase in spell DC and anything else dependent on spell level. Of course, if you cast a spell at a higher level, you use up a higher level spell per day. Mastery of Dreams (PE) - Add +1 DC to your illusion and fear spells. Shadow Weave Magic (PGF) - Adds +1 to DC of both illusion and enchantment spells, plus +1 to overcome spell resistance. You must either worship Shar (evil alignment) or have at least 15 Wisdom. Any spells with the Light descriptor won't work, but for a beguiler that's just dancing lights. Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil) (MoI) - gain a +1 insight bonus to the DC of your illusion spells. If you already have essentia (from another feat or from being an Azurin), then Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil) also extends the duration of your spells. Spell focus (enchantment) - add +1 DC to enchantment spells. Take Greater Spell Focus for an additional +1 DC. Spell focus (illusion) - add +1 DC to illusion spells, the other major portion of a beguiler's suite of spells. Note that these two Spell Focus feats don't offer the same level of DC enhancement as the Exalted feats, but they have the advantage of freeing you to have a non-good alignment. Vow of Nonviolence (BE) (Exalted, requires Sacred Vow prerequisite feat) - You get a +4 bonus on save DCs of nondamaging spells cast against humanoids or monstrous humanoids. This feat covers nearly all beguiler spells, including all the nonlethal damage spells. Difficulties: You can't let allies kill a helpless humanoid foe unless you convince the foe to take an oath of surrender or noninterference, and the foe breaks that oath. Any ally who slays a helpless enemy in your presence suffers -1 penalty to attacks for 1 hour per your character level, and you can't leave the area to let allies slay a helpless foe. Metamagic Metamagic feat prerequisites shouldn't be a problem because a beguiler already gets two metamagic feats for free: Silent Spell and Still Spell, at 5th and 10th levels, respectively. The metamagic feats for a beguiler require you to cast a spell as if it were a higher caster level. Metamagic feats also increase casting time from a standard action to a full-round action, or adds an additional full-round for spells having a full-round or longer casting time. 0 caster level adjustment: Rapid Metamagic (CM) - lets you apply metamagic on the fly without increasing casting time. Requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft. +1 caster level adjustment: Energize Spell (LM) - Your spell does 150% damage to undead, 50% to others. Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell (PH) - double a spell's range or duration, respectively. Retributive Spell (CM) - any time you experience damage from a melee attack within 24 hours of applying this feat to a single spell of your choosing, you can cast that spell on the attacker as an immediate action. You can target one creature on each use. Fortify Spell (CAr) - spell receives +2 bonus on caster check to overcome spell resistance. You may apply this to a spell multiple times, each time increasing the spell's caster level by another +1. Song of the Dead (DR312 p37) - Mind-affecting spells affect intelligent undead, but not mindless undead, constructs, or living creatures. Note: This feat converts the spell to a Necromancy spell, which may make it unavailable for a beguiler. Consult your DM. +2 caster level adjustment: Empower Spell (PH) - all numeric values of the spell (like number of dice) increase by 50%. Reach Spell (CD) - convert a "touch" spell to a 30-foot range ray spell, requiring a ranged touch attack. Split Ray (CAr) - cast two rays for a single-ray spell, on the same target or another within 30 feet. +3 caster level adjustment: Chain Spell (CAr) - Your spell affects a number of secondary targets up to your caster level. Repeat Spell (CAr) - The spell you cast previous round is automatically cast again from the location you originally cast it, at the same target, without requiring any action from you. +4 caster level adjustment: Twin Spell (CAr) - The target takes the spell effect twice, and has to save against it twice. Other useful feats In alphabetical order, here are other feats that a beguiler may find useful (suggestions for additions are welcome): Action Surge (EC) - lets you cast 2 spells in one round at the cost of 2 action points. Dazzling Illusion (CM) - If you have Spell Focus (Illusion), this feat adds a dazzle effect to your illusion spells, dazzling enemies within 30 feet for 1 round. Exalted feats - Exalted characters can be difficult to play. If you go Exalted, you may as well use other Exalted feats that look good to you, for example: Nymph's Kiss (BE) gives you +2 to all Charisma-based skill checks (useful for Bluff with the beguiler's Cloaked Casting), 1 additional skill point per level (as with humans), +1 to all saves against spells and spell-like abilities. Vow of Peace (BE) gives you up to +6 to your AC. Extra spell (CAr) - Learn an extra spell at any level lower than your highest spell level. Extraordinary Concentration (CAd) - maintain concentration as a move or swift action. Alternatively, you may find it more valuable instead to take the Swift Concentration skill trick for 2 skill points at 9th level. Force of Personality (CAd) - Add your Cha modifier to Will saves rather than your Wis modifier. This feat is worth taking if your Charisma exceeds Wisdom by 6 or more. Goad (CAd) - cause opponents to attack only you, which may be advantageous with illusion spells. Improved Feint (requires Combat Expertise) - makes feinting a swift action. Depending on your concept for your beguiler, this may be useful if you get metamagic spell enhancements, in which case swift feinting is beneficial. Otherwise, the beguiler spells don't require touch attacks, so this feat is unlikely to be needed unless you multiclass. Improved Initiative - adds +4 to your Initiative check, enhancing your chance of taking action ahead of your foes to soften them up for your allies. Insightful Reflexes (CAd) - Add your Int modifier to Reflex saves rather than your Dex modifier. With maximized Int, you may be able to swap your dice rolls for Dex and Con (making Con higher than Dex), but you would have lower bonuses to useful Dex-based skills. Mastery of Faerie Enchantment (PE) - extend your enchantment spells to improve your ability to control the minds of creatures. Mastery of Twisted Shadow (PE) - free blur spell effect when you cast an illusion spell. Mindsight (LoM p126) - This is similar to Blindsense. If you dip into the Mindbender prestige class, you can use this feat to telepathically pinpoint any sentient creatures within 100 feet; useful magical darkness situations. Shape Soulmeld (MoI) - gives you various advantages depending on which version you take: Truthseeker Goggles or Theft Gloves - grants +2 on 3 different skills Necrocarnum Touch, Kruthik Claw, Krenshar Mask, Lamia Belt - grants +4 boost on 2 different skills Blink Shirt - for emergency escapes Unsettling Enchantment (CM) - If you have Spell Focus (Enchantment), this feat gives your enchantment spells the ability to cloud opponents' minds even if they succeed on a save. They take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and AC for 1 round. [smallcaps]Spells[/smallcaps] Most of a beguiler's spells are enchantment or illusion, but you also get some useful tools that include divination spells. With enchantment spells you can modify the behavior of others, making them your puppets. Some spells are long lasting, so you can create multiple puppets. Others you cast on the fly to incite riots and give suggestions. You also have spells to dominate and compel your target's actions directly, although these spells won't let you gain information from them. You also have a good mix of spells that stop targets in their tracks (hold, stun, confusion, etc...). Your illusion spells include invisibility, which is probably the most important spell to the beguiler, and its effect is improved with your Hide and Move Silently skills. You also have some image spells (silent image, mirror image, blur) that create decoys to confuse your enemies but require concentration. In addition, you have spells to ward off scrying and detection. Useful tool spells include things like haste and mage armor. The beguiler also has an advantage over sorcerers and wizards with divination spells. The sorcerer must use up a known spell and the wizard must lock a spell slot to have access to a divination spell. The beguiler has equal access to his divination spells as any other of his spells. Other useful tools include spells against magic (break enchantment, dispel magic, spell turning), area effect spells (obscuring mist, zone of silence) for combat or masking the party's movements. Freedom of movement lets you escape grapples, and glibness for boosting Bluff by +30 lets you get away with saying anything. Advanced Learning spell choices A beguiler gains Advanced Learning at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, which allows you to permanently add one sorcerer/wizard spell of the Enchantment or Illusion school to your spell list, at up to the highest level beguiler spell you can currently cast. Because you also get new higher level spells at levels 8, 12, and 16, it might make sense to dip into a prestige class like Mindbender or Visionary Seeker to delay Advanced Learning by one level to allow you to take higher-level spells. You don't have to take the highest-level spell you can learn. You might find, for example, that you don't want to use up another 3rd level spell slot, so you use Advanced Learning to learn a 2nd level spell instead; even some 1st level spells are powerful. Depending on the level of spell you want to pick, you have many choices. Here are suggestions: 1st level spells are all you can learn at your first Advanced Learning level (beguler level 3): Distract assailant (CAd) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Even though this spell is only 1st level, it can be cast as a swift action to render an opponent flat-footed in the same round you cast another spell. Useful for getting more uses out of higher level spells that would otherwise be consumed by casting invisibility. Net of shadows (SC) (Illus(Shadow)[dark]) - blanket enemies in shadows, reducing their vision to 5 ft and giving them concealment (also usefull for hiding allies). Power word pain (RD) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - deals 1d6 damage for multiple rounds depending on target's HP. 2nd level spells: Power word sicken (RD) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Sickens 1 creature with less than 100 HP; no save. Ray of stupidity (SC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Target takes 1d4+1 Int damage, and doesn't get a saving throw. Useful against Int-based spellcasters such as wizards. Shadow binding (SC) (Illus(Shadow)) - Entangles creatures in a 10-ft radius burst. Shadow spray (SC) (Illus(Shadow)) - ribbonlike shadows deal 4 points Str damage and daze creatures for 1 round. Tasha's hideous laughter (PH) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Subject loses actions for 1 round/level, from laughing too hard. 3rd level spells: Heroism (PH) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - If opponents constantly save against your spells, you may as well buff up an ally. Ray of Dizziness (SC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Target can't take full-round actions, and doesn't get any saving throw. Ray spells are useful with the Chain Spell metamagic feat. Spectral weapon (SC) (Illus(Shadow)) - create melee weapon that uses melee touch attacks; a subject succeeding a Will save takes half damage. 4th level spells can be learned at your second Advanced Learning level (beguiler level 7) if you dip into a level of Mindbender or Visionary Seeker beforehand: Shadow conjuration (PH) (Illus(Shadow)) - Expand your spell list with all of the Conjuration (Summoning) or Conjuration (Creation) spells a sorcerer or wizard can cast, up to 3rd level. This is a huge number of spells, giving you many options. Creatures can get two saves, though: a Will-partial save for shadow conjuration (even if the creature makes the save, you still inflict 20% of the effects) and another save for the spell you are conjuring. Some spells have no save (such as the lesser orb spells) so the creature gets only the Will save versus your shadow conjuration and they still take partial damage if they succeed on the save. Some spells also have social uses: clothier's closet (MoE), greater mage armor (PH), regal procession (SC), and unseen servant (PH), for example. Shadow well (SC) (Illus(Shadow)) - Send an enemy to the plane of shadow (removing him from combat); upon return he must save to avoid being frightened for 1d4 rounds. 5th level spells can be taken at third Advanced Learning by a single-class 11th-level beguiler: Power word disable (RD) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - If you suspect a creature has 50 HP or less, you instantly reduce its HP to zero. No save. Shadow evocation (PH) (Illus(Shadow)) - Expand your spell list with all of the Evocation spells a sorcerer or wizard can cast, up to 4th level. This is even more spells than shadow conjuration. Creatures get a Will-partial save for shadow evocation (even if the creature makes the save, you still inflict 20% of the effects) and another save for the spell you evoke - if it has a save. A large number of these spells have no save (15 spells from Player's Handbook alone, and even more from Spell Compendium). 6th level spells can be taken at your third Advanced Learning (beguiler level 11) if you dip into a prestige class that continues your caster progression: Power word nauseate (RD) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - nauseates 1 living creature of less than 150 HP; it can do nothing but move. No save. 7th level spells: Hiss of sleep (SC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - One creature/level drops to sleep, comatose and helpless. Will save, but no spell resistance. Solipsism (SC) (Illus(Phant)[mind]) - subject believes everything is an illusion (including hostile actions) and takes no actions, not even to defend itself from attacks. Symbol of stunning (PH) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Stun all creatures within 60 feet for 1d6 rounds. 8th level spells: Maddening whispers (SC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Inflict 1 creature/level with your choice of hysterical laughing to prevent actions (as with Tasha's hideous laughter, panic to cause fleeing or cowering, violent hallucinations to go berserk against nearest creature, or a stunned prone stupor. Mass charm monster (PH) (Ench(Charm)[mind]) - Why fight if you can convert your enemies to friends? Superior invisibility (SC) (Illus(Glamer)) - makes you undetectable to keen hearing or smell, but won't work against true seeing. Symbol of insanity (PH) (Ench(Comp[mind]) - Any creature within 60 feet of a rune you scribe becomes permanently insane. 9th level spells: Programmed ammnesia (SC) (Ench(Comp)[mind]) - Erase or implant memories in a subject, bestow negative levels, rebuild a persona, and cause any of these effects to be triggered later. [smallcaps]Multiclassing[/smallcaps] In general, the beguiler doesn't gain a boost when multiclassed. The added benefits often don't compensate for the loss of skill points, but there are exceptions. While this article focuses on single-class beguilers, an occasional dip into another class can help, or you may want to stop taking beguiler levels and continue on in a synergistic prestige class. Most classes below can be taken only at high levels. A 1-level dip into any class that allows you to continue your caster progression is extremely valuable because then, Advanced Learning allows you to pick a higher-level extra spell than usual. Normally a 7th-level beguiler can pick an extra 3rd-level spell. But dipping into a class like Mindbender or Visionary Seeker delays beguiler7 to 8th character level, which allows you to learn extra 4th-level spell. The Advanced Learning abilities at beguiler11 and beguiler15 are similarly delayed to allow you to pick extra higher-level spells. Anima Mage (TM) with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige add versatility and metamagic interaction to the beguiler class, but you need to take some levels in Binder. Divine Oracle (CD) requires 8 ranks in Knowlege (Religion); attainable with a dip in Mindbender. You gain access to the Oracle Domain (Spells and Power), Trap Sense, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and at 10th level you can never be suprised. These abilities make you more rogue-like at the cost of some skills, but have good synergy with a beguiler. If you plan to take the Loremaster prestige class, this is also a good lead-in. 1 level of Fatespinner (CAr) lets you boost your spell DC by 1, once per day, without sacrificing a caster level in the beguiler progression, but requires 5 ranks in Profession (gambler) and 9 beguiler levels. A level of Fatespinner also has a similar advantage as the Mindbender and Visionary Seeker PrC (below), delaying the beguiler's Advanced Learning by 1 level, allowing you to take learn a higher-level spell than normal at beguiler levels 11, 15, and 19. Both Mindbender and Visionary Seeker bestow this advantage earlier; however, Fatespinner may be a good choice if you find the other class features attractive. Human Paragon (UA) gives you improved Intelligence, an extra feat, more hit points, and another class skill, but not without cost: You sacrifice a caster level, skill points, and overall class progression. Loredelver (RD) costs you a caster level, but offers interesting alternate class features without losing skill points. If you want to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist, you may want this. Taking 1 level of Mindbender (CAr) at 6th level has the advantage of continuing your caster level progression and delaying the beguiler7 Advanced Learning ability to 8th level. A disadvantage is the requirement of 4 ranks on Intimidate, which is a cross-class skill. A Mindbender must also have a non-good alignment, so you can't take any Exalted feats (see above). Good-aligned characters might consider Visionary Seeker as an alternative (below). 2 levels of Prestige Bard (UA) costs you a beguiler caster level, but in return you cast spells as if you are +2 caster levels higher, you get compatible skill synergies, improved Reflex and Will saves, bardic lore, 2 uses of bardic music, +1 base attack bonus, and +1 beguiler caster level. You do need Perform ranks, however. 4 levels of Recaster (RE) is a good choice for adding metamagic, and extending your spell list. Rogue - Small characters may benefit from the Evasion ability of a rogue or monk, which allows you to take no damage when you succeed on a Reflex save that would normally deal 1/2 damage. The quickest way to gain Evasion is to take two levels of rogue. If you don't want to sacrifice levels, see the Ring of Evasion in the Equipment section above. Shadow Adept (PGF) is an easy prestige class for a beguiler if you take 8 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft; the beguiler already gets a required metamagic feat automatically. In exchange you get a quick 3 free feats: Insidious Magic for foiling opponents when invisible, Persistent Magic which gives you a +4 bonus to overcome Spell Resistance, and Tenacious Magic to give your spells a DC of 15+spell level to dispell them. However, you can't have good alignment and must have the Shadow Weave feat, which is specific to the Forgotten Realms setting. Shadowcraft Mage (RS) boosts your illusion spell capabilities; good synergy with the beguiler's Advanced Learning capability. If your beguiler is a gnome, the synergy of Shadowcraft Mage makes this class almost mandatory! The best gnome beguiler builds will involve taking levels in Shadowcraft Mage. See the builds below and the [thread=655556]Shadowcraft Mage Handbook[/thread] for more information. Soulcaster (MoI) boosts the caster level of your illusion spells and offers soul meld, but otherwise compromises your caster level. The Ultimate Magus (CM) prestige class is intended for characters having both wizardly and sorcerous abilities, so multiple levels in this class won't benefit a beguiler. However a 1-level dip maintains your caster level progression, giving you the benefit of delaying Advanced Learning by 1 level (as with Mindbender). As an added bonus, you also gain +1 caster level to all your spells. You need 4 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 8 ranks in Spellcraft to qualify for this class. Taking 1 level of Visionary Seeker (PlH), like Mindbender above, also delays the beguiler7 Advanced Learning ability to 8th level -- with the advantage that you can be good-aligned and still take the Exalted feats for high save DC on your spells. You need 8 ranks in any Knowledge skill to qualify. You also get a +2 boost to Reflex saves. 1 level of Visionary Seeker doesn't confer any other benefit except letting you cast divination spells at 1 higher caster level. The beguiler gets 15 divination spells, and five of them would benefit from this prestige class: arcane sight, greater arcane sight, detect magic, detect thoughts, and read magic. At first glance, Daggerspell Shaper or Arcane Trickster seem like good fits. However, the sneak attack ability isn't useful because you don't have damage spells, and Arcane Trickster requires mage hand which isn't part of a beguiler's spell list. Your skill and class features are better off if you remain a beguiler. [smallcaps]Basic optimal builds[/smallcaps] Assuming the beguiler class attracts you for its thematic blend of skills and spells, these builds will maximize the beguiler's features in most D&D games with minimal class changes: Good-aligned: Any race: straight beguiler all the way, or Beguiler 5 / Visionary Seeker 1 / Beguiler +X. A straight beguiler can hold its own in any group of multiclassed PCs. Gnome: Beguiler 8 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Beguiler +X. Non-good-aligned: Any race: Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler +X. Gnome: Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Beguiler +2 / Shadowcraft Mage 5. The beguiler is a class that can hold up very well on its own without multiclassing, becoming a top-tier PC with respect to power and flexibility. There isn't much one can do to enhance it and still retain the identity of beguiler. [smallcaps]Combat tactics[/smallcaps] A beguiler in combat is all about battlefield control. So what can you do? Here are suggestions for tactics that are useful during your first 7 to 10 levels. How Not To Be Seen No matter what you face, if you hit your enemy with blinding color surge as your first action, the worst that can happen is the creature makes his save, in which case you become invisible to the creature! You are now effectively "hiding in plain sight" and you get a Cloaked Casting bonus to your DC for further spells (including blinding color surge again, to be nasty). If the enemy fails his save, he's blinded. You and your allies can now defeat him quickly! This is an incredibly useful spell. Just be sure to Move Silently away from the last place you cast a spell, to foil the enemy's chances to attack you. Illusion Confusion The spells minor image, major image, mirror image, and ghost sound draw your opponents' attention away from your allies. Your opponents now have an increased number of targets and your allies suffer a decreased number of damaging strikes. Your allies can also get flanking bonuses from the images. Images also serve as good "bait" for as many nasty traps as you can set up. Dangerous Distraction You can pick up the distract assailant (CAd) spell with first Advanced Learning to make yourself quite dangerous. You cast this spell as a swift action (basically a free action that you can take once per round). Your enemy becomes flat-footed until his next turn. Not only can your allies now attack the enemy more easily, but you can still cast another spell in the same round with a higher spell DC, because your Cloaked Casting bonus kicks in due to your opponent being flat-footed! This is a particularly dangerous spell for your enemies, but pay attention to initiative order: If you to cast this spell just before your opponent's turn, he's flat-footed only long enough for you to fire off another spell, and your allies won't get the benefit of your enemy's flat-footed AC. [smallcaps]Key to sources[/smallcaps] The full list of abbreviations is at the bottom of this page. Sources used here: AE = Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0) BE = Book of Exalted Deeds CAd = Complete Adventurer CAr = Complete Arcane CD = Complete Divine CM = Complete Mage CS = Complete Scoundrel DM = Dragon Magic DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide DMG2 = Dungeon Master's Guide II DRxxx = Dragon Magazine issue xxx. EC = Eberron Campaign Setting FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting HB = Heroes of Battle LD = Lords of Darkness (FRCS 3.0) Mag = Magic of Faerûn (FRCS 3.0) MIC = Magic Item Compendium MoE = Magic of Eberron MoI = Magic of Incarnum PE = Player's Guide to Eberron PGF = Player's Guide to Faerûn PH = Player's Handbook PlH = Planar Handbook PH2 = Player's Handbook II RD = Races of Destiny RE = Races of Eberron RS = Races of Stone Sa = Sandstorm SC = Spell Compendium TM = Tome of Magic UA = Unearthed Arcana
#2 Harliquinn Mar 09, 2007 8:13:20	Another nice feat: Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil) gives higher Illusion DC's. Harliquinn
#3 kaiza Mar 09, 2007 8:21:53	The Beguiler (DMG2) PHBII ;) k.
#4 amatulic Mar 09, 2007 9:21:19	PHBII ;) Oops. I'll fix it. Another nice feat: Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil) gives higher Illusion DC's. Um... I'm not too familiar with Magic of Incarnum but it appears that feat requires you to multiclass your beguiler with incarnate or soulborn. Please help me understand the advantages of these classes for a beguiler versus simply taking Spell Focus (Illusion). I can see there are some interesting gnome racial substitution buffs, but am I missing something I should be seeing? -A
#5 pyro_cat Mar 09, 2007 11:10:09	You can't get into Anima Mage without levels in Binder.
#6 Richmud Mar 09, 2007 11:24:54	Um... I'm not too familiar with Magic of Incarnum but it appears that feat requires you to multiclass your beguiler with incarnate or soulborn. Please help me understand the advantages of these classes for a beguiler versus simply taking Spell Focus (Illusion). I can see there are some interesting gnome racial substitution buffs, but am I missing something I should be seeing? -A The shape soulmeld feat does not require you to be an incarnate/soulborn/totemist it simply gives you the ability to shape one soulmeld. The primary advantage comes up if you already of essentia from some other source (being an azurin for example, which isn't an entirely bad idea) or if you ware willing to take another feat (forgot the name but it provides 2 points of essentia) you can get a higher bonus then spell focus illusion and greater spell focus illusion for the same number of feats
#7 daffydd_ap_hywell Mar 09, 2007 11:33:38	I'm sure someone has mentioned it already, but, Ultimate Magus, focusing more on the beguiler side would work good. Wizards use Int as well. The precocious apprentice/practiced spellcaster trick should allow beguiler to be the main focus. I'm working on a character like that for when my half-orc bard inevitably bites it.
#8 UCsimplyme Mar 09, 2007 11:56:09	Another wonderful Beguiler build that gives them a bit of damage and survivability to work with is the: Human Beguiler 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurg 10/(any last 3) Feats 1st Able Learner 1st Fey Heritage 3rd Fey Skin 6th Fey Power 9th Fey Legacy 12th Fey Presence 15th Extra Spell/Invocation 18th Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) Able learner allows you to keep your rogue-ish skills maxed while gaining levels in the warlock/Eldritch Theurg. The Fey feat chain is really all about Fey Skin which grants you DR x+y+1/cold iron where x equals the number of other feats you have that have a prerequisite of Fey Heritage and y equals the amount of DR y/cold iron you have from any other source. Yep, that is right, this will stack with the DR you get from both Warlock and Eld. Theurg to equal perma DR 10/cold iron. Couple this with fey power which is boosts the DCs of enchantment spells/abiliities and invocations by 1 (yes, it is spell focus: enchantment +1). Lather up both of these feats with healthy doses of once per day usable spell like abiliites like confusion, dimension door, summon nature's ally V, charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self and you are starting to really get something out of this feat chain. For Invocations I would go with: Least See the Unseen Baleful Utterance SIckening Blast Lesser Eldritch Chain Fell Flight Curse of Despair Greater Hindering Blast Nightmares Made Real Chilling Tentacles Dark Eldritch Doom If you haven't read Nightmares Made Real, you need to. It was made for a character like this. Pop out, cast a spell, and re-hide while people are staring at you. Good stuff. I might even pick up walk unseen if you really want to be invisable most of the time. I think this combo has tons of potential and should be added to any beguiler guide.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 09, 2007 13:44:15	That's more of a warlock build than a beguiler build, and I would hate being a level 8 character with only 2nd level spells, a 2d6 blast, and 3 least invocations. No metamagic, tanked skills because of the theurge, the EB can't beat SR, the class progression misses out on deceive item, the cool warlock ability, and the better advanced learnings and I guess surprise casting (move action), which is pretty cool when you're forced into melee range, which is also the only place DR matters, unless every archer you run into forgets to pack cold iron arrows. It has worse HP than a straight beguiler because of the theurge. Plaino beguilers are fine at surviving via defensive illusion buffs, get party buffs, and have nice disabler spells, all of which the theurge misses out on til high levels. Then again I really enjoy my pretty much straight up beguiler/mindbender. Combat Charm is a nice feat from dragon compendium (preview w/ google) that negates the DC penalty for charming in combat. req wisdom though.
#10 amatulic Mar 09, 2007 14:16:49	Thanks for the suggestions, all. I edited the original article: added Combat Charm feat per NearDeadDumbledizzy added Shape Soulmeld (various) feats per Harliquinn and Richmud and the old Beguiler Handbook thread noted need for Binder in Anima Mage, per pyro_cat minor copyedits, spelling and grammar fixes Still need to study Ultimate Magus suggestion from Daffydd_ap_Hywell -A
#11 UCsimplyme Mar 09, 2007 15:34:50	That's more of a warlock build than a beguiler build, and I would hate being a level 8 character with only 2nd level spells, a 2d6 blast, and 3 least invocations. In your criticism, you of course chose the weakest level in the entire build. Let me point out that 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack is going to be more reliable damage than almost any other pure beguiler build and the damage only goes up from there. Similarly, you can easily have the lesser chausible of fell power to add 1d6 to your damage and even possibly have the greater version which would bump your damage to 4d6. Likewise, look down the road in 5 or 6 levels and you start to see a different story. No metamagic, tanked skills because of the theurge, the EB can't beat SR, No metamagic? What metamagics are you planning? Tanked skills? Assuming a 16 int, you will be able to cap out 6 Rogue skills with others trailing behind. That isn't too shabby. If you can pull an 18 int, you are looking at 7 skills with ranks in a whole bunch more. If you are really concerned about SR, hold off on one or two of the fey feats and grab Practiced Spellcaster for both Warlock and Beguiler earlier. This will solve your SR problem. the class progression misses out on deceive item, the cool warlock ability, and the better advanced learnings and I guess surprise casting (move action), which is pretty cool when you're forced into melee range, which is also the only place DR matters, unless every archer you run into forgets to pack cold iron arrows. It has worse HP than a straight beguiler because of the theurge. Deceive item? Beguilers don't normally get that anyways so what is the big deal? As for needing suprise casting, you won't need it if you can remove yourself from melee dependably. Fell flight takes care of this. Why melee when you can always be out of the way of the action. And no, I don't know alot of NPC archers that are packing cold iron arrows. I sure wouldn't expect their good magical arrows to be cold iron tipped. Lastly, about hit points, because you are taking 10 levels of a prc that grants 1d4 hps, you will have on average 10 less hit points than an average beguiler. This is leveraged against the ability to fly, have permanent DR 10/cold iron, and fast healing 2 for 2 minutes (40 hit points). Plaino beguilers are fine at surviving via defensive illusion buffs, get party buffs, and have nice disabler spells, all of which the theurge misses out on til high levels. Then again I really enjoy my pretty much straight up beguiler/mindbender. Alot of this comparison of course depends on what the last 3 levels are spent in. If you do spend the last 3 levels in Warlock, you gain the Deceive item ability (wow, look at that...), another 1d6 to your eldritch blast and the invocations listed above all functioning at a 20th level caster. If you spend the last 3 levels in Beguiler, you gain more skill points (enough to max another skill), the silent spell feat (there is some metamagic for you!), Suprise casting (Move action), another Advanced Learning (up to a 7th level spell), and you end up at a 17th level beguiler casting. I find it so difficult to understand why you are so negative towards this build. This build is not for the social court/drama/city campaign but one for a player who wants to try the beguiler but knows his DM tends towards combat heavy dungeon crawls. More than anything, this build offers greater survivability AND greater damage (which isn't hard when the beguiler doesn't have any options) while maintaining the general feel of the beguiler class. Just because someone doesn't build a beguiler like you doesn't mean that the build is not optimized.
#12 daffydd_ap_hywell Mar 09, 2007 16:27:55	The build I've been working on actually is going to also include Ultimate Trickster. I'll take 1 more level hit on casting, but those tricks are lovely. Plus I can use them more often, and it gets good skill points. It is requiring a ruling though, as I want to advance UM past 10 with the Ultimate Trickster CLASS FEATURE advancement. So your mileage may vary. Beg 2, W3, UM10, UT 3, last 2 still up for debate. Using Prac Spellcaster to have all the advancements go to Beguiler. Have wizard do something to replace the familiar class feature.
#13 Richmud Mar 09, 2007 17:03:04	The build I've been working on actually is going to also include Ultimate Trickster. I'll take 1 more level hit on casting, but those tricks are lovely. Plus I can use them more often, and it gets good skill points. It is requiring a ruling though, as I want to advance UM past 10 with the Ultimate Trickster CLASS FEATURE advancement. So your mileage may vary. Beg 2, W3, UM10, UT 3, last 2 still up for debate. Using Prac Spellcaster to have all the advancements go to Beguiler. Have wizard do something to replace the familiar class feature. UM has no progression past 10 which means no casting increase, even if it did it would probably end up being like epic mystic theurge and only increasing one at casting class at a time On a side note I believe the class you are referring to is uncanny trickster not ultimate trickster
#14 daffydd_ap_hywell Mar 09, 2007 17:21:51	I think you are right about the trickster class name. My books are at home.
#15 book Mar 09, 2007 19:20:37	Excellent handbook, Amatulic! The beauty of the Beguiler is that even if you stick to it straight-classed, you still will be a top-tier PC in regards to power level and flexibility. But it's nice to see all your options.
#16 Arem_K Mar 09, 2007 20:17:53	Nice Handbook. I have to say I disagree with your stat priorities though. I would go... Intelligence: Obvious Constitution: Hp, fort save, concentration. Dexterity: AC, initiative, reflex save, some of the nicer rogue skills. Charisma: The social skills. Wisdom: Will save, spot and listen...might actually be better than charisma... Strength: Go ahead and dump it. The beguiler's flavor suggests that you should be heavily into the social skills and therefore it seems like you should pump charisma. However, charisma, unlike every other stat in the game, does nothing for you except give you a bonus to related skills. I have done quite a few cha 10 party diplomats (including the beguiler I am currently running) and in my experience the small bonus from cha does not help a whole lot. Diplomacy is going to be crazy anyhow, and glibness means that your natural cha when bluffing is almost irrelevant.
#17 frosthammer Mar 09, 2007 22:27:43	Where is Mindsight from? I'm looking through the Feats of Lord of Madness but I can't find it.
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 09, 2007 23:18:12	UC: I just don't think the build would be much fun 1-20, and am not sure it's actually as powerful as you think it is, qualified by my limited experience playing an almost straight-up beguiler. Mostly it's not a strong beguiler build, as it gives up most of their cool stuff for warlock stuff, and spends every feat but fey power patching up the dual progression, (practiced spellcaster, able learner) or getting +5 DR, some saves, some 1/day SLAs. Maybe my DM is just sadistic, but anyone (well, mostly the lock) who relies on flight to stay out of combat usually gets owned by full spellcasters and their well-informed archers. Mostly, I don't think what the build gains (warlock stuff, spellblast/greatreach) outweighs slowing down casting progression by 3 levels and giving up all the beguiler goodies. And I'm not sure there's much synergy between the beguiling and the locking. In short, I think you oversold the build a bit. Also, the straight beguiler doesn't require "court drama" games to be awesome. It's a solid class. With that said, here's my attempt at diluting the beguiler with grr argh blow stuff up-itude: Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 2/ Fiend-blooded (HoH) 9/ Prc X / Fiend-blooded 1 req:rp a fiendish bloodline, non-good alignment race: humanoid, not already a half-fiend blah feats: eschew materials and blood calls to blood (+2 saves vs evil outsiders) You trade skills, two sorely missed low level feats, and some hp for 'strictly better advanced learning' Fiendish Sorcery: the ability to add to your spells known an enchantment, illusion, necromancy, or fire spell off any list. Fiend-blooded gets this every even level, so pretty much whenever you get a new level of spells, you get some fiendish sorcery for that level too. For level 9 spells you need to delay FS because it's the only level that doesn't advance casting. Other goodies: stat increases, for when you roll all odds, a little poison and energy resistance, the ability to add your fiend-blooded level +cha to a spell's damage a couple times per day (not sure how/whether that'd work with per round damage spells like power word pain, or legion of sentinels). I don't really know which spells to grab with FS, beyond Irresistible Dance off bard 6 (fun with legion of sentinels hehe). Some of the domain only domination type spells could be cool. Feats might go something like this if magic > skills. It's really up to you. 1 Esch mat, BctB 3 sculpt spell 6 mindsight 9 rapid metamagic 12 metamagic feat 15 mo' metamagic 18 weapon focus Grabbing fiery burst would be fine if you need to blow stuff up for free as a standard action. The build isn't as awesome as Shadowcraft, but at least you don't have to be a gnome. EDIT: mindsight is on page 126 of Lords of Madness, for some reason not in the feat section (maybe cuz it's good?). Also I forgot to say that I agree w/ Arem_K about the stat priorities, even though my build benefits a bit more from cha.
#19 amatulic Mar 10, 2007 11:24:38	Nice Handbook. I have to say I disagree with your stat priorities though. ... The beguiler's flavor suggests that you should be heavily into the social skills and therefore it seems like you should pump charisma. However, charisma, unlike every other stat in the game, does nothing for you except give you a bonus to related skills. I have done quite a few cha 10 party diplomats (including the beguiler I am currently running) and in my experience the small bonus from cha does not help a whole lot. Diplomacy is going to be crazy anyhow, and glibness means that your natural cha when bluffing is almost irrelevant. Those are good points. However, with my beguiler I'm not thrilled about giving up the extra Bluff and Diplomacy I get by prioritizing Cha higher. It depends on your character concept; I happen to be using a race that sucks at Concentration. I know this isn't optimal for a beguiler, but the DM's suggestion to play a kender is an opportunity I couldn't pass up, so I have to optimize my build to around the racial strengths and weaknesses. Anyway, I just modified the Abilities section of the Handbook in consideration of what you wrote, while keeping the option open to swap Con and Cha priorities. -A
#20 frosthammer Mar 18, 2007 3:07:38	A coupleof things: 1) You can't learn Modify Memory because it is a Bardspell, not a Wizard spell. 2) Is it worth it to take Extraordinary Concentration to be able maintain a spell and cast other spells at the same time? For example, you are invisible, and you cast a Minor Image of yourself. Then,you cast Mindless rage on an opponent, and basically you concentrate on maintaining the image and keep having theenemy attack the image while you can go off and cast other spells. May want to take Skill Focus (Concentration) as well since it's so darned hard to make the concentration check.
#21 friendofthedork Mar 18, 2007 5:57:33	Another wonderful Beguiler build that gives them a bit of damage and survivability to work with is the: Human Beguiler 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurg 10/(any last 3) Feats 1st Able Learner 1st Fey Heritage 3rd Fey Skin 6th Fey Power 9th Fey Legacy 12th Fey Presence 15th Extra Spell/Invocation 18th Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) Able learner allows you to keep your rogue-ish skills maxed while gaining levels in the warlock/Eldritch Theurg. The Fey feat chain is really all about Fey Skin which grants you DR x+y+1/cold iron where x equals the number of other feats you have that have a prerequisite of Fey Heritage and y equals the amount of DR y/cold iron you have from any other source. Yep, that is right, this will stack with the DR you get from both Warlock and Eld. Theurg to equal perma DR 10/cold iron. Couple this with fey power which is boosts the DCs of enchantment spells/abiliities and invocations by 1 (yes, it is spell focus: enchantment +1). Lather up both of these feats with healthy doses of once per day usable spell like abiliites like confusion, dimension door, summon nature's ally V, charm monster, deep slumber, and disguise self and you are starting to really get something out of this feat chain. For Invocations I would go with: Least See the Unseen Baleful Utterance SIckening Blast Lesser Eldritch Chain Fell Flight Curse of Despair Greater Hindering Blast Nightmares Made Real Chilling Tentacles Dark Eldritch Doom If you haven't read Nightmares Made Real, you need to. It was made for a character like this. Pop out, cast a spell, and re-hide while people are staring at you. Good stuff. I might even pick up walk unseen if you really want to be invisable most of the time. I think this combo has tons of potential and should be added to any beguiler guide. Hey, great! I've made such a character myself, although I didn't take the Heritage chain feats. Although I did lose out on 4th level spells for awhile, getting a reliable attack form made a huge difference while adventuring in the Abyss. My skills are somewhat nerfed, but not tremendously. My HPs are ok, losing out on cloaked casting etc. doesen't matter to me (seldom used it before). In order to survive, I've taken the battle caster feats and now move around in my mithral full plate, giving me decent AC. I also got PBS and precise shot, so when not buffing allies, debuffing enemies or using enchantments, I can fly into the air and fire away at 250' for 4d6 (at 10th level) at no penalty, and even add an area affect spell to the blast!
#22 frosthammer Mar 18, 2007 13:39:53	How are you hidin, sneaking, and other stuff in Full Plate?
#23 zombiegleemax Mar 18, 2007 16:00:10	"2 levels of Prestige Bard (UA) costs you a caster level, but in return you get access to dozens of extra spells, compatible skill synergies, improved Reflex and Will saves, bardic lore, 2 uses of bardic music, +1 base attack bonus, and +1 caster level. You do need Perform ranks, however." What do you mean by "extra spells?" I just see you getting beguiler spells. Explain please
#24 amatulic Mar 19, 2007 1:37:21	"2 levels of Prestige Bard (UA) costs you a caster level, but in return you get access to dozens of extra spells...." What do you mean by "extra spells?" I just see you getting beguiler spells. Explain please I guess it's a bit ambiguous; you don't actually get access to spells not on the beguiler's spell list. The description says the Prestige Bard casts spells at +2 caster level. This would mean that you get access to two additional levels of beguiler spells beyond your actual level -- which is a lot of spells. Thanks for pointing this out; I just changed the wording in the article to remove the ambiguity. 1) You can't learn Modify Memory because it is a Bardspell, not a Wizard spell. 2) Is it worth it to take Extraordinary Concentration to be able maintain a spell and cast other spells at the same time? Modify Memory is from the Enchantment school, so that spell should be available to a beguiler when he gets Advanced Learning, no? I think Extraordinary Concentration would be a good feat, but you can never get enough feats. At higher levels, there's a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel that lets you do almost the same thing, but without the Concentration bonus. It's a trade-off. -A
#25 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 19, 2007 3:32:56	Shadow Adept PrC is actually very easy to get into: it requires a metamagic feat (you get still and silentspell) and 'shadowweave magic', which is a blessing on it's own. It just requires you to spend 8 ranks on 'knowledge arcana' and 'spellcraft' , not my two most favorit skills. Oh, and it's from PGtF not FRCS
#26 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 19, 2007 3:40:01	My compliments for this thread....keep up the good work. For more 'advanced learning' ideas, do check the 'old' beguiler handbook. It's not that orderly, but within it 300 orso posts you get alot of good ideas. Where is Mindsight from? I'm looking through the Feats of Lord of Madness but I can't find it. it's not in the featlist...it is in one of those 'boxed text' thingies. I don't have the book, but it's described in the 'wierd tentacle creature'- part (hope that helps ;) )
#27 Richmud Mar 19, 2007 7:50:26	I guess it's a bit ambiguous; you don't actually get access to spells not on the beguiler's spell list. The description says the Prestige Bard casts spells at +2 caster level. This would mean that you get access to two additional levels of beguiler spells beyond your actual level -- which is a lot of spells. Thanks for pointing this out; I just changed the wording in the article to remove the ambiguity. An in crease in caster level does not mean more spells it just means the spells are slightly more powerful. However there is this: The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.
#28 zorbin Mar 19, 2007 9:36:56	EQUIPMENT Besides the usual nonmagical adventuring gear, the following wondrous items are good to have: Amulet of Health +2 (or any other Con-enhancing item) - improves your HP and adds +1 bonus to concentration checks. Boots of Striding and Springing - good for increasing the speed of small races. Much of its cost is due to the +5 bonus to Jump checks; if you don't need this, commision a wizard to create simply "Boots of Striding" for 2,000 gp for just the +10 speed benefit. Headband of Intelligence +2 (or any other Int-enhancing item) - for more spells per day. Heward's Handy Haversack - backpack to hold all your tools and treasure. Regardless of what you put in it, the pack always weighs 5 lb (important with Str as your dump stat), and retrieving anything from it doesn't cost a move action because what you want is always magically on top. It's a bargain at 2,000 gp. Veil of Allure (Sandstorm) - Adds +2 to your enchantment save DC and Cha-based supernatural abilities; but it's expensive at 14,000 gp. Nice Handbook (the "old" one is good too...). I would recommend a magic item progression list, similar to the Rogue Handbook, where there are character levels and priorities for items. Many of the items in the Rogue Handbook would apply to the Beguiler but some do not... Cheers,
#29 frosthammer Mar 19, 2007 13:01:33	I guess it's a bit ambiguous; you don't actually get access to spells not on the beguiler's spell list. The description says the Prestige Bard casts spells at +2 caster level. This would mean that you get access to two additional levels of beguiler spells beyond your actual level -- which is a lot of spells. Thanks for pointing this out; I just changed the wording in the article to remove the ambiguity. Modify Memory is from the Enchantment school, so that spell should be available to a beguiler when he gets Advanced Learning, no? I think Extraordinary Concentration would be a good feat, but you can never get enough feats. At higher levels, there's a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel that lets you do almost the same thing, but without the Concentration bonus. It's a trade-off. -A Nope, I don't think so. It makes sense thematically, and I'd house-rule it that way, but by RAW, Modify Memory is not a Wizard Spell available to Beguiler.
#30 amatulic Mar 19, 2007 13:07:04	Where is Mindsight from? I'm looking through the Feats of Lord of Madness but I can't find it. I put the page number in my feat list in this Handbook: LoM p126. Oh, and regarding your message just before this one: you're right, beguilers can take only Wizard spells. I'll remove Modify Memory from the list (which needs some re-work anyway; I'm open to suggestions). My compliments for this thread....keep up the good work. For more 'advanced learning' ideas, do check the 'old' beguiler handbook. It's not that orderly, but within it 300 orso posts you get alot of good ideas. Thanks for the compliment. Yes the 'old' handbook is good, but disorganized. The top article in this thread is my attempt to make sense of it. It's a work in progress. Good ideas there and in this thread I intend to incorporate into the main article to have all the good stuff in one convenient place. And thanks for the correction on the Shadow Adept PrC earlier; I just fixed it. An increase in caster level does not mean more spells it just means the spells are slightly more powerful. However there is this: The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available. Thanks for the clarification (I'm learning as I go along, I'm not an expert). I don't think that taking a level of Prestige Bard suddenly expands your spell list to include all bard spells, would it? The Prestige Bard description says you continue in the progression of your original spell class. A beguiler can only expand his spell list through Advanced Learning. Hmm, maybe I'll just remove all that stuff about more spells; taking a level or two of Prestige Bard does bestow other benefits that might make it worthwhile. I would recommend a magic item progression list, similar to the Rogue Handbook, where there are character levels and priorities for items. Many of the items in the Rogue Handbook would apply to the Beguiler but some do not... Excellent suggestion. I'll have a look at the Rogue Handbook later this week and see what I can incorporate in. You are correct, the items I listed aren't in any particular order and many aren't within the reach of a low-level character. Any suggestions? -A
#31 Richmud Mar 19, 2007 20:45:58	Thanks for the clarification (I'm learning as I go along, I'm not an expert). I don't think that taking a level of Prestige Bard suddenly expands your spell list to include all bard spells, would it? The Prestige Bard description says you continue in the progression of your original spell class. A beguiler can only expand his spell list through Advanced Learning. Hmm, maybe I'll just remove all that stuff about more spells; taking a level or two of Prestige Bard does bestow other benefits that might make it worthwhile. Well as far as I can tell it appears to mean you get all spells in the PHB that only a bard can cast. Which means you get modify memory and a few others (the other impressive one being glibness but you already get that) but not identify or the cure spells.
#32 Arem_K Mar 20, 2007 2:12:34	Well as far as I can tell it appears to mean you get all spells in the PHB that only a bard can cast. Which means you get modify memory and a few others (the other impressive one being glibness but you already get that) but not identify or the cure spells. Speaking of glibness, I find that it is important for the party face to always keep a potion of it at all times, even if the face can cast the spell. You might have to do some very sudden and very important bluffing, and the guards are going to be very suspicious if you wave your hands around before asking their questions. Taking a sip from from your "water bottle" is probably okay though...
#33 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 20, 2007 6:49:58	an idea for an item: "Colar of Umbral Metamormp" from ToB: it gives you the 'dark-creature' template for (about ) 10.000 gp from top of my head; It gives you 60ft darkvision, +10ft move, a Hide bonus and resistance to Cold. i think it also fits the beguiler thematically well
#34 Richmud Mar 20, 2007 9:23:28	an idea for an item: "Colar of Umbral Metamormp" from ToB: it gives you the 'dark-creature' template for (about ) 10.000 gp from top of my head; It gives you 60ft darkvision, +10ft move, a Hide bonus and resistance to Cold. i think it also fits the beguiler thematically well You forgot the best part, it gives hide in plain sight
#35 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 21, 2007 2:20:30	'spellcasting prodigy' from FRCS is a good one too. Almost all spells from the beguiler list are save-or-die: it either works or not, thus making it paramount that your DC's are high enough. spellcasting prodigy (which must be taken on 1st level) makes your prima spellcasting ability (INT) 2 points higher for the sake of DC en the amount of bonus spells: so tat a +1 DC on all your spells, ...that's even beter than 'shadow weave magic' (although SWM also increase your level for overcoming SR by 1). EDIT: I realise now, that that's probably a 3rd ed rule. i don't think the DC increase still applies
#36 zombiegleemax Mar 21, 2007 9:09:02	'spellcasting prodigy' from FRCS is a good one too. Almost all spells from the beguiler list are save-or-die: it either works or not, thus making it paramount that your DC's are high enough. spellcasting prodigy (which must be taken on 1st level) makes your prima spellcasting ability (INT) 2 points higher for the sake of DC en the amount of bonus spells: so tat a +1 DC on all your spells, ...that's even beter than 'shadow weave magic' (although SWM also increase your level for overcoming SR by 1). EDIT: I realise now, that that's probably a 3rd ed rule. i don't think the DC increase still applies This feat was modify in Players guide to Faerun to affect only your bonus spell so no DC boost
#37 zombiegleemax Mar 21, 2007 9:11:32	Speaking of glibness, I find that it is important for the party face to always keep a potion of it at all times, even if the face can cast the spell. You might have to do some very sudden and very important bluffing, and the guards are going to be very suspicious if you wave your hands around before asking their questions. Taking a sip from from your "water bottle" is probably okay though... Its impossible to create a potion of glibness. Spell with target "Personnal" can't be use to do potion.
#38 amatulic Mar 25, 2007 11:41:51	an idea for an item: "Colar of Umbral Metamormp" from ToB: it gives you the 'dark-creature' template for (about ) 10.000 gp I'm not finding that in Tome of Battle. What page? Its impossible to create a potion of glibness. Spell with target "Personnal" can't be use to do potion. Well, potion of glibness appears to be an exception: DMG p114 mentions a potion of glibness in the list of the NPC Bard's possessions, even though p207 says that spells with a range of personal can't be made into potions. EDIT: Wizards Customer Service responded to my query about potion of glibness: The entry in the description of the Bard NPC is an error, thanks for pointing that out. I will submit this for errata. EDIT: By the way LucRivNor, I just realized you created the original Beguiler's Handbook thread on which I have based this article. Great job, I was real happy to find your thread. I hope I can do justice to your original thread by organizing my handbook into a more cohesive whole. I want to go light on the builds but try to describe other useful options in one big article rather than a long thread. -A
#39 prototype00 Mar 25, 2007 11:56:04	ToM (TM) heh. prototype00
#40 tetujin Mar 25, 2007 19:21:13	Sandshaper, IMHO is my favorite class to go into after Beguiler. Gives you a bunch of new spell options in addition to the fun Sandshaping stuff. I dare say it's completely worth the loss in caster level.
#41 midgard_in_ruin Mar 25, 2007 19:54:56	[*]Loredelver (RoD) costs you a caster level, but offers interesting alternate class features without losing skill points. If you want to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist, you may want this. Built around his idea some time ago. Fleshed out, this is what Imanaged to do with it. Alternative Lyrist Old Illumian (UurKrau) Druid 1/Beguiler 6/Lore Delver 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Total ECL: 20 Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 Suggested stats: STR: 6 (8) (+1) DEX: 10 (13) CON: 13 (15) (+1) INT: 18 (14) (+2) WIS: 13 (10) (+1) CHA: 14 (12) free points left: 0 Feats: 1. Subtle Sigil (Races of Destiny pg.154) 3. Spell Focus (enchantment) Bglr5. Silent spell 6. Heighten Spell 9. Earth Sense (Races of Stone pg.138) 12. Earth Spell (Races of Stone pg. 138) 15. Metamagic School Focus (enchantment) (Complete Mage pg.45) 18. Greater Spell Focus: (enchantment) Suggested Equipment: Belt of Magnificence +6 (200,000 gp) (Miniatures Handbook pg.42) Rod of Shadowbending (9,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg.129) Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (3,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg. 132) Cloak of Comfort +5 (27,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg 132) Glamered +5 Mithril Breastplate (32,050 gp) (DMG) Ring of Invisibility (20,000 gp (DMG) Ring of freedom of movement (40,000 gp) (DMG) Tome of Clear thought +2 (55,000 gp) (DMG) Boots of Teleportation (49,000 gp) (DMG) Bag of Holding type IV (10,000 gp) (DMG) +1 Buckler of Greater Silent Moves (34,915 gp) (DMG) Total cost: 479,965 gp gp Left money: 280,035 gp Build text: Druid caster level 13; Casts up to 6th level Beguiler caster level 20; Casts up to 9th level spells Bardic Knowledge level 13 Cloaked casting (+1 DC) Armored mage Trapfinding Evasion Detect magic at will Tremorsense 20ft Spontanious summoning Just for completeness
#42 amatulic Mar 26, 2007 21:07:39	About Collar of Umbral Metamorph (TM): it gives you the 'dark-creature' template for (about) 10.000 gp ... from top of my head; It gives you 60ft darkvision, +10ft move, a Hide bonus and resistance to Cold. You forgot the best part, it gives hide in plain sight I added this item to the main article, but I personally don't see much value in it. Isn't it more cost-effective to apply the Dark Creature template to your character and gain the same advantages? The Dark Creature template costs only a +1 level adjustment, which you buy back at a cost of 3000 XP (essentially playing ECL 3 twice). That's far more reasonable than paying 10,000 gp, especially because low XP self-corrects in a party of higher-level characters; lower-level characters gain XP faster and eventually catch up. Low wealth, however, never self-corrects unless your allies let you keep more treasure. Of course, you can't use the Dark Creature template if you must start with a 1st level character, but at that level you have no assurance of obtaining this 10,000 gp item, ever. And even if you do, it'll happen at a much higher level and you'll have lost the advantage of having the Dark Creature template at lower levels. The only real advantage I can see to buying this item is if your alignment is Good and/or you need Exalted feats. In that case you can't acquire the template, but you can still use the item. -A
#43 widow Mar 27, 2007 0:43:10	There is a feat in the dragon compendium (no books at the moment, so I am not sure which dragon mag had the feat originially) called Song of the Damned. It lets you affect intellegent undead with enchantment spells and has an adjustment of +1 spell level. It could be useful if you are in a campaign with lots of undead (or to prevent the DM from throwing lots of undead at your). I am not sure if it was mentioned, but there is also the Eldrich Master PrC in dragon 287 I think. After 4 levels it lets you add another classes spell list to your own. Archivist would be a nice choice for access to all divine spells. The down side is it does not give caster progression, just spell level advancement. On the plus side at level 3 you learn one spell 1 level higher than you can currently cast (the level changes as your spells available changes) and a bonus feat. So you can still have 1 9th level spell as Beguiler 16, EM 4. Also there is the Faire Island Initiate feat in dragon 319 that lets you use Int for hitpoints instead of Con at all levels. A nice way to eliminate the need for a atribute.
#44 amatulic Mar 27, 2007 2:06:03	There is a feat in the dragon compendium (no books at the moment, so I am not sure which dragon mag had the feat originially) called Song of the Damned. It lets you affect intellegent undead with enchantment spells and has an adjustment of +1 spell level. That's Song of the Dead, DR312 p37. It seems similar to the bardic Requiem feat from Libris Mortis. I'm not sure how it fits a beguiler, though. Any spell cast with that feat becomes a Necromancy spell, which is a school prohibited to beguilers. The DM would have to decide if it's OK. Also there is the Faire Island Initiate feat in dragon 319 that lets you use Int for hitpoints instead of Con at all levels. A nice way to eliminate the need for a atribute. That's a good one. I've been avoiding Dragon Magazine stuff for this Handbook because I know a lot of DMs who ban Dragon material as being too overpowered. However, selected things here and there are good to mention! I don't have issue 319. Do you have a description of that feat, its prerequisites, restrictions, etc.? I'm happy to add it to the list, and this would really help the beguiler I'm creating now (with some rather sucky ability rolls: 8, 8, 13, 13, 15, 16). -A
#45 prototype00 Mar 27, 2007 2:57:29	The Dark Creature template costs only a +1 level adjustment, which you buy back at a cost of 3000 XP (essentially playing ECL 3 twice). That's far more reasonable than paying 10,000 gp, especially because low XP self-corrects in a party of higher-level characters; lower-level characters gain XP faster and eventually catch up. Low wealth, however, never self-corrects unless your allies let you keep more treasure. You use the term *buy-back* is that in core? Or is it merely a variant rule found in unearthed arcana that might have trouble getting by some DMs? In that case you can basically suck up being ECL +1 for your entire adventuring career. Lesson: Item more likely to get pass finicky core oriented DMs. prototype00
#46 amatulic Mar 27, 2007 9:29:01	You use the term *buy-back* is that in core? Or is it merely a variant rule found in unearthed arcana that might have trouble getting by some DMs? In that case you can basically suck up being ECL +1 for your entire adventuring career. Heh... anything in this Handbook may have trouble getting by some DMs. My purpose is to present options; what you can actually do is between you and your DM. The buyback procedure is described in Unearthed Arcana and a similar procedure is described in Races of the Dragon p70 for playing a level-adjusted race starting from level 1. With either procedure, you are forced to play through each level in your ECL. This can be done two ways: Buying back the LA with XP and re-earning the XP (UA version), or taking levels in your "racial class" instead of your chosen class a number of times equal to the level adjustment (RDr version). I'd argue that most DMs find it reasonable to force you to play through 1 extra level without advancing in your chosen class, to eliminate a +1 level adjustment. The UA version is preferable (DM permitting) because you end up with a lower-level character with 0 level adjustment, and you'll eventually recover the lost XP because low level characters earn it faster. I just added a note clarifying this to the Races section of the Handbook. Lesson: Item more likely to get pass finicky core oriented DMs. Counterpoint: A finicky core-oriented DM isn't likely to let you take a non-core item that uses a non-core spell effect to grant benefits of a non-core creature type, either. -A
#47 widow Mar 27, 2007 9:47:53	That's a good one. I've been avoiding Dragon Magazine stuff for this Handbook because I know a lot of DMs who ban Dragon material as being too overpowered. However, selected things here and there are good to mention! I don't have issue 319. Do you have a description of that feat, its prerequisites, restrictions, etc.? I'm happy to add it to the list, and this would really help the beguiler I'm creating now (with some rather sucky ability rolls: 8, 8, 13, 13, 15, 16). -A It is a greyhawk regional feat that must be taken at level 1. So it depends if you can get that buy, but the dragon compendium has changed other grey hawk feats into general feats. The feat itself does a number of different things depending on what kind of ritual you perform with it (the best effect is Int for hit points). Techniquely you have to perform the ritual with someone else that has the feat for it to work. Once complete you never have to perform the ritual again unless you want a different effect under the feat. A great feat for casters and undead. There is also a monk feat in that issue and the dragon compendium that lets you switch the monk AC bonus to Int instead of wisdom, depending on how much dipping you want to do.
#48 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 28, 2007 1:54:07	I'm not finding that in Tome of Battle. What page? It's Tome of Magic (ToM), sorry
#49 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 28, 2007 2:03:05	Suggested Equipment: Rod of Shadowbending (9,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg.129) Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (3,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg. 132) Glamered +5 Mithril Breastplate (32,050 gp) (DMG) These items are all worthy for this Beguiler handbook. Ring of Invisibility (20,000 gp (DMG) What's the use in that? You can cast invisibility numerous time starting from level 4. 20.000gp is money you can use better another way. Ring of freedom of movement (40,000 gp) (DMG) Bag of Holding type IV (10,000 gp) (DMG) These are items that are usefull fo a lot of character, not just the beguiler. To the OP; in the 'Bunko's Bargain basement' are a lot of items that are really usefull for the Beguiler and are affordable. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=657626 there's a lot of pages, but they're worth it.
#50 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 28, 2007 2:08:48	Heh... anything in this Handbook may have trouble getting by some DMs. My purpose is to present options; what you can actually do is between you and your DM. Then I suggest you put this 'option' of the Collar of Umbral Metamorf in your handbook anyway. The Unearthed options are not granted that easily, at least not in our group. 10.000 for a item this usefull is worthy of a place in your book. Is what your saying, that an item already so cheap compared to it's gains, is supassed by the UA rules and therefore not worthy? ;) besides that, I don't *want* to be a 'darkcreature' all the time. Makes me all creapy, which interferes with the charming young lad I want to play;) An item that is switched on and of when I want it to, fits my needs perfectly.
#51 amatulic Mar 28, 2007 11:03:31	Suggested Equipment: Rod of Shadowbending (9,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg.129) Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (3,000 gp) (Complete Mage pg. 132) Glamered +5 Mithril Breastplate (32,050 gp) (DMG) These items are all worthy for this Beguiler handbook. I'll have to look up those CM ones (don't have the books handy). Glamered armor? Doesn't that just make your armor look like clothing? I suppose that might be useful in social situations, but is there any other useful purpose to it? As to the Bag of Holding: Heward's Handy Haversack is only 2,000 gp, and in past games I've never been able to fill one up completely. The Haversack has the added benefit of letting you retrieve things from it as a free action, unlike the Bag. If there are really big things to carry, then a type IV bag would be appropriate if your party doesn't already have someone better suited to hauling stuff around. I can't see that a beguiler needs a lot of storage space. To the OP; in the 'Bunko's Bargain basement' are a lot of items that are really usefull for the Beguiler and are affordable. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=657626 Thanks. I admit to having a bias for cheaper items, because I'm starting my beguiler at low level. Also I am fairly certain that expensive items I desire won't be available once I introduce the character into the game. I suggest you put this 'option' of the Collar of Umbral Metamorf in your handbook anyway. Yes, I did put it in anyway, right after I posted my mild objection. Even so, I still find the Dark Creature template more attractive than the Collar of Umbral Metamorph; the template is "affordable" for a low-level character but the item isn't. Of course, the template should fit the theme of your character before you acquire it (the template doesn't fit my beguiler, so I can't take it, but I can't buy the item either at 5th level). -A
#52 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 29, 2007 1:33:26	I'll have to look up those CM ones (don't have the books handy). Glamered armor? Doesn't that just make your armor look like clothing? I suppose that might be useful in social situations, but is there any other useful purpose to it? No, that's probably it. But the thing is, the beguiler is all about social situations....or starting a combat in a way that suits *you*. Glamoured is cheap (I think +1500) and makes you Mithril breastplate (the best a beguiler can get) even more subtle and the beguiler more versatile. That's another thing about the beguiler: versatility. A s to the Bag of Holding: Heward's Handy Haversack is only 2,000 gp, and in past games I've never been able to fill one up completely. The Haversack has the added benefit of letting you retrieve things from it as a free action, unlike the Bag. If there are really big things to carry, then a type IV bag would be appropriate if your party doesn't already have someone better suited to hauling stuff around. I can't see that a beguiler needs a lot of storage space. I understand the argument of the 'sack' versus the 'bag'. You are probably right. I don't like the idea that i need another groupmemember to carry my stuff around. I want my own stuff near me in any situation. Besides that, beguilers are'nt that strong and many are small (size)... they're not good at crarrying stuff around. Thanks. I admit to having a bias for cheaper items, because I'm starting my beguiler at low level. Also I am fairly certain that expensive items I desire won't be available once I introduce the character into the game. Your comment puzzles me. When you're low level, you *do* want to have acces to cheap but effective items. There are several items in this list that can be bought from 1000 till a couple of thousend gold pieces. What's not to like. reading this list also gives you a sharper idea where to look for. It's sound advice. Yes, I did put it in anyway, right after I posted my mild objection. Even so, I still find the Dark Creature template more attractive than the Collar of Umbral Metamorph; the template is "affordable" for a low-level character but the item isn't. Of course, the template should fit the theme of your character before you acquire it (the template doesn't fit my beguiler, so I can't take it, but I can't buy the item either at 5th level). -A I've got a new idea that might help you: why not categorise the items for different levels? Low level: 1-4 mid level: 5-9 higher level: 10-14 High level: 15- 20 Epic : 20+ .... It's just a thought.
#53 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 29, 2007 1:43:37	another item that is worth noting, is the 'shadowy diadem' from Dragon magic (or maybe races ot dragon). For 4400gp it gives you concealment and protection versus undead energydrain as a swift action. 'hand of the mage (DMG)' let's you be the prankster you want to be for 900gp. Advanced Learning spell choices Distract Assailant (SC) - Even though this spell is only 1st level, it can be cast as a swift action to render an opponent flat-footed in the same round you cast another spell. Useful for getting more uses out of higher level spells that would otherwise be consumed by casting invisibility. Heroism (PH) - If opponents constantly save against your spells, you may as well buff up an ally. Power word and pain spells (Races of the Dragon) to deal damage at early levels. Ray of Dizziness (SC) - Target can't take full-round actions, and doesn't get any saving throw. These Ray spells are useful with the Chain Spell metamagic feat. Ray of Stupidity (SC) - Target takes 1d4+1 Int damage, and doesn't get a saving throw. Useful against Int-based spellcasters such as wizards. Shadow evocation / conjuration spellsDistract assailant Greater invisibility Heroism Programmed ammnesia Shadow ribbons Spectral weapon I'm not that enthousiastic about the 'heroism' spell. When you want to buff, buff with 'haste'. Filling in the advanced learning slots with 'shadow spells' is always wise for a beguiler, who is dependent from many mindaffecting spells. Some extra suggestions: - Net of Shadows (1st, MoF and SpC): blanket you enemies in shadows, reducing their vision till 5ft and giving them concealment (coudl also be usefull for hiding you allies) - Shadow Well (4th, MoF and SpC): send an enemy to the plane of shadow (effectively taking him out of combat) and when he returns he might be frightened so you can finish it off. (both spells were reduced in power in the conversion to SpC)
#54 pale_enchantress Mar 29, 2007 2:15:42	You list greater invisability as a advanced learning option but dosn't beguiler get that spell anyway?
#55 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 29, 2007 3:36:19	You list greater invisability as a advanced learning option but dosn't beguiler get that spell anyway? I've got the feeling that there are some 'errors' in this list from Amatulic. Besides that, I'm wondering what the levels these suggested spells are. Amatulic, can you fix that? Ray of Dizziness (SC) - Target can't take full-round actions, and doesn't get any saving throw. These Ray spells are useful with the Chain Spell metamagic feat. Rays are probably a nice supplement to the Beguiler spellarray. When the save is too high, hit them with a ray (ranged touch). After that, you don;'t have to worry about their saves. What is the level of this spell? What is the spelllevel adjustment for Chain Spell metamagic ? (in other words, when will you be able to cast it in the suggested fashion?)....just to bad that Ray of Dizzininess most likely is 'mind affecting'
#56 amatulic Mar 29, 2007 13:36:00	Lots of stuff to answer here.... ...the beguiler is all about social situations....or starting a combat in a way that suits *you*. Glamoured is cheap (I think +1500) and makes you Mithril breastplate (the best a beguiler can get) even more subtle and the beguiler more versatile. That's another thing about the beguiler: versatility. I understand versatility. What I don't understand is how one would use glamered armor versus normal armor in a combat situation. At least in the games I've played, enemies don't care what armor I'm wearing, and glamer certainly won't have any effect on their ability to attack me. I admit to having a bias for cheaper items, because I'm starting my beguiler at low level. Also I am fairly certain that expensive items I desire won't be available once I introduce the character into the game. Your comment puzzles me. When you're low level, you *do* want to have acces to cheap but effective items. There are several items in this list that can be bought from 1000 till a couple of thousend gold pieces. What's not to like. Sorry, I wasn't clear that I answerd in the context of the 10,000 gp Collar of Umbral Metamorph. My low level character can't afford it, and once introduced into the game, will never acquire it. Other items in my Handbook are also too expensive. That's why I have a bias to low level items, and I was happy that you referred me to Caelic's thread about "more bang for the gp" items. I've got a new idea that might help you: why not categorise the items for different levels? Excellent idea. I imagine it would be a table. Say you're starting out as a 5th level character, your starting gold is 9,000 gp, and you can't spend more than 25% (2,250) of your net worth on any single item. So for 5th level, the table would list the good 2,000 gp items. I like it. The only problem I see is that starting wealth and cost limit per item has many house-rule variations (I think the 25%, for example, is our own house rule; I'll have to look this up). another item that is worth noting, is the 'shadowy diadem' from Dragon magic (or maybe races ot dragon). For 4400gp it gives you concealment and protection versus undead energydrain as a swift action. 'hand of the mage (DMG)' let's you be the prankster you want to be for 900gp. Shadowy Diadem is a 3.0 item (DR308 p41) so I'm hesitant to include it without a note - the 3.0 pricing rules are different from the 3.5 pricing rules, so I'd want to reverse-engineer the price calculation. I note that Deathward armor gives similar protection at higher cost. I added Hand of the Mage to the list though. EDIT: The 3.0 Shadowy Diadem from DR308 isn't what you were referring to. That one costs 69,000 gp! I found it in Dragon Magic, p103. I'll add it to the list of items. I'm not that enthousiastic about the 'heroism' spell. When you want to buff, buff with 'haste'. Filling in the advanced learning slots with 'shadow spells' is always wise for a beguiler, who is dependent from many mindaffecting spells. Some extra suggestions: - Net of Shadows (1st, MoF and SpC): blanket you enemies in shadows, reducing their vision till 5ft and giving them concealment (coudl also be usefull for hiding you allies) - Shadow Well (4th, MoF and SpC): send an enemy to the plane of shadow (effectively taking him out of combat) and when he returns he might be frightened so you can finish it off. I added these, except for haste which is a transmutation spell unavailable to a beguiler. You list greater invisability as a advanced learning option but dosn't beguiler get that spell anyway? Whoops. You're right. Fixed. I've got the feeling that there are some 'errors' in this list from Amatulic. Much material in this Handbook is compiled from other beguiler threads, and I haven't error-checked everything. I appreciate you guys pointing out deficiencies. I do fix things. After all, I want to use the handbook as my own reference too. In particular, the item list and Advanced Learning sections haven't received much attention from me so far. As I said at the beginning of the Handbook, it's a work in progress. Besides that, I'm wondering what the levels these suggested spells are. Amatulic, can you fix that? Rays are probably a nice supplement to the Beguiler spellarray. When the save is too high, hit them with a ray (ranged touch). After that, you don't have to worry about their saves. What is the level of this spell? What is the spelllevel adjustment for Chain Spell metamagic ? (in other words, when will you be able to cast it in the suggested fashion?).... Yes, yes! Aargh! So much work.... Please be patient. I can only answer messages and do web searches during the day, but my books are at home so I can't add details from them except during an hour or two of spare time in the evenings. I did just add the spell level adjustment information to the list of metamagic feats and added some other metamagic feats that seem to fit a beguiler. If you disagree with any of them, let me know. I still need to add the spell levels of the Advanced Learning spells. Also, if you want, you may send me email about specific corrections, fixes, and suggestions (because if you post about an error and I fix it, your post becomes obsolete). -A
#57 Richmud Mar 29, 2007 16:43:50	I understand versatility. What I don't understand is how one would use glamered armor versus normal armor in a combat situation. At least in the games I've played, enemies don't care what armor I'm wearing, and glamer certainly won't have any effect on their ability to attack me. Glamored armor is for social situations, particularly ones you fear will become combat situations as apposed to being beneficial in normal combat situations
#58 frosthammer Mar 29, 2007 19:58:24	Are there any ray spells that lower Wisom? I'd really love those.
#59 nicholas_the_paladin Mar 30, 2007 2:29:49	Lots of stuff to answer here.... I understand versatility. What I don't understand is how one would use glamered armor versus normal armor in a combat situation. At least in the games I've played, enemies don't care what armor I'm wearing, and glamer certainly won't have any effect on their ability to attack me. See the earlier post: it's good for social situation Sorry, I wasn't clear that I answerd in the context of the 10,000 gp Collar of Umbral Metamorph. My low level character can't afford it, and once introduced into the game, will never acquire it. Other items in my Handbook are also too expensive. That's why I have a bias to low level items, and I was happy that you referred me to Caelic's thread about "more bang for the gp" items. 10.000 isn't cheap, but it's attainable pretty early Excellent idea. I imagine it would be a table. Say you're starting out as a 5th level character, your starting gold is 9,000 gp, and you can't spend more than 25% (2,250) of your net worth on any single item. So for 5th level, the table would list the good 2,000 gp items. I like it. that is probably a house rule. We don't have anything like that. Some players just sell all there excess stuff in order to get that one item they want. The only problem I see is that starting wealth and cost limit per item has many house-rule variations (I think the 25%, for example, is our own house rule; I'll have to look this up). yup, it's your houserule. I have never heard anybody mention it before. I added these, except for haste which is a transmutation spell unavailable to a beguiler. uhm, it's on the beguiler spell list ;) In particular, the item list and Advanced Learning sections haven't received much attention from me so far. As I said at the beginning of the Handbook, it's a work in progress. that's okay. Yes, yes! Aargh! So much work.... Please be patient. I can only answer messages and do web searches during the day, but my books are at home so I can't add details from them except during an hour or two of spare time in the evenings. Don't worry. Nobody is pushing you. You're doing a great job. I like the book: it's layout is very good and you're very fast with maintaining it. Relax. We don't want another handbook that is 'dead' because it's founder couldn't take the pressure :P I have some more advanced learing suggestions: from races of the Dragon: 1st level: Powerword Pain: 1d6 dam/r 2nd: Powerword sickenend: nice 6th level: Powerword Nauseate: opponenet can't do much anymore and more.... When taking the "path of the pure beguiler"TM (levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9) 1st level spells - Net of Shadows (SpC): battlefield controll when blinding opponents, or when cast on your friends a way of hiding them - Powerword Pain (RoDr): 1d6 damage/round can be effective for quite some levels. 3rd level spells: - Shadow Binding (SpC) - Tasha's Hideous Laghter (PHB, 2nd level spell) - Powerword Sickened (RoDr, 2nd level spell) Why? I find the 3rd level slotts very usefull. THe 2nd level slots can use a boost 5th level spells: - Powerword Disable (RoDr) (this slot could be better though) 7th level spells: - Symbol of Stunning (PHB) - Maddening Whispers (SpC): it's even better than the Symbol, for it leaves you the * choice* (I think 4) what to so with your victims - Hiss of Sleep (SpC): takes only a V-component, very sneaky - POwerword Nausea (RoDr, 6th level spell): you effectively take out an opponent 9th level spells: - Programmed Amnesia (SpC): If you want to stay sneaky till the end, this spell will help a lot. No opponent will remember what you did to them (I found this slot the most difficult to fill) Or when taking 1 level dip in a spellcaster-SpC: (levels 1, 4, 6, 8 and 9) 1st level spells: - Net of Shadows (SpC): descibed above - Powerword Pain (RoDr): descibed above 4th level spells: - Shadow well: kick an opponent in the Shadowplane (makes the combat easier) and when he comes back all frightened, finish it off - or take "shadow conjuration": - I don't like the (iconic) Phantasmal Killer-spell, it takes you two saves (will ánd Fort) to kill your opponent. Shadow Well is easier. 6th level spells: - Powerword Nauseau: a stated above, a very effective spell 8th level spells: (you already have Powerword Stun, so a area effect spell will be helpfull) - Symbol of INsanity (PHB): take out a whol bunch of enemies, bye bye - Mass Charm Monster: be mister 'subtle' untill high level. Why fight if they're your friends. - Superior INvisibility (SpC): It wont work against True Seeing, but it makes you less vulnerable to rogues with keen ears or animals with Scent 9th level spells: - Programmed Amnesia (SpC): If you want to stay sneaky till the end, this spell will help a lot. No opponent will remember what you did to them feat: "Extra spell" It should be something that will be effective when your mindaffecting spells don't work on undead, oozes or constructs. BTW: an pretty easy PrC-dip for a good gebuiler is the 'visionary seeker' from the planar handbook. it requires 8 ranks in a knowledge....and must be introduced to the organisation. and some more 'older' ideas: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10068183&postcount=222
#60 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 03, 2007 1:19:42	The skill-tricks from Complete Scoundrell are a way to make the beguiler more effective and versatile: level 2: conceal spellcasting level 3: assume quirk level 5: group fake-out level 7: second impression level 9: swift concentration level 11: clarity of vision level 13:timely misdirection level 15: false theurgy the ones I underlined, are the one that I would take as fast as possible, since I think there worth it. The slkilltricks at 3rd and 7th level are for my social role as a beguiler, but might depend on your style. The last three tricks are nice to have, but not nescecary. I like False Theurgy (to mask your illusion spells against clever arcana casters), but don't like that I need to spend skillpoints on spellcraft.
#61 amatulic Apr 03, 2007 12:11:51	The skill-tricks from Complete Scoundrell are a way to make the beguiler more effective and versatile: Thanks, I added them. I still need to incorporate your suggestions on Advanced Learning spells. I've also reformatted the equipment list, although I'm not yet satisfied with its content. I need to go through the Bargain Basement thread and cull out the beguiler things. -A
#62 amatulic Apr 03, 2007 15:16:05	Are there any ray spells that lower Wisom? I'd really love those. I don't see any. I know the ray spells that target the physical abilities (Str, Dex, Con) are either Transmutation or Necromancy spells, so they wouldn't be available to a beguiler. There are non-ray spells that deal Wisdom damage, but they aren't available to a beguiler: Mind poison (MoF) deals Wisdom damage, but it's also a Necromancy spell. Overwhelming revelations (MoE) imposes a 2d6 penalty to Wisdom for a round, but it's Evocation. Love's Lament (SC p134) is an Enchantment spell that deals Wisdom damage, but it's a 3rd-level bard spell. Theoretically a beguiler could take levels of Prestige Bard to gain access to this spell. Sword of Conscience (BoED) also deals both Wisdom and Charisma damage, and it's an Enchantment spell, but unavailable to Sorcerers and Wizards (4th level Cleric spell), therefore also unavailable to beguilers. The Ray spells I can find for a beguiler would be sting ray (Dragon Annual #5 p24), ray of dizziness, ray of hope, and ray of stupidity -- that last one targets Int. -A
#63 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 04, 2007 1:26:23	Thanks, I added them. I still need to incorporate your suggestions on Advanced Learning spells. I've also reformatted the equipment list, although I'm not yet satisfied with its content. I need to go through the Bargain Basement thread and cull out the beguiler things. -A I'm willing to help, but I moved a week ago and can't find my notes (yet). About the skilltricks: I have to admit that I don't wholly understand the workings of 'surprise casting' (beguiler ability, effectively starting at lvl 6) in combo with 'group fake-out' (skilltrick). The skilltricks allows you to feint versus multiple opponents. Suprise casting allow you to feint in combat as a move action, but you have to be in melee. So how I see it is, that a beguiler uses a whip to be in melee from 15ft distance, uses 'group fakeout' to feint versus (lets say) 3 opponents, and uses an area spell to catch them with a +1 on his Spell-DC. But do all opponents have to be in reach of the whip? It says you have to be 'in melee'. So by the letter (of suprise spellcasting) you can be in melee with just one opponent...and still affect the rest that are further away with you area spell.
#64 zelck_dup Apr 05, 2007 14:33:02	I asked CustServe some questions regarding the horribly incomplete spell Legion of Sentinels: The spell Legion of Sentinels in PHB II seems to be missing some very important text. While some problems were addressed through an earlier e-mail by someone else (see http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10057202&postcount=221), I still have some questions regarding the spell. 1) Is the swordsmen's attack bonus equal to your caster level, or is it equal to your caster level + primary casting ability's modifier? 2) Can they make normal attacks, or can they only make attacks of opportunity? If they can make normal attacks, is it only 1 per round or do they treat your caster level as their BAB? 3) Can the spell be centered off the ground? If so, would the sentinels form a 10' sphere or a 10' circle? Suppose Bob the Beguiler is fighting Sam the Sorcerer. Bob readies an action to cast Legion of Sentinels centered on a corner of the square Sam's standing in when Sam casts a spell. Sam casts a spell, and Bob's Legion of Sentinels goes off. Sam, not seeing that coming, didn't cast defensively and provokes attacks of opportunities. 4) Does the sentinel in Sam's square get an AoO? Does he get a bonus for flanking? 5) How many AoOs would Sam take? 8? 7 (if the sentinel in Sam's square doesn't get an AoO)? 12 after accounting for the 4 swordsmen floating above Sam? Thanks for your help! They replied: 1)The swordsmen’s attacks are at a bonus equal to your caster level. 2) They can only make attacks of opportunity. 3)They would form a 10' radius as pictured on page 307 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. 4) Yes, the sentinel in his square gets an AoO, but they do not provide flanking. 5) If you look on page 307 of the DMG, you see that Sam will only be threatened by 8 total squares, the other sentinels will be in squares that are not adjacent to Sam. Good Gaming! So, it should be decent at lower levels against low AC opponents like arcane casters. At level 6, even if only 1/4 of them hit, that's still 2d8+4 damage along with flanking and mobility limitations. At higher levels, they can still provide flanking, but probably won't be good for much more due to their low attack bonus.
#65 amatulic Apr 05, 2007 15:45:22	I asked CustServe some questions regarding the horribly incomplete spell Legion of Sentinels: Hmm, CustServ didn't exactly answer your last question, about how many AoO would an enemy receive the moment a bunch of sentinels appeared in a circle centered on the enemy. CustServ did say that the sentinel appearing in the enemy's square gets one, but the other 8 surrounding him? I'll assume they merely "threaten" upon appearance and don't take an AoO. -A
#66 zelck_dup Apr 05, 2007 16:53:15	Hmm, CustServ didn't exactly answer your last question, about how many AoO would an enemy receive the moment a bunch of sentinels appeared in a circle centered on the enemy. CustServ did say that the sentinel appearing in the enemy's square gets one, but the other 8 surrounding him? I'll assume they merely "threaten" upon appearance and don't take an AoO. -A There are only 8 Sentinels that can take the AoO: 1 in the caster's square and 7 surrounding him. One corner in the 5' radius around the caster won't have a sentinel there since the spell has to be centered on an intersection of squares; try drawing it out yourself. The 10' radius covers a total of 12 squares:
#67 amatulic Apr 05, 2007 17:25:53	There are only 8 Sentinels that can take the AoO: 1 in the caster's square and 7 surrounding him. One corner in the 5' radius around the caster won't have a sentinel there since the spell has to be centered on an intersection of squares; try drawing it out yourself. The 10' radius covers a total of 12 squares: Right, got it. The point was, I still can't tell from CustServ's answer if the sentinels all get an AoO in the round they appear, or do they have to wait until the enemy does something to provoke an AoO? The answer implied that one sentinel gets an AoO right away, but I'm not sure. -A
#68 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 06, 2007 1:54:22	The example given say that Bob the Beguiler readies an action. So the swordsman would attack immediately. I've got some suggestions for magic items, that are worth their price for the beguiler: - the 'smoking' weapon enchantment (LoD, +1): gain concealment and protection versus grappeling though toxic cloud - lesser rod of metmagic 'extend' (DMG, 3000gp):cheap way to extend some of you spells - hat of disguise (DMG, 1800): somtheing a beguiler already can do, but especially at lower levels it gives you ore freedom with spellslots - goggles of minute seeing (DMG 1250): bonusses with (I think) search and disable device - the 'eager'-enchantment (AEG, +2): +2 bonus on Init - easy travelling armour (HoB, 1500): more to carry for the weaker beguiler - Boots of striding and springeing (DM, 2500): increase move - hand of the mage (has been mentioned before) - mantle of second chances (..., 6000): make a save twice - headband of concious effort (CA?, ....gp): replace a save with a concentration check - replenishing skin (SSt, ...gp):need less sleep (2 hours) and less food/water - ring of the diamond mind (ToB, 3000) - silent portal disk (MoF, 350): no more sqeacky doors - metamagic handgrip (CM, 6000): apply any metamagic feat to a spell from a wand (you coudl still be a blaster in combo with UMD) - hevards fortifying bedroll (CM, 3000): you need less sleep - shadowy diadem (been mentioned before) - Colar of umbral metamorfis (been mentioned before)
#69 Reyemile Apr 06, 2007 10:56:58	Unreactive - Take a -6 penalty on initiative checks. This may guarantee you last place, but there may be advantages to starting an effect just prior to the next round. No, there really aren't.
#70 amatulic Apr 06, 2007 13:14:03	No, there really aren't. Funny you should say that, I was just thinking the same thing when I read your post. The only advantage I can see to being last in Initiative is if your allies already managed to finish off the enemies before it's your turn, which saves you some spell usage. Not much of an advantage, though. I've got some suggestions for magic items, that are worth their price for the beguiler: Cool. I had already added some of those a couple days ago, but I'll include the rest. I think that will pretty much complete the item list, and then I can work on the spells. BTW Boots of Striding and Springing cost 5500 gp, not 2500. -A EDIT: I finished adding the items you suggested, except for: - replenishing skin (SSt, ...gp):need less sleep (2 hours) and less food/water - ring of the diamond mind (ToB, 3000) I didn't add those because Replenishing Skin is a waterskin that refills itself over 1d4 hours (nothing to do with sleep or food), and I couldn't figure out how Ring of the Diamond Mind was useful. -A
#71 Omen_of_Peace Apr 06, 2007 19:19:53	Ring of the Diamond Mind is a must for every mage : it nets you the Mind over Body maneuver, which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a Fortitude save once per encounter. (or you could choose the one that replaces the Reflex save)
#72 amatulic Apr 07, 2007 1:34:30	Ring of the Diamond Mind is a must for every mage : it nets you the Mind over Body maneuver, which allows you to use a Concentration check instead of a Fortitude save once per encounter. (or you could choose the one that replaces the Reflex save) Seems to me that Headband of Conscious Effort (CAd, 4,000 gp) is a better value because it lets you substitute a Concentration check for any save. I could be wrong, but the real value seems to lie in the ability to change the effect of the ring by removing it and then wearing it again for 24 hours, provided you meet the prerequisite for the maneuver you want. Sort of has the flavor of a wizard's spell preparation. -A
#73 Omen_of_Peace Apr 08, 2007 7:24:46	No, the headband is just for Fortitude and only 1/day.
#74 amatulic Apr 08, 2007 11:26:33	No, the headband is just for Fortitude and only 1/day. Oops. You're right. I clarified the item description in the original article. Looks like the Ring of Diamond Mind might be a better value for the gold. -A
#75 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 11, 2007 14:29:00	another feat that is always usefull for casters: improved initiative. Always a good thing to start the combat first as a caster. But when your beguiler is only able to cast 1st level spells, I don't think it will be that usefull. The combatspells you want to use are 'color spray' and 'sleep': the first is short range (not that usefull on the first round of combat) and the second has a fullround as castingtime. - starting 3rd level you with 'advanced learning' can take (for example) 'net of shadows', which is a good battlefield-controll spell to cast at your first round. - starting 4th level you are abe to cast more usefull (2nd level) spells
#76 amatulic Apr 11, 2007 16:35:45	another feat that is always usefull for casters: improved initiative. Always a good thing to start the combat first as a caster. But when your beguiler is only able to cast 1st level spells, I don't think it will be that usefull. I've never liked the Improved Initiative feat because it doesn't cause you to go first; it merely gives you an edge once in a while. And I'm not sure if having an edge once in a while is worth a feat. Improved Initiative is OK for fighters who have plenty of bonus feats to squander. Feats are much more precious to other classes. I remember a series of sessions we had, in which the player with the highest Initiative bonus kept ending up nearly last in initiative order, over and over again, simply because other players had better rolls. Even if he had Improved Initiative, the 4 extra points wouldn't have resulted in him going first, but would have prevented him from being last. The combatspells you want to use are 'color spray' and 'sleep': the first is short range (not that usefull on the first round of combat) and the second has a fullround as castingtime. - starting 3rd level you with 'advanced learning' can take (for example) 'net of shadows', which is a good battlefield-controll spell to cast at your first round. - starting 4th level you are abe to cast more usefull (2nd level) spells I thought one of the best third level Advanced Learning spells would be distract assailant - it's a 1st-level spell, but you can cast it as a swift action in the same round as another spell to render an opponent flat-footed. It lets you keep a higher-level spell slot that you'd otherwise use up casting invisibility. (I may be spouting nonsense... I haven't logged experience with my beguiler yet. You and others have far more extensive playtesting experience than me; I'm just the scribe here.) Your message gives me an idea: It might be useful to have a short section on combat strategies. The Monster Manual does this, suggesting a DM how best to play it (see the Justicator in DMG2 for example). We could have strategies for illusion situations (when your opponents are undead), enchantment situations, and combinations. The strategies would include sequences of spells, metamagic feats, and skill checks that are most effective for various common situations. There may be different strategies based on opponents: a swarm of creatures, small group of undead, going against a single powerful spellcaster, an opposing evil adventuring group of 4-6 characters with a mix of spellcasters and attackers, a horde of demons... whatever might suggest different strategies. The fact that a beguiler normally deals nonlethal damage may suggest different strategies than other kinds of characters. Any ideas? -Alex
#77 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 12, 2007 2:29:19	I've never liked the Improved Initiative feat because it doesn't cause you to go first; it merely gives you an edge once in a while. And I'm not sure if having an edge once in a while is worth a feat. It's a feat that is mostly effective for either rogues or spellcasters. Rogues get opponents flatfooted (SA) and spellcasters can use that first round very well. I truly think your underestimating the first round for characters as these. Besides that, the beguiler has an added gain: he can more often use 'concealed spellcasting' increasing his spell-DC. Improved Initiative is OK for fighters who have plenty of bonus feats to squander. Feats are much more precious to other classes. that is (IMO) a misconception. Fighter do not gain much with Improved Initiative (II). Saying that they can 'squander' a feat, because they have so many is not very wise. I remember a series of sessions we had, in which the player with the highest Initiative bonus kept ending up nearly last in initiative order, over and over again, simply because other players had better rolls. Even if he had Improved Initiative, the 4 extra points wouldn't have resulted in him going first, but would have prevented him from being last. that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of II, ...it has everything to do with a bad roll: that's just the D&D-game. Having a BAB of +20 doesn't mean that you automatically hit more then the fella with +10: such is chance. I thought one of the best third level Advanced Learning spells would be distract assailant - it's a 1st-level spell, but you can cast it as a swift action in the same round as another spell to render an opponent flat-footed. I know the spell. I understand that it allow you to make effective use of the 'concealed casting' DC-bonus (flatfooted= no dex= concealed casting). This could indeed be good spell. Altough you won't use it that much untill you have so many spellslots to use. Using up a 1st level spellslot in order to get +1 DC is pretty costly untill higher levels. It lets you keep a higher-level spell slot that you'd otherwise use up casting invisibility. Yup, you're right about that. Just something I was wondering about. Can you use 'concealed spellcasting' when effectively using the HIDE-skill? Your message gives me an idea: It might be useful to have a short section on combat strategies. The Monster Manual does this, suggesting a DM how best to play it (see the Justicator in DMG2 for example). that is indeed a nice idea. It is probably also one of the most difficult things to get straight. Oppinions may very, more than with other topics. We could have strategies for illusion situations (when your opponents are undead), enchantment situations, and combinations. that is doable. The strategies would include sequences of spells, metamagic feats, and I'm not experienced in that field. I used to play warriors. BTW, I'm not very experienced with playing a Beguiler. I'm currently 2nd level. I just have a general experience with the game and a certain way with tactics. There may be different strategies based on opponents: a swarm of creatures, small group of undead, going against a single powerful spellcaster, an opposing evil adventuring group of 4-6 characters with a mix of spellcasters and attackers, a horde of demons... . Any ideas? all good ideas. You have a vision there. This may take a while;)
#78 spartanmd_dup Apr 12, 2007 10:42:55	Just a thought on this section: Abilities In order of priority, a beguiler's abilities should be assigned from highest to lowest as follows: Intelligence (for spells and skill points) Constitution (hit points, Fortitude saves, and Concentration) Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma. Arrange according to your strategy. You may want higher Dex for the rogue-like skill points, but if you want a strong spellcaster you shouldn't sacrifice Concentration bonus by making Dex higher than Con. Wisdom can be low priority; you already have a good Will save progression. The beguiler's flavor suggests that you should invest more into Charisma for social skills. If your beguiler will focus on social situations, that's fine. However, at 6th level you will get the glibness spell which makes your Charisma almost irrelevant in Bluff checks. Skill synergies can add +6 to Diplomacy checks, and if you are good-aligned, the Nymph's Kiss feat will add +2 to all your other Charisma-based skills. Therefore, it should be OK to give Charisma a low priority unless you really need to maximize Bluff and Diplomacy. Strength (your dump stat) You'll need a 13 WIS for the Shadowcraft Mage with the Feats of Earth Sense, Earth Power and Heighten strategy. So WIS can't be a dump stat...
#79 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 12, 2007 12:04:57	Just to back up my claim for Improved Initiative: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=827516 (I also asked the question for our party rogue)
#80 amatulic Apr 12, 2007 14:20:00	You'll need a 13 WIS for the Shadowcraft Mage with the Feats of Earth Sense, Earth Power and Heighten strategy. So WIS can't be a dump stat... I never wrote that Wis is a dump stat, I wrote that it's a "low priority" stat. I have clarified it in light of your message to say that it's low priority if you don't plan on using prestige classes or feats that require Wisdom. Just to back up my claim for Improved Initiative: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=827516 OK, I added it to the list in the Handbook. Aalthough, that thread demonstrates another complaint I have about this feat: it's beneficial to any character, not beguilers in particular. -A
#81 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 13, 2007 1:56:54	OK, I added it to the list in the Handbook. Aalthough, that thread demonstrates another complaint I have about this feat: it's beneficial to any character, not beguilers in particular. -A I don't follow your reasoning: - it is stated that Improved initiative is beneficial to any character (Which I doubt BTW) - rogues benefit from it in some way (SA) - spellcasters do benefit greatly with their buffing of allies or area spells against enemies - a beguiler get's another +1 DC on that first round (enemies are flatfooted), which makes it even better even if it would *just* be beneficial to *all* characters, then it must ben a splendid feat indeed. Worthy of the handbook ;) I agree that feats as 'spell focus Illusion/enchantment' are really worth it too, since they increase the DC by 1 on all occassions (not just the first round), but getting your opponents where you want them to be is really worth a lot (!!). This could win the battle. Houdoe !
#82 turin71 Apr 13, 2007 9:12:19	What are your thoughts on shadow evocation, shadow conjuration and greater versions of these. I originally thaught they would be the best advance learning spells because it essentially increases you spell list considerably, although at a lower effectiveness. However, I dont't notice enyone giving them much interest.
#83 amatulic Apr 13, 2007 10:19:28	What are your thoughts on shadow evocation, shadow conjuration and greater versions of these. I originally thaught they would be the best advance learning spells because it essentially increases you spell list considerably, although at a lower effectiveness. However, I dont't notice enyone giving them much interest. The Advanced Learning spell list in the Handbook still needs work. I intend to emphasize the Shadow spells more when I get around to re-doing that list. Nicholas the Paladin posted an excellent list of Advanced Learning choices in [post=11932630]post #59 of this thread[/post]. That list includes several shadow spells, and I intend to incorporate it into the Handbook. I haven't had time to participate on this message board this past week (parents visiting to help us remodel our home). I'll get to it. even if [Improved Initiative] would *just* be beneficial to *all* characters, then it must ben a splendid feat indeed. Worthy of the handbook ;) I agree with you. It's in the Handbook now. I note that if all characters take this feat, the benefit versus the rest of your party disappears, although the party as a whole gets more first hits. -A
#84 oldmanwinter Apr 13, 2007 22:06:05	I'm playing a Beguiler now and I'm using the Fey Heritage Feats combined with 'Magic in the blood' that lets you use any spell-like abilities 3 times a day instead of just once. I practically never run out of spells. My favourite magic item so far has been a tan Bag of Tricks. Whenever a fight is going poorly or we need a distraction I just whip a new cribbly out of my bag and hilarity ensues. Half of the Animals have improved grab so they can really cause some damage. Best of all I never need to get *my* hands dirty which is what being a Beguiler is all about.
#85 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 14, 2007 14:59:22	What are your thoughts on shadow evocation, shadow conjuration and greater versions of these. I originally thaught they would be the best advance learning spells because it essentially increases you spell list considerably, although at a lower effectiveness. However, I dont't notice enyone giving them much interest. I kind of found this to be obvious, but maybe could have given it more attention. To be really honest, I haven't really given these spells real attention besides 'shadow conjuration' since it is a good option for advanced learning for 4th spell-level ( after one level PrC dip). I like the conjuration spells, because they also give you acces to great utility spells (like phantomn steed, greater mage armour etc). I don't know if the 'shadow evocation' spell give the same range of usefullness, because I haven't given it my attention yet.
#86 Nelyo Apr 16, 2007 10:13:05	I found a few items in the Magic Item Compendium that look like good options for a Beguiler. The Mask of Silent Trickery (5000 gp) lets you cast an enchantment or illusion spell Silent without raising the spell level twice per day. The Mesmerist's Gloves (8000 gp) let you have any enchantment spell of third level or lower you cast target an additional enemy within 10 feet twice per day. The Ring of Silent Spells centers a silence effect on you and lets you cast 3 spells of 3rd level or lower as Silent during the effect without raising the effective spell level once per day for the low cost of 2000 gp. I really like this one for a Beguiler. It's cheap enough that you can get it at lower levels, and the silence effect means you don't need to make move silently checks.
#87 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 16, 2007 15:05:32	I did some research to what spells are really usefull with the 4th level 'shadow conjuration' spell. I mainly chose the utility spells, since they just work. The attack spels (which aren't that many) require 2 saves to work (will save to disbelive and the regular save). here's my selection...... 3rd level conjuration spells to copy: - bands of steel (SpC): immobilize or entangle creature (attack) - corpse candel (SpC): reveal invis enemies - dimension step (PH2): teleport allies equal to speed - extoplasmic web (GW): as web, but also affects non-corp (attack) - greater mage armour (SpC): gives +6 force armour - improved Mage armour: (UE): max +8 AC, but shorter - mass mage armour (SpC): as spell but more allies - nauseating breath (SpC): nausea (attack) - phantom steed (PHB): very nice steed with extra's - regal procession (SpC): as 'mount' but many mounts (good to have just in case) - stinking cloud (PHB): nausea (attacK) 2nd level conjuration spells to copy: - balefull transposition (SpC): two subjects switch places (attack) - glitterdust (PHB): good old glittedust is a keeper (attack) Siince attack spells require two saves they might not be the best choice. But hey, you just might need them.
#88 kage_jounin Apr 16, 2007 18:29:47	I did some research to what spells are really usefull with the 4th level 'shadow conjuration' spell. I mainly chose the utility spells, since they just work. The attack spels (which aren't that many) require 2 saves to work (will save to disbelive and the regular save). here's my selection...... 3rd level conjuration spells to copy: - bands of steel (SpC): immobilize or entangle creature (attack) - corpse candel (SpC): reveal invis enemies - dimension step (PH2): teleport allies equal to speed - extoplasmic web (GW): as web, but also affects non-corp (attack) - greater mage armour (SpC): gives +6 force armour - improved Mage armour: (UE): max +8 AC, but shorter - mass mage armour (SpC): as spell but more allies - nauseating breath (SpC): nausea (attack) - phantom steed (PHB): very nice steed with extra's - regal procession (SpC): as 'mount' but many mounts (good to have just in case) - stinking cloud (PHB): nausea (attacK) 2nd level conjuration spells to copy: - balefull transposition (SpC): two subjects switch places (attack) - glitterdust (PHB): good old glittedust is a keeper (attack) Siince attack spells require two saves they might not be the best choice. But hey, you just might need them. If you check the description of Shadow Conjuration you'll see that it only allows you to mimic Conjuration (Creation) and Conjuration (Summoning) spells. Baleful Transposition and Dimension Step are Conjuration (Teleportation) and therefore cannot be mimicked by Shadow Conjuration. Also, Glitterdust is already on the Beguiler spell-list, so no need to copy it with Shadow Conjuration, except the save DC would be as a 4th level spell so I suppose that's something. Otherwise though I think those are some great suggestions. :D
#89 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 17, 2007 1:30:17	If you check the description of Shadow Conjuration you'll see that it only allows you to mimic Conjuration (Creation) and Conjuration (Summoning) spells. Baleful Transposition and Dimension Step are Conjuration (Teleportation) and therefore cannot be mimicked by Shadow Conjuration. Also, Glitterdust is already on the Beguiler spell-list, so no need to copy it with Shadow Conjuration, except the save DC would be as a 4th level spell so I suppose that's something. Otherwise though I think those are some great suggestions. :D okay, my mistake. You'll see that it results in a minor list of usefull spells and not the gigantic spell-list that many people claim it will be. for getting a nice total overview of all spells, use this link (which has also many other nice options): http://www.emass-web.com/ (go to 'dynamic sheets')
#90 spartanmd_dup Apr 17, 2007 14:02:16	) Nicholas, What about all those fun acid spells? Wasn't there a spell in Minatures handbook called blast of fire? How about that Unicorn Horn shooting spell from PHII or Complete Mage? There are a ton of direct damage Conjuration spells! Isn't direct damage what you're trying to accomplish with the Shadow Conjuration Feat?
#91 amatulic Apr 17, 2007 15:14:57	You'll see that it results in a minor list of usefull spells and not the gigantic spell-list that many people claim it will be. Well, I found a pretty big list; see below. What about all those fun acid spells? Wasn't there a spell in Minatures handbook called blast of fire? How about that Unicorn Horn shooting spell from PHII or Complete Mage? There are a ton of direct damage Conjuration spells! Yes, according to the SRD, "Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower." This is a ton of spells. Here are the Conjuration (creation/summoning) Sor/Wiz spells I found, up to 3rd level: 0th level Acid splash (PH) Caltrops (SC) 1st level Black bag (BoVD) (3.0) Blockade (CS) Buzzing bee (SC) Corrosive grasp (SC) Deep breath (SC) Devlin's barb (Book of Eldritch Might) Extract drug (BoVD) (3.0) Fetid breath (Ghostwalk) Fog cloud (PH) Glaze lock (Frost) Grease (PH) Hail of stone (SC) Mage armor (beguiler already has it) Mount (PH) Nether trail (BoVD) Obscuring mist (PH) Orb of acid, lesser (CA) Orb of cold, lesser (CA) Orb of electricity, lesser (CA) Orb of fire, lesser (CA) Orb of sound, lesser (CA) Sticky floor (RDr) Stun ray (Dragon Annual 5) Summon monster I (PH) Summon undead I (PGF) Unseen servant (PH) Wall of smoke (Far Corners of the World - WoTC web pages) 2nd level Ashstar (Sand) Choke (Tome & Blood) (3.0) Clothier's closet (ME) Create magic tatoo (SC) Decastave (UE) Glitterdust (Beguiler already has it) Gnome blight (RDr) Ice darts (Frost) Ice knife (SC) Inky cloud (SC) Malevolent miasma (MF) Obscuring snow (Frost) Silver dragonmail (CV) Summon monster II (PH) Summon swarm (PH) Summon undead II (PGF) Unseen crafter (RE) Web (PH) 3rd level Acid breath (SC) Arctic haze (Frost) Bands of steel (SC) Bedevil (CR) Bolt of conjuring (Book of Eldritch Might) Bridge of sound (Sav) Contagious fog (SC) Corpse candle (SC) Devlin's venomblade (Book of Eldritch Might) Vile drown (BoVD) (3.0) Dust storm (DR331) Golden dragonmail (CV) Grasping wall (CS) Haboob (Sand) Icelance (SC) Laogzed's breath (Sav, SK) Greater mage armor (CA) Nauseating breath (SC) Phantom steed (PH) Regal procession (SC) Sepia snake sigil (PH) Shark bolt (DR334) Sleet storm (PH) Stinking cloud (PH) Summon monster III (PH) Summon undead III (PGF) Wall of chains (BoVD) (3.0) Admittedly some of those are 3.0, and many DMs disallow Dragon Magazine stuff. I notice that even the non-damage spells can still be useful to a beguiler in social situations. On the plus side, taking shadow conjuration as your Advanced Learning spell gives you access to many more spells. On the downside, according to SRD, "Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength. ... Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur." And an enemy gets two saves against your damage dealing spells; one to disbelieve, and one against damage. -A
#92 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 17, 2007 15:26:52	Nicholas, What about all those fun acid spells? Wasn't there a spell in Minatures handbook called blast of fire? How about that Unicorn Horn shooting spell from PHII or Complete Mage? There are a ton of direct damage Conjuration spells! Isn't direct damage what you're trying to accomplish with the Shadow Conjuration Feat? Not to me it seems. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not that keen on those 'secondhand' and weaker damagespells. Maybe I don't like the second save you have to make with shadow conjuration (SC). Maybe it's the possibility of only gaining 20% of the damage and effect. How I see it; once you'se seen one damage spells you've seen them all. That's not what the Beguiler (for me at last) is about. Get yourself a damage spell that helps you out when you're up against oozes/undead/constructs etc. For the rest of the time, manage with the 'soft and sneaky' enchantment or illusion spells and expand your repetoire of versatility that the SC-spell will give to you. If you want to be a blaster mage, be a Wizard or take a look at the shadowcraft-mage threads that are aplenty. But hey, if you want to be a blaster-Beguiler...go ahead.
#93 spartanmd_dup Apr 17, 2007 15:34:15	Not to me it seems. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not that keen on those 'secondhand' and weaker damagespells. Maybe I don't like the second save you have to make with shadow conjuration (SC). Maybe it's the possibility of only gaining 20% of the damage and effect. How I see it; once you'se seen one damage spells you've seen them all. That's not what the Beguiler (for me at last) is about. Get yourself a damage spell that helps you out when you're up against oozes/undead/constructs etc. For the rest of the time, manage with the 'soft' enchantment or illusion spells and expand your repetoire of versatility that the SC-spell will give to you. If you want to be a blaster mage, be a Wizard or take a look at the shadowcraft-mage threads that are aplenty. But hey, if you want to be a blaster-Beguiler...go ahead. Great points Nicholas. I think the lack of direct damage spells or attack form of any kind is a big weakness. That can be overcome with the shadowcraft mage agaisnt these immune to crit opponents. Just a note, most of the acid based Conj spells require no save. Other than shadowcraft mage, is there another way to do some direct damage once in a while? Perhaps an evocation wand or staff, right? I just would hate to play my beguiler and go into a tomb where all we faced was undead and constructs without some way of doing direct damage. I suppose you could just buff your companions, but...
#94 amatulic Apr 17, 2007 18:27:27	I'm not that keen on those 'secondhand' and weaker damagespells. Maybe I don't like the second save you have to make with shadow conjuration (SC). Nicholas, the primary advantage I see from shadow conjuration is that it instantly expands your spellbook by a huge amount. The damage spells may not be useful to you, but look at that list I posted earlier; you pick up a few extra social situation spells and buffs for the price of one Advanced Learning spell. Also, you get the orb spells for damaging. Note that these aren't subject to Spell Resistance and don't allow the enemy to save! The enemy only gets one Will save against your illusion. This amounts to a "Will Partial" - if your enemy fails the save, they still take partial damage. I agree, most of those damage spells aren't good thematic fits for a beguiler. I think a player who wants to focus on blasting should pick a different class. The important points to remember are: some of these spells do fit a beguiler thematically, you get a few decent damage spells if you happen to need them (say, in a solo encounter vs undead), and you gain access to multiple new beguiler-flavor spells for taking one Advanced Learning spell. That's a pretty good deal, I think - worthy of inclusion into the Handbook spell list when I get around to adding it. -A
#95 exzebachay Apr 17, 2007 19:42:41	It still relies on magic items, of course, but.. Getting ahold of a runestaff with a blasting spell or two in it, breaking out your hand UMD skill, and using your own caster level & casting attribute - that doesn't seem like a bad thing. I'd probably try to get ahold of a Casting Glove, too - just to give people a shock. "What - you didn't know I could cast Chain Lightning? What sort of all-powerful sorcerer would I be if I couldn't?" :D
#96 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 18, 2007 2:49:32	Nicholas, the primary advantage I see from shadow conjuration is that it instantly expands your spellbook by a huge amount. That I already saw. I made my selection of usefull spells out of this bigger list. The damage spells may not be useful to you, but look at that list I posted earlier; you pick up a few extra social situation spells and buffs for the price of one Advanced Learning spell. What spells for social situations are you referring to? the only usefull buff I see is 'greater mage armour'. Also, you get the orb spells for damaging. Note that these aren't subject to Spell Resistance and don't allow the enemy to save! The enemy only gets one Will save against your illusion. This amounts to a "Will Partial" - if your enemy fails the save, they still take partial damage. That i didn't realise. it's good to have one such spell at hand, just in case. No save, are you sure? (does it require a ranged touch) But aren't these ORB spells 1st level. That's not that great for a 4th level slot
#97 zombiegleemax Apr 18, 2007 12:00:30	why taint the beguiler with any other base class? The only plausable ones would be Rogue for some better attack, only for the small, or maybe swashbuckler for the dex based dodge stuff, med and larger only. Adding warlock just says "I wanna blast stuff but dont want to full class warlock cus they are evil" Beguilers should focus on what they do best:Sneak, cast spell, cause chaos, sneak, bed(insert town offical here)'s (insert wife, daughter, mother..etc. here), cash in the loot, and get out alive. Gnomes make the best beguilers, add in the flaws, which not only give you two feats but also give you two merits which can give you some ups to other stats or skills such as bluff. Drop some skill points on the social skill tricks, drop feats in spell focus, greater spell focus, skill focus (bluff) and you have a beguiler that does not need to worry about much other than my list above.
#98 zombiegleemax Apr 18, 2007 13:37:40	I just would hate to play my beguiler and go into a tomb where all we faced was undead and constructs without some way of doing direct damage. I suppose you could just buff your companions, but... But you could charm/dominate some people to help you! Do it the Beguiler way! This class is about subtility. I played a Beguiler from level 2-8. Have cover identities (form other PC to0), don't show yourself in combat situation and be creative. This is the the way to play a good Beguiler. When you do a good play, no one is supposed to know its because of you. Example of good play: - Creating false proof of guild, use sleigh of hand to put it on someone and make him arrested. - "Create friend" for traveling (boat, coach, ...) - Pass for some high authority(city guard,noble,..) - Give opponent curse item - pretend to be a vampire (thanks to Disguise spell skill trick) with invisibility and charm person
#99 Omen_of_Peace Apr 19, 2007 0:50:13	Also, you get the orb spells for damaging. Note that these aren't subject to Spell Resistance and don't allow the enemy to save! The original spells don't allow SR. Shadow Conjurations/Evocations on the other hand always allow it (they're illusions). So they are a ranged touch attack and only allow a Will save for 20% damage - possibly useful but not very exciting for a 4th level slot.
#100 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2007 2:03:55	Its late so I may have missed someone commenting on it earlier but no one has mentioned the feat that lets you get a familar. I recently built my wife a beguiler and the one thing she wanted was a pet. It wasn't until I was almost finished with the build that I realized that her familar shared all her skills. Which meant that if your familar could talk and had hands it could do things like, pick locks, use diplomacy, and most importantly UMD. Looking about for a "basic" familar I found I could have one or other. Either talking or sleight of handing and lock picking. In the end my wife went with a monkey but during the search I had the Beguiler from shining south suggested to me. Now I know it requires improved familar and the fact that its also called a beguiler is doubtlessly going to cause confusion but I couldn't beleave how amazing it was. First of all it not only has hands but also a prehensile tail, solid stats, its smart and can speak, and it has free true seeing to boot. Now spending two feats for one of these amazing guys may not be optimal but having a talking familar with full social and trapmonkey skills that can heal you or shoot off a few fireballs via UMD has to be worth something.
#101 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 19, 2007 2:19:35	Its late so I may have missed someone commenting on it earlier but no one has mentioned the feat that lets you get a familar. I recently built my wife a beguiler and the one thing she wanted was a pet. . a familiar is a nice nice idea to get into. But I still have a lot of questions with this idea. I find your imput a bit confusing. It wasn't until I was almost finished with the build that I realized that her familar shared all her skills. . really is this so? Please explain. Woudl this familiar also gain a reasonable amount of skillpoints. Animals usually just get 1 or 2 skillpoints per HD-increase (2+INT is think). Which meant that if your familar could talk and had hands it could do things like, pick locks, use diplomacy, and most importantly UMD. that would require suitable abilities too. I canb imagine that a familiar can have a good DEX this way, but woudl need a basic INT also to get along. DEX for opening locks is nice, but if you have the INT of an animal you do'nt tink of opening that lock with your nifty tools. Looking about for a "basic" familar I found I could have one or other. Either talking or sleight of handing and lock picking. In the end my wife went with a monkey but during the search I had the Beguiler from shining south suggested to me. . ??? that's a maigical animal of some sort....the one with the long tail (I think I've seen a picture) Now I know it requires improved familar and the fact that its also called a beguiler is doubtlessly going to cause confusion but I couldn't beleave how amazing it was. First of all it not only has hands but also a prehensile tail, solid stats, its smart and can speak, and it has free true seeing to boot. Now spending two feats for one of these amazing guys may not be optimal but having a talking familar with full social and trapmonkey skills that can heal you or shoot off a few fireballs via UMD has to be worth something. Just two feats for a nice familiar woudl be nice. Can you give us some more info. Stats, abilities etc.? What I'm thinking is that this might be a good idea for lower levels, but at higher levels the familiar might go lacking for skillpoints.
#102 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 19, 2007 8:02:15	For the Hide-skill beguiler: Ring of the darkhidden is a must. It makes you invisible for darkvision. Only costs 2000gp in the Magic item compendium. Also you can combine it with the darklight lantern from Secrets of Sarlona. It costs only 500gp, you can pay others (cheaply) to charge it with pp and it removes all natural light around you. and 'Shape Soulmeld - Fellmist Robe': you now have the concealment you need to remain hidden constantly. Shards from XPH will give you another +10 in Hide
#103 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2007 13:02:13	Some clearification on the beguilers familar. First off all familars share the small skill ranks as their masters. Thats basic players handbook stuff. Of course most familars can't make good use of them because wizards skills tend to be things like knowledges and concentration. A beguiler of course has a much better set of skills to work with. A familar uses its masters ranks but its own stats for skill checks so it is important that whatever you pick has a solid Dex, Int and Cha. A monkey (my wifes choice) has a very good dex but only an average Cha and Int (thanks to a familar getting a boost to Int for being a familar). Taking improved familar, on the other hand, give you a bunch of options for creatures with much better stats and abilities. One of these, the Beguiler (a creature from Shining South that happens to have the same name and can be taken as an improved familar) has both great stats (high Dex and above average Int and Cha) and the ability to speak and use true seeing. I'm afraid I'm at work so I don't have all the stats at the moment but I seem to recall them having a Dex around 17, an Int and Cha of 12 or 13, multi attack, weapon finesse, true see on at all times, and the ability to speak common plus there own lauguge. I really can't imagine why a race of creatures thats smarter than the average human would want to become a familar but its in the Shining South book so fair game. For a real game I can totally see your DM shooting it down on balance reasons. I mean having a pet that can UMD a haste or healing wand every combat is kinda good but having that same pet use true seeing to ruin your DM's tricks at 6th level is just too good. But as this is the optimization boards I figured it might be worth posting. Again I know beguiler builds are tight on feats so two feats might not be optimal for a familar but I think its worth mention in the Feat section. Beside a beguiler with a beguiler just sounds cool.
#104 amatulic Apr 19, 2007 13:41:08	What spells for social situations are you referring to? the only usefull buff I see is 'greater mage armour'. Well, I can see social uses for unseen servant, regal procession, and clothier's closet. The original spells don't allow SR. Shadow Conjurations/Evocations on the other hand always allow it (they're illusions). So they are a ranged touch attack and only allow a Will save for 20% damage - possibly useful but not very exciting for a 4th level slot. You're right about the spell resistance. The orb spells normally work regardless of spell resistance, but not when cast through shadow conjuration. Then again, a beguiler has to deal with SR anyway, so there's no reason to expect SR-proof spells cast against an enemy. One thing you need to understand: it doesn't matter that lesser orb is a 1st level spell! Their power increases with your level. If you can cast spells at 4th level, casting a lesser orb of sound with shadow conjuration will deal 4d6 sonic damage with a will-partial save. The enemy will take damage regardless of the save outcome. And if you know that your foe has a specific energy weakness, you can pick the orb spell that will do the most damage. I believe that this is really good to have in your arsenal, as a beguiler. -A
#105 exzebachay Apr 19, 2007 15:32:26	One thing you need to understand: it doesn't matter that lesser orb is a 1st level spell! Their power increases with your level. If you can cast spells at 4th level, casting a lesser orb of sound with shadow conjuration will deal 4d6 sonic damage with a will-partial save. I believe that this is really good to have in your arsenal, as a beguiler. -A Still, it's one attack, with a max of 5d6 damage. And you've used a 4th level spell slot for that. Despite the fact that you can tailor the energy type to penetrate the defences of some enemies with specific defences, you're still using a 4th level spell slot to deal a max of 5d6 damage to one enemy. What's the advantage again? And how does the "power increasing with your level" thing differ from any other spell..?
#106 amatulic Apr 19, 2007 16:09:48	Still, it's one attack, with a max of 5d6 damage. And you've used a 4th level spell slot for that. Despite the fact that you can tailor the energy type to penetrate the defences of some enemies with specific defences, you're still using a 4th level spell slot to deal a max of 5d6 damage to one enemy. What's the advantage again? The orb spells deal lethal damage (most beguiler's damage spells are nonlethal), and doesn't require two saves like other lethal damage spells. That seems like a pretty clear adavantage to me. I'm not saying you'll need these spells (if you want to be a damage blasting spellcaster, choose a different class) but having such an array of spells at your disposal just makes you that much more flexible and adaptible to more situations. I'd personally avoid using them unless I knew a specific energy weakness of my opponent, then use the appropriate orb to bypass the enemy's damage reduction. Then the orb spells are advantageous over other damaging spells. -A
#107 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 20, 2007 2:41:25	The orb spells deal lethal damage (most beguiler's damage spells are nonlethal), and doesn't require two saves like other lethal damage spells. That seems like a pretty clear adavantage to me. I'm not saying you'll need these spells (if you want to be a damage blasting spellcaster, choose a different class) but having such an array of spells at your disposal just makes you that much more flexible and adaptible to more situations. I'd personally avoid using them unless I knew a specific energy weakness of my opponent, then use the appropriate orb to bypass the enemy's damage reduction. Then the orb spells are advantageous over other damaging spells. -A Acid Breath (acid damage, but only a short cone) and nauseating breath (nausea= very effective) are both 3rd level spells and examples that can be usefull in combat, in the direct kind of way. the way is see it, that when you against opponents that are immune to many of your spells (like undead), you either: - buff your team wit regular beguiler spells - use illusions to hamper and confuse - use UMD to use that spare wand - use some extra 'shadow conjuration'(SC) -buff spells to buff, reveal, etc (be usefull) A combat lastst about 6 rounds. I just want to make sure that every round I do something usefull for my team. It doens't have to be 'damage' perse. Sure it's good to be flexible (and SC gives your that to some extend), but trying to do damage through a spell that either requires 2 saves or a save and ranged touch attack is statistically speaking not always the wiser choice. Amatulic, you gave an extensive list of conjuration-spells, but if you analyse it carefully you will find out that only a few are really worth casting. But in the end we may conclude that 'shadow conjuration' is a very usefull spell to take with 'advanced learning'. It's just not as astounding as some might make you believe. My *personal* choice of spells to copy thus would be: 3rd level conjuration spells: - bands of steel (SpC): immobilize or entangle creature (it's a pity that it's just one opponent) - corpse candle (SpC): reveal invis enemies - extoplasmic web (GW): as web, but also affects non-corp (attack) - greater mage armour (SpC): gives +6 force armour - improved Mage armour: (UE): max +8 AC, but shorter - mass mage armour (SpC): as spell but more allies - nauseating breath (SpC): nausea-cone that is 30ft long: effecively take out enemies (not usefull aganinst undead etc) - phantom steed (PHB): very nice steed with extra's - regal procession (SpC): as 'mount' but many mounts (good to have just in case) - sleet storm (PHB): ice area (40ft rad !)without vision: good battlefield controll - stinking cloud (PHB): nausea in 20ft radius: effectively take out enemies (not usefull aganinst undead etc) (I play Forgotten Realms)
#108 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 20, 2007 3:26:17	BTW, does anyone understand the 2nd level ability " suprise casting". It seems pretty worthless to lose a round feinting in order to get +1 DC on a spell the next round. (It's an ability that might be usefull starting at 6th level, when it can be done as a move action (I'm not keen on spending 2 feats in order to make it a swift action: 'expertise' and impr feint').)
#109 Omen_of_Peace Apr 20, 2007 6:05:44	The idea is interesting, but since it requires the Beguiler to be in melee, it's pretty worthless (Beguilers are squishy - except if they spend rounds and slots on Mirror Image & co.). I have a small problem with casting Greater MA as a shadow conjuration : the spell says "Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are one-fifth as large." which as a DM I may interpret as applying to the AC bonus of GMA (I'm not saying it's RAW). @amatulic : I agree with the above posters. The shadow conjured orbs have very limited efficiency. They are useful nonetheless. The spells that conjure acid are also interesting to get rid of (doors, traps...) objects automatically make their saves, but the remaining 20% bypass hardness. [though after checking, they're usually higher level - nevermind] Bands of steel is *very* good but limited to Medium or smaller creatures. My (messy) list also includes : Drown (BoVD), Melf's unicorn arrow (PHB2 p119), Wall of Chains (BoVD p108) at level 3. That's if the BoVD is allowed.
#110 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 20, 2007 6:23:01	The idea is interesting, but since it requires the Beguiler to be in melee, it's pretty worthless (Beguilers are squishy - except if they spend rounds and slots on Mirror Image & co.). I'm not even bothered by the 'being in melee' thing (use a whip with 15ft reach). It's just that I'm wondering why they even wasted the ink with giving it as a special ability at 2nd level. Isn't it something that any character can do (feinting)? And who would burn a round for gaining a minor bonus. I have a small problem with casting Greater MA as a shadow conjuration : the spell says "Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are one-fifth as large." which as a DM I may interpret as applying to the AC bonus of GMA (I'm not saying it's RAW). Na, that wouldn't be right. If you want to break the use of it, you could reason that attacking the Beguiler with (shadow)GMA would allow a save (interacting with illusion) and thus risking making the +6AC a +1AC. But (as a Co-DM) I would rule that since the GMA doesn't allow a save for the attacker, so wouldn't shadow-GMA. I don't consider using a 4th level spellslot for a 3rd level spell to be gamebreaking. So I will leave it at that.
#111 Omen_of_Peace Apr 20, 2007 8:17:04	Oh, right, I forgot about the whip that gets you into melee even though it doesn't threaten. My take on Shadow Conjuration is biased because in a campaign I'm playing a Shadowcraft Mage, with whom the slightest imbalance at the start can make something really overpowered.
#112 spartanmd_dup Apr 20, 2007 10:43:36	Oh, right, I forgot about the whip that gets you into melee even though it doesn't threaten. My take on Shadow Conjuration is biased because in a campaign I'm playing a Shadowcraft Mage, with whom the slightest imbalance at the start can make something really overpowered. About the Whip, Indy , I thought it does no damage to opponents who have any armor? How are you using this in combat? Just to entangle/trip? Or are you somehow buffing the whip with spells? I suppose if you used the Beguiler/Warlock Theurge build and hideous blow, this would work for direct damage.
#113 zombiegleemax Apr 20, 2007 10:55:19	About the Whip, Indy , I thought it does no damage to opponents who have any armor? How are you using this in combat? Just to entangle/trip? Or are you somehow buffing the whip with spells? You don't need to hit or do damage in order to feint. I've yet to figure out the value of a whip with the exception of tripping and disarming, and those are going to be difficult to pull off with a beguiler (no room for improved trip/disarm). So the only real value to the beguilder is that you can feint with it. Since you are never going to actually roll to hit, the -4 for lack of proficiency doesn't really matter. However, some DMs (mine included) say you are not in melee with a whip at 15 feet due to this: In the SRD, under the rules for firing a ranged weapon into melee combat, there's a definition for "in melee". "Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other." (so you would only be in melee if they threatened you, and that defeats the purpose of using the 15 foot whip).
#114 amatulic Apr 20, 2007 17:03:11	...some DMs (mine included) say you are not in melee with a whip at 15 feet due to this ... definition for "in melee". "Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other." (so you would only be in melee if they threatened you, and that defeats the purpose of using the 15 foot whip). Yes, those are the exact words in the SRD. Either your DM is simply wrong, or he chose to substitute his own house rule. The way that sentence reads is so free of ambiguity, it can be interpreted only one way. It says you are both in melee if either one of you threatens the other, with no distinction made concerning which one of you. That's what "if either threatens the other" means. The language is precise in this case. It doesn't mean "if both threaten one another" or "if you alone are threatened." -A
#115 Nelyo Apr 20, 2007 17:27:21	I think what he's trying to say is that since you don't threaten squares with a whip, you aren't considered "in melee" by that definition unless your opponent threatens you. This makes a whip rather useless for the purpose of using Surprise Casting. A normal reach weapon would work, but then you have to deal with 5 ft. step full attacks.
#116 zombiegleemax Apr 20, 2007 17:29:34	Yes, those are the exact words in the SRD. Either your DM is simply wrong, or he chose to substitute his own house rule. The way that sentence reads is so free of ambiguity, it can be interpreted only one way. It says you are both in melee if either one of you threatens the other, with no distinction made concerning which one of you. That's what "if either threatens the other" means. The language is precise in this case. It doesn't mean "if both threaten one another" or "if you alone are threatened." -A Except that if you are 15 feet away from an opponent with 5 or 10 feet of reach, NOBODY is threatening anyone (you can't threaten with a whip, and your opponent is not close enough to threaten you.) So its not a matter of semantics or language, its a matter of nobody being threatened, and therefore you are not considered in melee, and cannot use the beguiler ability to feint.
#117 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 20, 2007 19:04:48	forget about the 15ft whip, what about 'surprise casting'?
#118 amatulic Apr 21, 2007 11:33:08	forget about the 15ft whip, what about 'surprise casting'? Scratching my head over it, I'd say there are times when you can't avoid being in close quarters. At such times, you may find surprise casting useful. Does feinting in combat deny your opponent's Dex bonus to AC just for you, or for any other ally who wants to attack the same foe? (I don't really know; I generally don't play melee characters.) (I still like the idea of a whip. PHB p112 does say a whip is a reach weapon. By RAW, a 15-ft whip threatens squares 15 feet away, but not closer. The whip damage isn't subdual either, if that matters. I don't see the problem.) -A
#119 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 23, 2007 1:57:21	Scratching my head over it, I'd say there are times when you can't avoid being in close quarters. At such times, you may find surprise casting useful. That's not what I mean. Maybe I get it all wrong, but I just don't see the usefullness of this (2nd level) ability. You can feint as a standard action (just like any character can, even without a feat), which might allow you to use a spell the next round with a +1 DC. The way I see it is, that feinting is a common ability that any character can use to disallow his opponent DEX to AC. The beguiler can as a 'special new ability' use it to ad +1DC to his spells....that's probably the only rreason why they mention it as an ability. But this ability just gets usefull at 6th level when he can use it as a 'move action'. I get the feeling that this 2nd level ability is just a 'introduction' of an ability that you realistically will only use from 6th level on. I think they 'hold the door open' for the aquisition of two feats: 'combat expertise' and 'improved feint'..... but that's just a bad design. Everybody sees that these 2 feats are way to costly and will not be chosen often. Does feinting in combat deny your opponent's Dex bonus to AC just for you, or for any other ally who wants to attack the same foe? (I don't really know; I generally don't play melee characters.) No, I don't think it works that way. (I still like the idea of a whip. PHB p112 does say a whip is a reach weapon. By RAW, a 15-ft whip threatens squares 15 feet away, but not closer. The whip damage isn't subdual either, if that matters. I don't see the problem.) -A yes, the whip will work from 15ft, even when you're not prodicient with is. You don't need to hit, you only need to be in melee with it/threaten with it.
#120 Omen_of_Peace Apr 23, 2007 8:54:38	@amatulic: Whip A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.
#121 amatulic Apr 23, 2007 13:21:30	Omen_of_Peace - Yup, you're right. Looks like a longspear would be the best reach weapon to feint, then. Nicholas the Paladin - I agree; Surprise Casting doesn't become useful until 6th level. It doesn't seem to be useful at all for a beguiler who controls the battlefield while hidden. And a beguiler shouldn't need to take combat feats. I suppose there might be some gish builds where Surprise Casting has value, but I can't imagine WoTC designing a base class with multiclassing as the focus for one of its features. More likely it's something that didn't get well thought out. Hmm... how about having one of your illusions or mind-controlled puppets perform the feint? That seems more in line with what a beguiler should be doing. Something you control feints, so the effect is the same as if you did the feint yourself (after all, you did feint yourself, but indirectly). This would further raise your save DC against that foe. Creating such a situation might be good if you run out of high-level spells and want to ensure the enemy doesn't save against a lower-level spell. Seems kind of advanced for a 2nd level beguiler, though. -A
#122 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 24, 2007 1:02:08	Hmm... how about having one of your illusions or mind-controlled puppets perform the feint? That seems more in line with what a beguiler should be doing. Something you control feints, so the effect is the same as if you did the feint yourself (after all, you did feint yourself, but indirectly). This would further raise your save DC against that foe. Creating such a situation might be good if you run out of high-level spells and want to ensure the enemy doesn't save against a lower-level spell. Seems kind of advanced for a 2nd level beguiler, though. -A thematically I like it, but i consider this somewhat of a longshot. I don't think I can convince my fellowplayers of the validity of this trick. In our group we try to keep things simple, because discussions will be plentyfull anyway. Besides that, This tactic will only be usable when you 'puppet' has 'impr feint' or else he only only get AoO's, getting himself slaughtered for an extra +1DC: I reconsider....I don't like this tactic at all man, you're imaginative, but this is pushing it
#123 amatulic Apr 24, 2007 12:00:04	thematically I like it, but i consider this somewhat of a longshot. I don't think I can convince my fellowplayers of the validity of this trick. In our group we try to keep things simple, because discussions will be plentyfull anyway. Besides that, This tactic will only be usable when you 'puppet' has 'impr feint' or else he only only get AoO's, getting himself slaughtered for an extra +1DC: I reconsider....I don't like this tactic at all man, you're imaginative, but this is pushing it Well, that's one of the nice things about this class, it allows you to be imaginative in your tactics. Instead of a puppet, how about an illusion? A spell like silent image, minor image, or mirror image are perfect. An image of yourself, or any creature that you imagine, can walk right up to an opponent and feint an attack. Mirror image seems especially interesting, because your opponents don't get a Will save to disbelieve when interacting with the image. Opponents don't know which image is you, and the only way to get rid of the images is to attack them. The images of you can be moved around at will (provided you and they occupy touching squares), and they imitate your actions, so if you feint, they all feint. If you manage to distribute these images to feint multiple opponents, that's what I call battlefield control! Honestly, I can't think of any other way Surprise Casting would be useful below level 6. Leveraging off the low-level image spells is all that comes to mind. I have to believe that's what WoTC intended. Perhaps one of us should ask Customer Service for clarification. -A
#124 zombiegleemax Apr 24, 2007 17:19:17	I see that Cha is listed as not really needing to be that high. Don't you need a good charisma to get your charmed puppets to do things they wouldn't normally do? Also, if you do not have a rogue in group, is beguiler good enough to act as main trap monkey? I realize that you will have better bonuses to Search and Disarm with maxed out Int and Insightful Reflexes can help with Reflex saves, but is that enough? Will you sorely miss Evasion? -dm
#125 amatulic Apr 24, 2007 18:33:57	I see that Cha is listed as not really needing to be that high. Don't you need a good charisma to get your charmed puppets to do things they wouldn't normally do? Not for a puppet under the effect of a compulsion (mind-affecting) spell. Charisma is useful to a beguiler for two skills: Diplomacy checks to improve an enemy's attitude toward you, or Bluff checks to feint in combat (to make use of the Surprise Casting ability). Also, if you do not have a rogue in group, is beguiler good enough to act as main trap monkey? I realize that you will have better bonuses to Search and Disarm with maxed out Int and Insightful Reflexes can help with Reflex saves, but is that enough? Will you sorely miss Evasion? A beguiler makes a decent trap monkey, especially with Insightful Reflexes. Evasion is valuable. It can be had at higher levels by buying an item, or at lower levels if your DM allows custom items (see Lesser Ring of Evasion in the Handbook). You can also get a set of masterwork longspoon thieves' tools (see Complete Adventurer). These tools have long handles that let you perform Disable Device or Open Lock checks from 5 ft away, and the masterwork versions give you a +2 bonus to these skill checks. This helps you avoid needing Evasion in some cases (I just noticed I didn't put the Longspoon tools in the Handbook, so I just added it). Bag of Tricks (900 gp) might also be useful to set off traps, as would unseen servant cast through shadow conjuration assuming you learned that spell. -A
#126 zombiegleemax Apr 24, 2007 18:41:38	Ok. I thought Charisma was needed for the Charm person/monster spells to get them to do things they wouldn't normally do. Are the Charm spells not used much compared to other spells, or are they just used to make NPCs friendly? -dm
#127 amatulic Apr 24, 2007 18:55:21	Ok. I thought Charisma was needed for the Charm person/monster spells to get them to do things they wouldn't normally do. Are the Charm spells not used much compared to other spells, or are they just used to make NPCs friendly? My mistake; I forgot in my reply that two spells do need a Charisma check (if you want to do more than simply stop a creature in its tracks). There are only three charm spells in a beguiler's list: charm person, charm monster, and stay the hand. Of those, only charm person and charm monster require you to make an opposed Charisma check. Whether your character concept includes heavy use of these spells is up to you, and that will decide whether or not to nerf those spells with a low Cha score. If you do have a low Charisma, you can still succeed on these spells if you use them selectively against creatures and NPCs that you are pretty sure have low charisma. For example, even if you have low Charisma, charm monster would likely still work on trolls or bugbears, but never on dragons or fey; likewise, charm person would probably still work against a prison guard or tavern owner, but not on the city magistrate or elite guardsmen. -A
#128 zombiegleemax Apr 24, 2007 19:05:54	Cool thanks. I want to make a level 10 Beguiler and here is what I am thinking so far: Human, Beguiler9/Mindbender1 32 point buy Str 8 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 16 (18 with 2 stat increases) Wis 10 Cha 12 Feats: Spell focus(enchantment), Greater Spell focus(enchantment), Insightful Reflexes, spell penetration, Greater spell penetration -dm
#129 widow Apr 24, 2007 20:15:53	I am not sure if anyone mentioned it, but a whisper gnome is a good choice as far as the gnome builds go. Speed of 30, silence once a day, Stats +2 Con and Dex, -2 Str and Cha(if you can manage the Cha lost), and racial bonuses to hide and move silently.
#130 amatulic Apr 24, 2007 20:18:30	I am not sure if anyone mentioned it, but a whisper gnome is a good choice as far as the gnome builds go. Speed of 30, silence once a day, Stats +2 Con and Dex, -2 Str and Cha(if you can manage the Cha lost), and racial bonuses to hide and move silently. It's already mentioned in the Handbook that started this thread. There are also Medium creatures that have a +2 bonus to Int. -A
#131 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 25, 2007 1:34:47	Again I admire your imagination, but i think your suggestions are a bit too much. Instead of a puppet, how about an illusion? A spell like silent image, minor image, or mirror image are perfect. An image of yourself, or any creature that you imagine, can walk right up to an opponent and feint an attack. ethically it would be better than with a 'puppet', but mechanically this still goes too far IMO. Mirror image seems especially interesting, because your opponents don't get a Will save to disbelieve when interacting with the image. Opponents don't know which image is you, and the only way to get rid of the images is to attack them. The images of you can be moved around at will (provided you and they occupy touching squares), and they imitate your actions, so if you feint, they all feint. If you manage to distribute these images to feint multiple opponents, that's what I call battlefield control! mirror image has a very short reach (non IIRC), so why try to feint with images that as close as you are. You still can make just *one* feint and not one with each image. What's the point? Honestly, I can't think of any other way Surprise Casting would be useful below level 6. Leveraging off the low-level image spells is all that comes to mind. I have to believe that's what WoTC intended. -A No, I don't think that WotC is as imaginative as you are. BTW, I asked CustServ my question about 'surprise casting. I'll let you know.
#132 vapthorne Apr 25, 2007 17:38:32	I've been giving the Beguiler some thought, and thought of a few ways to add better combat options. - Infernal Sorcerer Heritage / Infernal Sorcerer Howl (PHB 2) This requires a level 1 dip in Sorcerer; but it let's you sacrifice a spell slot to do a 30-foot of sonic damage (2d6 per level, supernatural -- no spell resistance, and Fortitude for half -- no evasion). The only question is whether you can use a Beguiler's spell slots. Other than that, a level in Sorcerer has other benefits such as having a Familiar (with the Beguiler's skill points) or Metamagic Specialist (PHB 2) - Raiment of Four (Magic Item Compendium) These are magic items; that among other things lets you spontaneously cast certain spells for a few times per day, and it doesn't say that you need to have the spell known... just the spell slot. Plus they're cheap. The Goggles makes you immune to blindness and let's you cast Fireball (3x day) for 4,000. The Belt doubles your carrying capacity and cast Teleport (2x Day) for 8,000. The Gloves lets you cast Light (at will) and Magic Missle (3x Day) for 1,110. - Dragon 311's Bloodline Feats (Page 32) If you have a way to acquire a familiar, you can add a specific list of spells depending on the bloodline you choose. The options are: Celestial, Fiendish, Fey, Dragon, Earth, Fire, Water, and Air. The only downside is that you can only choose one and you can't cast spell that have an opposite theme (No Air spells if you select the Earth bloodline... not a big loss for a Beguiler). IMHO, Fire Bloodline is an awesome choice because you gives you so many good spells [Meteor Swarm!]. - Green Ronin's Assassins Handbook Disclaimer: This is a third-party supplement, so I know it won't really fly. However, I been looking at this and I found that the Shadow Mage PrC in this splatbook is really good for a Beguiler. The requirements are easy to qualify and it you access to the this book's version of the Assassin's spell list at first level. They only go up to fourth level, but several of them are damn good; a few damage spells (Cold version of Burning Hand and Scorching Ray), Spider Climb, Poison, Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, etc. If you stick it through until, say 4th level you get a Ghost familiar. I just had to mention it.
#133 cooperflood Apr 25, 2007 23:08:29	Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) is another good prestige class for the Beguiler. The main difficulty is getting 8 ranks in Know (Religion), but you can get around that by a single level dip in Mindbender. The class is full caster, gain access to the Oracle Domain (Spells and Power), Trap Sense, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and at ten level you can never be suprised. All abilities which have good synergy with the Beguiler, basically making you more rogue like at the cost of losing skills. It also makes a good lead into Loremaster PrC.
#134 nicholas_the_paladin Apr 26, 2007 2:58:30	I asked CustServ my question about 'surprise casting', but unfortunately got an answer that is not all that clear. Question: Dear Customer service, Can you explain to me the usefullnes of the 2nd level Beguiler-ability " suprise casting" (PHB2). It seems pretty worthless to lose a round feinting in order to get +1 DC on a spell the next round. The way I see it is, that feinting is a common ability that any character can use to disallow his opponent DEX to AC. The beguiler can as a 'special new ability' use it to ad +1DC to his spells....that's probably the only reason why it is mentioned as an ability. I get the feeling that this 2nd level ability is just a 'introduction' of an ability that you realistically will only use from 6th level on. (when it can be done as a *move action*). I interpret it as that WotC 'holds the door open' for the aquisition of two feats: 'combat expertise' and 'improved feint' (which is even adviced in PHB2)..... but that might just be bad design. Many players see that these 2 feats are way to costly and will not be chosen often. can you please explain? answer: Thank you for writing. Surprise Casting functions as you have described it. The ability grants the Beguiler an additional type of attack that can be used when feinting. As you mentioned the ability does get a boost at 6th level, making it more versatile. I'm sorry you feel that this ability is underpowered, but I would hesitate to speculate about the designers intentions when creating it. Good Gaming!
#135 amatulic Apr 26, 2007 16:20:11	mirror image has a very short reach (non IIRC), so why try to feint with images that as close as you are. You still can make just *one* feint and not one with each image. What's the point? Mirror image reaches as far as you can string images in a line of adjacent squares. If you don't mind being up close, and can arrange your images to be adjacent to other opponents, then when you feint, they all feint. As a DM, I would rule that the nearest opponent to each image has to make a Sense Motive check to oppose the feint. I'd also rule that you can feint with other spells such as minor image. The CustServ reply you receives indicates that Surprise Casting is deliberately weak below 6th level. In some situations, however, spending 1 round to gain an edge over a tough opponent may be worthwhile. Of course, it's more worthwhile if you can do it as a move action. I started [thread=836706]another thread[/thread] elsewhere to get thoughts from others. I've been giving the Beguiler some thought, and thought of a few ways to add better combat options. Well, I've always felt that if you want a direct-damage spellcaster, go with some other class. Dipping into 1 level of Sorcerer isn't a bad idea if the benefits of gaining a familiar outweigh the disadvantage of losing a caster level. It seems like more of an even trade, to me, rather than an advantage. Remember, a beguiler is one of the few classes that can hold its own in a campaign without needing to multiclass. I like the Raiment of Four item suggestions, though. I'll add them to the Handbook after I can get to my books and look them up. Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) is another good prestige class for the Beguiler. Thanks! I added it to the Handbook. -A
#136 nicholas_the_paladin May 03, 2007 6:36:13	@ Amatulic, In post 59 I proposed a whole list of spells that I found usefull for the 'advanced learning' slots. In post 102 I gave some suggestions for magical items. Did you have a chance to look at them? Are they okay for your Handbook?
#137 amatulic May 05, 2007 1:03:45	@ Amatulic, In post 59 I proposed a whole list of spells that I found usefull for the 'advanced learning' slots. In post 102 I gave some suggestions for magical items. I added the ring of darkhidden. I don't have the book to look up darklight lantern but I mentioned that with the ring. Can you give me a more complete description? I didn't understand the bit about paying others to charge it up, but I made a guess when I put it in the Handbook. I didn't add the shards. I didn't see the value in spending 1000 gp for a single-use +10 to hide, but I'm open to convincing. I think spending 1600 gp for a continuously-active +4 to hide has better value, if you can custom-craft an item. I do plan to add your spell list. I've been putting that off because I haven't had a block of time to look at everything and make a nicely formatted bit of text to insert. Recent events hat home and work have prevented me from participating lately, but I'll get to it. -A
#138 nicholas_the_paladin May 10, 2007 2:01:19	I don't have the book to look up darklight lantern but I mentioned that with the ring. Can you give me a more complete description? I didn't understand the bit about paying others to charge it up, but I made a guess when I put it in the Handbook. Sorry, I have to fail you in this one. I read this suggestion from someone else, but i don't have the book myself. BTW, in the handbook you forgot to mention for 'collar of Umbral metamorphisis' that it also grants 'Hide in Plain Sight' .... that's the real treat. Also you state about the skill-tricks: Level 2: Conceal Spellcasting* - don't be seen casting; good in social situations, but unnecessary when hidden and using the Cloaked Casting ability. That's not the point: it let's you prevent AoO's, when your no longer hidden in combat (that will happen, especially at lower levels). Besides that I can imagine that in social situations, some DMs may give an opponent a chance to react to your casting (Charm for instance), thus blowing the opportunity to use your 'cloaked casting' ability. that's what the beguiler is all about: catching your opponent unaware..... BTW; I'm not sure if this skill-trick is nescecarry out of combat: races of Stone has the same ability (spot vs Sleight of hand), but I use it only out of combat. Level 3: Assume Quirk - social interaction trick. (removes penalties for viewers that know this particular person) Level 5: Group Fake-Out* - social interaction trick. - No it's not: its a trick that let's you feint versus multiple opponents, thus making them all succeptible to your 'cloaked casting' ability. Level 7: Second Impression - social interaction trick. (retry a blown disguise: could be a life saver for the infiltrating Beguiler) Level 9: Swift Concentration* - concentration checks are a swift action, allowing you to maintain an illusion spell and cast another. Level 11: Clarity of Vision (make spot check to see invisibilty for one round) Level 13: Timely Misdirection - social interaction trick. No it's not: it let's you avoid AoO's Level 15: False Theurgy - mask your illusion spells against arcane casters, but requires ranks in Spellcraft.
#139 amatulic May 11, 2007 23:02:33	OK, I corrected the Collar description, and filled in the holes you identified in the list of skill tricks. Interesting; you were asking earlier about the usefulness of Surprise Casting at low levels. Combined with the Group Fake-Out skill trick (assuming you're stuck in melee and must feint) it could be pretty useful even at low levels. I also incorporated your Advanced Learning spell list. -A
#140 bloodychariot May 12, 2007 18:02:36	speaking of advanced learning, there's a really nice 5th level spell in complete adventurer (p. 156) called "shadow form" (Illus(Shadow)). it gives you bonuses to escape artist, hide, and move silently, and it gives you concealment too. but the real kicker is that, if you have enough ranks in escape artist, it allows you to move through up to 10 feet of solid objects or barriers, as well as magical force.
#141 nicholas_the_paladin May 14, 2007 1:26:39	Interesting; you were asking earlier about the usefulness of Surprise Casting at low levels. Combined with the Group Fake-Out skill trick (assuming you're stuck in melee and must feint) it could be pretty useful even at low levels. the reason I proposed this skilltrick at 5th level (the earliest option), is that at 6th level (when Surprise Casting is a move action) you could right away combine the two ....so actually it is more fitting that this skilltrick is choosen at 6th level. speaking of advanced learning, there's a really nice 5th level spell in complete adventurer (p. 156) called "shadow form" (Illus(Shadow)). it gives you bonuses to escape artist, hide, and move silently, and it gives you concealment too. but the real kicker is that, if you have enough ranks in escape artist, it allows you to move through up to 10 feet of solid objects or barriers, as well as magical force.. I know of this spell, like it and find it fitting for the beguiler. But I recall that the amount of ranks in 'escape artist' must be 10 orso. For me that would be too much. I won't use this skill for anything else, but for this spell (at leats that's my beguiler concept).
#142 bloodychariot May 14, 2007 4:46:06	also, concerning Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil): investing essentia doesn't increase the DC of illusion spells, only their duration (unless they're instantaneous). it still does +1 DC though, and that's always nice. EDIT: added the following: I know of this spell, like it and find it fitting for the beguiler. But I recall that the amount of ranks in 'escape artist' must be 10 orso. For me that would be too much. I won't use this skill for anything else, but for this spell (at leats that's my beguiler concept). yeah, and i just remembered that swift etherealness will produce the same effect.
#143 thawmus May 14, 2007 8:39:03	speaking of advanced learning, there's a really nice 5th level spell in complete adventurer (p. 156) called "shadow form" (Illus(Shadow)). it gives you bonuses to escape artist, hide, and move silently, and it gives you concealment too. but the real kicker is that, if you have enough ranks in escape artist, it allows you to move through up to 10 feet of solid objects or barriers, as well as magical force. That's a nice find, but I don't know that I'll want to learn that instead of Shadow Evocation at that time. I guess it depends on what you want to do with the class. I can see myself taking Shadow Form and having a TON of fun with it..... But at the same time, my party needs a damage-dealing arcanist, so that's what I'm going to give them. With Freedom of Movement, this spell would be the only reason to have ranks in Escape Artist anyways. Still an awesome spell, however.
#144 amatulic May 14, 2007 11:14:32	also, concerning Shape Soulmeld (Illusion Veil): investing essentia doesn't increase the DC of illusion spells, only their duration (unless they're instantaneous). Thanks for pointing that out. I have fixed the description. The +1 bonus to DC is an insight bonus, though, which would stack with Spell Focus. the reason I proposed this skilltrick at 5th level (the earliest option), is that at 6th level (when Surprise Casting is a move action) you could right away combine the two ....so actually it is more fitting that this skilltrick is choosen at 6th level. Good idea. The only thing that bothers me is the implication that you have to be in melee with multiple opponents (i.e. threatening multiple opponents) to use this. At least for the beguiler I built (a frail little guy) this isn't an attractive prospect, but useful in emergencies I guess. ---- I want to thank everyone who posted here (especially Nicholas the Paladin, who provided the most advice and help) in making this Beguiler's Handbook what it is. I think it's mostly finished, finally! ...but it'll get tweaked as new suggestions come in. -A
#145 nicholas_the_paladin May 15, 2007 1:19:27	Good idea. The only thing that bothers me is the implication that you have to be in melee with multiple opponents (i.e. threatening multiple opponents) to use this. At least for the beguiler I built (a frail little guy) this isn't an attractive prospect, but useful in emergencies I guess. True. This is indeed for the cases that you cannot cast from hiding or while invisible. But those circumstances will occur. Spending 2 skillpoints on a skilltrick that is good to have, isn't too much asked. ---- I want to thank everyone who posted here (especially Nicholas the Paladin, who provided the most advice and help) in making this Beguiler's Handbook what it is. I think it's mostly finished, finally! ...but it'll get tweaked as new suggestions come in. -A You're not leaving are you? Not while we're having such fun ;) Some more suggestions: maybe we could think about combattactics (depending on the situation) or; maybe what skills are most usefull for what kind of beguiler roles; has anybody taken a good look in the Magic Item Compendium? ...etc All it takes is an idea for a topic and the boardcommunity can fill in the blanks.
#146 thawmus May 15, 2007 15:36:05	If we want to talk about combat tactics, I'd like to mention a few for your levels prior to getting Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation: Blinding Color Surge. I don't think that I need to mention what an awesome spell this is, but what the hell, this is the optimization forum, so I'll indulge. Right off the bat, no matter what you're facing, hit the monster/person with Blinding Color Surge. The absolute WORST case scenario is that you turn invisible. The Best case scenario is that they are blinded as well. Which means that your fellow rogues, spellthieves, and beguilers are going to get the drop on him, FAST. After that round, you can spend several rounds casting buffs (if necessary, which they usually aren't), or casting other spells to REALLY mess up the target. Or to be a pure pain, cast Blinding Color Surge AGAIN. Because you're invisible (and hopefully you're moving silently away from wherever you cast last round), you'll get your Cloak Casting bonus to your DC, which just makes it even harder to resist. It's a bit of a "Hide in plain sight" tactic, but it works wonders. Minor Image/Major Image/Mirror Image/Ghost Sound. This can draw all sorts of attention from opponents, giving your allies the opportunity to get some nice flanking going on, not to mention increase the number of targets, and decrease the # of true strikes. You should always have a few traps handy to use in conjunction with these spells. They're perfect bait for many nasty traps you can set up. Distract Assailant. This is something you should pick up with the first Advanced Learning. It's a spell out of Complete Adventurer, that has saved my spellthieves more times than I can count, and it's made my Beguiler particularly dangerous. It's a 1st swift action spell that can cause a monster/person to be considered flat-footed for one round. In conjunction with the cloaked casting ability, not to mention the Beguiler's low BAB (in case he actually wants to try attacking them), this is very nice. It'll increase the DC of the Beguiler's spells against that foe, and give them an easier AC to hit.
#147 amatulic May 15, 2007 23:16:41	You're not leaving are you? Not while we're having such fun ;) I'm not leaving. I just wanted to recognize the fact that this Beguiler Handbook has finally reached a state of reasonable completeness. I created this Handbook partly for preparing a backup character for the current game I'm playing. I thought I'd be playing him by now, because my original character (forsaker scout with rather crippled abilities) wasn't expected to survive the last session, but he did. When I finally do get to bring in my beguiler, I'll probably find things to change and add to this Handbook. If we want to talk about combat tactics, I'd like to mention a few for your levels prior to getting Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation:... Wow. That's excellent. I've been toying with adding a tactics section to the handbook. Now I have something to start with. Thanks. I'll start working on it. Would you elaborate on the bit about "having a few traps handy" with the image spells? -A
#148 nicholas_the_paladin May 16, 2007 1:51:38	If we want to talk about combat tactics, I'd like to mention a few for your levels prior to getting Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation:. THis gave me another idea, besides explaining how you tactically use certain spells, we could also explain tactics 'by level.' At 4th level the Beguiler gets 2nd level spells, altering his approach to combat drastically. At 6th, 8th , 10th (and further) levels, the spell-level increase will also change how the beguiler approaches combat. the same could be said for the abilities the beguiler gets at certain levels, but these are less profound. Abilities like 'still spell', 'silent spell' and 'cloaked casting (move action)' coudl change your tactics, but they haven't got *that* much impact. What ofcourse *does* have impact is making good use of your 'cloaked casting' ability. So what I'm suggesting is: Combat tactic by level: from 1st level: - relevant combatspells: color spray, sleep, ....etc - use of spells: 1) color spray: you walk over to the chap you want to stun by hiding (if possible)......etc 2) .... from 4th level: - relevant combatspells: blinding color surge, ...etc - use of spells: 1) blinding color surge: ......etc 2) .... from 6th level: - relevant combatspells: ...etc maybe you could do something about the layout, but you get my point. Is this a good idea? (the downside is, that this requires a LOT of space, since explaining tactics for each spel takes alot of words) Blinding Color Surge. I don't think that I need to mention what an awesome spell this is, but what the hell, this is the optimization forum, so I'll indulge. After that round, you can spend several rounds casting buffs (if necessary, which they usually aren't), or casting other spells to REALLY mess up the target. Or to be a pure pain, cast Blinding Color Surge AGAIN. Because you're invisible (and hopefully you're moving silently away from wherever you cast last round), you'll get your Cloak Casting bonus to your DC, which just makes it even harder to resist.. Hmm, I'm not *that* impressed with the spell that I want to cast over and over. The 1 round blindness is just a nice 'side effect' for you invisibility. That's it. Minor Image/Major Image/Mirror Image/Ghost Sound. This can draw all sorts of attention from opponents, giving your allies the opportunity to get some nice flanking going on, not to mention increase the number of targets, and decrease the # of true strikes. You should always have a few traps handy to use in conjunction with these spells. They're perfect bait for many nasty traps you can set up.. With this line of spell is the hardest to come up with tactics, since the spells are so enormously versatile. I think that when you give tactic, it should have some concreteness. Distract Assailant. This is something you should pick up with the first Advanced Learning. It's a spell out of Complete Adventurer, that has saved my spellthieves more times than I can count, and it's made my Beguiler particularly dangerous. It's a 1st swift action spell that can cause a monster/person to be considered flat-footed for one round. In conjunction with the cloaked casting ability, not to mention the Beguiler's low BAB (in case he actually wants to try attacking them), this is very nice. It'll increase the DC of the Beguiler's spells against that foe, and give them an easier AC to hit. this is indeed a good spell, but I've got my eye on another spell 'net of shadows'. But that alo because of the flair it has for me. But discussing 'advanced learning' is not on my mind at this moment (Amatulic, this spell is indeed worthy of your handbook. But i see it mainly as a spell that wil pay of at higher levels (when spellslots are many and cloaked casting is stronger))
#149 nicholas_the_paladin May 16, 2007 3:55:58	Besides Minbender, my favorite one level dip-PrC is 'Shadow adept' (PGtF), which I will probably take. The reason is that it gives you 3 great feats for a low cost. The one that isn't given its proper due in the handbook yet is the feat 'insidious magic'. What's so great about this feat is, that it requires the caster of detect magic but also divination spell like 'true seeing' (the bane of every illusionist!!) to make a caster level check (11+you caster level !) in order to see though illusions (it also hides other auras, but that's not the point of this post). So this makes spells like: - the image spells - disguise self - blur - invisibility - mirror image - displacement...etc ...much harder to see through. They works (lets say) 50 % of the times against such spells. That's a pretty hardhanded backslap against those sleezy spoiler spells, that have made life hell for illusionists. In other words,... I love it.
#150 Arem_K May 16, 2007 6:54:29	Also, if you do not have a rogue in group, is beguiler good enough to act as main trap monkey? I realize that you will have better bonuses to Search and Disarm with maxed out Int and Insightful Reflexes can help with Reflex saves, but is that enough? Will you sorely miss Evasion? -dm I would say that a beguiler is a much better trapmonkey than a rogue. A beguiler will have a higher INT, which means that he has a much better chance of finding and disarming traps. The beguiler can also spend the money that a rogue needs for a decent weapon on stuff that boosts his skills. If you happen to set the trap off, I would say that the beguiler and rogue have an equal chance of survival. The rogue has a high reflex save, evasion, and trap sense. Because of that, a rogue will probably never take damage from a trap that requires a reflex save. Trap sense will also probably give them a slight advantage against traps which rely on an attack roll. The rogue has no good defenses against traps which work against the fort save, will save, or do not give the opportunity to save. The beguiler has two defenses against traps, his high will save and his spells. His high will save protects him against traps which fire spells that are will save based. These are probably are not as common as the reflex save traps (less of the DMG examples are of this type) but the effects can be far more severe. You will be very happy when you make your save against a dominate, planseshift, or disjunction trap. A beguiler can also escape from certain traps with spells like freedom of movement or swift etherealness. The second one is a great counter to the traps which involve the walls slowly moving in or that crazy trap which thrusts you into a cage (a forcecage no less) match with a hamatula. The rogue's defenses against traps are more likely to trigger than the beguiler's, but a beguiler has is better at surviving the traps that a rogue is good against than the rogue is at surviving a beguiler's favored traps.
#151 Xeraph May 16, 2007 7:04:56	For my first Advanced Lerning I took Swift Invisibility. Sure I am high enough level to cast both Blindind Color Surge and Invisibility, it is just too handy to be able to dissapear every round. It sure saved my hide a few times.
#152 nicholas_the_paladin May 16, 2007 7:35:05	For my first Advanced Lerning I took Swift Invisibility. . How? It's an Ass2 or Brd1 spell from SpC. It needs to be a sorc/wiz spell.
#153 thawmus May 16, 2007 8:28:53	Hmm, I'm not *that* impressed with the spell that I want to cast over and over. The 1 round blindness is just a nice 'side effect' for you invisibility. That's it. I dunno. When I'm casting it on a CR 8 monster that gets 5 attacks, and all of them miss thanks to the 50% miss chance, I'm going to be pretty pumped about casting it again. That's just me. (This has happened on two occasions already, with my level 5 Beguiler.) With this line of spell is the hardest to come up with tactics, since the spells are so enormously versatile. I think that when you give tactic, it should have some concreteness. Sure you can. It's just that there's about a gazillion different tactics you can use. Just because there IS a tactic, doesn't mean it's the only answer to an encounter. For example, you could have the party construct a nasty exploding trap in a corridor, and then cast Major Image right there on the trigger, and duck around the corner. The Major Image will pretty much be perfect bait. Is that the only way to use those spells? Of course not.
#154 Xeraph May 16, 2007 8:39:58	How? It's an Ass2 or Brd1 spell from SpC. It needs to be a sorc/wiz spell. Hmm... good point. Guess I need to read up on my Beguiler rules then eh?
#155 Arem_K May 16, 2007 9:29:28	I dunno. When I'm casting it on a CR 8 monster that gets 5 attacks, and all of them miss thanks to the 50% miss chance, I'm going to be pretty pumped about casting it again. That's just me. (This has happened on two occasions already, with my level 5 Beguiler.) While we are talking about tactics, I have to say that that is the less than optimum way to use blindness. The really exciting thing about blindness is not the fifty percent miss chance, it is the fact that your opponent can no longer see you. Don't stand right next to him and make it easy, grab a polearm or bow and start plinking away. Make him waste all his turns trying to figure at what square you are in.
#156 thawmus May 16, 2007 10:15:57	While we are talking about tactics, I have to say that that is the less than optimum way to use blindness. The really exciting thing about blindness is not the fifty percent miss chance, it is the fact that your opponent can no longer see you. Don't stand right next to him and make it easy, grab a polearm or bow and start plinking away. Make him waste all his turns trying to figure at what square you are in. That's a good idea for your friendlies, but not for you. Keep in mind that you're also granting yourself invisibility for as many rounds as you have levels in Beguiler. So it's best to just summon up some illusions (other than mirror image) to do double the trouble. My Grey Elf Beguiler, while level 4, spotted a Gorillion that was picking on some travelers. So immediately, I cast Blinding Color Surge on him. Since he didn't see me coming, I got a fantastic DC for him to throw against, and he failed. After which, he was blind, and I was invisible. My fellow party members charged into him without penalty, while I just laughed in the back and taunted him. Then he attacked, and missed all of his attacks. Since the party pretty much surrounded him, his fight was pretty much over. It didn't even come back to my initiative. After the session, I asked the DM, who is a good friend of mine, how helpful I had really been in that fight (I'm constantly trying to gauge if I'm actually contributing). He told me that if any two of his attacks had hit a character together, they'd probably be dead. He had amplified the Gorillion's strength score significantly. So I had pretty much saved several characters with simple Blinding Color Surge. Are there better options for getting the blinding? Sure. But they're not nearly as good for an opening trick. Color Surge, THEN do what you want to do, and get cloaked casting bonuses for whatever it is you want to do. And your party will thank you.
#157 amatulic May 21, 2007 0:42:01	I've got my eye on another spell 'net of shadows'. I'm trying to figure out how one would use this. It doesn't give any advantage to your allies in melee with the enemy (i.e. 5 feet away); they have as much difficulty seeing the enemy as the enemy has to see your allies. And for ranged attacks it forces a miss chance. The only benefit I can see is for area-effect spells cast later, because you know the general area of location of your foes. Is that what you had in mind? -A
#158 nicholas_the_paladin May 21, 2007 1:38:26	@Thawnus, The situation you're describing is not what we were discussing. We all see the bonus of one round blindness besides being invisible. We just ddn't agree with you casting a 2nd level spell over and over again just to gain that 1 extra round of blindness each time you cast the spell I'm trying to figure out how one would use this. It doesn't give any advantage to your allies in melee with the enemy (i.e. 5 feet away); they have as much difficulty seeing the enemy as the enemy has to see your allies. And for ranged attacks it forces a miss chance. The only benefit I can see is for area-effect spells cast later, because you know the general area of location of your foes. Is that what you had in mind? -A I have 3 reasons: 1. "battlefield control" the first few rounds (like blindness !) 2. shadow = not mindaffecting 3. (other way around) concealment for yourself and friendlies when in danger. 1: this spell works well against groups. You pick (lets say) 3 targets and you have a good chance that for a few rounds they're occupied finding you, while you beat up their friends. (you don't want to engage them, just let them and finish them of later) 2. many of your spell are mindaffecting. This spell will be effective versus undead/oozes/constructs etc 3. I have a somewhat roguish group: need a quick few seconds to hide in order to excape the passing guard? cast 'net of shadows' on yourself and your friends and you're allowed a Hide-check even against darkvision That's it. If I stretch it a bit, I would even say that our party rogue fighting a warrior (under influence of 'net of shadows') *will* have the 20% miss-chance (so will the warrior)....but maybe will be allowed a Hide-check (because of concealment) increasing the miss-chance of the warrior to 50% ánd gaining Sneak Attack. Does that sound as a good idea?
#159 zombiegleemax May 21, 2007 11:29:15	If I stretch it a bit, I would even say that our party rogue fighting a warrior (under influence of 'net of shadows') *will* have the 20% miss-chance (so will the warrior)....but maybe will be allowed a Hide-check (because of concealment) increasing the miss-chance of the warrior to 50% ánd gaining Sneak Attack. Does that sound as a good idea? any concealment negates sneak attack attempts. "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment" from SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
#160 thawmus May 21, 2007 11:42:59	@Thawnus, The situation you're describing is not what we were discussing. We all see the bonus of one round blindness besides being invisible. We just ddn't agree with you casting a 2nd level spell over and over again just to gain that 1 extra round of blindness each time you cast the spell I can understand that. The point, however, isn't so much to blind the creature as it is to constantly affect him and remain invisible. It's more of a self-preservation thing than anything else. I will admit that I haven't used that spell twice in a row, however. I've used it about 3 rounds after I initially cast it, but that's about it.
#161 nicholas_the_paladin May 22, 2007 1:20:01	any concealment negates sneak attack attempts. "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment" from SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm Okay. I was right in making it a sidenote. But still, a roguish character might win a 50% miss-chance of his opponent versus his 20% miss. But that was not the reason I liked this spell so much. It's the versatility of being able to 'blind' a few opponents and hide yourself when nescecary.
#162 varia May 22, 2007 9:01:22	I want to recommend adding the spell "entice gift" from SC to the advanced learning options for the beguiler. Too much fun when used on major (hopefully low will save) enemy melee combatants. Not only deprives them of their weapon but also pulls them through your lines to come give you your gift, which will likely inundate them with aoo from your frontline types. Then you run away and giggle in an unseemly fashion as the victim goes "waaaaaaaaitaminute.....". Some possible beguiler combo cheese for high levels- Eschew material components, plus wind walk from a friendly cleric, and run around as a stealth cloud casting overwhelm (and your other KO spells) on unsuspecting passers-by. Costs you an extra 2 spell levels per spell cast, but well worth it in the right situations.
#163 nicholas_the_paladin May 22, 2007 9:52:48	I want to recommend adding the spell "entice gift" from SC to the advanced learning options for the beguiler. Too much fun when used on major (hopefully low will save) enemy melee combatants. Not only deprives them of their weapon but also pulls them through your lines to come give you your gift, which will likely inundate them with aoo from your frontline types. Then you run away and giggle in an unseemly fashion as the victim goes "waaaaaaaaitaminute.....". . I don't get it. It's just for one opponent, for one round. I don't see the usefullness in combat for this spell. OUt of combat it could be different, though And it's a 2nd level spell....occupying a 3rd/4th level Advanced learning slot. Am I missing something here?
#164 varia May 22, 2007 17:24:16	I don't get it. It's just for one opponent, for one round. I don't see the usefullness in combat for this spell. OUt of combat it could be different, though And it's a 2nd level spell....occupying a 3rd/4th level Advanced learning slot. Am I missing something here? Yes, I think you are missing something. I shall try to 'splain. It is "only" for one round, but really, how long does it have to be for? It makes the target likely eat multiple attacks of opportunity in getting to you to give you his weapon, renders him disarmed (at least of his best and preferred weapon), and puts him behind enemy lines away from any support he may have where he will likely be promptly flanked and chopped to bits, if the AoOs did do it in the first place. It seriously hoses their tactical position which will get them killed, and fast. The spell only lasts 1 round, but the effects last a lifetime for the target (usually 1.1 rounds... :P). It uses the lvl 3 learning slot, yes, but unless you have delayed that advanced learning with a dip in another class till you can use it for a lvl 4 spell there arent that many other great choices for it anyway. There are some other useful choices, but nothing that screams "must have". I havent investigated whether or not there are any "must have" lvl 4 spells since my beguiler cohort is a single-class beguiler and it wasnt relevant to me. Its a lvl 2 spell, which becomes noticeably more important as levels increase and you have other, more important uses for your lvl 3 spells (haste and displacement especially), so you arent faced with an either/or situation. And, of course, its just fun. Heroism and Ray of Dizziness may also be good choices, depending on your particular campaign and what books are allowed, but Entice Gift certainly has its place as a possible choice.
#165 whitishknight May 24, 2007 14:10:54	What illusion spells would make it seem as if parts of the floor were falling away? I say this because, if the enemy believes they are on a narrow platform (i.e. needing a balance check) they may lose their DEX to AC bonus. Would this work?
#166 amatulic May 24, 2007 21:29:21	What illusion spells would make it seem as if parts of the floor were falling away? I say this because, if the enemy believes they are on a narrow platform (i.e. needing a balance check) they may lose their DEX to AC bonus. Would this work? The vertigo spell does something like this, although it's mind-affecting, not illusion. Seems like you'd need a glamer-type spell you cast on the floor, like the illusion of an open trapdoor or something. I don't know of any, though. -A
#167 rauric May 24, 2007 22:55:06	What would be the best gestalt beguiler build if you could never multiclass or get prestige classes with the beguiler side of the gestalt. In the games we play the DMs make us choose a gestalt class and our normal class. We can never multiclass with that gestalt class.
#168 zombiegleemax May 24, 2007 22:59:45	Warmage X/Incantarix 10 focus on lots of fun metamagic u can blast and control battlefield always seemed like a fun build ta me
#169 crash169 May 25, 2007 1:13:49	I'm currently playing a 2nd level beguiler and I'm having trouble being creative enough in combat situations. I usually start combat with using either; sleep, daze, or color spray, depending on the opponents. I know that many of the other spells can be used in combat to help create distractions and such, but I'm having trouble using them when I get the opportunity. So I was wondering if you fellow boards member could challenge yourselves with these four spells: Charm Person, Hypnotism, Silent image, ghost sound. I have used silent image as a mirror image in combat to help avoid attacks. I have also used it in combat to create a pile of gold to goad enemies into being ambushed. I haven't found any use for hypnotism in combat as of yet, but I know it's good for something! As for charm, I haven't exactly used it in combat yet. But I know it can be done with the right amount of creativity. I was also wondering; If I were to surprise cast a spell like charm person and the target didn't know I was in the room, or around at all, would they still get the +4 save bonus for being involved in combat? I really enjoy what you guys did here. It's definitely an exceptional class, and deserved a proper handbook. You all get a
#170 nicholas_the_paladin May 25, 2007 2:18:03	I'm currently playing a 2nd level beguiler and I'm having trouble being creative enough in combat situations. I play a 3rd level beguiler and I know that 2nd level and especially 3rd level can be a bit hard (I'm eager to get to 4th level) I usually start combat with using either; sleep, daze, or color spray, depending on the opponents. I know that many of the other spells can be used in combat to help create distractions and such, but I'm having trouble using them when I get the opportunity. So I was wondering if you fellow boards member could challenge yourselves with these four spells: Charm Person, Hypnotism, Silent image, ghost sound. I haven't used charm person in combat yet. I usually use this spell to avoid combat or to get into my sneakster role as an infiltrator etc. i was a bit doubtfull of the Hypnotism spell, but had some good times with it. the only bad thing about it is, that it has a 2d4HD cap, so you have to choose your target carefully. What i did untill now is, that I gave the command to move a certain direction (provoking AoO's) and lay down on the ground. Is that a 'reasonable request' (as per spell) ? I'm not completely sure, but we did it anyways. After that the taregt is fascinated for 2d4rounds (lying on the ground?).... it's somehwat of a puzzle this spell, but this way it works perfectly (although it might be a bit stretched). The image spells are always good to have around, but require a clear thought. Usually i think about 2 things: 1. what is the goal i want to achieve 2. what kind of illusion woudl make this happen Goals can be like:I want this guy to move away (goad it), I want these guys to stay put while my freinds regroup of buff (create wall, pit, etc). I want us to approach unnoticed (create fog/mist). I usually just imagine what i think we need at that time and make an illusion up. (I love it) Ghost soudn is usually just to enhance an silent illusion. Or I use it to goad or distract opponents. I was also wondering; If I were to surprise cast a spell like charm person and the target didn't know I was in the room, or around at all, would they still get the +4 save bonus for being involved in combat? If it's in combat with your friends, and it didn't see you, ...it woudl still get the +4
#171 crash169 May 27, 2007 2:30:33	Thanks for the reply. I was reading hypnotism and it says that it increases the targets attitude towards you by two steps. Considering that in battle they would be hostile.. Their new attitude would be indifferent right? After that you get to lay down one brief request.. What kind of request would somebody that is indifferent follow? On the "Influencing NPC'S Attitudes" chart, it says: Attitude: indifferent Means: Doesn't much care Possible actions: Socially expected reaction What does "Socially expected reaction" even mean?
#172 nicholas_the_paladin May 29, 2007 1:19:26	Thanks for the reply. I was reading hypnotism and it says that it increases the targets attitude towards you by two steps. Considering that in battle they would be hostile.. Their new attitude would be indifferent right? After that you get to lay down one brief request.. What kind of request would somebody that is indifferent follow? I asked myself the *exact* same question and started a link about it. I didn't get a clear answer to it, so I focussed simply on the second part of that paragraph. "THis makes it possible to make a single request of the affected creature." Because the spelldescripion is such a jumble, I simplefied the spell into: - make one reasonable request (moving somwhere is reasonable, but asking a 'indifferent' creature to attack it's fellow isn't) - the target remains 'fascinated' for the remainder of the 2d4-rounds.
#173 feeb May 30, 2007 12:19:25	Any thoughts on the Rebuke spells as candidates for advanced learning? The level seven verison is your basic save or die spell.
#174 nicholas_the_paladin May 31, 2007 1:41:07	Any thoughts on the Rebuke spells as candidates for advanced learning? The level seven verison is your basic save or die spell. It's a modest spell, that is mostly (sub par) effective versus spellcasters. But the real 'issue' is that it's 2nd level spell, filling up a 3rd or 4th level Advanced learning slot. This slot can be used in more effective ways.
#175 Nelyo May 31, 2007 17:11:40	I agree with you on Rebuke, but I think the more powerful versions might have some merit. Greater Rebuke takes someone out of combat for 1d4 rounds and inconviences a spellcaster for longer, and Final Rebuke is a "Save or die" or "Save and suck" spell. I like a spell that prevents my opponent from acting for a round no matter how good their Will save is. It's like solipsism (another level 7 advanced learning choice from the handbook), except if they fail the save they're dead instantly and it can't be dispelled, and if they make the save they still have something bad happen to them. Sounds like an effective use of that slot to me.
#176 thawmus Jun 01, 2007 11:02:57	I don't recall this being mentioned in either thread, so forgive me if it has been already..... But what about taking a solitary level of Swordsage? I know, it's a loss of spellcasting, but on the other hand.....if you take all of the Shadow Hand maneuvers, and the Child of Shadow stance, you can do some pretty wicked things, and have concealment so long as you move at least 10 ft. per round. (although it is noted in the stance that it doesn't allow you to hide in plain sight) On top of this, and this is where it gets particularly good, while in your Shadow Hand stances, if you pick up the Shadow Trickster feat, you get a +1 to the DC of your illusion spells. In a way, it's kinda a draw to have no spellcasting progression by doing this, because it won't mess up your advanced learning if you're doing the 1 level dip to get higher level spells. I don't know that this idea is very optimized, but it could give you some bonuses and abilities that won't cost you spells to cast (Besides the slots you're sacrificing for the level), and grant you an even higher DC for your illusion spells. EDIT: Actually, in the long description, the feat adds a +2 to the DC of your illusion spells. Also, another idea I had, which would hog three feats to do, is to take the Martial Study feat at 12th level, thereby granting you a maneuver from the Shadow Hand discipline, thereby getting a 3rd level shadow hand boost or counter, which could prove useful. Also, you'd have the pre-requisites for your feat at 15th level, which is Martial Stance. At that point, you could pick up a 4th level (I think) Shadow Hand stance, which you could just stay in all darn day long. Then at 18th level, pick up the Shadow Trickster feat, and boost the DC of your illusion spells by 2. Cloak of Deception is a great 2nd level boost, that's pretty much Swift Greater Invisibility. This could make your cloaked casting come into play a LOT, without sacrificing any spells at all. And either Child of Shadow or Dance of the Spider make for good stances. At that high of a level, the Beguiler may not really care about casting spider climb, but not having to do it at all could be nice, especially in a combat situation. Sticking to walls and ceilings while casting spells with your free hand could be a very nasty tactic, especially if you can be doing it in your first round already. That takes three feats to do, and at high levels, no less. But you get three very nice bonuses out of it that assist the Beguiler a great deal, without any spell loss. On a personal note: My Grey Elf Beguiler has two flaws, so at 5th level, he already has Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for Enchantment and Illusion spells. So I'm not starving for feats at this point.
#177 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 04, 2007 1:53:17	But what about taking a solitary level of Swordsage? I know, it's a loss of spellcasting, but on the other hand.....if you take all of the Shadow Hand maneuvers, and the Child of Shadow stance, you can do some pretty wicked things, and have concealment so long as you move at least 10 ft. per round. (although it is noted in the stance that it doesn't allow you to hide in plain sight) SS?That's a novel idea, that takes some time to digest. I see that at least from a thematical point of view this meshes well. But a spellcasting loss is something that on higher levels doesn't do well. I'm not immpressed by the Child of Shadow stance, but see what you'r getting at. I somehow don't think you just can hide all the time when moving. Even when opponents haven't seen you yet, a moving cloud of shadow is something that's bond to be spotted. I think this spell is primarily for the 20% miss chance. On top of this, and this is where it gets particularly good, while in your Shadow Hand stances, if you pick up the Shadow Trickster feat, you get a +1 to the DC of your illusion spells. EDIT: Actually, in the long description, the feat adds a +2 to the DC of your illusion spells. That's indeed great. But +2 DC in itself isn't worth the loss in spellcasting-level IMHO. Cloak of Deception is a great 2nd level boost, that's pretty much Swift Greater Invisibility. This could make your cloaked casting come into play a LOT, without sacrificing any spells at all. Nice idea indeed. This will in fact add another +1 to your spell DC's. I could summarise that the 'Shadow Trickster feat' and 'Cloak of Deception' boost are somewhat worth it, making it: - PRO: more chance of cloaked casting, +2 DC from illusions - CON: must take feat, -1 casterlevel loss I wouldn't do it. But hey, that's just me.
#178 neyvn Jun 04, 2007 7:21:53	hey whitish night, I think the spell your looking for is illusionary pit, from the spell compendium
#179 thawmus Jun 04, 2007 7:51:11	SS?That's a novel idea, that takes some time to digest. I see that at least from a thematical point of view this meshes well. But a spellcasting loss is something that on higher levels doesn't do well. I'm not immpressed by the Child of Shadow stance, but see what you'r getting at. I somehow don't think you just can hide all the time when moving. Even when opponents haven't seen you yet, a moving cloud of shadow is something that's bond to be spotted. I think this spell is primarily for the 20% miss chance. That's indeed great. But +2 DC in itself isn't worth the loss in spellcasting-level IMHO. Nice idea indeed. This will in fact add another +1 to your spell DC's. I could summarise that the 'Shadow Trickster feat' and 'Cloak of Deception' boost are somewhat worth it, making it: - PRO: more chance of cloaked casting, +2 DC from illusions - CON: must take feat, -1 casterlevel loss I wouldn't do it. But hey, that's just me. Well, in hindsight, the one level dip into swordsage isn't worth it. Getting the martial maneuver at 6th level as a feat, and the stance later as a feat, could be very beneficial, however. Because the Dance of the Spider stance allows you to have one free hand while climbing, unlike Spider Climb. Meaning you can cast with somatic components up on the ceiling. Which is a good self-preservation technique. Then you grab the Shadow Trickery feat, and have +2 to the DC of your illusion spells. All with no loss of spellcasting whatsoever. Matter of fact, you're not even casting to do this stuff.
#180 amatulic Jun 05, 2007 23:30:01	Well, in hindsight, the one level dip into swordsage isn't worth it. Getting the martial maneuver at 6th level as a feat, and the stance later as a feat, could be very beneficial, however. Because the Dance of the Spider stance allows you to have one free hand while climbing, unlike Spider Climb. Meaning you can cast with somatic components up on the ceiling. Which is a good self-preservation technique. Then you grab the Shadow Trickery feat, and have +2 to the DC of your illusion spells. Mind telling me in which books this stuff can be found? I'd like to add a note to the Beguiler Handbook article that started this thread. BTW, I finally got to play my beguiler a couple weeks ago. I brought him into the game as a 5th level character. He isn't really effective, though. He has 16 Int and Spell Focus (Illusion), and I haven't cast any enchantment spells because very few of his illusion spells are working. It's OK though, he was never meant to be optimal with his weak array of abilities. He's fun to role-play. -A
#181 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 06, 2007 1:15:26	BTW, I finally got to play my beguiler a couple weeks ago. I brought him into the game as a 5th level character. He isn't really effective, though. Aah, your got yourself a true taste of te beguiler (besides talking about it in theory) ;) I was hoping that this Thread gave plenty of ideas to be effective. He has 16 Int and Spell Focus (Illusion), ..... and I haven't cast any enchantment spells because very few of his illusion spells are working. I don't get this? Both type of spells aren't working? Or have you been casting enchantments spells a lot? BTW, You're 5th level; what is your other feat(s)? It's OK though, he was never meant to be optimal with his weak array of abilities. An INT of 16 isn't weak, the rest is nice to have. Just stay out of reach.;) How about: - vertigo (Ench) - welming blast (2d6 dam) (ench) - glitterdust (Conj) - color spray (Ill) - hypnotic pattern (Ill) ... as offensive spells (besides all the defensive stuff)
#182 friendlyfrog Jun 06, 2007 1:24:58	Mind telling me in which books this stuff can be found? Tome of Battle.
#183 amatulic Jun 06, 2007 8:43:57	Aah, your got yourself a true taste of te beguiler (besides talking about it in theory) ;) I was hoping that this Thread gave plenty of ideas to be effective. I don't get this? Both type of spells aren't working? Or have you been casting enchantments spells a lot? BTW, You're 5th level; what is your other feat(s)? Yes, this thread has proven useful, as as the original Beguiler Handbook that started it. My DC is higher for Illusion spells, and because they have been less than 50% effective so far, I have avoided casting Enchantment spells. Here's his outline: Race: Kender (not optimal but the DM and I agreed a year ago that I would bring a kender into the game, and the beguiler fits a kender's favored class of rogue) Stats: Str 6, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 6, Cha 13. Int started at 16 but I raised it by 1 at 4th level. Two flaws: Murky Eyed and Noncombatant. Feats: Nymph's Kiss, Spell Focus (Illusion), Force of Personality, Improved Initiative. Advanced Learning 1: Net of Shadows (this has been useful) An INT of 16 isn't weak, the rest is nice to have. Just stay out of reach.;) How about: - vertigo (Ench) - welming blast (2d6 dam) (ench) - glitterdust (Conj) - color spray (Ill) - hypnotic pattern (Ill) ... as offensive spells (besides all the defensive stuff) I have 5 2nd-level spells per day, no 3rd level spells. Had to use up my high level spells for invisibility a few times, knock, and mirror image. I have two 1st-level spells left, and we ended the session in the middle of a complex situation during our raid of a fort with less than 1/2 the day complete. The problem is that my character is in a group of 6th and 7th level characters, so the encounters have opponents with fairly high CR, so they are almost always able to succeed on their saves. So I'll have to wait until my character level catches up to the group, if he doesn't get killed first. As a kender, he's totally without fear, so he'll walk right up to any monster to taunt it and cast mischief-making spells. -A
#184 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 06, 2007 8:56:55	Yes, this thread has proven useful, as as the original Beguiler Handbook that started it. My DC is higher for Illusion spells, and because they have been less than 50% effective so far, I have avoided casting Enchantment spells. Here's his outline: Race: Kender (not optimal but the DM and I agreed a year ago that I would bring a kender into the game, and the beguiler fits a kender's favored class of rogue) Stats: Str 6, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 6, Cha 13. Int started at 16 but I raised it by 1 at 4th level. Two flaws: Murky Eyed and Noncombatant. Feats: Nymph's Kiss, Spell Focus (Illusion), Force of Personality, Improved Initiative. Advanced Learning 1: Net of Shadows (this has been useful) I have 5 2nd-level spells per day, no 3rd level spells. Had to use up my high level spells for invisibility a few times, knock, and mirror image. I have two 1st-level spells left, and we ended the session in the middle of a complex situation during our raid of a fort with less than 1/2 the day complete. The problem is that my character is in a group of 6th and 7th level characters, so the encounters have opponents with fairly high CR, so they are almost always able to succeed on their saves. So I'll have to wait until my character level catches up to the group, if he doesn't get killed first. As a kender, he's totally without fear, so he'll walk right up to any monster to taunt it and cast mischief-making spells. -A I think that on that level there are plenty of chances to beat an opponents Will-save: but sometimes the rolls are tough. A succescance of 50% isn;t that bad, since the spells can virtually knock an opponent out of the game. Don't base you idea of the beguiler on just one session. I'll get better next time (I've been reasonably succesfull till now) But if you're worried about the spell-DC of your spells, skipp 'Nymph's Kiss' and 'Impr Init' for 'SpellFocus-Enschantment' and 'Impr-spellfocus-Illusion '(i can see why you took 'Force of personality') besides that, I see the beguiler as being succesfull in surprising the opponent and getting them unaware. In combat your role is also to confuse (and sometimes protect/buff) and from 6th level you can buff even better. Those are my tactics (something you wanted to discuss I understand). I think you just need to get into your 'role' yet. So 'Net of Shadows' has been usefull, eh;)
#185 amatulic Jun 06, 2007 19:53:42	I think that on that level there are plenty of chances to beat an opponents Will-save: but sometimes the rolls are tough. A succescance of 50% isn;t that bad, since the spells can virtually knock an opponent out of the game. Well it's less than 50% and I was being generous. The problem here mostly has to do with me being the lowest-level character in the party, and the party is at a point in the campaign where a 5th level character isn't effective. Most of the party is 7th level. I'm 192 XP away from 6th now, so the situation will improve. But if you're worried about the spell-DC of your spells, skipp 'Nymph's Kiss' and 'Impr Init' for 'SpellFocus-Enschantment' and 'Impr-spellfocus-Illusion '(i can see why you took 'Force of personality') Too late to change now. I took Nymph's Kiss to buff up the Kender's taunt ability, bluff and other Charisma-based skills, and pickpocketing skills. That's the fun part about this race. He does a lot of taunting and picking the pockets of allies, causing all sorts of consternation in the party. Because kender take things without even being conscious of it, the DM will roll my Sleight of Hand check for me at random times, and at other times ask the players to roll Spot checks. Then the DM will eventually hand me a card saying "you have the scout's Amulet of Health +2" or "you have the cleric's spell component pouch." Then when it comes time for one of these players to need a missing item, hilarity ensues. I even bought a tank of helium to inhale and change my voice whenever I role-play the race. The race is great fun, and fits thematically with a mischievous beguiler (a bored kender is a dangerous thing). The players have figured out by now why they're rolling spot checks, so the Charisma-enhanced skills come in handy for interacting with players and NPCs - which is why I wanted Nymph's Kiss, to help the role-playing. You're right, I am still getting into the beguiler role. I'm unaccustomed to playing spellcasters so I don't yet have a good feel for the spellcasting tools and how to use them. So 'Net of Shadows' has been usefull, eh;) Yes, it was good for temporarily removing a couple of opponents from a larger bunch. -A
#186 thawmus Jun 07, 2007 8:55:46	Mind telling me in which books this stuff can be found? I'd like to add a note to the Beguiler Handbook article that started this thread. All of it is in ToB: Book of Nine Swords.
#187 thawmus Jun 07, 2007 9:04:54	Amatulic, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I think my 5th level beguiler has been largely successful due to his 21 INT (grey elf and an awesome roll), and having bonus feats from flaws, so he has spell focus and greater spell focus in both enchantment and illusion. My base DC is a 15, so a cloak-casted 2nd level enchantment spell has a DC of 20. They still make that save about half the time, but it's still nice to have. That aside, have you tried using Mirror Image? There's no save at all for your opponents, just a random roll to see if they attack the real you. This can make you very hard to hit, and you can distract quite a few monsters this way. Also, try using Blinding Color Surge a lot. This is kinda a "Well, if this doesn't work, something else is sure going to work next round...." When you cast it, they get a will save. If they miss, they're blind for one round, and you're invisible for many rounds. If they make it, you're just invisible for many rounds. Which means your next round, you'll have a higher DC for whatever you want to cast. The last 4 encounters I've been in lately, have been opened up by a Blinding Color Surge, and it's been hugely successful for me.
#188 amatulic Jun 07, 2007 10:43:35	I think my 5th level beguiler has been largely successful due to his 21 INT (grey elf and an awesome roll), and having bonus feats from flaws, so he has spell focus and greater spell focus in both enchantment and illusion. My base DC is a 15, so a cloak-casted 2nd level enchantment spell has a DC of 20. They still make that save about half the time, but it's still nice to have. Cool. I also have feats from flaws (see above) but my ability rolls weren't great. Gotta go with what I roll, though. I am having fun with him despite the weaknesses. Yes, I've used mirror image and blinding color surge. They worked well. Color spray worked pretty well also for stunning a couple foes for a round. Trouble is, with 16 INT I get 1 bonus spell/day, so I quickly use up my spells. Also, I wasn't satisfied with how my DM's NPCs reacted to Silent Image. They saw the kender cast the spell, and the NPCs knew that the kender race aren't good spellcasters, so the NPCs decided on their own to believe it was an illusion. I need to talk to my DM about that; he played the NPCs logically but not according to how the spell should work. -A
#189 thawmus Jun 07, 2007 12:38:13	Cool. I also have feats from flaws (see above) but my ability rolls weren't great. Gotta go with what I roll, though. I am having fun with him despite the weaknesses. Yes, I've used mirror image and blinding color surge. They worked well. Color spray worked pretty well also for stunning a couple foes for a round. Trouble is, with 16 INT I get 1 bonus spell/day, so I quickly use up my spells. Also, I wasn't satisfied with how my DM's NPCs reacted to Silent Image. They saw the kender cast the spell, and the NPCs knew that the kender race aren't good spellcasters, so the NPCs decided on their own to believe it was an illusion. I need to talk to my DM about that; he played the NPCs logically but not according to how the spell should work. -A If they see you casting a spell, they shouldn't automatically save just because you're not a spellcasting race. That'd be my feelings on that. I mean, they get a will save for disbelief. And if he wants to give them bonuses for determining that you can't summon a monster that big, then he should be having them roll spellcraft and knowledge checks. I would talk to him about how hard it's been for you with this character already, and to cut you some slack. If you were single-handedly commanding his monsters to jump off a high bridge, I'd understand some restraint. But at level 5, the nastiest thing you're doing is hiding well.
#190 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2007 13:09:26	...you're just invisible for many rounds. Which means your next round, you'll have a higher DC for whatever you want to cast. Why does being invisible increase your DC? I thought cloaked casting only kicks in when your opponent is flat footed. Please clarify, because if I'm wrong, thats AWESOME! (I don't have my books with me).
#191 thawmus Jun 07, 2007 13:30:02	Why does being invisible increase your DC? I thought cloaked casting only kicks in when your opponent is flat footed. Please clarify, because if I'm wrong, thats AWESOME! (I don't have my books with me). Your opponent is always flat-footed when you're invisible. It's in the PHB (forget what page), but it describes this on the combat bonuses/penalties chart. Obviously, if they can see invisibility, you're not going to get that bonus.
#192 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2007 13:42:48	Your opponent is always flat-footed when you're invisible. It's in the PHB (forget what page), but it describes this on the combat bonuses/penalties chart. Obviously, if they can see invisibility, you're not going to get that bonus. Thats not exactly right. They are not "flat-footed" but they do lose their dex bonus to AC, which might be enough. I can't remember the exact wording of the beguiler ability. SRD: "An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)" EDIT: It is enough. Here is the wording on Surprise Casting from wizard's site: Starting at 2nd level, your spells become more effective when you catch a foe unaware. The save DC (if any) for a beguiler spell improves by +1 if you cast it at a foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks. Thats good to know. I can't believe I didn't notice that and I just hit 10th level (started at 1 in Savage Tidings).
#193 thawmus Jun 07, 2007 14:12:58	Thats not exactly right. They are not "flat-footed" but they do lose their dex bonus to AC, which might be enough. I can't remember the exact wording of the beguiler ability. I'm always forgetting that a loss of dex bonus doesn't = flat-footed. I really wish they made that an easier concept than it is.
#194 amatulic Jun 07, 2007 23:13:56	If they see you casting a spell, they shouldn't automatically save just because you're not a spellcasting race. That'd be my feelings on that. I mean, they get a will save for disbelief. They don't even get that, unless they try to interact with the image. That's what I need to explain to my DM. They should react as if the image were real, until they interact with it. I would talk to him about how hard it's been for you with this character already, and to cut you some slack. I don't want slack. I have no complaints, really. With our six-player party being fought and chased by a horde of guards from multiple directions, he was trying to manage all his NPCs as well as the players, trying to keep things moving, so I can forgive him role-playing his NPCs as having prior knowledge of my race rather than making them roll knowledge checks and such. He's fair, too; after last session he pulled me aside and told me to add an extra 300 XP to my total for the good job I did role-playing. I will talk to him about how my spells should work, though. -A
#195 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 08, 2007 1:38:17	Also, I wasn't satisfied with how my DM's NPCs reacted to Silent Image. They saw the kender cast the spell, and the NPCs knew that the kender race aren't good spellcasters, so the NPCs decided on their own to believe it was an illusion. What? That's nonsense. That's metagaming *and* breaking the rules. This kind of attitude versus illusions, has stopped many gamer in fully enjoying the creativity of illusions. With illusions you're even more DM-dependant. DM's (and I'm one of them) should be more carefull. I need to talk to my DM about that; he played the NPCs logically but not according to how the spell should work. -A I read in your last post that you were alright with your DM, but he shouldn't have done this.
#196 zombiegleemax Jun 10, 2007 17:37:58	I have a question regarding some of the non-spellcasting abilities with the Beguiler. We already have a mage, cleric, ranger, and paladin...so we're pretty covered with the spellcasters. I've resigned myself to buff the party and not have damage spells. What I was wondering was, what is the consensus on the PrC Mountebank (Complete Scoundrel)? The requirements are Nonlawful (my character is chaotic good), 8 ranks in bluff, 4 ranks in spellcraft, and the feat Deceitful. The Class features are Tongue of the Devil, sneak attack, alter ego, sideslip - once per day you can use this to transfer your self from your current space to one 20 feet away, slippery mind - gains an extra save against enchantment spells, sudden escape - spend two uses of sideslip ability to cast dimension door instead.
#197 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 11, 2007 1:35:56	I have a question regarding some of the non-spellcasting abilities with the Beguiler. We already have a mage, cleric, ranger, and paladin...so we're pretty covered with the spellcasters. I've resigned myself to buff the party and not have damage spells. What I was wondering was, what is the consensus on the PrC Mountebank (Complete Scoundrel)? The requirements are Nonlawful (my character is chaotic good), 8 ranks in bluff, 4 ranks in spellcraft, and the feat Deceitful. The Class features are Tongue of the Devil, sneak attack, alter ego, sideslip - once per day you can use this to transfer your self from your current space to one 20 feet away, slippery mind - gains an extra save against enchantment spells, sudden escape - spend two uses of sideslip ability to cast dimension door instead. I know the PrC. It really fits a rogue or other non-spellcasting class better. The synergy between Beguiler and the Mounteback is nonexistent for what i know: how do you intend to buff your party, when the mounteback doens't have *any* spellcasting progression?
#198 thawmus Jun 11, 2007 7:45:21	I have a question regarding some of the non-spellcasting abilities with the Beguiler. We already have a mage, cleric, ranger, and paladin...so we're pretty covered with the spellcasters. I've resigned myself to buff the party and not have damage spells. What I was wondering was, what is the consensus on the PrC Mountebank (Complete Scoundrel)? The requirements are Nonlawful (my character is chaotic good), 8 ranks in bluff, 4 ranks in spellcraft, and the feat Deceitful. The Class features are Tongue of the Devil, sneak attack, alter ego, sideslip - once per day you can use this to transfer your self from your current space to one 20 feet away, slippery mind - gains an extra save against enchantment spells, sudden escape - spend two uses of sideslip ability to cast dimension door instead. You'd be wasting a lot of spell levels when you could instead be stacking your sneak attack damage with a rogue. Considering your party, however, I don't see how just a Beguiler wouldn't work. Sure, the rest of them can cast spells, but none of them can be as focused, and as a result, as potent with the enchantment and illusion spells. And your spells really aren't in competition with what they'd normally be casting. You're usually trying to blind the opponent, or charm them, or Dominate them, while they're buffing the party and throwing down Fireballs.
#199 zombiegleemax Jun 11, 2007 20:22:37	Thanks for the input guys. At first glance it looked really cool, however I agree that loosing caster levels is a big drawback. I think I'm going to stay straight Beguiler, instead of taking a PrC class. (we have the opportunity to 'fix' some of our original choices, different feats, moving skill points around in order to qualify for Prc classes, this ). Instead I'll invest my skill points into Skill Tricks to boost her even more. One thing I did want to mention...silent image is a great spell. I used it to create an image of a baby black dragon 400 ft away from the young red dragon when we had a run-in with it. I cast silent image and then ghost sound about 50 ft away (so it would look in that direction). It gave us enough time for me to cast invisibility on everyone and run as fast as we could out of there.
#200 thawmus Jun 11, 2007 22:18:02	Thanks for the input guys. At first glance it looked really cool, however I agree that loosing caster levels is a big drawback. I think I'm going to stay straight Beguiler, instead of taking a PrC class. (we have the opportunity to 'fix' some of our original choices, different feats, moving skill points around in order to qualify for Prc classes, this ). Instead I'll invest my skill points into Skill Tricks to boost her even more. Excellent call. As has been well documented by the OP, skill tricks were made for this class. For PrC, might I suggest the Mindbender for 1 level? Even if you don't take the Mindsight feat, (And frankly, you'll keep your DM from quitting if you don't take it.....), you'll put your advanced learning one level higher than it's supposed to be, allowing you access to more potent illusion and enchantment spells. One thing I did want to mention...silent image is a great spell. I used it to create an image of a baby black dragon 400 ft away from the young red dragon when we had a run-in with it. I cast silent image and then ghost sound about 50 ft away (so it would look in that direction). It gave us enough time for me to cast invisibility on everyone and run as fast as we could out of there. Absolute and total agreement. I kinda switch my tactics every encounter. Some encounters I go invisible, others I stand in the open and just stop all the action from coming near me with enchantment spells. But there's no question that the image spells are freakin' awesome.
#201 crash169 Jun 11, 2007 22:55:58	Ugh, I finally get to play a beguiler and the DM decides to call off the campaign. I was really working hard to try and get some of the important NPC's stuck in my web of lies. I only got to play about four sessions with him, it was really fun while it lasted. In combat I would be casting sleep, color spray, daze, and silent Image. Out of combat I would be going off on my own, turning certain members of the Merchants Guild against each other, demanding gold for the information I would cleverly fabricate on the spot. I felt like a real scoundrel. I would befriend tavern wenches and maids, just to use them to get information on the nobles that were staying for the night. I would harass well known women and matriarchal figures in the guise of other important men. I would hypnotize subdued enemies to get them to show my party to their hideouts. It would have been great fun to continue playing the character who's name was, Brutus "The Veiled" Omus. But the DM was tired of DMing, and I don't blame him. He did a great job for the past five years. It was time to pass the torch.
#202 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 12, 2007 1:54:42	@amatulic, I thought I'd give you an idea of the tactics I've used till now. I have to admit that I'm still 3rd level, so i have only used 1st level spells. The tactics are simply coming to this: - out of combat: manipulation (charm) - in combat: battlefieldcontroll !! For the latter I've mainly used the spells 'hypnotism', 'silent image', 'color spray', my pet-spell 'net of shadows' and the occasional 'sleep'. Hypnotism Thsi spell is perfect for battelfielcontroll. I usually use it the first roudn (Improv Init) of combat, in which I can use my 'cloaked casting' ability (+1 DC). What i usually do is cast the spell on one or two warrior/beastly types that i want out of the way (most are standing in the front). I kindly ask them to move to a designated (neutral) spot and lie down (prone). This way: - the warriors in my group get a clearer path towards the more interesting opponents - the duration of 2d4 rounds can be enough to move in for the kill of the 'hypnotised' creatures and when they get up, they get an additional AoO. (you can affect 2d4 HD, which at 3rd level is wiser to use on only one opponent) silent image I use is to confuse and stall opponents. Last session we were in a tough situation, since most of us were 'entangled' by an evil druid: it's companion was ripping us apart, while the druid was pounding us with spells. I used a silent image to create a boulder that blocked the tunnel the druid was standing in. He used a few round blasting away at the boulder (getting will-saves to disbelieve in the proces). But when he finally got through, his companion was taken care of, we coudl heal or stabalize some friends and then we all could focus on the druid. It saved our lives. I also use it to created darkness of mist to block line of sight, using a command word for my teammates to inform them of the illusion (will with +4 save) color spray When I can safely get up close (when our warriors are fighting in front of me), I use color spray to stun 1 or 2 opponents. This can be a very potent spell ! sleep I usually use the spell only when I can sneak up on my enemies, surprise them and I know their HD's aren't that high. I usually don't want to spend a full round on a spell that I know has a 4HD cap. (we are 3rd level, but our opponents can have 5 or 6 HD) Net of Shadows battlefield controll ! --> cloak creatures in shadows I use this to blind the warrior types (1 / level !) in order to get our warriors to their more vulnerable opponents. Or I use it to blind annoying archers. Or, when I feel lucky, I use it to blind spellcasters. It all depends on the layout of the battlefield and the oppportunities I see. I also use theis spell to conceal our party rogue and myself when we are up ahead scouting and happen to stumble upon something. In a nuttshell; that's about it.
#203 Todd Jun 12, 2007 11:39:01	In an Eberron game now and I wanted to add that Net of Shadows & Ebon Eyes were made for each other. My low level Beguiler has an Eternal Wand of Ebon Eyes ... which lets either him or his party members see through Net of Shadows. I most like letting our Rogue have the Ebon Eyes so that he can get SA damage on every attack he makes. He's a TWF type so the damage adds up fast.
#204 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 13, 2007 2:12:56	In an Eberron game now and I wanted to add that Net of Shadows & Ebon Eyes were made for each other. My low level Beguiler has an Eternal Wand of Ebon Eyes ... which lets either him or his party members see through Net of Shadows. I most like letting our Rogue have the Ebon Eyes so that he can get SA damage on every attack he makes. He's a TWF type so the damage adds up fast. Yesss !!! That was what i was looking for. 750 gp's for a wand this handy is okay (even though it requires the Rogue to make a Hide-check). But out of curiosity; handling a 1st level wand is (i think) a DC21 UMD check. Let's say you're a 3rd level beguiler with CHA 14; that leaves you with a maximum UMD-skill of 9. You have less then 50% chance of succes. How do you manage? Or does your party cleric/wizard handle the wand?
#205 antendren Jun 13, 2007 2:45:43	Eternal Wands aren't really wands in that way. Anyone who can cast arcane spells can use them.
#206 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 13, 2007 2:50:32	Eternal Wands aren't really wands in that way. Anyone who can cast arcane spells can use them. Eternal wands? That must be an Eberron thing.
#207 antendren Jun 13, 2007 3:05:50	Invented for the last war so that Magewrights could throw fireballs.
#208 cru Jun 13, 2007 6:37:42	Eternal wands? That must be an Eberron thing. I think they were reprinted in Spell Compendium.
#209 friendlyfrog Jun 13, 2007 7:14:13	I think they were reprinted in Spell Compendium. In Magic item compendium, you mean. Yes, they were originally from Eberron campaign setting, but MIC has made a lot of Eberron items campaign setting neutral.
#210 cru Jun 13, 2007 7:28:36	In Magic item compendium, you mean. Indeed. *blush*
#211 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 13, 2007 7:41:37	In Magic item compendium, you mean. Yes, they were originally from Eberron campaign setting, but MIC has made a lot of Eberron items campaign setting neutral. I haven't got the MIC yet. What is the price for a 1st levels spell 'Eternal Wand'?
#212 Todd Jun 13, 2007 8:42:22	820 gp. The spell in the eternal wand is useable 2/day ... and the item doesn't have charges.
#213 mikura Jun 13, 2007 21:05:03	I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread yet, but I wanted to add that this is my favorite class so far. when I was a kid (back in 1st edition...I know, old coot alert) I played Illusionists, and this class lets me get back to that but with a stronger pc. misdirection is a big help to the pc and party. I mentioned this elsewhere, but recently when pinned down behind a building I sent an image of me running across to one building and then snuck around the other way to get behind the enemy. thanks for all the suggestions on skill tricks and advance learning spells.
#214 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 14, 2007 2:21:19	In an Eberron game now and I wanted to add that Net of Shadows & Ebon Eyes were made for each other. My low level Beguiler has an Eternal Wand of Ebon Eyes ... which lets either him or his party members see through Net of Shadows. . I've problem with the description of this spel in SpC. It's just bit of a jumble. It says: 1. you see normally in magical and normal darkness 2. is does not improve the subjects ability to see in naturally dark en shadowy conditions 3. subject ignores the miss chance due to lack of illumination other than total darkness #1 seems to contradict #2: you can see through magical darkness, ...but can you or can you not see throught normal/natural darkness? (darkvision?) #3= you can see through 'concealment' as the result from lack of illumination (so no 'Blur' spell) Short version: you can see through magical darkness... and concealment due to lack of light. Right?
#215 grimstoki Jun 15, 2007 7:02:22	maybe i have missed it somewhere in the thread, but what is with the steady concentration feat (from races of stone, page 144)? a beguiler who wants to use the cloaked casting ability often, can take 10 on concentration checks, realy nice for defensive casting if you ask me. you only need 13 ranks (thats 8 for the prerequisite and 5 additionals) to have an auto success on defensive casting with lvl 9 spells. if you try the combat casting route you need 20 ranks for the auto success. but if you want to use full round spells often it might be better to push the skill as high as you can, because of the concentration checks involved to resist the interruption from damage taken.
#216 arjomanes Jun 16, 2007 21:06:01	It seems worth mentioning that you can take a level of Spellthief at level 6 and the feat Master Spellthief from Complete Scoundrel. This will allow you full steal spells progression and not hurt your caster level at all (levels of arcane spellcasters stack with spellthief levels for the purpose of determining steal spells ability and arcane caster level). What's nice about this is you can start stealing up to 6 3rd level spells right away at 6th level. This will allow better vesatility in your spell list, since you can now cast druid, cleric, and sorceror/wizard spells from any school. And if your party member is willing, you can swipe a spell from him/her. What's interesting is if you do this at 6th level you won't get beguiler 3rd level spells until level 7, but you can steal and cast twice as many 3rd level spells with your spellthief ability. A possible disadvantage is you use the original caster's DC to cast the spell, though it's an advantage if you steal a divine spell, since you won't have a high wisdom score. Also you can't add on metamagic feats yourself, but have to use whatever metamagic feats were already on it. So no Silent Spell on these. So you get 1d6 of sneak attack and the really helpful steal spells ability (you can steal up to 9th level spells) for the cost of 1 level of spell-casting progression (but not CL) and a feat. You don't lose any skills, but the other class features (armored mage and trapfinding) are redundant. Overall, I think this is very worthwhile for a one-level dip and a feat, as it returns a really good ability that fits perfectly with the flavor and tactics of the beguiler and adds more versatility to a class that can use some versatility now and then at very little cost. It also synergizes with the beguiler since you maximize keeping your opponents' dexterity bonus denied to them, which makes them susceptible to having spells stolen from them. Also, casters with high will saves are more difficult to affect with beguiler spells, so this offers an excellent alternative. You still keep CL20 and you just get your spells one level later, which isn't really much sacrifice for adding a lot more spells to your list. ---------- This one-level dip would qualify for daggerspell mage, with a bit more to show for it than a level of rogue. CONS: You lose Still Spell, three of your advanced learning spells and the +2 DC cloaked casting. Also you must spend two feats on melee combat (TWF and Weapon Focus). Plus you'd end up with CL19 unless you take Practiced Spellcaster, which means your feats are getting depleted fast (Master Spellthief, TWF, WF, PS). PROS: Losing the two levels of spell progression (spellthief1 and daggerspell mage1) still gets you 9th level spells. You gain 10 levels of medium BAB (which will hardly make any difference when you look at the progression--about a +1 or 2 total), d6 HD, good reflex saves (in addition to good will saves), 3d6 sneak attack (not terrible after adding in the spellthief's 1d6, but not great either), and the daggerspell abilities (which focus more on melee and full attacks -- which most beguilers wouldn't want too much of). The beguiler doesn't have many touch attack spells or damaging spells to use with the daggerspell mage's abilities. But with shadow evocation or shadow conjuration, and the steal spells ability, a daggerspell mage beguiler would have enough damage spells to synergize with daggerspell mage. This steps away from the typical beguiler build, but might be useful if you need to deal damage too, while still maintaining the illusion and enchantment spells and the social skills of the beguiler. You still won't want to focus on meleeing with a daggerspell mage beguiler, but it can be handy as bonus damage, getting out of a tight spot, or when facing opponents that are immune to most of your abilities (though it's worth mentioning that many mindless opponents will be immune to sneak attack too). A concern about the beguiler is that enchantment and illusion spells can be less potent at higher levels as more and more monsters are immune to mind-altering spells or have protection against them, and true seeing and similar abilties become more common. Also, as some DM's don't understand all the illusion rules as well as they should, illusionists sometimes get too many enemies metagaming against them. The spellthief and daggerspell abilities move the beguiler back to a more traditional character that might do better in high levels in some games. I think a beguiler 20, a shadowcraft mage, or an anima mage/metamagic build is more effective at higher levels, but sometimes it comes down to the encounters you run across and how the DM is running them.
#217 secretkld Jun 16, 2007 21:29:11	My thoughts on Net of Shadows: This spell is just not as good as just casting one of your Image spells to mimic it. Even if they think your Image spell is an illusion they get a save just like the one Net of Shadows allows. In addition you and your party KNOW your image spell is an illusion and can usually see through it just fine. Right? Only upside of Net? It lasts 1d6 rounds while silent image needs concentration. An upside unless you roll a 1. I almost took this spell myself at 3rd and was annoyed when I gave it a closer look Power word Pain is nice, otherwise I love that swift mirror image spell from RD that somebody recommended.
#218 arjomanes Jun 16, 2007 22:10:15	hmm. . . can you create an illusion of "shifting magic shadows" with silent image? I know you can create a false wall or a cloud of fog that can give you concealment. I think that's a good point about the net of shadows spell. Why not just lay down a fake fog with the silent image instead of taking net of shadows? It does seem like it would accomplish the same thing, except that you can see through it, and your allies would get a +4 bonus on their will save to do so as well. Though losing a standard action each round to keep it there is a big disadvantage. Once you have the swift concentration skill trick (at level 9 admitedly), you don't need to use a standard action to keep the effect in place.
#219 arjomanes Jun 16, 2007 22:19:46	Is there any way to beat the True Seeing spell? Or are you just screwed if you opponent has true seeing? Well, dispel magic should work, but if they have lots of spells on them it may take a while to peel them off. Same thing with immunity to enchantment. Those will really kill the beguiler at high levels it seems. What are the ways around that? There was that one feat mentioned that lets you enchant intelligent undead. That's pretty big. What gets around true seeing? Anything? What monsters are the ones that will really make the beguiler have a bad day? Can we get a list of them together?
#220 arjomanes Jun 16, 2007 22:27:50	Also add to the list of feats Mobile Spellcasting. This will let you use a move action to use surprise casting in melee to feint, and cast your spell with your DC bonus and still move your full speed. This is critical since the last thing your beguiler wants is to be stuck in melee combat when it's time for your enemy to make a full attack on you. Of course Improved Feint combined with your surprise casting ability is even better, since you can use a swift action, but that also means you have to buy Combat Expertise. In general, being able to move and cast is a pretty good idea, particularly for the beguiler. Also, thanks a lot for making this guide. It's really great!
#221 arjomanes Jun 17, 2007 0:31:15	Tricky Monsters Many monsters have abilties that can foil the beguiler's plans. Some in particular are immune or have advantages against many of the beguiler's spells. Here's a quick glance at the SRD. When you factor in all the big and nasties from MM2-5, you'll find more headache monsters. In general, it seems like if it's not a human it's got something to protect it against your spells. Outsiders. Many outsiders have abilities that bypass illusion magic. Demons, in particular, are bad foes since many get see invisibility or true seeing. Demons with true seeing: Balor (CR 20), Glabrezu (CR13), Nalfeshnee (CR 14). With see invibility: Babau (CR 6), Marilith (CR 14). Retriever has an effect like discern location. Of the devils, the Erinyes (Cr 8) has true seeing. All abominations have true seeing. Many outsiders also have blindsense or blindsight. Most outsiders are still susceptible to enchantment spells, and many can still be foiled with illusion magic. At CR 12+ many demons begin getting true seeing, but some still do not possess the ability. And devils in general seem to have been gone the day they were handing out true seeing. Undead. Undead are really difficult in that no enchantment spells, sleep, hold, pw:stun, pw:kill, or whelm spells will work against them. They are immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, nonlethal damage, ability damage, stunning, spells with fortitude saves, and death effects. These will pretty much be your worst nightmare, so if you're impersonating a cleric make sure you don't get shipped out to fight ghouls. Undead can still be tricked by illusion spells, but some intelligent undead also have true seeing. A simple Hide from Undead scroll might save your hide. Lycanthropes, Animals, Magical Beasts, some Humanoids. Many of these monsters have the scent ability, which means that they can smell you from within 30'. Animals are also immune to language-dependent spells, like suggestion. For the most part, these monsters are not immune to illusion (except some instances of silent image for creatures with scent), or enchantments. Dwarves, elves, etc. Some races have bonuses against enchantments or spells, or are immune to sleep effects. Don't cast sleep on a group of elves. Construct. As non-living creatures, constructs are immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, nonlethal damage, ability damage, stunning, spells with fortitude saves, and death effects. Constructs are not immune to illusions and can be tricked. Additionally most constructs will have a low will save so they are especially susceptible to figments. Dragon. Actually dragons aren't too bad, all things considered. They have immunity to magic sleep and paralysis, and they have blindsense 60'. Mature adults can learn true seeing while young adults can learn see invisibility or glitterdust. Dragons are not immune to enchantment spells, and all but the biggest and scariest are susceptible to illusions. Plus, since they're intelligent they are as susceptible to bluff and diplomacy as humanoids would be. Elemental. Another outsider, elementals are immune to sleep and paralysis. But they can be enchanted and tricked by illusions. Ooze. This one is tough. It's immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, polymorph and stunning. Also since it can't see, it's immune to illusions and visual effect that rely on sight. But oozes aren't immune to illusions that have scent and thermal effects, so major image can work against them. And unlike undead and constructs, they can still be hit with subdual damage, so the whelm spells will still work. Plant. Plants are pretty similar to oozes. They're immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, polymorph and stunning. They aren't however immune to visual effects or subdual damage. Vermin. Another monster that's immune to all mind-affecting spells. Almost makes you want to get some scrolls of awaken. Not immune to illusions or subdual damage. Can't see invisible creatures. Some vermin may have blindsense or blindsight. Swarm. Like vermin swarms are immune to all mind-affecting spells, unless they have an intelligence and hive mind. They are also immune to targeted spells, so you need area of effect spells. They aren't immune to illusions or subdual damage (though see above about the targeted spells). Or a scroll with some wind spells on it. Avoiding a bad day Things to consider about special abilities that don't play nice. Spot and Listen. Anyone can make a DC 20 Spot check to detect the presence of an invisible creature within 30'. DC 40 to pinpoint them. Listen check that beats move silently will detect presence, if they beat it by 20 they can pinpoint location. True seeing. This spell is tricky since it sees through illusions and can see invisible and magically disguised creatures. But it does not see through fog, mundane disguise, or plain old hiding (though it can see in the dark). True seeing can be dispelled. See Invisibility. It can see through your invisibility, but that's it. It does not see through illusions, fog, hiding, etc. So if you suspect your enemy has see invisibility on, wrap yourself in another illusion that will still trick the viewer. You could use silent image to create a false wall or ceiling, or disguise yourself like your target's ally. This can also be dispelled. Scent. If you're within 30' they can smell you. 60' if they're downwind from you. 15' if you're upwind from them. This will foil some silent image illusions and definitely foil your invisibility. Scent doesn't function if a strong smell is already present. Major image also alters scent so make sure you think of adding or masking scent. Blindsight and Blindsense. This is similar to scent, but uses multiple senses. It seems like major image could foil this too if you use both scent and thermal illusion in addition to visual illusion. Sense Motive. Many outsiders and dragons have a healthy sense motive check, so tread carefully when bluffing them.
#222 secretkld Jun 17, 2007 12:54:03	Thats a great list Arjomanes, I think I might print it out and add my own notes to it. I always keep the list of what monster types have good saves where, from the back of the MM. (pg 290) I also gave some thought to the spellthief dip with the master spellthief feat and even though it's painful to give up a caster level it can be pretty useful. The spellthief SA would stack nicely with Unseen Seer from CM (which lets you add Hunters Eye, a div spell from PH2 which adds to SA damage and is swift). In addition you can pull off some cool things by investing a feat or two. -If you take a reserve feat from CM that requires an attack roll you can use it to SA. Now you can just take a spell from a friendly cleric/druid/wiz to power the feat up. -Also you may be able to take Practiced Spellcaster -Spellthief and get a nice boost to your caster lvl. Hmmm . . . I never ever give up casting but this tempts me Arjomanes. Even though its 3 feats and a caster lvl. Being able to do a ranged touch Sneak Attack acid glob at 9th lvl that does 10d6 is nice. You have to think about how that compares to the spellcasting and great class abilities you're giving up from the regular Beguiler class though. A simpler way to do it without the spellcaster loss/feats is to take two levels of Unseen seer for the Div spell Hunters Eye. You also get +1d6 at 1st lvl. Then take Spectral weapon as your next advanced learning from Beguiler. Now bluff in combat and get a couple of touch attacks in +4d6 SA. At times, like when you've hasted the party, this might actually be a better damager. You can even use a double weapon like the quarterstaff for an extra attack, though I prefer the reach of a longspear.] I also really love the feat Darkstalker from LoM that makes creatures with scent, blindsense and tremorsense make listen/spot checks to see you like everyone else. It should prob get added to the list.
#223 arjomanes Jun 17, 2007 13:08:34	Well you don't give up a caster level with that level from spellthief if you take the feat. That's what's good about it. You still end up with caster level 20 with the master spellthief feat. The feat lets your spellthief levels stack with your arcane levels for caster level. You do get delayed a level in spells known, so you won't get your 3rd level spells until 7th, but considering that you can start stealing up to 6 3rd level (or lower) spells from any school -- even divine, that's a decent trade-off in my opinion. After all, you only get 3 beguiler 3rd level spells at level 6 anyways, maybe 5 with bonus spells. I'll have to look through some of those options you mentioned. I haven't looked too closely at Unseen Seer. I do like Hunter's Eye; I used that spell a lot with my chameleon character in the last campaign I played in.
#224 secretkld Jun 17, 2007 14:09:19	I'm still not sure if I will take a lvl of spellthief but the more I think about that Hunter's Eye spell the more I like it. With the Beguilers access to the spell Spectral Weapon (touch attacks) and the combat feint abilities/Distract spell its possible he might be on par with a rogue's damage in combat. I've always thought of Jedi for some reason when I see the beguilers spells,skills and abilities. Maybe its because my beguiler char is lawful. My current beguiler is a gnome so if I plan him out with spectral weapon and hunters eye I think I'm gonna call it my Yoda build. No telekinesis access though . . . Have to pick the right feats. Think about this I must.
#225 arjomanes Jun 17, 2007 17:16:13	Keep in mind though that the beguiler will have lower BAB than the rogue, and also is less likely to take the combat feats or maximize dexterity than a rogue. If you go ranged, then you should have PBS and precise shot; if you go melee. . . well you shouldn't go melee with a beguiler. That will just end badly. Still, it's a good spell regardless, and gaining access to ranger spells in general is a pretty cool thing- there are lots of very nice ranger spells.
#226 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 18, 2007 1:28:30	Is there any way to beat the True Seeing spell? Or are you just screwed if you opponent has true seeing? Well, dispel magic should work, but if they have lots of spells on them it may take a while to peel them off. I'm going 'shadow weave' with my beguiler, so also take one level of Shadow Adept (PGtF). This will give me 3 feats that are enormously effective. One of them is 'Insidious magic', which is usefull for you problem. It makes the caster of divination spells (such as True Seeing) make a casterlevel-check of DC 11+ your casterlevel. In other words, if you don't loose any casterlevels, True Seeing won't works more than half of the time. Same thing with immunity to enchantment. Those will really kill the beguiler at high levels it seems. What are the ways around that? well, don't cast enchantment spells ;) Seriously, if you know what creatures might be immune, you try a different tactic. Cast: - illusions - shadow spells - buffs on party members
#227 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 8:54:21	Keep in mind though that the beguiler will have lower BAB than the rogue, and also is less likely to take the combat feats or maximize dexterity than a rogue. If you go ranged, then you should have PBS and precise shot; if you go melee. . . well you shouldn't go melee with a beguiler. That will just end badly. Still, it's a good spell regardless, and gaining access to ranger spells in general is a pretty cool thing- there are lots of very nice ranger spells. I think that's my problem with this idea. In order to be a fantastic spellthief, I usually learn Distract Assailant and Sniper's Shot as my first two spells. Then I suck up my friend's 0 and 1st level spells, and cast Sniper's Shot from a bush constantly. Sniper's shot isn't attainable at all. Therefore, you have to get within 30 feet. And your BAB is terrible. Matter of fact, it's become worse thanks to the 1 level dip. So you have to either prepare for battles and know when they're occurring, as well as take a bunch of spells from your allies that AREN'T mediocre, or you try and make your enemies helpless so you can get a free Sneak Attack. I think I'd rather cast more powerful spells, and more of them.
#228 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 11:28:18	I think that's my problem with this idea. In order to be a fantastic spellthief, I usually learn Distract Assailant and Sniper's Shot as my first two spells. Then I suck up my friend's 0 and 1st level spells, and cast Sniper's Shot from a bush constantly. Sniper's shot isn't attainable at all. Therefore, you have to get within 30 feet. And your BAB is terrible. Matter of fact, it's become worse thanks to the 1 level dip. So you have to either prepare for battles and know when they're occurring, as well as take a bunch of spells from your allies that AREN'T mediocre, or you try and make your enemies helpless so you can get a free Sneak Attack. I think I'd rather cast more powerful spells, and more of them. Good point about sniper's shot being inaccessible, so you do need to move within 30' to grab a spell. To compensate for your poor BAB, you could sneak attack with a ranged touch attack -- even a simple wand of acid splash would suffice. They're already flat-footed against you, so it will be a pretty easy target. I think it comes down to whether the versatility of the steal spells is worth delaying spells known for a level. Keeping your caster level is critical, but having to wait another level for spells is kind of a pain. It comes down to a choice of focused with faster progression, or more vesatile with a slower progression. I personally think that's worth the trade since I can think of situations where the beguiler spell list could use some added versatility. Plus I think the steal spells ability meshes pretty well with the beguiler's abilities and flavor. But you do give up learning spells at normal pace.
#229 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 12:51:01	Great thread guys! Playing a 6th level Beguiler myself. After reading this I am considering dipping into a PrC for level 7. Before, I was also thinking of Lesser Geas as a possible bonus spell. While it does have some overlap with Suggestion, it may be a better choice in some circumstances. Also, I wouldn't discount PK if you spec'd illusion. Cloaked casting PK with Spell Focus: Ill and Gr. Spell Focus: Ill could make it pretty rough . . .
#230 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 12:53:27	Also, I took Spiked Chain at 1st level for the range, and while that may seem like a wasted feat, it has saved my bacon more than once!
#231 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 13:58:05	It comes down to a choice of focused with faster progression, or more vesatile with a slower progression. I think that's a good point. As utterly focused as Beguiler builds typically are, there is a lot of customization that can go into this class. To each his own.
#232 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 14:02:20	Great thread guys! Playing a 6th level Beguiler myself. After reading this I am considering dipping into a PrC for level 7. Before, I was also thinking of Lesser Geas as a possible bonus spell. While it does have some overlap with Suggestion, it may be a better choice in some circumstances. Also, I wouldn't discount PK if you spec'd illusion. Cloaked casting PK with Spell Focus: Ill and Gr. Spell Focus: Ill could make it pretty rough . . . I considered Geas, but when you consider the power of Dominate Person and Dominate Monster, Geas isn't really a spell you're going to use all that often, since they can just ignore you, kill you, and laugh about your spell. And considering it'd be taking up your advanced learning option, I think you'd be happier with either the shadow conj/evoc spells, or other spells.
#233 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 14:24:49	Very good point about the dominate spells. Geas is a great spell, but the cost of a higher-level advanced learning makes it less appealing. I think the beguiler has a really strong portfolio of mind-affecting spells already, with most of the best mind-affecting spells in the game, plus in most cases, you will have a very high diplomacy score. I'd avoid picking up many more mind-affecting spells to avoid putting all my resources into a type of spell that lots of monsters have immunities against. Many beguiler spells are difficult when fighting undead and constructs, who won't be affected by your mind-affecting spells, whelm spells, sleep/stunning, death effects, etc. I'd look at picking up more shadow illusions in particular, which the class doesn't have lots of, but prove very effective against multiple types of enemies. And I just can't recommend the shadow conjuration or evocation spells enough. Even if you can't stand being a blaster in any way, there are many options of non-blaster spells in both schools (particularly conjuration). Even if they make the save on illusion shadow spells, they take damage (greater shadow evocation and conjuration are especially good bc they deal 60% damage even to enemies who pass their will save, and the battlefield control of summons, wind wall, etc is pretty awesome). (of course, take everything I say with a grain of salt since I'm not as committed to the enchantment school as some, though I love it at lower levels and around humans, and like to see more versatility outside of that school.)
#234 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 14:41:19	Very good point about the dominate spells. Geas is a great spell, but the cost of a higher-level advanced learning makes it less appealing. After reading it again, I also realized that the Dominate spells can be cast much more quickly, too. Geas takes 10 minutes. I think the beguiler has a really strong portfolio of mind-affecting spells already, with most of the best mind-affecting spells in the game, plus in most cases, you will have a very high diplomacy score. I'd avoid picking up many more mind-affecting spells to avoid putting all my resources into a type of spell that lots of monsters have immunities against. And that's pretty much where I'm at. You're already choosing between charming, suggesting, dominating, or putting the guy to sleep. I don't think you need more mind-affecting options. Many beguiler spells are difficult when fighting undead and constructs, who won't be affected by your enchantment spells, whelm spells, sleep/stunning, death effects, etc. I'd look at picking up more shadow illusions in particular, which the class doesn't have lots of, but prove very effective against multiple types of enemies. Quick question for you guys: How well does Legion of Sentinels work on Undead? I've been mulling over it for weeks now, and more and more it strikes me as the answer to a lot of shortcomings in early levels against undead. The main reason I feel this way is because they are incorporeal, and they're described as "ghostly". Does this mean they aren't living creatures? And if that's the case, does this mean that Undead wouldn't be capable of seeing them with their "lifesense"? Because from what I understand, the reason illusions don't work on undead is because they have a "lifesense". If that's the case, then wouldn't they run right through the sentinels, not noticing them until they get sliced apart? And I just can't recommend the shadow conjuration or evocation spells enough. Even if you can't stand being a blaster in any way, there are many options of non-blaster spells in both schools (particularly conjuration). Even if they make the save on illusion shadow spells, they take damage (greater shadow evocation and conjuration are especially good bc they deal 60% damage even to enemies who pass their will save, and the battlefield control of summons, wind wall, etc is pretty awesome). Also, if you take a 1 level dip into a PrC like Mindbender, your last advanced learning can be used for Shades. Which means that you will have access to all conjuration (create or Summon) spells of 8th level or lower, and they're 80% effective if they're recognized. And I'm a fan of a lot of other summon spells such as Mount and Unseen Servant. Simple spells that don't seem to warrant casting at first, but there a ton of uses for them.
#235 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 14:56:08	After I asked that question, I decided to do some investigating, and came up with this: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html So, suddenly I think I've got lots of options against undead. Heck, if invisibility and Blur work, I've got LOADS of options.
#236 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 14:59:43	Quick question for you guys: How well does Legion of Sentinels work on Undead? I've been mulling over it for weeks now, and more and more it strikes me as the answer to a lot of shortcomings in early levels against undead. The main reason I feel this way is because they are incorporeal, and they're described as "ghostly". Does this mean they aren't living creatures? And if that's the case, does this mean that Undead wouldn't be capable of seeing them with their "lifesense"? Because from what I understand, the reason illusions don't work on undead is because they have a "lifesense". If that's the case, then wouldn't they run right through the sentinels, not noticing them until they get sliced apart? It was my impression that illusions did work on undead (barring phantasms and patterns which are mind-affecting). I thought that both glamers and figments worked because undead don't have blindsense or true-seeing. I'm completely unfamiliar with a "lifesense" ability. It isn't in the traits of the undead type. Is it a holdover from previous editions, a houserule, an alternate rule in libris mortis or something, or is it a core ruling that I'm just ignorant of? The spell has no saving throw and no spell resistance. It doesn't say undead are immune to it. I think the only creatures immune to the spell are creatures that are immune to attacks of opportunity (if anything like that exists--there might be a feat that denies AoOs). I'm pretty sure it should work agaisnt undead.
#237 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 15:04:35	After I asked that question, I decided to do some investigating, and came up with this: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html So, suddenly I think I've got lots of options against undead. Heck, if invisibility and Blur work, I've got LOADS of options. Thanks for the link! I'm going to print that out and keep it with my beguilercharacter sheet. That's what I had thought, but I was feeling a little uncertain about my basis.
#238 Symar Jun 18, 2007 15:41:55	I tried searching for this but no luck- does a beguiler's cloaked casting and surprise casting apply to spells gained from other classes? I know armored mage doesn't. Specifically I'm wondering about a shadow-caster's mysteries. Thanks!
#239 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 16:30:16	After reading it again, I also realized that the Dominate spells can be cast much more quickly, too. Geas takes 10 minutes. And that's pretty much where I'm at. You're already choosing between charming, suggesting, dominating, or putting the guy to sleep. I don't think you need more mind-affecting options. Quick question for you guys: How well does Legion of Sentinels work on Undead? I've been mulling over it for weeks now, and more and more it strikes me as the answer to a lot of shortcomings in early levels against undead. The main reason I feel this way is because they are incorporeal, and they're described as "ghostly". Does this mean they aren't living creatures? And if that's the case, does this mean that Undead wouldn't be capable of seeing them with their "lifesense"? Because from what I understand, the reason illusions don't work on undead is because they have a "lifesense". If that's the case, then wouldn't they run right through the sentinels, not noticing them until they get sliced apart? Also, if you take a 1 level dip into a PrC like Mindbender, your last advanced learning can be used for Shades. Which means that you will have access to all conjuration (create or Summon) spells of 8th level or lower, and they're 80% effective if they're recognized. And I'm a fan of a lot of other summon spells such as Mount and Unseen Servant. Simple spells that don't seem to warrant casting at first, but there a ton of uses for them. All good points! As I said, after I read this guide I have made adjustments to my guys evolution. I think Shadow Conj or Shadow Well is the way I will go (definately leaning towards Conj). Here is another question: how does the Shadow Conj 20% thing work on spells that do not affect other creatures? For example: Would Phantom Steed act as normal or would it only move at 20% or carry 20% the extra weight? Inquiring minds want to know . . .
#240 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 16:41:08	Here is another question: how does the Shadow Conj 20% thing work on spells that do not affect other creatures? For example: Would Phantom Steed act as normal or would it only move at 20% or carry 20% the extra weight? Inquiring minds want to know . . . I've heard this illusion argument go both ways. One argument goes, you can always choose to fail a saving throw, so you can choose to fail your will disbelieves roll and believe in the illusion you created. So you can use an illusion phantom steed. The other argument goes that if you cast an illusion, you know it's false. Therefore, you fall into the "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw" clause in the rule. So you can't use an illusion phantom steed. However, we're dealing with shadow illusion here, not a simple figment. The shadow exists, it's just the illusion makes it appear to be something else. "A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real." So I think the shadow spells should work as the spell, while figments are more open to argument. If I were DMing I'd say that you could interact with your own shadow illusion, since even though you know it isn't really a phantom steed the shadow still exists, but you cannot interact with your own figment since, by casting the spell, it's been proven to you that it isn't real and you can't believe it. This might be a bit stricter than some interpretations, but I think it preserves the separation of shadow illusion vs figments. Shadows should be stronger since they are partially real and use real energy, and I think this interpretation is consistent with the rules on shadow magic.
#241 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 16:42:21	Thanks for the link! I'm going to print that out and keep it with my beguilercharacter sheet. That's what I had thought, but I was feeling a little uncertain about my basis. Yeah, my rules knowledge got tainted by some players that put too much realism into the game. Suffice to say, after that article, it won't happen again.
#242 thawmus Jun 18, 2007 16:46:01	I've heard this illusion argument go both ways. One argument goes, you can always choose to fail a saving throw, so you can choose to fail your will disbelieves roll and believe in the illusion you created. So you can use an illusion phantom steed. The other argument goes that if you cast an illusion, you know it's false. Therefore, you fall into the "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw" clause in the rule. So you can't use an illusion phantom steed. However, we're dealing with shadow illusion here, not a simple figment. The shadow exists, it's just the illusion makes it appear to be something else. "A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real." So I think the shadow spells should work as the spell, while figments are more open to argument. If I were DMing I'd say that you could interact with your own shadow illusion, since even though you know it isn't really a phantom steed the shadow still exists, but you cannot interact with your own figment since, by casting the spell, it's been proven to you that it isn't real and you can't believe it. That's the way I see it as well. If it were a matter of just illusion, that'd be one thing. But these are shadows taking the place of other objects/creatures. And in the case of the Phantom Steed, it doesn't have any attacks or HP, so nothing should be taken at 20%, IMHO. Same with Greater Mage armor and Unseen Servant.
#243 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 16:55:46	I've heard this illusion argument go both ways. One argument goes, you can always choose to fail a saving throw, so you can choose to fail your will disbelieves roll and believe in the illusion you created. So you can use an illusion phantom steed. The other argument goes that if you cast an illusion, you know it's false. Therefore, you fall into the "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw" clause in the rule. So you can't use an illusion phantom steed. However, we're dealing with shadow illusion here, not a simple figment. The shadow exists, it's just the illusion makes it appear to be something else. "A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real." So I think the shadow spells should work as the spell, while figments are more open to argument. If I were DMing I'd say that you could interact with your own shadow illusion, since even though you know it isn't really a phantom steed the shadow still exists, but you cannot interact with your own figment since, by casting the spell, it's been proven to you that it isn't real and you can't believe it. This might be a bit stricter than some interpretations, but I think it preserves the separation of shadow illusion vs figments. Shadows should be stronger since they are partially real and use real energy, and I think this interpretation is consistent with the rules on shadow magic. Yeah, that is the question. I suppose though that you would have to apply the same logic to any illusion that affects all creatures within the spell area, such as Hypnotic Pattern (I believe is one, at work without books). Therefore, you could never be a victim of your own illusion spell - or sliding down the slippery slope - If you had a party member who always cast the same illusion, you should be able to disbelieve it because you know it is fake. One could argue that magic is based (inherently) on belief that magic is very real and can do very real things for you. If you were not positive that a Phantom Steed or an Unseen Servant could do their jobs as advertised, you would never cast the spell, right? Ergo, the belief in the spell and the existence of shadow energy should make the spell viable for the caster
#244 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 16:56:12	I tried searching for this but no luck- does a beguiler's cloaked casting and surprise casting apply to spells gained from other classes? I know armored mage doesn't. Specifically I'm wondering about a shadow-caster's mysteries. Thanks! It depends on how you interpret "the Beguiler's spells" The ability says "Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe." This could be 1) any spells the beguiler casts, or it could be 2) any spells on the beguiler's spell list. I could really see a DM ruling that it's just the beguiler's spell list here. I'm not aware of any official faq on this, but frequently if you receive a benefit like this and it doesn't say it's for all arcane spells, it's likely that it just replies to your class spells. I'd like to be proven wrong though, since beguiler/wizard/ ultimate magus is a popular build and the bonus to DC is an important feature of the beguiler class.
#245 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 18:23:18	Yeah, that is the question. I suppose though that you would have to apply the same logic to any illusion that affects all creatures within the spell area, such as Hypnotic Pattern (I believe is one, at work without books). Therefore, you could never be a victim of your own illusion spell - or sliding down the slippery slope - If you had a party member who always cast the same illusion, you should be able to disbelieve it because you know it is fake. As far as party members are concerned, there is a difference between having proof that something is an illusion, being told something is an illusion, and suspecting something is an illusion. If an illusionist or beguiler casts an illusion, his party members cannot automotically disbelieve it's an illusion. They can choose to attempt to disbelieve (by rolling a will save) that any spell the illusionist casts is real, since they have prior experience that he casts illusions and suspect this is one too. And if the illusionist tells his party members it's an illusion, then they get a +4 to their will saving throws to disbelieve it. But until they are presented with 'proof' that it's an illusion, they still need to make their will saves to disbelieve. The caster has proof that it's an illusion, since he knows he cast an illusion spell. Therefore, you should never be victim to your own figment, since you have proof it isn't real. Your party members, however, still need to roll their will saves and I'm sure they'd appreciate a heads-up when you cast illusion spells. A code word or a shout out in a language only your party knows could be a good way to tell them. If you centered a shadow evocation fireball on yourself, however, you still take 20% damage like everyone else. A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real. Shadow illusion falls into a different category than figments, glamers and patterns, since the shadow is actually a real thing. The shadow illusion is partially real, since it uses extra-dimensional energy from the shadow plane and forms an illusion around it. The shadow actually exists -- it has real effects and causes real damage, even if you disbelieve the illusion part of it. The illusion becomes transparent and you see vague shadowy shapes beneath it. A shadow isn't as strong as a real spell: shadow conjuration is 20% real, greater shadow conjuration is 60% real and shades is 80% real, if you disbelieve the illusion aspect, but it still has an effect. One could argue that magic is based (inherently) on belief that magic is very real and can do very real things for you. If you were not positive that a Phantom Steed or an Unseen Servant could do their jobs as advertised, you would never cast the spell, right? Ergo, the belief in the spell and the existence of shadow energy should make the spell viable for the caster You don't need to believe in the shadow illusion at all for it to work. If it's something that has an effect on you -- say, a shadow illusion fireball -- you get a chance to make a will save to disbelieve it. If you succeed, you still take 20% damage from the shadow (half that if you make your reflex save). With shadow illusion black tentacles, you can make your will save. If you make your save, you are X% likely to be grappled (20%, 60%, 80%). This percentage-chance is because the rules say (in the Shadow Conjuration description) "If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur." It does seem harder to understand with conjuration spells that benefit the caster, like phantom steed. But already we know that shadow has real substance, real effects and real damage, so you can create a phantom steed from it. To you, the phantom steed would look like a "transparent image superimposed on vague, shadowy forms". However, "if the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur" (where it's 20% for shadow cojuration, 60% for greater shadow conjuration and 80% for shades). I think that this rule should be applied consistently to all special effects other than damage. This means your phantom steed is X% able to carry you. I think this is the most consistent use of the spell and the interpretation that follows most closely to the rules. Edit: amended this to remove teleport, since after rereading the description for Greater Shadow Conjuration, I noticed it only allows for conj (creation and summon) spells, not teleportation. Sorry for the error; I got a little carried away there for a bit. I am uncertain if Shades would allow teleport or not (with 80% likelihood).
#246 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 18:50:02	You should never be victim to your own figment. If you centered a shadow evocation fireball on yourself, you still take 20% damage like everyone else. Right! That is the same reasoning that says that a Phantom Steed should carry you as per the spell description, since it is just as real to the caster. Now how effective or efficient the spell is could be up for debate. If shadow-stuff is less strong, bouyant, flexible, durable, hot or sharp (etc) as the normal conjured-stuff - then I would believe that the 20% would apply. But the spell description is all about belief vs. disbelief - not efficiency or effectiveness. Also, shadow illusion falls into a different category than figments, glamers and patterns, since the shadow is actually a real thing. The shadow illusion is partially real, since it uses extra-dimensional energy from the shadow plane and forms an illusion around it. The shadow actually exists -- it has real effects and causes real damage, even if you disbelieve the illusion part of it. A shadow isn't as strong as a real spell: shadow conjuration is 20% real, greater shadow conjuration is 60% real and shades is 80% real, if you disbelieve the illusion aspect, but it still has an effect. So really, you don't need to believe in the shadow illusion at all for it to work. If it's something that has an effect on you -- say, a shadow illusion fireball -- you get a chance to make a will save to disbelieve it. If you succeed, you still take 20% damage from the shadow (half that if you make your reflex save). With shadow illusion black tentacles, you can make your will save. If you make your save, you are X% likely to be grappled (20%, 60%, 80%). Okay, for the sake of arguement - lets look at shadow material like cotton candy. If you made a horse out of cotton candy, and that CC horse was 20% of a real horse - how does the 20% apply? Does it apply to strength (as in how much it can lift) or speed (how fast it can move), or both? Since Phantom Steed gives you lots of stats and Mount gives you very little (other than light horse/pony) how would you apply them equally, since they are technically 2 levels different? (Although irrellevant to this scenario, since shadow conj is a 4th lvl spell, regardlesS) It does seem harder to understand with conjuration spells that benefit the caster, like teleport, phantom steed, phase door, plane shift, etc. But already we know that the shadow plane can be used to travel through (shadow dancer, for instance), and we know that shadow has real substance, real effects and real damage, so you can create a phantom steed from it. To you, the phantom steed would look like a "transparent image superimposed on vague, shadowy forms". However, "if the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only X% likely to occur." I think that this rule should be applied consistently to all special effects other than damage. This means you are X% likely to be able to teleport, or your phantom steed is X% able to carry you. I think this is the most consistent use of the spell and the interpretation that follows most closely to the rules. This means when you cast greater shadow conjuration to teleport your party, you have a 60% chance that it will be able to work as normal, and a 40% chance that it won't work at all. This increases to 80% success with shades. I would agree that consistantcy is the key, but how many spells do you make irrelevant by that stance? Damage spells seem to be an easy fix, as do creatures - but it's the in betweeners. Also, don't all of the teleport spells fall under the "Teleport" subclass and therefore not the "Summon" or "Create" subclasses allowed by the spell?
#247 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 18:54:07	On another note: Has anyone ever noticed that the "Conceal Spellcasting" spell trick is the same as a new sleight of hand use from a previous supplement? (Races of Stone, I think . ..maybe RotW) Did WotC ever comment on this? If this is the case, you may not need to blow the skill points for it.
#248 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 19:11:41	Right! That is the same reasoning that says that a Phantom Steed should carry you as per the spell description, since it is just as real to the caster. Now how effective or efficient the spell is could be up for debate. If shadow-stuff is less strong, bouyant, flexible, durable, hot or sharp (etc) as the normal conjured-stuff - then I would believe that the 20% would apply. But the spell description is all about belief vs. disbelief - not efficiency or effectiveness. Okay, for the sake of arguement - lets look at shadow material like cotton candy. If you made a horse out of cotton candy, and that CC horse was 20% of a real horse - how does the 20% apply? Does it apply to strength (as in how much it can lift) or speed (how fast it can move), or both? Since Phantom Steed gives you lots of stats and Mount gives you very little (other than light horse/pony) how would you apply them equally, since they are technically 2 levels different? (Although irrellevant to this scenario, since shadow conj is a 4th lvl spell, regardlesS) I would agree that consistantcy is the key, but how many spells do you make irrelevant by that stance? Damage spells seem to be an easy fix, as do creatures - but it's the in betweeners. Also, don't all of the teleport spells fall under the "Teleport" subclass and therefore not the "Summon" or "Create" subclasses allowed by the spell? Yeah, sorry about the teleport bit. I was reading the shades description at the time and it doesn't say just creation and summon, but I edited my response to remove that. As far as the 20% likely thing, as a DM I'd say it's 20% likely for any effect it has on you to work. So you use shadow conjuration to summon a phantom steed, I'd say it has a 20% chance of being able to carry you. An illusion can have speed, so that's not an issue. The issue is whether you can sit on the back of the illusion you made. It shows up as a transparent shape to you over shadowy shapes and it's 20% able to carry you, since that's the main effect of the spell. You know it isn't real and have proof it isn't real so you don't get to roll a will save. You or the DM would get to roll the percentage, depending on how your group did that. If you conjured it for someone else to ride, they get their will save, which they can choose to fail. So they can ride it because they haven't been presented with proof it isn't real. I suppose for me it comes down to that sentence in the illusion rules, that those who have proof it isn't real don't have to roll a saving throw. So I wouldn't allow a figment to hold the caster's weight or a shadow illusion more than its percentage of success of having a real effect on the caster. I don't think this ruling makes anything irrelelvant. A shadow illusion is never meant to completely duplicate the real spell or effect or object. It is only supposed to fool the viewer, or even if it doesn't fool them it's supposed to be 20% as strong, or 60%, or 80%. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Maybe Phantom Steed or Secure Shelter or Minor Creation are supposed to work all the time, even though you know they aren't real, when they are shadow illusion. Maybe there's a rule somewhere that says you can choose to believe it's real even though you have proof it isn't, or that even if you don't believe it's real you can still use it as normal. If so, that would make it easier I think. It would suck to make a shelter that lets everyone else stay toasty dry, while you still continue to get rained on. Do you know if there's a sage ruling on this? I'd prefer to not have to roll that percentage, though I think it does help balance the spells agaisnt each other - shades becomes much more valuable than shadow conjuration. And regardless of some of these spells, the shadow conjuration and evocation spells are terrific simply for the effect they have on everyone else.
#249 neptunehero Jun 18, 2007 20:21:19	On another note: Has anyone ever noticed that the "Conceal Spellcasting" spell trick is the same as a new sleight of hand use from a previous supplement? (Races of Stone, I think . ..maybe RotW) Did WotC ever comment on this? If this is the case, you may not need to blow the skill points for it. I noticed that when I first saw it, and yes, it is from RoS. I'd never blow skill points on an ability that another book says I can just do for free.
#250 secretkld Jun 18, 2007 21:32:06	My little Gnome Beguiler turns 3rd lvl tomorrow (I hope). and I need to pick a feat. So far I have: 1st- Spell Focus Illusion And since I'm gonna take Shadowcraft mage later I know I want: Heighten Earth Sense Earth Spell Since I can't really make much use of Earth-Spell/Heighten until 11th lvl, (right?) I figure I can squeeze in a feat at 6th if I want. I was thinking about maybe taking an Extra Spell feat and taking something useful but I also like the Darkstalker feat from LoM. Any advice on feats? I can use any book except world specific (unless its greyhawk). Did other beguilers out there take at low lvls that was useful?
#251 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 21:33:42	Yeah, sorry about the teleport bit. I was reading the shades description at the time and it doesn't say just creation and summon, but I edited my response to remove that. As far as the 20% likely thing, as a DM I'd say it's 20% likely for any effect it has on you to work. So you use shadow conjuration to summon a phantom steed, I'd say it has a 20% chance of being able to carry you. An illusion can have speed, so that's not an issue. The issue is whether you can sit on the back of the illusion you made. It shows up as a transparent shape to you over shadowy shapes and it's 20% able to carry you, since that's the main effect of the spell. You know it isn't real and have proof it isn't real so you don't get to roll a will save. You or the DM would get to roll the percentage, depending on how your group did that. If you conjured it for someone else to ride, they get their will save, which they can choose to fail. So they can ride it because they haven't been presented with proof it isn't real. I suppose for me it comes down to that sentence in the illusion rules, that those who have proof it isn't real don't have to roll a saving throw. So I wouldn't allow a figment to hold the caster's weight or a shadow illusion more than its percentage of success of having a real effect on the caster. I don't think this ruling makes anything irrelelvant. A shadow illusion is never meant to completely duplicate the real spell or effect or object. It is only supposed to fool the viewer, or even if it doesn't fool them it's supposed to be 20% as strong, or 60%, or 80%. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Maybe Phantom Steed or Secure Shelter or Minor Creation are supposed to work all the time, even though you know they aren't real, when they are shadow illusion. Maybe there's a rule somewhere that says you can choose to believe it's real even though you have proof it isn't, or that even if you don't believe it's real you can still use it as normal. If so, that would make it easier I think. It would suck to make a shelter that lets everyone else stay toasty dry, while you still continue to get rained on. Do you know if there's a sage ruling on this? I'd prefer to not have to roll that percentage, though I think it does help balance the spells agaisnt each other - shades becomes much more valuable than shadow conjuration. And regardless of some of these spells, the shadow conjuration and evocation spells are terrific simply for the effect they have on everyone else. I guess it all comes down to a semantical issue. As I said before, it seems you would believe in the illusion if you were going to cast it. But that line you brought up is a good point. I just can't see how a shelter could keep out 20% of the rain, etc. To me, disbelieving or rolling a saving throw is an active, purposeful decision. If you see the out-of-control wagon headed towards a mother and child, and you decide to stay and try and stop the wagon, you are purposefully neglecting your saving throw. If you have created something made from shadow, as a purposeful creation to carry you over water, why would you ever not believe that it can carry you over the water? Now if someone created a creature that tried to carry me out to sea, I would be very determined NOT to go. Ya know what I mean?
#252 secretkld Jun 18, 2007 21:53:17	As for this shadow conjuration discussion, let us take a closer look at the shad conj spell description and the PHB section on illusions under "spells descriptions". Don't make the mistake of treating shadow illusions as figments, they work differently. If you look at the description of the Shad Conj spell you can see that says you can make a save against it if you interact with it. Then it goes on to describe specific changes to conjured effects if you save. You don't change a shadow summoned creatures Strength or Dex or speed or anything else that isn't addressed in the description. Shadow conjured Mage Armor would provide +4 AC against enemies that pass a save and are only 20% likely to work on somebody who fails (it is a created force). Its possible that you can pass a save against a secure shelter and then you are 80% likely to walk right through it. Weird thing is . . . 80% of the rain will fall right through it! Object auto pass saves against Shadow Conj. However you don't have to make a save against your own Shad Conj according to the description of the spell. Regardless of the saving throw issues, a summoned horse can hold you up and summoned monster can pick you up.
#253 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 21:59:11	My little Gnome Beguiler turns 3rd lvl tomorrow (I hope). and I need to pick a feat. So far I have: 1st- Spell Focus Illusion And since I'm gonna take Shadowcraft mage later I know I want: Heighten Earth Sense Earth Spell Since I can't really make much use of Earth-Spell/Heighten until 11th lvl, (right?) I figure I can squeeze in a feat at 6th if I want. I was thinking about maybe taking an Extra Spell feat and taking something useful but I also like the Darkstalker feat from LoM. Any advice on feats? I can use any book except world specific (unless its greyhawk). Did other beguilers out there take at low lvls that was useful? Well you could always do Gr. Spell focus: illusion, Spell Penetration, or even practiced spellcaster. Extra Spell might be ok, but at low levels it isn't going to be as useful in the long run. You seem to want to focus on the illusion side of things, so those are some suggestions. You could do quicken spell, or one of several mentioned in the guide . . .
#254 miscdebris Jun 18, 2007 22:05:16	Practiced Spellcaster?
#255 enigmashock Jun 18, 2007 22:14:19	From Hypertext D20 SRD Shadow Conjuration Illusion (Shadow) Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Effect: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with); varies; see text Spell Resistance: Yes; see text You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower. Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength. Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature. Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration’s level (4th) rather than the spell’s normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work. A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it’s recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature’s damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are one-fifth as large. A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms. Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell. It does say that a shadow conjured creature (and one could assume object) has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Only the menioned AC, HP, and DMG are affected. Thanks secretkid
#256 Todd Jun 18, 2007 22:33:34	Do you know if there's a sage ruling on this? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a The rules don't say so, but if you create an illusion that allows a saving throw for disbelief, you automatically disbelieve it (you know it isn't real because you created it). Certain aspects of a shadow always depend on its degree of reality. These aspects include hit points. Other aspects of a shadow remain fixed, no matter what its degree of reality. These include gross dimensions (height, width, thickness), superficial details (color, shape, anatomical features), attack bonus (but see below), saving throw bonuses, skill scores, and ability scores. For example, a shadow ogre mage (page 200 in the Monster Manual) that is 20% real has 5 Hit Dice, but only 7 hit points (20% of 37, rounded down to the nearest whole number). Its initiative and speed ratings are unchanged. Its Armor Class depends on whether its attacker believes it is real. The rest of the monster's statistics are unchanged, though some of its combat results will be reduced against foes who have successfully disbelieved it. ...(stuff about a Shadow Conjuration of an ogre mage)... The shadow ogre mage has its full suite of spell-like abilities. Its damage-dealing ability, cone of cold, works normally against a disbeliever, except that the damage dealt is only 20% of normal. Its other abilities (darkness, invisibility, charm person, flight, and regeneration) aren't so easy to handle. I recommend that any ability that affects only the shadow creature work normally (in this case, invisibility , flight, and regeneration). Powers that can affect others or the creature's surroundings (darkness and charm person) have only a 20% chance to work when theshadow ogre mage uses them. Roll percentile dice, and on a roll of 81 or higher, the power in question has its full effect. Otherwise, it has no effects at all.
#257 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 23:26:29	Thanks for the links. I think they help clear up a number of questions I had. I'm still a little unsure on shadows that aren't monsters or damage spells though. Since the gross dimensions remain the same, can a shadow support weight, or have weight? My guess is they would weigh 20%. Can they support only 20% of normal weight, or can they support normal weight, or can they support normal weight 20% of the time? I'm still uncertain on the rules about a shadow phantom steed or secure shelter. Would it be able to carry you/protect you from the elements? Does it only do so a percentage of the time? I noticed the sage recommended that abilities that affect the shadow itself are treated normally, while those that affect the environment or other creatures have a 20% chance of working. By that logic, would you say that spells such as phantom steed affect other creatures and should therefore work 20% of the time? I guess that's the logic I was using earlier, but I'm not on sure footing. I admit it's a bit murky and I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong.
#258 arjomanes Jun 18, 2007 23:36:13	My little Gnome Beguiler turns 3rd lvl tomorrow (I hope). and I need to pick a feat. So far I have: 1st- Spell Focus Illusion And since I'm gonna take Shadowcraft mage later I know I want: Heighten Earth Sense Earth Spell Since I can't really make much use of Earth-Spell/Heighten until 11th lvl, (right?) I figure I can squeeze in a feat at 6th if I want. I was thinking about maybe taking an Extra Spell feat and taking something useful but I also like the Darkstalker feat from LoM. Any advice on feats? I can use any book except world specific (unless its greyhawk). Did other beguilers out there take at low lvls that was useful? Retributive Spell in complete mage seems worthwhile - it lets you hit someone with a spell who did damage to you, as an immediate action. It might save you from getting full attacked or grappled or rended. Mobile spellcasting in complete adventurer might be worth having too. It lets you move your full speed and cast a spell in one standard action. It requires 8 ranks in concentration and the DC 20+spell level is tough. Heighten spell might be a good one to get out of the way now, to open up extra spell at higher levels. Also, greater spell focus would be a good choice.
#259 seeker_of_truth_02 Jun 18, 2007 23:54:02	Here's a custserv response that while not directly on point might yield some insight. Can greater shadow evocation effectively mimic contingency? Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support. Technically it would be possible unless the DM feels that it does not fit the purpose and feel of Greater Shadow Evocation and house rules otherwise. Contingency does not interact with your opponents like most evocation effects. (Traditionally, evocation effects usually interact in some way with your enemies.) Take Care and Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
#260 amatulic Jun 19, 2007 0:53:07	My, my, this thread has grown since I was last able to check in. Looks like I have a lot of updating to do on the Handbook at the beginning of this thread. @amatulic, I thought I'd give you an idea of the tactics I've used till now. I have to admit that I'm still 3rd level, so i have only used 1st level spells. -snip- Thanks, much appreciated. Home life is swamping me at the moment so I haven't had a chance to make updates. Usually I find time before my next gaming session because it helps me focus on my character features. That won't be until July though. I hope to have time to enhance the handbook before then. -A
#261 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 19, 2007 2:51:22	On another note: Has anyone ever noticed that the "Conceal Spellcasting" spell trick is the same as a new sleight of hand use from a previous supplement? (Races of Stone, I think . ..maybe RotW) Did WotC ever comment on this? If this is the case, you may not need to blow the skill points for it. yes, I noticed that and I even spend some time talking about it on te boards (I gues it might even have been this thread). There *is* a difference between te skilltrick and the RoS-skill. the RoS-skill makes it possibel to cast unnoticed. The skill-trick has the additional benefit that it doesn't provoke AoO's. I thought that this woudl be the same, but another bright poster convinced me of the contrary. there are 2 different things: - casting unseen - don't appear distracted With the RoS-skill lets you cast unseen, but you still look distracted (fumbling in your cloak for example), thus giving opponents an AoO. The skilltricks let's you even avoid the AoO. please see: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12359335#post12359335
#262 secretkld Jun 19, 2007 11:27:51	Well Skip seems pretty sure that you auto save against your own illusions and that would include Shadow Conj. "The rules don't say so, but if you create an illusion that allows a saving throw for disbelief, you automatically disbelieve it (you know it isn't real because you created it)." -Skip While the, "rules dont say so", part of that statement is significant and kinda holds up what I got out of reading the two relevant sections in the PHB, if this is how my DM plays it it leads to some weird situations. If I use a Shad Conj for Major creation and make platemail can I wear it or is it 80% likely to fall right off of me? Or is it on me but I don't feel it? Any conjuration (Summoning) can still carry you though. So mount still works normally, it just has the lower AC, HP and attack abilities vs. yourself. . . Let me throw ;) this out there: Can I give my shadow conj monster a *real* weapon? Is he only 20% likely to be able to use it? Is that a possible way around less damage, SR and saving throw troubles? I mean, getting hit by a real spear thrown by my shadow Dretch just hits like a real spear right?
#263 enigmashock Jun 19, 2007 12:51:34	yes, I noticed that and I even spend some time talking about it on te boards (I gues it might even have been this thread). There *is* a difference between te skilltrick and the RoS-skill. the RoS-skill makes it possibel to cast unnoticed. The skill-trick has the additional benefit that it doesn't provoke AoO's. I thought that this woudl be the same, but another bright poster convinced me of the contrary. there are 2 different things: - casting unseen - don't appear distracted With the RoS-skill lets you cast unseen, but you still look distracted (fumbling in your cloak for example), thus giving opponents an AoO. The skilltricks let's you even avoid the AoO. please see: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12359335#post12359335 Wow, thank you for the distinction! Good on ya, Nick!
#264 enigmashock Jun 19, 2007 13:03:56	Well Skip seems pretty sure that you auto save against your own illusions and that would include Shadow Conj. "The rules don't say so, but if you create an illusion that allows a saving throw for disbelief, you automatically disbelieve it (you know it isn't real because you created it)." -Skip While the, "rules dont say so", part of that statement is significant and kinda holds up what I got out of reading the two relevant sections in the PHB, if this is how my DM plays it it leads to some weird situations. If I use a Shad Conj for Major creation and make platemail can I wear it or is it 80% likely to fall right off of me? Or is it on me but I don't feel it? I put in a CS question on utility spells that only relate to the caster. Haven't heard back yet . . . Any conjuration (Summoning) can still carry you though. So mount still works normally, it just has the lower AC, HP and attack abilities vs. yourself. . . Let me throw ;) this out there: Can I give my shadow conj monster a *real* weapon? Is he only 20% likely to be able to use it? Is that a possible way around less damage, SR and saving throw troubles? I mean, getting hit by a real spear thrown by my shadow Dretch just hits like a real spear right? That is an excellent point! /scratches head The description clearly states that it is 1/5 as strong. I guess the semantical debate there is what does "strong" mean in that usage. If it refers to it being strong as equal to "real" then a real weapon should do normal damage. If strong refers to strength, then it wouldn't matter. If it refers to both, it gets interesting - Then only half of the 80% non-damaging percentage should apply to a shadow being real and the other half should refer to the strength of the creature (or some other crazy math formula). The point is - if it is both part of the reality is in the strength and part of the reality is in the existence. So if you replace a shadow sword with a real one, part of the miss chance would disappear as well. If we take it as a half-and-half split, it would only be a 40% discount on damage. If the shadow-Dretch does 10 points of damage with a sword, then 6 would count instead of 2. That seems unlikely . . .
#265 arjomanes Jun 19, 2007 13:38:06	I would think a sword you conjured using shadow conjurations would work at full strength against opponents that didn't make their saving throw, just as a damage spell would. If they do make their save, then it's only 20% (60% or 80%) of the damage. It has 1/5 the hp if sundered, etc. I think the easiest way to rule then, after reading through the sage advice and everything is something like phantom steed would work, since the shadow retains its normal properties like dimension and size. Also, according to the sage, it retains its full ability scores, so it could carry whatever its strength allows it to carry. So it could carry you fine. Same principle would apply with creating a shadow shelter or hut or something. Other aspects of a shadow remain fixed, no matter what its degree of reality. These include gross dimensions (height, width, thickness), superficial details (color, shape, anatomical features), attack bonus (but see below), saving throw bonuses, skill scores, and ability scores. So I was wrong on that. It appears that things like dimensions, size, ability scores, and other physical properties, that aren't AC and hit points are as the normal description, not 20% of the description, or 20% likely to happen. Those, apparently, are considered fixed properties of the spell and not special effects, damage, or AC. Whether one believes or not, the shadow still only has 20% of the hit points (or 60% with greater shadow conjuration, 80% with shades). Apparently, according to Skip, the description in the spell that says it's 1/5th as strong isn't a literal strength, but potency instead, since Skip said the shadow retains its ability scores. So the 1/5 as strong rule means the damage it inflicts is 1/5 as potent and its AC is 1/5 as high (if disbelieved), and its hit points are 1/5 normal regardless. Effects that only affect the creatures, such as flight or invisibility work normally, so if you're high enough level your shadow phantom steed can fly. If you conjure armor, it has normal effect against someone who attacks it, unless they disbelieve it, then it only has a percentage of its AC (so instead of a +5 AC you get a +1 AC, if it's shadow conjuration). It also only has a percentage of its hit points if they attempt to sunder it. Other effects like black tentacles grappling an opponent have a percentage chance. If the tentacles hit, you roll a percentage to see if you get a chance to make a grapple check, but if it works it would grapple at normal strength. I'll agree with Skip that the caster isn't allowed to fail his saving throw since he is presented with proof the illusion isn't real. I think while the rules don't explicitly say that, it's a logical conclusion. I think the sentence that says if you have proof that it is an illusion then you don't need a saving throw makes this a logical ruling. This still leaves a lot of options open to the caster, if we follow the ruling that shadow has size, dimension and ability scores (or their equivalent). So your shadow wall is really there and can be climbed; it just has 20% of the hit points so it's a lot easier to go through. I think the customer service responses and sage advice helped clear things up. The response that contingency should work fine by customer service, and the statement that "other aspects of a shadow remain fixed, no matter what its degree of reality. . .gross dimensions (height, width, thickness), superficial details (color, shape, anatomical features), attack bonus (but see below), saving throw bonuses, skill scores, and ability scores" leads me to revise my position. If it's a gross characteristic of the spell, and isn't damage, hit points, a special attack or ability, or AC, it should function normally. If it's a special effect that an opponent interacts with, it has a 20% chance of working if they succeed on their saving throw to disbelieve.
#266 enigmashock Jun 19, 2007 14:08:30	I would think a sword you conjured using shadow conjurations would work at full strength against opponents that didn't make their saving throw, just as a damage spell would. If they do make their save, then it's only 20% (60% or 80%) of the damage. It has 1/5 the hp if sundered, etc. I think the easiest way to rule then, after reading through the sage advice and everything is something like phantom steed would work, since the shadow retains its normal properties like dimension and size. Also, according to the sage, it retains its full ability scores, so it could carry whatever its strength allows it to carry. So it could carry you fine. Same principle would apply with creating a shadow shelter or hut or something. So I was wrong on that. It appears that things like dimensions, size, ability scores, and other physical properties, that aren't AC and hit points are as the normal description, not 20% of the description, or 20% likely to happen. Those, apparently, are considered fixed properties of the spell and not special effects, damage, or AC. Whether one believes or not, the shadow still only has 20% of the hit points (or 60% with greater shadow conjuration, 80% with shades). Apparently, according to Skip, the description in the spell that says it's 1/5th as strong isn't a literal strength, but potency instead, since Skip said the shadow retains its ability scores. So the 1/5 as strong rule means the damage it inflicts is 1/5 as potent and its AC is 1/5 as high (if disbelieved), and its hit points are 1/5 normal regardless. Effects that only affect the creatures, such as flight or invisibility work normally, so if you're high enough level your shadow phantom steed can fly. If you conjure armor, it has normal effect against someone who attacks it, unless they disbelieve it, then it only has a percentage of its AC (so instead of a +5 AC you get a +1 AC, if it's shadow conjuration). It also only has a percentage of its hit points if they attempt to sunder it. Other effects like black tentacles grappling an opponent have a percentage chance. If the tentacles hit, you roll a percentage to see if you get a chance to make a grapple check, but if it works it would grapple at normal strength. I'll agree with Skip that the caster isn't allowed to fail his saving throw since he is presented with proof the illusion isn't real. I think while the rules don't explicitly say that, it's a logical conclusion. I think the sentence that says if you have proof that it is an illusion then you don't need a saving throw makes this a logical ruling. This still leaves a lot of options open to the caster, if we follow the ruling that shadow has size, dimension and ability scores (or their equivalent). So your shadow wall is really there and can be climbed; it just has 20% of the hit points so it's a lot easier to go through. I think the customer service responses and sage advice helped clear things up. The response that contingency should work fine by customer service, and the statement that "other aspects of a shadow remain fixed, no matter what its degree of reality. . .gross dimensions (height, width, thickness), superficial details (color, shape, anatomical features), attack bonus (but see below), saving throw bonuses, skill scores, and ability scores" leads me to revise my position. If it's a gross characteristic of the spell, and isn't damage, hit points, a special attack or ability, or AC, it should function normally. If it's a special effect that an opponent interacts with, it has a 20% chance of working if they succeed on their saving throw to disbelieve. I think that is pretty much where I am as well. I still have not heard back from CS, but your logic and my logic seem to have good kung fu together. I am sorry if it seems like I derailed the thread with this Shadow business, but as I have to make this decision during my next session or two, I want to be ready. My little Changeling Beguiler is all grown up and I think that Shadow Conjuration where the utility spells work, is far, far more appealing than without. Otherwise, Shadow Well would probably be my next choice. . .
#267 enigmashock Jun 19, 2007 14:11:27	Got my CS response: Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support. Even if the Shadow Conjuration effect technically has only 20% of the strength of the original effect, that means absolutely nothing if the spell doesn't interact with people in the ways that Shadow Conjuration describes. If a spell does things that are not covered in the Shadow Conjuration examples, the DM will have to adjudicate a house rule for what aspects of that spell are affected by the 20% rule. A Leomund's Secure Shelter will indeed keep out the rain. But it makes sense that the alarm spell effect only has a 20% chance of going off if something comes down the chimney. A Phantom Steed might move and carry its allowed weight normally because the Shadow Conjuration spell does not say that the 20% rule affects movement or encumbrance. Of course the DM can rule otherwise. We just can't perform the service of suggesting house rules for situations that are not covered in the rules as written. Take Care and Good Gaming! So it seems it would be a case-by-case basis, but a good answer, none-the-less!
#268 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 20, 2007 1:44:49	Quick question for you guys: How well does Legion of Sentinels work on Undead? I've been mulling over it for weeks now, and more and more it strikes me as the answer to a lot of shortcomings in early levels against undead. The main reason I feel this way is because they are incorporeal, and they're described as "ghostly". Does this mean they aren't living creatures? And if that's the case, does this mean that Undead wouldn't be capable of seeing them with their "lifesense"? Because from what I understand, the reason illusions don't work on undead is because they have a "lifesense". If that's the case, then wouldn't they run right through the sentinels, not noticing them until they get sliced apart? Illusions work on undead and yes, 'legion of sentinels' works on undead. It's not an 'mind affecting spell' (undead are immune to that), but an illusion spell...and even an shadow-spell. It can affect incorporal undead.
#269 whitishknight Jun 24, 2007 13:50:13	what do you guys think about a beguiler with a whole slew of the Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel?
#270 enigmashock Jun 24, 2007 15:58:17	what do you guys think about a beguiler with a whole slew of the Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel? I don't personally care for many of the luck mechanics, but I think you could make a very luck heavy beguiler. Especially if you went halfling with it and maybe dabbled in Luckstealer Many of the scoundrel-y traits could cross over from the luck stuff
#271 arjomanes Jun 24, 2007 15:59:28	what do you guys think about a beguiler with a whole slew of the Luck Feats from Complete Scoundrel? I could see Lucky Fingers, Survivor's Luck, and Unbelievable Luck being useful if you're the sole trapfinder. A beguiler as trap monkey is a little worrisome since you'll have a pretty poor reflex save and no evasion and a bad fortitude save. Being able to reroll some of those reflex or fortitude savesmight be alife-saver (literally) if you're disarming traps frequently. And the +2 bonus on disable device might be helpful too. Insightful reflex might also be a good investment if you're going to be around traps alot too. All told though, luck feats are a big investment for the return you get. The beguiler only gets a few feats, which might be better served to improve your spells.
#272 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 25, 2007 1:10:35	All told though, luck feats are a big investment for the return you get. The beguiler only gets a few feats, which might be better served to improve your spells. Agreed. Even though the luck-feats might be a great addition thematically, they don't mesh well with the strengths the Beguiler already has. Lifting your spell-DC's would be a wise course, for example.
#273 zombiegleemax Jun 25, 2007 13:19:34	Any thoughts on playing into epic levels? I'm playing a straight beguilder (1-20) in Savage tide. Currently we are only level 12, but its been hinted at that this will probably go epic, if not quite a few levels into epic. I have very little epic experience at all, and there seems to be no epic progression for beguilers. Any thoughts on how to prepare for epic, and what to take (class,prc,feats) once you get there?
#274 thawmus Jun 25, 2007 14:14:03	Any thoughts on playing into epic levels? I'm playing a straight beguilder (1-20) in Savage tide. Currently we are only level 12, but its been hinted at that this will probably go epic, if not quite a few levels into epic. I have very little epic experience at all, and there seems to be no epic progression for beguilers. Any thoughts on how to prepare for epic, and what to take (class,prc,feats) once you get there? My thoughts would be to keep the Advanced Learning Progression, and have it so you can pick any spell at epic levels, rather than the usual limitation. Also, I would have the DM work with you to come up with a way to keep increasing the Cloaked Casting DC increase. With Epic levels, it's not ridiculous to ask for an increase at about +1 per 4 or 5 levels. Obviously, you don't need any help against Spell Resistance anymore with cloaked casting by that time, which will make your beguiler one of the more powerful characters in the group at that time, considering how essential SR is at Epic levels. Then I would work with the DM to ensure that you learn 3 or 4 epic illusion/enchantment/divination spells right off the bat. Maybe one of each. The way I would justify it is simply the way your class' spell list works. When you level up, and gain access to new spells, you typically gain a whole mound-full of them. Aside from all that, I'd refer to the DMG, PHB II, and Epic Level handbook for determining saves, BAB, etc. Chances are high that the Beguiler's BAB isn't going to get any better, but his Will save should still be nifty.
#275 enigmashock Jun 25, 2007 15:26:31	My thoughts would be to keep the Advanced Learning Progression, and have it so you can pick any spell at epic levels, rather than the usual limitation. Also, I would have the DM work with you to come up with a way to keep increasing the Cloaked Casting DC increase. With Epic levels, it's not ridiculous to ask for an increase at about +1 per 4 or 5 levels. Obviously, you don't need any help against Spell Resistance anymore with cloaked casting by that time, which will make your beguiler one of the more powerful characters in the group at that time, considering how essential SR is at Epic levels. Then I would work with the DM to ensure that you learn 3 or 4 epic illusion/enchantment/divination spells right off the bat. Maybe one of each. The way I would justify it is simply the way your class' spell list works. When you level up, and gain access to new spells, you typically gain a whole mound-full of them. Aside from all that, I'd refer to the DMG, PHB II, and Epic Level handbook for determining saves, BAB, etc. Chances are high that the Beguiler's BAB isn't going to get any better, but his Will save should still be nifty. Also, one could look to the Sorcerer progression as a guideline . . .
#276 Todd Jun 25, 2007 16:32:40	Or adapt the stuff for the epic Warmage found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20031206a
#277 nicholas_the_paladin Jun 27, 2007 1:34:11	@Amatulic: Headband of Conscious Effort (CAd, 4,000 gp) - 1/day, make a Concentration check in place of a Fortitude save. I'm not quite sure, but I think that this item is 2000gp now in the MIC. (it get's even better) And I have another idea: The "Heartening" shield ability (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) hasn't been put on the list. 720 gp for 5 temp HP that is activated as an immediate action and lasts for 4 minutes, 1/day Buy a masterwork Heartening buckler+1 for +2 to AC, no ACP, and 5 temporary hit points. That'll be 1720 alltogether. A perfect match for the beguiler that could use a little bit more AC ánd HP's
#278 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2007 12:50:39	I appologize if someone already mentioned this, but Obtain Familiar (CA) can be a good feat for a beguiler. See The Familiars' Handbook for details.
#279 tealgorthian Jun 30, 2007 13:30:23	I skimmed the thread, twice, I didnt read every post word for word, I so I'm sorry. But is there anything stopping a Beguiler from taking things like Arcane Disciple to add spells like.. oh say, Teleport to his known list?
#280 anomalousman Jul 01, 2007 3:10:41	Great handbook. The 'Extra Spell' feat doesn't work for Beguilers, though. They can only choose spells from their class list, and they already know all those. I haven't read past the first couple of pages, but 'Arcane Disciple' from Complete Divine might be a better choice, as it provides 9 spells to your class list at once. The disadvantages are that you need knowledge (religion), some spellcraft, and lots of wisdom to actually use those spells. Edit: Hah! Beaten to the suggestion earlier in the day, while I slowly built my beguiler. The downside is the wisdom requirement. You need 19 wisdom to get all nine spells.
#281 seeker_of_truth_02 Jul 01, 2007 3:23:42	Headband of Conscious Effort (CAd, 4,000 gp) - 1/day, make a Concentration check in place of a Fortitude save. I'm not quite sure, but I think that this item is 2000gp now in the MIC. (it get's even better) There's a subtle nerf in the update that justifies the lower cost. The headband now requires an immediate action. This means you can't use it when flat footed, and that when you do use it you've used up your next rounds swift action.
#282 mattblacke Jul 01, 2007 11:54:59	This is a great handbook. I'm trying my hand at one now. Didn't roll the best stats (no minuses, but my best were 3 15s, ah well) One thing to note for the Divine Oracle PrC: You need the Skill Focus: Know Religion feat for entry as well as the 8 ranks of Know. Religion. Can be tough with a feat crunch. Educated from PGtF also nets you all Know sills as class skills, and a +2 in one, so getting into some Know. heavy PrCs might be a bit easier.
#283 Kurama_Youko Jul 01, 2007 14:38:35	I just wanted to post a Combat Beguiler, but didnt know if anyone did this build yet, since there was no table of content. Humna Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 Feats: (F)Dodge, (F)Mobility, (H)Air Bloodline, 1st-Combat Casting, 3rd-Spell Focus (Enchantment), 6th-Practice Spellcaster, 9th-Arcane Strike, 12th-Born Aloft, 15th-Diving Charge, 18th-Run, Flaws: Honorable Challenge, Restricted Sorcery (Necromancy, Evocation) Notes: Swiftblade can be found on the main website. The Flaws Restricted Sorcery can be found in Dragon 327, Honorable Challenge can be found in Dragon 324. The Feat Air Bloodline can be found in Dragon Compenidum. Benefits: BAB 17, 2 good saves (Ref, Will), 20th lv caster, 8th lv spells. 50% Concealment vs Spells and Ranged and Melee Attacks. Time Stop type effect. Neat Trick: Born Aloft + Swiftsurge + Haste means you have a fly speed of 80ft perfect maneuverability once per round as a move actions. Neat Trick: The Above + Diving Charge = 4d6 extra damage to your attack and you still have a extra standard action or move action to take. Neat Trick: The Above + Arcane Strike = Extra Goodness. Downside: No 9th lv spells, can't use Shout from your air bloodline feat. Other Combat Options: Bounding Assault
#284 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 02, 2007 2:26:30	An item I found skimming the Magic Item Compendium is the 'ectoplasmic armour' (skin). It gives you +8 armour bonus, max dex is +2, has armourpenalties and arcane spell failure (but since it is light armour, it doesn't pose a problem for the beguiler), for just 8000gp (or was it 6000gp)....that's a great deal. the armourpenalties can even be overcome, since it just take s you a standard action to get rid of the armour, so you can quickly don and remove it when needed. EDIT: it's 6000 gp
#285 thawmus Jul 03, 2007 11:55:25	My Beguiler just hit level 6 (Took level 1 of Mindbender), grabbed Extend Spell, Conceal Spellcasting, and a Headband of Intellect +2, along with a Cloak of Resistance +1. And I have to say, the improvement between this and level 5 is astonishing. I cast Legion of Sentinels around a prone enemy, and then proceeded to grant my entire party Haste. On top of this, Deep Slumber and similar spells have become quite useful.
#286 irwing Jul 03, 2007 18:48:34	I like Beguiler 5 / Fiend-Blooded 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 Take the first 5 Beguiler levels, then take 4 levels in Fiend-Blooded (use Fiendish Sorcery at level 9 to get Shadow Conjuration to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage.) At level 10, enter Shadowcraft Mage and get all 5 levels. Then, finish with Fiend-Blooded; you get your last level as a Fiend-Blooded at level 20, when you can already cast IX level spells, so that spellcasting is not delayed. Ends up with nice stat bonuses (+1 Cha, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Str) and access to some spells that should not be available to Beguilers (one level 1 spell from Advanced Learning. one level 3 spell, one level 4 spell, one level 8 spell and two level 9 spells from Fiendish Sorcery.) These can be taken from any spell list, arcane or divine, coming from the illusion, enchantment or necromancy school, or any spell with the fire descriptor. Then, you get all of the Shadowcraft Mage goodies, just with even more spell versatility.
#287 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 04, 2007 1:19:25	I got my MIC yesterday and right away started to look for nice items for the beguiler. I focused mainly on the cheaper items, because I got the feeling that most expensive items are usefull for all and not just te beguiler. Some items I have already mentioned beforen MUST HAVES: - headband of conscious effort (MIC, p.109)- 2000gp has been mentioned before - ring of the darkhidden (p.122)- 2000 gp has been mentioned before - Psychoactive skin: ectoplasmic armour (p.170) -6000gp has been mentioned before. Is a *slotless* item you wear on you body. - gloves of the starry sky (p. 204) -1100gp These pair of gloves give you 'light' at will, but the real treat is the 'magic missles 3 /day at *your* caster level. So when at higher levels you stand against some critters that are immune to your spells, this baby will give you a nice option (it uses 1st level spellslots) REALLY NICE EXTRA'S - anklet of translocation (MIC, p.71)- 1400 gp Make 10ft teleportation 'hop's as a swift action, 2/day. This will get you past that mean looking opponent or that door that wouldn't budge - cloak of elemental protection (p.87)- 1000gp Has been mentioned before. Get resistance-10 versus any energytype as an immediate action - dimension stride boots (p.94)- 2000gp make a teleportation 'jump' up to 60ft as a standard action, has several charges/day. Great for a gettaway to a safer place or to get past those guards - shadow maniple (p.370)- 3700 gp Each time you cast a spell with the shadow-descriptor, you get healing equal to the spelllevel. Casting 'shadow conjuration' has never been as much fun as without this. - eternal wand, 1st level (p.159)- 820 gp get to use 1st level spells 2/day, even if they're not on your spelllist. - magic bedroll (p.163)- 500 gp heal 1hp/level *extra* when sleeping, besides the usual healing you get from rest
#288 Todd Jul 04, 2007 8:49:13	The Gloves of the Starry Sky are part of the Raiment of the Four Pieces set. Pretty much all of them are worthwhile for a Beguiler. Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball & the Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting at your level ... both in addition to other effects.
#289 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 04, 2007 9:53:00	The Gloves of the Starry Sky are part of the Raiment of the Four Pieces set. Pretty much all of them are worthwhile for a Beguiler. Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball & the Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting at your level ... both in addition to other effects. Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball at your level, but with a reflex-DC of 14. That's utter crap for 4000 Gp (but maybe that's just me). I let our Wizard cast that spell and get a decent result. The magic missles from Gloves of the Starry Sky of course don't require a save, so are very usefull. Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting 1/day and the price (8000gp) is much higher then the other items. (Teleport is very usefull, but maybe it sounds foolish, we didn't use it untill now. Somehow we consider this spell somewhat of a gamebreaker (storywise) and never use it.)
#290 arjomanes Jul 04, 2007 16:38:33	I just played my first game as a 1st level beguiler. In the beginning the party consisted of a human beguiler and a human warblade, later joined by a dwarf ranger. That will be the entire party for quite some time, discounting possible NPCs. My character's stats are STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 14. His feats are Apprentice and Able Learner. Equipment: rapier, two daggers, light crossbow, and miscellaneous adventuring equipment. No armor. Well we woke up a bit bloody and disoriented in a cave on a small lake. The warblade woke up first and swam across the lake, but I stuck around to find out what was going on -- a character with 16 intelligence and 8 wisdom is going to try to find out what's going on. I cast Mage Armor on myself since my 8 strength means I pretty much can't wear armor without being encumbered. Within minutes I came across a large snake and half the body of some poor guy. I put the snake to sleep, looked around the small cave, searched the body, and attempted to swim across the lake (I could have coup de graced the animal, but didn't see the point). After splashing around a bit and going under (due to some poor rolls, poor strength, and no ranks in swim) I finally made it across to the other side. On the opposite shore we encountered undead in a devastated town(actually more campaign-specific creatures reanimated by the plane of shadow), which put me at a disadvantage, especially since enchantment spells wouldn't work and the only weapon I was any good with was my light crossbow. I avoided a surprise attack with a silent image I used as a decoy, but otherwise didn't get much use out of my spells. Fortunately the warblade made short work of them, but I was reduced from 8 to 2 hp pretty quickly as I got stuck in melee combat frequently. We met the dwarf and took the boat towards the town downriver. We rested overnight and I got my spells back and healed 4 hp (1 normal and 3 subdual). We had to portage the boat (I carried the paddles), and got attacked by wolves. In this encounter my character did really well. I took out three wolves with two sleep spells, the whelm spells worked well and the ranks in concentration paid off while casting defensively while prone and surrounded by wolves. I managed to kill 4 out of 6 wolves, though I got reduced to 2 hp, the dwarf to 1 and the warblade (who rolled really badly) to -5. Overall, I was pretty satisfied with my character. He did well at what I expected he'd do well at (enchantment spells, hiding, casting defensively, illusions) and poorly at what I'd thought his weaknesses were (carrying things, swimming, fighting undead). Casting spontaneously from the large list of some of the best spells is really powerful, and I'd say beguiler is probably one of the strongest spellcasting classes at low levels. The d6 hit dice are also a nice advantage.
#291 Todd Jul 05, 2007 6:45:53	Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball at your level, but with a reflex-DC of 14. That's utter crap for 4000 Gp (but maybe that's just me). I let our Wizard cast that spell and get a decent result. I agree that the DC sucks ... but I find being able to do area damage from time useful. Against say a swarm of mindless undead this isn't a bad play even with the poor DC. Plus not all beguilers are going to be in parties with a Wizard. Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting 1/day and the price (8000gp) is much higher then the other items. (Teleport is very usefull, but maybe it sounds foolish, we didn't use it untill now. Somehow we consider this spell somewhat of a gamebreaker (storywise) and never use it.) Teleport gets used frequently in most of the games I play in. It's almost a must have.
#292 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 05, 2007 7:31:51	- Psychoactive skin: ectoplasmic armour (p.170) -6000gp has been mentioned before. Is a *slotless* item you wear on you body. I stand corrected. I found out that this item imposes a -6 penalty on skill like Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand. Although donning and removingh this item is just a standard action, these skill will be used a lot by the Beguiler in combat (at least, I do). Removing the skin everytime you try to Hide is a waste of standard actions.
#293 thawmus Jul 05, 2007 9:42:13	I just played my first game as a 1st level beguiler. In the beginning the party consisted of a human beguiler and a human warblade, later joined by a dwarf ranger. That will be the entire party for quite some time, discounting possible NPCs. My character's stats are STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 14. His feats are Apprentice and Able Learner. Equipment: rapier, two daggers, light crossbow, and miscellaneous adventuring equipment. No armor. Well we woke up a bit bloody and disoriented in a cave on a small lake. The warblade woke up first and swam across the lake, but I stuck around to find out what was going on -- a character with 16 intelligence and 8 wisdom is going to try to find out what's going on. I cast Mage Armor on myself since my 8 strength means I pretty much can't wear armor without being encumbered. Within minutes I came across a large snake and half the body of some poor guy. I put the snake to sleep, looked around the small cave, searched the body, and attempted to swim across the lake (I could have coup de graced the animal, but didn't see the point). After splashing around a bit and going under (due to some poor rolls, poor strength, and no ranks in swim) I finally made it across to the other side. On the opposite shore we encountered undead in a devastated town(actually more campaign-specific creatures reanimated by the plane of shadow), which put me at a disadvantage, especially since enchantment spells wouldn't work and the only weapon I was any good with was my light crossbow. I avoided a surprise attack with a silent image I used as a decoy, but otherwise didn't get much use out of my spells. Fortunately the warblade made short work of them, but I was reduced from 8 to 2 hp pretty quickly as I got stuck in melee combat frequently. We met the dwarf and took the boat towards the town downriver. We rested overnight and I got my spells back and healed 4 hp (1 normal and 3 subdual). We had to portage the boat (I carried the paddles), and got attacked by wolves. In this encounter my character did really well. I took out three wolves with two sleep spells, the whelm spells worked well and the ranks in concentration paid off while casting defensively while prone and surrounded by wolves. I managed to kill 4 out of 6 wolves, though I got reduced to 2 hp, the dwarf to 1 and the warblade (who rolled really badly) to -5. Overall, I was pretty satisfied with my character. He did well at what I expected he'd do well at (enchantment spells, hiding, casting defensively, illusions) and poorly at what I'd thought his weaknesses were (carrying things, swimming, fighting undead). Casting spontaneously from the large list of some of the best spells is really powerful, and I'd say beguiler is probably one of the strongest spellcasting classes at low levels. The d6 hit dice are also a nice advantage. Sounds a lot like my first game with my Beguiler. I had a few jerk players with me at the time that thought I was a complete pushover.....until I started casting sleep on everything in sight. my abilities aren't much different, either (they're high, due to the way our DM allows ability score rolls): Race: Grey Elf Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1 Str 8 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 21 (HB of Intellect +2 - 23) Wis 12 Cha 17 Flaws: Noncombatant, and the one that's -1 AC Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Focus (Echantment), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Extend Spell So yeah, I really can't get mixed into fights very often, and my concentration checks are about 2 short of where I'd rather have them be, but my DC's are sickeningly high. Now if I can get my DM to stop rolling 20's for his saves, I'll be happier....
#294 thawmus Jul 05, 2007 9:46:14	I stand corrected. I found out that this item imposes a -6 penalty on skill like Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand. Although donning and removingh this item is just a standard action, these skill will be used a lot by the Beguiler in combat (at least, I do). Removing the skin everytime you try to Hide is a waste of standard actions. It's probably not that bad if you're invisible, but I can see where the move silently penalty can be bothersome. I dunno if I really like this item, to be frank. Amping up my AC doesn't really seem to be that practical unless I was really into surprise casting. Which I haven't really been doing ever since I got my 2nd level spells.
#295 arjomanes Jul 05, 2007 10:42:27	Sounds a lot like my first game with my Beguiler. I had a few jerk players with me at the time that thought I was a complete pushover.....until I started casting sleep on everything in sight. my abilities aren't much different, either (they're high, due to the way our DM allows ability score rolls): Race: Grey Elf Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1 Str 8 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 21 (HB of Intellect +2 - 23) Wis 12 Cha 17 Flaws: Noncombatant, and the one that's -1 AC Feats: Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Focus (Echantment), Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Extend Spell So yeah, I really can't get mixed into fights very often, and my concentration checks are about 2 short of where I'd rather have them be, but my DC's are sickeningly high. Now if I can get my DM to stop rolling 20's for his saves, I'll be happier.... Yeah your DCs would have to be insane with a 23 Int. And your AC must be pretty good too. We had to use 28 pt buy, so my stats are pretty low. I'm looking forward to picking up some stat-boosting items in the next levels. That's my main priority -- boosting intelligence and dexterity.
#296 tealgorthian Jul 05, 2007 11:21:08	So I'm rolling a Beguiler for a one shot game. 7th level. THinking of rolling out with Beguiler6/Mindbender 1 Stats: Str 10 Dex: 17 Con 12 Int: 18 Wis: 15 Cha: 14 Taking the -2 ranged attack rolls and another flaw I havent picked. Race: Silverbrow Human (Races of the Dragon) Feats (So far): Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Focus (Illusion), Arcane Disciple (Shadow), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Penetration (thinking of taking another flaw to get Arcane Mastery) The Shadow Domain gives me 1st: Obscuring Mist 2nd: Darkness 3rd: Deeper Darkness 4th: Shadow Conjuration 5th: Shadow Evocation 6th: Shadow Walk 7th: Shadow Conjuration, Greater 8th: Shadow Evocation, Greater 9th: Shades How does this look so far to you Beguiler experts?
#297 dead_radish Jul 05, 2007 12:57:58	So I'm rolling a Beguiler for a one shot game. 7th level. THinking of rolling out with Beguiler6/Mindbender 1 If it's a one-shot, there's no reason to take Mindbender 1 - just go Beguiler 7 and get your extra spell. It won't be optimal, but you aren't concerned with progression down the road, just current power level....
#298 tealgorthian Jul 05, 2007 13:04:32	If it's a one-shot, there's no reason to take Mindbender 1 - just go Beguiler 7 and get your extra spell. It won't be optimal, but you aren't concerned with progression down the road, just current power level.... I was actully doing it from the scout role.. scout ahead and warn the party if what is around the corner silently. Telepathy is insane. Plus there is always the possibly of running the character at a later date in another game with the same DM.
#299 thawmus Jul 05, 2007 14:28:12	So I'm rolling a Beguiler for a one shot game. 7th level. THinking of rolling out with Beguiler6/Mindbender 1 Stats: Str 10 Dex: 17 Con 12 Int: 18 Wis: 15 Cha: 14 Taking the -2 ranged attack rolls and another flaw I havent picked. Race: Silverbrow Human (Races of the Dragon) Feats (So far): Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Focus (Illusion), Arcane Disciple (Shadow), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Penetration (thinking of taking another flaw to get Arcane Mastery) The Shadow Domain gives me 1st: Obscuring Mist 2nd: Darkness 3rd: Deeper Darkness 4th: Shadow Conjuration 5th: Shadow Evocation 6th: Shadow Walk 7th: Shadow Conjuration, Greater 8th: Shadow Evocation, Greater 9th: Shades How does this look so far to you Beguiler experts? Switch your Dex and Con ability scores. Your Concentration check really needs to be high with this class, as I've learned the hard way. Especially if you want to use Swift Concentration down the road. Dex is nice for a lot of your skills, but with the spells you'll have at your disposal, not completely necessary. Here's what I'd do with ability scores, based on what you have shown here: Str 10 Dex: 15 Con 17 Int: 18 Wis: 12 Cha: 14
#300 arjomanes Jul 05, 2007 15:25:21	Switch your Dex and Con ability scores. Your Concentration check really needs to be high with this class, as I've learned the hard way. Especially if you want to use Swift Concentration down the road. Dex is nice for a lot of your skills, but with the spells you'll have at your disposal, not completely necessary. Here's what I'd do with ability scores, based on what you have shown here: Str 10 Dex: 15 Con 17 Int: 18 Wis: 12 Cha: 14 The 12 wisdom won't work with arcane disciple. Do you need the darkness spells, or could you just take the most important ones with advanced learning? Obscuring Mist and Shadow Walk are redundant, darkness isn't that great, and shadow evoc/conj can get picked up via advanced learning. I don't think you need a 17 Con. You get skill points to put ranks in Concentration. I think a 14-16 Con should be adequate.
#301 aedan Jul 05, 2007 16:27:36	I just wanted to post a Combat Beguiler, but didnt know if anyone did this build yet, since there was no table of content. Humna Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 Feats: (F)Dodge, (F)Mobility, (H)Air Bloodline, 1st-Combat Casting, 3rd-Spell Focus (Enchantment), 6th-Practice Spellcaster, 9th-Arcane Strike, 12th-Born Aloft, 15th-Diving Charge, 18th-Run, Flaws: Honorable Challenge, Restricted Sorcery (Necromancy, Evocation) Notes: Swiftblade can be found on the main website. The Flaws Restricted Sorcery can be found in Dragon 327, Honorable Challenge can be found in Dragon 324. The Feat Air Bloodline can be found in Dragon Compenidum. Benefits: BAB 17, 2 good saves (Ref, Will), 20th lv caster, 8th lv spells. 50% Concealment vs Spells and Ranged and Melee Attacks. Time Stop type effect. Neat Trick: Born Aloft + Swiftsurge + Haste means you have a fly speed of 80ft perfect maneuverability once per round as a move actions. Neat Trick: The Above + Diving Charge = 4d6 extra damage to your attack and you still have a extra standard action or move action to take. Neat Trick: The Above + Arcane Strike = Extra Goodness. Downside: No 9th lv spells, can't use Shout from your air bloodline feat. Other Combat Options: Bounding Assault Yes, very good!!! In addition to this great build, there are other bequiler/Swiftblade builds in the Swiftblade handbook. Have a look. Ninjarabbit has put forth a lot of effort to create the bequiler/swiftblade mini-guide. I hope that it will give you some great ideas. Look Here if you DARE!!!:P :D
#302 tiercel Jul 05, 2007 21:50:56	First off, great handbook! It's good to see an updated, more organized version of the other handbook. A couple of minor thoughts: If you like gnome for beguiler, though it's arguably cheese you should probably consider the forest gnome -- it's Core (MM), LA+0, and pretty much strictly better than a standard gnome. Heck, if your DM gives you flak about it being strictly better, ask him if even forest gnome gives as many goodies as dwarf ;) One of the things I first noticed when I looked into the beguiler class was the level 1 spell problem -- namely, what level 1 spells do you spam when you get to higher levels? For wizard types, there are several level 1 spells that are still good even at higher levels (e.g. ray of enfeeblement, grease, magic missile), and being able to turn level 1 slots into cure light wounds (or better yet, lesser vigor) for downtime healing is almost never useless for classes that can do so. But what can beguilers spam in their level 1 slots, either in downtime or in less critical combat rounds? Silent image is probably the most obvious on the beguiler list, though (like all figments) exactly what you can get away with and how fast the DM gives your opponents Will saves for "interacting" may determine its usefulness. So it seems to me that one of the most important things of the first Advanced Learning choice is that it should be a spell that can readily be spammed at higher levels to reasonable use. Higher level slots don't have this problem so much (you can pretty much always spam spells like invisibility, displacement, and haste for instance). Distract assailant (SpC, etc.), as has been mentioned, is one excellent choice -- it is a swift action and it makes activating Cloaked Casting easier. Another fun choice is shock and awe (SpC). Besides the amusing name, it can nail a group of opponents, giving your whole party a pretty significant advantage in the first round of combat, and offers no saving throw (which can be valuable in the upper levels when the save DC on a 1st level spell is not cutting it so much). It requires you to be kind of focused on attaining surprise rounds since it can only be cast in a surprise round, but if you are a max-rank Hide and Move Silently character with access to invisibility (and even silence), not to mention disguise magic, this is not such a stretch. Yes, you can only pull it once per combat, but if you can meet its conditions it gives you a bigger potential advantage at no save, and at the canonical "4 encounters per day" will still let you burn through a fair number of 1st level spells. Another fun choice depends on a feat -- if you like the Unsettling Enchantment feat anyway (opponents take -2 for a round when forced to save vs an Enchantment, regardless of success) then you might look at incite (SpC). By itself it is not very exciting, but with Unsettling Enchantment you are giving all creatures in a 10' burst a -2 penalty for a round, no save, as a swift action. As a *side effect* you might also prevent them from delaying or readying an action. Basically this last spell is interesting just because there are relatively few area effect Enchantments, and so you can power your Unsettling Enchantment feat by burning swift actions and 1st level slots. I'm not saying that these are *better* choices than the excellent distract assailant spell for a beguiler, but they are worth considering, particularly moreso the more often you fight groups of opponents and/or are part of a significantly large party.
#303 tealgorthian Jul 06, 2007 0:38:14	The 12 wisdom won't work with arcane disciple. Do you need the darkness spells, or could you just take the most important ones with advanced learning? Obscuring Mist and Shadow Walk are redundant, darkness isn't that great, and shadow evoc/conj can get picked up via advanced learning. I don't think you need a 17 Con. You get skill points to put ranks in Concentration. I think a 14-16 Con should be adequate. I also need a 15 Wis to get Shadow Weave Magic. The DM allows use to use the Arcane Disciple spells with our primary casting stat (Int, obviously), so that is the only reason I need the 15 Wis (I suppose I could worship Shar :P). I'm alot more interested in the feat after this afternoon, found out that we will be playing these characters off-and-on. WHich means I will eventually get access to Shades, and the Greater Conj/Evo spells. If I do it this way, arent there alot of other spells I can take as advanced learning? That said, it isn't crucial to my build, but I am trying for a Master of Shadows Beguiler, so it fits nicely in theme. The spells I am really after are Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, and Shades. The question is, are those three spells worth a feat? I'm new to this type of caster, I usually play a more direct style, or a buffer. For my first Advanced Learning I was looking at taking Distract assailant, but it has Will negates as a save, and I was looking at focusing more on the Illusion side of Beguile-ing. Too bad there is no way to delay the 3rd level advanced learning till 4th level :P Unless I did that Spelltheif/Master Spelltheif trick. Hm.
#304 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 06, 2007 2:28:44	So I'm rolling a Beguiler for a one shot game. 7th level. THinking of rolling out with Beguiler6/Mindbender 1 How does this look so far to you Beguiler experts? Don't take Mindbender as your PrC, but take Shadow Adept (PGtF). It gives you 3 highly usefull feats almost for free.
#305 Todd Jul 06, 2007 8:27:50	Just out of curiosity why don't more folks suggest the Unseen Seer PrC from the Complete Mage? It's easy for the Beguiler to qualify for, has a similar stealthy skill set, and medium BAB. Further it's easy to fit in at CL 6 or 7 to delay the Beguiler's second advanced learning spell, no feats required or anything. If you take 2 levels you get a divination spell from ANY list via the PrC's Advanced Learning. You can take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to offset the CL loss from any levels you take beyond 2nd if you want to go that route. Further under adaptation they mention an option that focuses on Illusion spells instead of Divination ... if the DM allows that then it’s a great fit for the Beguiler & potentially makes the PrC worth taking all 10 levels. I’m currently playing a Whisper Gnome Beguiler aiming for Shadowcraft Mage and I’ll be taking levels of Unseen Seer at CL 7 & 14. The DM banned Lords of Madness & without Mindsight, Unseen Seer looked like a better option than Mindbender. In any event I would probably take Unseen Seer over the article recommended Visionary Seeker in many games.
#306 tealgorthian Jul 06, 2007 10:51:02	Don't take Mindbender as your PrC, but take Shadow Adept (PGtF). It gives you 3 highly usefull feats almost for free. In my other post (above) I noted this will be a more long term game (now.. wish he'd make up his mind :P). I was planning on doing this for my level advancment Beguiler6/Mindbender1/Beguiler+1/Shadow Adept1/Beguiler+11 I REALLY want Telepathy. I mean.. badly. I have another character with Telepathy, and it's just stupidly useful. Looking at taking Mindsight too. I'm a human, I need a way to see in the freaking dark.
#307 lotofsnow Jul 07, 2007 22:25:11	I don't think this was mentioned, but Spellcasting Prodigy from the Dragonlance "Age of Mortals" book (page 51) lets you consider your Intelligence as 2 points higher in regards to bonus spells and DCs. I know the Player's Guide to Faerun has a similar feat of the same name that doesn't increase DCs, but if you have a DM that allows access to "Age of Mortals," it could be useful.
#308 tealgorthian Jul 07, 2007 23:08:21	So I completely redid my character. Here's the (nearly) final version Human (Native Outsider) Beguiler6/Shadow Adept 1 Str: 8 Dex: 17 Con: 15 Int: 21 (Base 18, +1 level, +2 Enhancement) Wis: 12 Cha: 14 Flaws: Noncombatent (-2 Melee attack rolls), Pathetic (COuld only take it to apply to str, to get a neg mod, houserule) Feats: Shadow Weave Magic, Otherworldly, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion), Insidous Magic, Teneacious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Penetration (THis last one.. do I need it, you think?) Skills: Bluff: 9 Ranks (+11) Concentration: 9 Ranks (+11) Diplomacy: 10 Ranks (+14) Gather Information: 7 Ranks (+9) Hide: 9 ranks (+12) Knowledge (Arcana): 8 Ranks (+13) Listen: 8 Ranks (+9) Move Silently 9 Ranks (+12) Search: 9 Ranks (+14) Spellcraft: 8 Ranks (+15) Use Magic Device: 10 Ranks (+12) Armor: +1 Studded Leather (Will upgrade later, just wanted something cheap with no ACP) Gear: Heward's handy Haversack Scroll of Rope Trick x4 Wand of Ray of Clumsiness (1d6+1 Dex Penalty, no save ranged touch) Elixir of Sneaking x2 Talisman of the Disc (Summon Tenser's Floating Disc, MiC) Masterwork Longspoon Theives' Tools Crowbar Flint and Steel Grappling Hook Lock, Good Masterwork Manacles Spool of Endless Rope (MiC Version) Ladder, 10ft Pole, 10ft Tent Tanglefoot Bag x4 Climber's Kit Courtier's Outfit x2 Explorer's Outfit x5 (yes, we track out clothes used.. penalties on Diplomacy if you stink!) Spell Component Pouch Smokestick x10 Worn Magic Items: Head: Headband of Intellect +2 Hands: Gloves of the Starry Sky (I love these! I love Magic Missile) Body: +1 Studded Leather Ring 1: Ring of the Darkhidden Ring 2: Ring of Sustance Feet: Anklet of Translocation (Teleport 10ft 2/day) 772 GP left How does this look for an Illusion Master Beguiler? How badly did I screw up? OH. The smokesticks. Purely for cool points. Throw down a smokestick and cast Invisibility. Instant Ninja vanish.
#309 friendlyfrog Jul 07, 2007 23:10:52	Humans unfortunately don't qualify for Otherworldly, it has strict racial requirements.
#310 tealgorthian Jul 07, 2007 23:21:54	Humans unfortunately don't qualify for Otherworldly, it has strict racial requirements. It would take too long to explain, but my character does ;) So long as I agree not to ever cast Alter Self or Polymorph.
#311 friendlyfrog Jul 08, 2007 3:24:06	Nevermind that then.
#312 alratan Jul 08, 2007 11:54:04	Humans unfortunately don't qualify for Otherworldly, it has strict racial requirements. Humans do qualify for Otherworldly as of Champions of Valor, I believe.
#313 friendlyfrog Jul 08, 2007 12:07:20	Humans do qualify for Otherworldly as of Champions of Valor, I believe. No, that backgroung thingie only lets one qualify for the feat even if he's from a region that's not normally allowed. The racial requirements still remain. It's sad, I was so happy when someone mentioned it, but when I checked it I saw that the wording is pretty clear that it doesn't work that way. The flavor does suggest that it could or should work that way, though, that's where the misconception comes.
#314 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 09, 2007 5:56:32	So I completely redid my character. Here's the (nearly) final version Feats: Shadow Weave Magic, Otherworldly, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion), Insidous Magic, Teneacious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Penetration (THis last one.. do I need it, you think?) . Teneacious Magic already gives you +4 versus Weave-users to overcome SR, So the +2 from Spell Penetration won't be that nescecarry. I would take spellfocus (enchantment) in stead. the rest looks fine.
#315 tealgorthian Jul 09, 2007 10:41:25	Teneacious Magic already gives you +4 versus Weave-users to overcome SR, So the +2 from Spell Penetration won't be that nescecarry. I would take spellfocus (enchantment) in stead. the rest looks fine. Shadow Weave Magic also gives you a +1, I dunno if you are aware of that ;) The only downside is.. you lose Color Spray (gasp! Horror! :eyeroll: ) I was thinking either SF: Enchantment or Dazzling Illusion. Now.. to build this guys brother. (Gah. I have to play two characters)
#316 eldragon Jul 09, 2007 12:48:34	What are good feats and tactics a beguiler should do if faced with Mindless opponents? e.g. A Level 2 Beguiler in a dungeon crawl with Zombies? I'm rolling a Human Beguiler and I am tempted to take Point blank shot and Precise shot just to give myself something to do in combat.
#317 feeb Jul 09, 2007 13:34:30	Well, spells with the shadow descriptor (such as Shadow Conjuration) can affect undead, as A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real. I believe figments, such as Major Image work as well, but this is debatable, especially if your DM uses material out of Libris Mortis, such as life sight.
#318 lotofsnow Jul 09, 2007 15:45:33	Here's a beguiler I intend to use in an Eberron campaign starting Wednesday. Campaign starts at 2nd level and I can use Core, Completes (don't have Complete Champion), Races of X, and Eberron books. This isn't an optimized build, but I hope it will be an effective one. The campaign is only supposed to last up through level 9, so I won't be going into Shadowcraft Mage. I'd prefer to remain straight Beguiler all the way through. My rolled stats were 18,17,15,14,13,13. I chose Whisper Gnome as my race and made him middle aged to get +1 to my mental stats at the cost of -1 to my physical stats. Cadfan Gottfrid Whisper Gnome, Beguiler 2 STR: 10 [13 -2(race) -1(age)] DEX: 15 [14 +2(race) -1(age)] CON: 16 [15 +2(race) -1(age)] INT: 19 [18 +1(age)] WIS: 14 [13 +1(age)] CHA: 16 [(17 -2(race) +1(age)] I took two flaws: Noncombatent and, a home brew one I found online that I have enjoyed in the past, Jinxed(DM forces me to reroll one successful die roll per day). My feats are: Spellcasting Prodigy (the Dragonlance: Age of Mortals version), Extra Silence (Races of Stone), and Combat Expertise. Now, my role will be scout/skill monkey/battlefield control. There is a Sorceress in the party that can act as the face/blaster. Here's my thought... I want to avoid melee as much as possible. This seems counterintuitive to me though, since Surprise Casting is a defining feature of the class and it needs to be used in melee. Even with a longspear, I'd be a five-foot step away from a full attack. Would it be better for me to focus on increasing my spellcasting DCs without Surprise Casting (i.e. by choosing, say, Spell Focus Illusion now and Spell Focus Enchantment at level 3 instead of using two feats on Combat Expertise and Improved Feint)? Here is how I see my options: Surprise Casting focus: 1- Spellcasting Prodigy, Extra Silence, Combat Expertise 3- Improved Feint 6- Spell Focus (Illusion) 9- Spell Focus (Enchantment) or DC Focus 1- Spellcasting Prodigy, Extra Silence, Spell Focus (Illusion) 3- Spell Focus (Enchantment) 6- Mastery of Dreams (Illusion) 9- Darkstalker Opinions?
#319 feeb Jul 09, 2007 15:56:40	Here's my thought... I want to avoid melee as much as possible. This seems counterintuitive to me though, since Surprise Casting is a defining feature of the class and it needs to be used in melee. Even with a longspear, I'd be a five-foot step away from a full attack. Perhaps you could blow a feat and pick up a whip instead (or not use a feat and just use it to "proc" the feint, since that just requires a bluff check and a weapon that threatens the opponent in melee range?) That gives you a bit more reach, and thus a bit more safety.
#320 lotofsnow Jul 09, 2007 15:58:38	Perhaps you could blow a feat and pick up a whip instead (or not use a feat and just use it to "proc" the feint, since that just requires a bluff check and a weapon that threatens the opponent in melee range?) That gives you a bit more reach, and thus a bit more safety. According to the Player's Handbook, whips don't threaten the area into which they attack, so would Feint still work?
#321 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 10, 2007 1:59:37	Here's my thought... I want to avoid melee as much as possible. This seems counterintuitive to me though, since Surprise Casting is a defining feature of the class and it needs to be used in melee. Even with a longspear, I'd be a five-foot step away from a full attack. Would it be better for me to focus on increasing my spellcasting DCs without Surprise Casting (i.e. by choosing, say, Spell Focus Illusion now and Spell Focus Enchantment at level 3 instead of using two feats on Combat Expertise and Improved Feint)? Dump the Improved feint feat. It's crap. Try to hide and gain the extra DC. that's more in line with the Beguiler idea and much more succesfull (and you'll live longer).
#322 lotofsnow Jul 11, 2007 11:29:20	Haha... today feels like Christmas. My DM just informed me that we are allowed characters with up to a +2 level adjustment. I mentioned the "Dark Creature" template from Tome of Magic. His response? "Sounds great!" Does Hiding in Plain Sight cause creatures to be flatfooted against you?
#323 arjomanes Jul 11, 2007 21:11:00	Well, spells with the shadow descriptor (such as Shadow Conjuration) can affect undead, as I believe figments, such as Major Image work as well, but this is debatable, especially if your DM uses material out of Libris Mortis, such as life sight. Lifesense is a feat in Libris Mortis, and if your DM is going out of his way to give all the undead in his campaign 13 Cha and a feat just so you can't use illusions on them, he's being a dick and metagaming. It's a good challenge now and then to come across some undead that can bypass your illusions without trouble, but zombies at level 2? Why would the zombies have that feat (their only feat) if they weren't normally intended to fight illusionists? It would make sense if the creator of the zombies knew your character was a famous illusionist, or if illusion magic was really common in that corner of the world. Otherwise he blew a feat on a very conditional type of spell that (coincidentally) your character just happens to specialize in. The only undead in the Monster Manual that naturally gets the Lifesense special ability is the Dread Wraith. And by that time you're already dealing with enemies with True Seeing. (apologies for the rant, but giving away Lifesense like candy really irritates me. It's a very powerful ability.) But yes, Shadow illusions will work. And any wands or scrolls you have will work better. I suggest ranks in UMD for this very reason. Otherwise, just use your crossbow or shortbow and take the penalty to hit if they're in melee (it will be pretty ineffective even with Precise Shot). Definitely don't waste feats on PBS and Precise- that's a complete waste for a beguiler.
#324 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 12, 2007 1:41:28	Haha... today feels like Christmas. My DM just informed me that we are allowed characters with up to a +2 level adjustment. I mentioned the "Dark Creature" template from Tome of Magic. His response? "Sounds great!" Well, I've said this before and I'll tell it again. You're better of taking the 'collar of Umbral metemorph' (10.500gp), in stead of taking the +2 LA. This items grants you these usefull abilities for a long enogh time. Does Hiding in Plain Sight cause creatures to be flatfooted against you? No, it allows you to hide much better, disallowing creatures there DEX to you, increasing you spell-DC's by cloaked casting. It's just as good.
#325 lotofsnow Jul 12, 2007 6:29:02	Well, I've said this before and I'll tell it again. You're better of taking the 'collar of Umbral metemorph' (10.500gp), in stead of taking the +2 LA. This items grants you these usefull abilities for a long enogh time. I totally agree with you for an optimized 20 level character, but the problem is this campaign is only going to 9th level. According to the wealth by level guidelines, I wouldn't be able to afford the collar until level 6. By taking a +1 level adjustment, I get many more levels of benefits. No, it allows you to hide much better, disallowing creatures there DEX to you, increasing you spell-DC's by cloaked casting. It's just as good. Oops, that was the question I meant to ask. Thanks Nicholas, you've been very helpful.
#326 whitishknight Jul 20, 2007 16:07:04	Has Nightmare Spinner from Complete Mage been mentioned? The earliest way I've found one can get into the prestige class is through Advance Learning Phastasmal Killer, because of the "ability to cast a fear spell" prerequisite, although I'm sure there are other spells that can achieve this at a lower level. It drops a caster level in favor of 1 extra illusion spell of every spell level per day, and a free nosave shaken effect on some of your illusion spells. Sounds like it would thematically function for evil beguilers as well.
#327 Richmud Jul 21, 2007 14:18:41	In the MM5 is a new race called the Jaebrin with beguiler as its favored class. Even though it has a +1 level adjustment I think it can still make a good beguiler because of its will save lowering bite attack, skill bonus to bluff and diplomacy, and increase in enchantment DCs. When you add to that its less beguiler specific goodies like immunity to enchantment and ability to fake being enchanted as well as a luck bonus to ac and bonuses to several other skills it seems like it can prove to be a useful race for a beguiler build especially if you can by off the LA and want to multiclass a bit
#328 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 30, 2007 1:38:07	My, my, this thread has grown since I was last able to check in. Looks like I have a lot of updating to do on the Handbook at the beginning of this thread. Thanks, much appreciated. Home life is swamping me at the moment so I haven't had a chance to make updates. Usually I find time before my next gaming session because it helps me focus on my character features. That won't be until July though. I hope to have time to enhance the handbook before then. -A @ Amatulic; did you have the time to checks the tips we've been posting after your last update ? What do you think? I'll be 4th level shortly. Then I can give some more tactical ideas how to use the 2nd level spells.
#329 enigmashock Jul 30, 2007 1:56:07	Just flew through level 7 with my guy, now heading to level 8 (3kxp) I have to say that a spell I didn't put too much stock in has saved my bacon 3 times now: Inevitable Defeat. . . Who'da thunk it?
#330 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 30, 2007 5:07:18	Just flew through level 7 with my guy, now heading to level 8 (3kxp) I have to say that a spell I didn't put too much stock in has saved my bacon 3 times now: Inevitable Defeat. . . Who'da thunk it? I wouldn't put my money on that spell either. How did it save you? In melee?
#331 enigmashock Jul 30, 2007 10:55:06	I wouldn't put my money on that spell either. How did it save you? In melee? Yeah, there is always that one guy in a mob, or a sneak attack guy that goes for the squishy. I have a changeling beguiler 6/mindbender 1. We also have a Elven Cleric/Stormlord (I think?), a human warblade, and an elf ranger (NPC) in our group. A three times were obviously different, but the result was the same. Feint as a move action with the spiked chain, touch attack Inevitable Defeat, and Blinding Color Surge asap. I have spell focus: enchant, and Gr spell focus enchant, so that's DC20 will or 3d6 nonlethal per round for seven rounds, unless save. Well, Blinding color surge makes me invisible from that guy for 7 rounds so I just move along, and let it do it's job. Baddie falls unconscious, coup-de-grace, and deposit his head next to the others.
#332 enigmashock Jul 30, 2007 11:11:26	Also, I was using Spider climb a lot to get out of reach. By the time you hit 7th level, you have more spells then you know what to do with. I put all my beguiler spells on an excel spreadsheet by level with check-off boxes for my number per level. It has been the best thing I have ever done!
#333 lotofsnow Jul 30, 2007 12:22:06	I put all my beguiler spells on an excel spreadsheet by level with check-off boxes for my number per level. It has been the best thing I have ever done! That's an idea I toyed with until I found http://www.emass-web.com/, most specifically the Spell sheets under Dynamic Sheets. Could be the coolest thing ever for a spellcaster with a limited list, like Beguiler.
#334 Reyemile Jul 30, 2007 13:16:55	There is a spell missing from the first page in DC boosters: Shadow Trickster, from ToB. +2 DC for illusion spells while in a Shadow Hand stance. Hard to get it without either spending three feats or losing a caster-level with a level of swordsage, but +2 to DC's isn't that bad, particularly when it comes with a 20% miss chance against you and the ability to use your concentration check instead of your weaker saves.
#335 enigmashock Jul 30, 2007 13:20:42	That's an idea I toyed with until I found http://www.emass-web.com/, most specifically the Spell sheets under Dynamic Sheets. Could be the coolest thing ever for a spellcaster with a limited list, like Beguiler. Yeah, I did the same thing with PDFing the standard sheets (actually, my favorite sheets are the older PDF Ebberon sheets) I made them "dynamic" as well, only I was running a trial edition of Adobe Acrobat Pro, or whatever, and when the trial ran out, it locked down all of the sheets I made - wouldn't even allow me to print them. Lame. I have to say, the spell sheets are cool, and very similar to mine . . .but I like mine better. A bit more info, and better descriptions.
#336 nicholas_the_paladin Jul 31, 2007 2:42:27	There is a spell missing from the first page in DC boosters: Shadow Trickster, from ToB. +2 DC for illusion spells while in a Shadow Hand stance. Hard to get it without either spending three feats or losing a caster-level with a level of swordsage, but +2 to DC's isn't that bad, particularly when it comes with a 20% miss chance against you and the ability to use your concentration check instead of your weaker saves. I think this *feat* was already discussed on this thread. The feeling was that a +2DC increase for illusions wasn't enough for loosing the casterlevel....at least that was my feeling after the discussion. You get +1 DC by taking spellfocus and you don't need to loose that casterlevel.
#337 pauln6 Aug 05, 2007 3:15:34	I'm keen on converting my sorcerer/shadowcaster/noctumancer to a beguiler instead of a sorcerer since my focus was on similar sorcerer spells. However, I'm astounded at the differences between the two classes. The beguiler seems to ride roughshod over established principles for spontaneous casters AND has a massive skill list AND gets a huge number of skill points AND gets various cool class abilities ANDgets better weapons AND gets better hit points. The class is great but I can't see how it would work logically. How can the beguiler find time to learn as many skills as a rogue and 20 times the spells of a sorcerer who doesn't spend so much time on learning skills. I'd be inclined to reduce skill points to 4/ level and restrict the number of spells known but I'm not sure the best way to do it. Options I'm considering are: Spells known 7 + number of spells known from Sorcerer list Twice number of spells known from Sorcerer list Twice number of spells known from Sorcerer list plus number of spells equal to intelligence bonus. This means they still get a wider range of spells (and at higher levels they will gain access to every spell on their list immediately) but it seems fairer on sorcerers and bards i.e. giving beguilers 9 1st level spells to choose from at level 1 compared to 2 for a sorcerer. Does anybody else think that the class needs tweaking?
#338 dead_radish Aug 05, 2007 10:28:08	This means they still get a wider range of spells (and at higher levels they will gain access to every spell on their list immediately) but it seems fairer on sorcerers and bards i.e. giving beguilers 9 1st level spells to choose from at level 1 compared to 2 for a sorcerer. Does anybody else think that the class needs tweaking? The sorcerer can pick from every single sorc/wiz spell in any book ever published, any dragon magazine, and any third party sourcebook allowed. The Beguiler has a list of spells. I think it's pretty balanced. If you're looking for a particular subset, and beguiler fits that, you're set. The instant you want to have access to just one evocation spell.... So sorry Beguiler! (Shadowcraft mage not included)
#339 sartas Aug 05, 2007 12:07:24	Anyone try mixing Beguiler and Psion:telepath in a build? It seems that they might compliment each other, making the character appear to be simply a silver tongue'd arcanist type individual, not necessarily a person who reads thoughts.
#340 pauln6 Aug 05, 2007 15:26:52	The sorcerer can pick from every single sorc/wiz spell in any book ever published, any dragon magazine, and any third party sourcebook allowed. The Beguiler has a list of spells. Hmm but if PHBII is the only supplement you have, the sorcerer spell list isn't much longer than the Beguiler's low level lists plus none of the other classes with limited spell lists (like assassins) get to cast every spells on much smaller lists. While sorcerers can be more versatile spell-wise overall, that only applies once they know more spells - it doesn't help them at say levels 1-5, and that's before you take account the skills, skill points, weapons, and class abilities that the Beguiler gains. Nor does it deal with the problem of logic... unless Beguilers are intended to start play much older than wizards, when do they find time to learn all these skills and spells? I still think that at lower levels the class definitely needs some tweaking.
#341 enigmashock Aug 05, 2007 16:57:50	Hmm but if PHBII is the only supplement you have, the sorcerer spell list isn't much longer than the Beguiler's low level lists plus none of the other classes with limited spell lists (like assassins) get to cast every spells on much smaller lists. While sorcerers can be more versatile spell-wise overall, that only applies once they know more spells - it doesn't help them at say levels 1-5, and that's before you take account the skills, skill points, weapons, and class abilities that the Beguiler gains. Nor does it deal with the problem of logic... unless Beguilers are intended to start play much older than wizards, when do they find time to learn all these skills and spells? I still think that at lower levels the class definitely needs some tweaking. I would say that the Sorcerer's spell list has far more versatility than the Beguiler, which is pretty confined to mind warping stuff. Undead are the biggest bane of my beguiler so far, but anything with a heartbeat wished they never met me. Also, I took spiked chain as a feat, so I have resorted to some melee, from time to time. I also recommend a high UMD, which covers all your other bases. I am acting as a rogue for my party and in the beginning, I put a lot into Hide, DD, Open Lock, Move Silent, Concentrate, Bluff, etc - but now that I am 8th level, and I can toss spells left and right, I use invisibility, knock and DSD pretty frequently, and have put more skills into DD, UMD, and the like.
#342 pauln6 Aug 06, 2007 6:48:16	I would say that the Sorcerer's spell list has far more versatility than the Beguiler, which is pretty confined to mind warping stuff. Undead are the biggest bane of my beguiler so far, but anything with a heartbeat wished they never met me. Hmm yes it is obvious that Beguilers will be vulnerable to attacks by undead or constructs and (my own view about excessive skill points notwithstanding) I do think that the class is balanced overall. However, I think that at lower levels there is a problem. Giving them unlimited access to 15 spells at level 1 is unbalancing and unfair (on sorcerers in particular). After all, with only 2 spells to choose from, fewer hit points and more limited weapons, the average sorcerer is going to be vulnerable to undead and constructs and a lot more besides! Nobody has made a convincing case for immediate unlimited Beguiler spell access even if it might be justifiable at higher levels when restricted spell lists matter more. I'm far from convinced that the loss of a familiar makes up the defecit but in any event, my character bought a dark cat familar with the Shadow Familar feat as a noctumancer. I think I will go with 7 initial spells known (equal to the number of starting 0-level spells) plus a number equal to sorcerer known spells up to the maximum number of spells on the beguiler list. It gives them 8 spells of each level to choose from their list whenever they gain a new spell level and results in a maximum of 12 spells known at higher levels (compared to sorcerers' paltry 5) plus any extras from advanced learning. I think this seems fairer and more balanced. The character build I'm aiming for is far from optimised, having more to do with the character's history as she was played and the rules evolved around her. The final build will probably end up being: Rog2, Beg3, Shc4, Noct9, Swash2 I've sacrificed most beguiler class abilities to gain levels in shadowcasting, which sucks because I rather like them, and I realise that technically she shouldn't qualify for noctumancer as she can't cast 2nd level beguiler spells. We got around this by a home campaign feat called Sentinel's Apprentice (since she was taught sorcery by the magical glove in the old Sentinel module) which was designed retrospectively along the lines of Precocious Apprenitce to grant zero second level spells at level 1 and knowledge of the Knock spell. It was a total fudge to qualify for the prestige class, which is perhaps why I worry abut beguiler being too good!
#343 Malicea Aug 06, 2007 9:23:51	Is it possible for Beguilers to activate a Runestaff with the Use Magic Device skill? If the skill is used to emulate a wizard or sorcerer spell list (Wiz1 or Sor1), can a Beguiler arcane spell slot then be used to cast out of the Runestaff? As a comparison, can a BegX/Wiz1 activate a Runestaff to cast a spell that is only on the Wiz spell list, using his Beguiler spell slots? The Runestaff description in the MiC does not expressly state that the arcane spell slot must be from the class whose spell list contains the spell to be cast.
#344 friendlyfrog Aug 06, 2007 9:45:19	There haven't been any official word on can some one UMD a runestaff, but it does seem to work. You just emulate a spell list, and use Beguiler spells to cast a spell from the staff. The same should work with a Wizard/Beguiler, though I can see a DM having some trouble with it and banning it.
#345 feeb Aug 06, 2007 11:41:02	Does anybody else think that the class needs tweaking? No, not all all. The shadow caster, even with Mouseferatu's errata/tweaks is still mechanically inferior to the Sorcerer and Wizard. Noctumancer is a good anti-caster caster PrC, but has very little in common with the beguiler class (which is essentially all battlefield control.) The beguiler is near perfect "as is." It fills a specific set of party roles (battlefield control, skill monkey, trap finder, party face) very very well, but is also tightly constrained to those roles, and as such is on par with the Sorcerer's "directed" versatility (Summing v Battle field control v Blaster, etc). The problem isn't that the Beguiler is "too good," rather the problem is that the shadow caster, while extremely flavorful, is not good enough. Nor does it deal with the problem of logic... unless Beguilers are intended to start play much older than wizards, when do they find time to learn all these skills and spells? I still think that at lower levels the class definitely needs some tweaking. Wizards have faster spell progression, virtually unlimited spells known, Summon familiar, Scribe Scroll and the option for specialization at level 1. The trade off is fewer skill points per level (but since Wizards are SAD, and most focus on Int fairly heavily, it's not like they are missing out on skill points.) Further, the Beguiler is geared towards being a trap finder, that's two skills (search and disable device) right there, ignoring Open Lock, Listen and Move Silently. The Beguiler's spell list is less than a 1/10th that of the wizard, where are you getting this "when do they find time to learn all these spells?" nonsense from? I find the idea that a beguiler, even at low levels, is "overpowered" when compared to a wizard to be completely without merit, as I've illustrated above.
#346 pauln6 Aug 06, 2007 18:50:49	No, not all all. The shadow caster, even with Mouseferatu's errata/tweaks is still mechanically inferior to the Sorcerer and Wizard. Noctumancer is a good anti-caster caster PrC, but has very little in common with the beguiler class (which is essentially all battlefield control.) The problem isn't that the Beguiler is "too good," rather the problem is that the shadow caster, while extremely flavorful, is not good enough. Wizards have faster spell progression, virtually unlimited spells known, Summon familiar, Scribe Scroll and the option for specialization at level 1. The trade off is fewer skill points per level (but since Wizards are SAD, and most focus on Int fairly heavily, it's not like they are missing out on skill points.) Further, the Beguiler is geared towards being a trap finder, that's two skills (search and disable device) right there, ignoring Open Lock, Listen and Move Silently. The Beguiler's spell list is less than a 1/10th that of the wizard, where are you getting this "when do they find time to learn all these spells?" nonsense from? I find the idea that a beguiler, even at low levels, is "overpowered" when compared to a wizard to be completely without merit, as I've illustrated above. Ah but the game has in-built restrictions for wizards. It costs money and takes time to put spells in a spell book, spell books are too flaming heavy to lug around everywhere (a problem at low levels) and wizards start the game as older than average to take account of all that studying. They are not spontaneous casters and it costs gold and xp to scribe scrolls. None of my wizards ever started with more than half a dozen spells in their books. But I don't really compare beguilers to wizards as the casting is very different. I compare them more to Bards and sorcerers and I still can't see that having a larger list to choose from really balances a sorcerer with access to 2 level 1 spells and a familar with a beguiler with access to 15 spells, better weapons, better armour, better hit points, and more skills. As for shadowcasters, I really wanted was a nice simple shadowmage prestige class to allow me to continue playing my 2e shadow mage chaneller (pretty much an illusionist with a bit of flavour). The shadowcaster is a nice class and an example where 2 skill points with a wider range of class skills can still be effective if you have high intelligence but the spell choices are restrictive (even with tweaks) compared to what I used to have and my caster levels don't stack. This is why I wanted a sorcerer / shadowcaster / noctumancer build. The only spells I used to have that I'll have to give up as a beguiler are locate object and levitate - I wasn't really a flash bang wallop sorcerer to start with so beguiler spells are fine with me! I am going to choose Shadow Conjuration as my advanced learning but sadly I only get one pop as I can't afford to lose shadowcaster levels and take a 40% hit on xp if I go up to 7th level as a beguiler. Bummer as I fancied shadow evocation and greater heroism too. Nevertheless, a rod of shadowblending should help. I'd love the shadowcraft mage's class ability - do you think a wish could secure it or is one custom feat cheating enough?
#347 Omen_of_Peace Aug 06, 2007 19:09:39	Rog2, Beg3, Shc4, Noct9, Swash2 Don't worry, this build won't be too good. To be honest, at level 1, a Beguiler is clearly more powerful than a wizard or a sorcerer, due to higher HPs, armored casting and lots of spell known. But that doesn't say much, and the advantages wane quickly.
#348 pauln6 Aug 07, 2007 4:00:12	Don't worry, this build won't be too good. To be honest, at level 1, a Beguiler is clearly more powerful than a wizard or a sorcerer, due to higher HPs, armored casting and lots of spell known. But that doesn't say much, and the advantages wane quickly. Yes - I think that's probably an analysis I agree with on all counts. Converting a second edition shadow mage to third edition euivalent was awful. Even now the only comparable prestige class is limited to gnomes grumble grumble. I'm not sure why they took the decision to deliberately avoid a basic shadow mage wizard build - they did Wild Mages and I always hated those! What are people's views on Arcane Disciple to expand Beguiler spells known? While it is based on an Eberron deity, I rather fancy the Shadow Domain (it would give me access to my beloved shadow magic and free up my advanced learning to take Heroism) but in terms of optimisation there might be better ones to choose. My pc was cursed and tainted by exposure to blackflame, so I can easily justify taking the feat to myself if nobody else! Do people think that the other feats are more worthwhile or is there some mileage is sneaking in access to a few alteration or evocation spells?
#349 feeb Aug 07, 2007 11:44:24	Ah but the game has in-built restrictions for wizards. It costs money and takes time to put spells in a spell book, spell books are too flaming heavy to lug around everywhere (a problem at low levels) and wizards start the game as older than average to take account of all that studying. They are not spontaneous casters and it costs gold and xp to scribe scrolls. None of my wizards ever started with more than half a dozen spells in their books. I realize that you agree that the sorcerer or bard is a more apt comparison for to the beguiler, but there are few things here that are not consistent with RAW. The reason I am drawing this out is that I strongly feel your representation of the wizard is extremely underpowered, and thus unfairly skews the results towards the beguiler. I apologize for belaboring the point. RAW, wizards start with all 0-level spells and three 1st level spells + an number of spells equal to their Int mod. This generally works out to be 23 to 25 spells (there are 19 o-level spells in the PHB, most wizards have between a 14 and 16 INT at first level.) This also works out to be 23 - 25 pages of their spell book already filled in when the character starts. RAW, spells in a wizard's spell book at first level are free, there is no cost associated for those spells. Further, the two additonal spells per level a Wizard gets from leveling up are also free, RAW there is no cost for those spells. A blank spell book costs 15gp, RAW, and contains 100 pages. At first level most wizards have used ~25 of those pages. A spell book weights only 3lbs. At fifth level, a wizard should know a minimum of 30 spells, which should occupy about 40 pages of the wizard's spell book. RAW, there is no cost for ANY for scribing any of these spells into a spell book. The costs come from scribing spells above and beyond the two FREE spells per level a Wizard learns. If you are gaining level appropriate wealth, as specified in the Wealth by Level chart in the DMG, scribing additional spells becomes a moot point from level 5 on. A first level scroll, scribed at caster level 1, costs a wizard 37g and 1xp. Scroll costs are trivial. By third level, a wizard can easily have 20+ scrolls and still have plenty of wealth left over for other enhancements. You can choose to start at the minimum age for your race and class. For a human wizard, this is 17. Clearly, your games incorporate a fair amount of house rules to get at the end result you describe.
#350 pauln6 Aug 07, 2007 12:56:38	I realize that you agree that the sorcerer or bard is a more apt comparison for to the beguiler, but there are few things here that are not consistent with RAW. The reason I am drawing this out is that I strongly feel your representation of the wizard is extremely underpowered, and thus unfairly skews the results towards the beguiler. I apologize for belaboring the point. RAW, wizards start with all 0-level spells and three 1st level spells + an number of spells equal to their Int mod. This generally works out to be 23 to 25 spells (there are 19 o-level spells in the PHB, most wizards have between a 14 and 16 INT at first level.) This also works out to be 23 - 25 pages of their spell book already filled in when the character starts. RAW, spells in a wizard's spell book at first level are free, there is no cost associated for those spells. Further, the two additonal spells per level a Wizard gets from leveling up are also free, RAW there is no cost for those spells. A blank spell book costs 15gp, RAW, and contains 100 pages. At first level most wizards have used ~25 of those pages. A spell book weights only 3lbs. At fifth level, a wizard should know a minimum of 30 spells, which should occupy about 40 pages of the wizard's spell book. RAW, there is no cost for ANY for scribing any of these spells into a spell book. The costs come from scribing spells above and beyond the two FREE spells per level a Wizard learns. If you are gaining level appropriate wealth, as specified in the Wealth by Level chart in the DMG, scribing additional spells becomes a moot point from level 5 on. A first level scroll, scribed at caster level 1, costs a wizard 37g and 1xp. Scroll costs are trivial. By third level, a wizard can easily have 20+ scrolls and still have plenty of wealth left over for other enhancements. You can choose to start at the minimum age for your race and class. For a human wizard, this is 17. Clearly, your games incorporate a fair amount of house rules to get at the end result you describe. Lol - no that's ok - and I concede that wizards do not seem to fare as badly as sorcerers. I started playing 1e and some of our long standing characters have had to change as the rules changed around them. If Harry Potter can graduate at 16 knowing 4th level spells it would be churlish of me to hark back to the golden age of wizardry being equivalent to a degree with graduation in their twenties :D For example don't get me started on the illogic of the classic retired elderly wizard losing experience points while he spends his dotage in research and item creation for foolhardy adventurers. Some of the old flavour gave way to number crunching and game mechanics but I wouldn't be so anally retentive if it wasn't for the fact that I want to convert my pc and the beguiler just seems a bit too good to be true! I think a lot of the weaknesses are in the fine print - a lot of spells that are all or nothing and a very narrow focus overall. I wish they'd produced a proper shadow mage class along similar lines though...
#351 feeb Aug 07, 2007 14:13:12	Lol - no that's ok - and I concede that wizards do not seem to fare as badly as sorcerers. I started playing 1e and some of our long standing characters have had to change as the rules changed around them. If Harry Potter can graduate at 16 knowing 4th level spells it would be churlish of me to hark back to the golden age of wizardry being equivalent to a degree with graduation in their twenties :D For example don't get me started on the illogic of the classic retired elderly wizard losing experience points while he spends his dotage in research and item creation for foolhardy adventurers. Some of the old flavour gave way to number crunching and game mechanics but I wouldn't be so anally retentive if it wasn't for the fact that I want to convert my pc and the beguiler just seems a bit too good to be true! I think a lot of the weaknesses are in the fine print - a lot of spells that are all or nothing and a very narrow focus overall. I wish they'd produced a proper shadow mage class along similar lines though... No worries, I just get hung up on some minor quibble or something sometimes. In regards to the all or nothing focus, I've always felt that's why beguiler 20 wins out in a lot of situations, bypassing SR is pretty strong. This is a complete deviation from the build you've posted, but have you considered some levels in Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone?)
#352 pauln6 Aug 07, 2007 18:11:47	No worries, I just get hung up on some minor quibble or something sometimes. In regards to the all or nothing focus, I've always felt that's why beguiler 20 wins out in a lot of situations, bypassing SR is pretty strong. This is a complete deviation from the build you've posted, but have you considered some levels in Shadowcraft Mage (from Races of Stone?) Ok, let me know if I'm boring you but I'd be interested in any thoughts on how to improve the build without trashing the character history and concept: The character is a 2e human character played as a level 1-3 thief and then swapped to a wizard starting from level 0. When spells and magic came out, she was converted to a shadow mage channeller. The logic behind the conversion to shadow mage was that, while playing Baltron's Beacon, the character was infected by Blackflame. When converted to 3e I took 2 levels of rogue for starters and therefore and in the absence of anything resembling a shadow mage, I went for sorcerer to reflect the spontaneous casting of the channeller. After getting cheesed off that a shadow mage prestige class was conspicuously absent in 3e, I made up my own temporarily, but when the Tome of Magic came out, I thought I should adopt the official version instead. I was a bit miffed that shadowcasting was a whole different system of casting that wouldn't stack or mesh with sorcery so I went for a noctumancer build to try and retain some of the spells that the character had been using for years while taking on the shadowy stuff. It left me with a sloppy build and a rather underpowered spellcaster Having stumbled across the Precocious Apprentice Feat, I persuaded my DM to let me tweak it to a custom feat (Sentinel's Apprentice) to allow me access to one 2nd level spell at level 1 so that I could qualify for noctumancer early, which helped reduce suckiness marginally. The Beguiler class seems to overcome one problem I encountered as a sorcerer, which was basically that my spell choices were too limited. Once I'd taken spells like knock, and locate object, which I'd been using for years since nobody else in the group had anything similar, I had no room left for decent offensive spells. A wider spell choice alleviates that problem and while the Beguiler spells are very focused, the shadowcaster mysteries do add in a few spells from other schools to round out the spell range. The downside is that in taking levels of noctumancer I'm sacrificing some pretty cool Beguiler class abilities, decent skill points, and some hit points. To make matters worse, my DM decided that the Blackflame infection should take the form of taint. When I'm in the thrall of the flames, my Favoured Mystery - Black Fire - inflicts half its damage as Vile Damage and when severely tainted I can spread the blackflame infection and dominate the infected - not sure if that's bad or good, but he seems to think it's good. As a supernatural ability it ignores spell resistance but it is Reflex negates so it is still all or nothing. To get back on track, while I'd love to go for shadowcraft mage or shadowcrafter, starting as a non-spellcaster means I've used up 2 feats already, a third one for the Leadership feat, to allow me to populate the Keep of Adlerweg with troops, and a fourth one, Shadow Familar, to let me keep my cat if I go with Beguiler. I'm trying to come up with the best legal build that allows me to reflect the character's history but this makes it impossible to qualify for the prestige classes until I'm level 15 - plus there's the whole 'I'm not a gnome' problem for shadowcraft mage. If I forget about aiming for Shadowcrafter (Spell Focus (Illusion)) and spend my next feat on Arcane Disciple (Shadow), using the Blackflame infection as a quasi-legal excuse (there is the Cult of the Blackflame knocking around the Hool Marshes after all), this gives me access to some nice shadow-themed spells in one hit, including the indispensible shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, and frees up my advanced learning for another spell (I fancied either Heroism or Phantasmal Killer since I should be high enough level to cast 4th level spells at that stage). I wanted levels in Swashbuckler to get weapon finesse as a bonus feat to qualify for the Graceful Edge feat from Dungeon (weapon finesse applied to a martial weapon) but also to try and squeeze out 3 attacks per round at level 20 (we use the averaged BAB and saving throw rules). The downside then is that I have too many base classes and I'm sacrificing spell levels. The upside is that I can increase my attack rolls quite substantially. I'm soooo confused.
#353 thawmus Aug 08, 2007 11:06:26	I think this *feat* was already discussed on this thread. The feeling was that a +2DC increase for illusions wasn't enough for loosing the casterlevel....at least that was my feeling after the discussion. You get +1 DC by taking spellfocus and you don't need to loose that casterlevel. We discussed it, but I don't think you understood that you don't have to sacrifice a caster level for it. You can take Martial Study to get you a Shadow Hand maneuver, such as Child of Shadow. Then take Martial Stance to pick up something useful (Dance of the Spider is nice, it's permanent Spider Climb, but you can have a free hand for casting), then Shadow Trickster. Thus, you get +2 DC to your illusions spells all the time, since you can stay in your stance forever.
#354 dead_radish Aug 08, 2007 11:17:08	We discussed it, but I don't think you understood that you don't have to sacrifice a caster level for it. You can take Martial Study to get you a Shadow Hand maneuver, such as Child of Shadow. Then take Martial Stance to pick up something useful (Dance of the Spider is nice, it's permanent Spider Climb, but you can have a free hand for casting), then Shadow Trickster. Thus, you get +2 DC to your illusions spells all the time, since you can stay in your stance forever. Now you've spent 2 feats to get +2 DC, and a stance. If you're going to be in combat, that's useful, but.... What I prefer is to cheese it a bit more. You buy a vest of Shadow Hand (Cloak of Deception). That grants you improved invisibility for your turn. It costs 3k. Or Shadow Jaunt, which is a 50' TP. THEN you take Martial Stance (Dance of the Spider) or Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for +2d6 sneak. Now you've spent 3k and a feat for +2 dc, Improved Inv 1/combat and a stance that's useful. That's worth it.
#355 arokh Aug 09, 2007 2:01:54	Hi, I play a Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler in our new Campaign and can reduce my LA. I did not match the prereqs for the Earth Sense aso feats. Now I have two possibities of which I`d like to choose one. At first i shuold say that I will take the Shadowcraft Mage at 9th. 1st possibilty: 1 Beg (Spell Focus Illu) 2 Beg 3 Beg (Heighten Spell) 4 Beg 5 Beg 6 Beg (Greater Spell Focus Illu) 7 Shadowcrafter 8 Beg 9 Shadowcraft Mage (Rapid Metamagic) 10 " 11 " 12 " 13 " 14-20 Shadowcrafter 2nd possibilty 1 Beg (Spell Focus Illu) 2 Beg 3 Beg (Heighten Spell) 4 Beg 5 Beg 6 MindBender (Mindsight) 7 Beg 8 Beg 9 Shadowcraft Mage (Rapid Metamagic) 10 " 10 " 11 " 12 " 13 " 14 - 20 I don`t know Which variant do you think would be better? I`ve never played 3rd higher than level nine, so i don`t know exactly what will be "effective" on higher levels. Thanks
#356 zorachus Aug 12, 2007 10:24:34	How about... Human (in Eberron) Beguiler 3 / Monk 2 / Erudite 3 / Mindbender 1 / Cerebremancer 10 / Wild Mage 1 1 - Beguiler 1 2 - Beguiler 2 3 - Erudite 1 (select Spell to Power variant) 4 - Erudite 2 5 - Monk 1 (select Monastic Training: Cerebremancer) 6 - Monk 2 7 - Erudite 3 8 - Beguiler 3 9 - Mindbender 1 10 to 19 - Cerebremancer 1-10 20 - Wild Mage 1 Take Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) by 3rd level. This will allow you to qualify (provided you have the skills) for Mindbender after 5th. This build, of course, blends really well with the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona. You get your 10 levels of Cerebremancer and 2 of Monk, which takes you 1 past the necessary 11 for Greater Flurry. You will also have the Unarmed Strike of a 12th level Monk, which is easy enough to boost with items for level (and the Greater Mighty Wallop for size, which you could learn via Spell to Power). The only issue w/ Tashalatora is the requirement of 5 Autohypnosis ranks. This could be solved by either choosing normal Psion, by taking it cross-class until after 10th level, or by any number of other means. I'd rather have Spell to Power, so I did it this way. Of course, the Monk AC Bonus goes really well with Inertial Armor. If you have at least a 14 Wis, you could also consider Arcane Disciple (Competition Domain), so you can get Divine Power, and a +19 BAB @ 20th level when that spell is active. That's actually somewhat of a key point, since your BAB is otherwise horrid. Of course, Spell to Power can also get you Wraithstrike, which you can afford to do quite a bit. Yes, I know that Wild Mage requires 2 feats, one of which is pretty craptastic, but the Reflex primary leads to, at 20th: Fortitude +8 Reflex +10 (w/ Evasion) Will +16 CL 19 Beguiler (with level 15 selection) ML 17 Erudite (with level 13 selection) ...and of course, the Monk stuff. Here is what I would probably do with feats: Human Bonus - Able Learner 1 - Kung Fu Genius 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler) 6 - Arcane Disciple - Competition Domain 9 - Quicken Spell 12 - Tashalatora 15 - Magical Aptitude 18 - Practiced Manifester (Erudite) Also, I'm sure someone's already mentioned it, but in regular Beguiler builds, losing a CL for a level of Sand Shaper adds a lot of spells to one's list.
#357 nicholas_the_paladin Aug 13, 2007 2:22:49	Now you've spent 2 feats to get +2 DC, and a stance. If you're going to be in combat, that's useful, but.... I think that's 3 feats: - martial maneuver - martial stance - shadow trickster What I prefer is to cheese it a bit more. You buy a vest of Shadow Hand (Cloak of Deception). It costs 3k. Or Shadow Jaunt, which is a 50' TP. Shadow Jaunt is my favorite, it will give you something that you can't already do by spells. THEN you take Martial Stance (Dance of the Spider) or Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for +2d6 sneak. Now you've spent 3k and a feat for +2 dc, Improved Inv 1/combat and a stance that's useful. That's worth it. Isn't that 3k, 2 feats (martial stance and shadow trickster) to get +2 DC (and a maneuver and stance)?
#358 dead_radish Aug 13, 2007 11:48:36	I use new math. 1+1=1 for certain values of 1. I was forgetting that Shadow Trickster was a feat and not a class feature.
#359 zombiegleemax Aug 15, 2007 16:49:28	Hey all, great info and thanks for taking the time to put this together. I've learned a lot about the Beguiler (one of my favorite classes ever) just from this thread. One thing I would like to know is tactical uses of spells under certain circumstances. In what ways have those of you who've been playing a Beguiler found that they are used the best? Also, I came across the feat in Complete Mage called, Metamagic School Focus. It's supposed to reduce the cost of a metamagic feat by 1 level. What I was wondering is if that would work with Heighten Spell. So you could essentially prepare a spell in a slot level below the heightened level. (ex. a spell Heightened to level 9 in a level 8 spot). Thanks!
#360 mikura Aug 15, 2007 20:12:13	Hey all, great info and thanks for taking the time to put this together. I've learned a lot about the Beguiler (one of my favorite classes ever) just from this thread. One thing I would like to know is tactical uses of spells under certain circumstances. In what ways have those of you who've been playing a Beguiler found that they are used the best? I have a 4th level Beguiler in an Eberron campaign, and so far (apart from jumping into the fight when I can) I try to keep the enemies off balance (daze, sleep etc. and also Distract Assailant as my Advanced Learning) since we have three people who can do sneak attack damage. I also use misdirection when I can so we can set up ambushes (sending a minor image running in one direction while everyone else sneaks in behind). As an elf I sit watch after meditating and have used the rouse spell a few times so far; I think its one of the more overlooked spells on the list. On another point; given the nature of Sorcerer's (spontaneous rather than learned magic) I've been frustrated by the lack of fighting ability. If I don't have to study spells why can't I spend time learning to fight? I think that option should be relfected in the class. That's a big reason why I like Beguiler so much.
#361 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2007 17:32:37	It didn't take me long after looking at the beguiler to realize it needs to deal damage, but this would be risky in melee. I do not believe in taking the supporting role and letting fighters to step in after you stupefy someone. A hero should be able to handle themselves. It didn't take long to rule out Sorcerer because of that pesky arcane spell failure chance. I considered Warmage first because both can cast in armor. I think, however, that I do prefer the Warlock because you can blast away all day if you feel like it, whereas a Warmage will run out of spells. When I found this blog I went back to the books to look at prestige classes and remembered once considering the Eldritch Theurge. When I got back online, there it was!! I would really like someone to point out why such a class combination would be folly, because if there is a hitch I don't know about I can avoid looking foolish at the game table when I try this. Any takers?
#362 dead_radish Aug 17, 2007 9:40:27	It didn't take me long after looking at the beguiler to realize it needs to deal damage.....Eldritch Theurge. It would work, generally. You've got some MAD going on, as you need Int, Dex, and Cha. You aren't going to be able to blow people up - your eldritch blast is going to be 2d6 or 3d6 damage most of the time. I would look at your original contention though - DnD isn't a solo game. Doing damage isn't required, and is often sub-optimal. If you really want to be able to blast, ET isn't bad - you can deliver touch spells via your blast, so you're getting some damage. But really, it's not a great mix. You're better off going with full casting progression with a PrC. And odd extra option, if you really want the blasty, is to do beguiler 4/Warmage 1/Ultimate Magus 10 (Hear me out). It'll take a few feats, though. You need Practiced spellcaster (warmage) at level 3 or 6. You need Arcane Preparation at level 1,3 or 6. That makes Beguiler your "Prepared" class and Warmage your alternate. Then do the Practiced Caster route, and you'll only lose 2 beguiler levels overall. But you're still behind, because both of those classes have sorc. progressions. If you're really focused on doing damage, I'd find out what aspects of the Beguiler appeal to you, and then try to add them to a sorc, rather than the other way around.
#363 nicholas_the_paladin Aug 23, 2007 1:32:26	It didn't take me long after looking at the beguiler to realize it needs to deal damage, but this would be risky in melee. I do not believe in taking the supporting role and letting fighters to step in after you stupefy someone. A hero should be able to handle themselves. It didn't take long to rule out Sorcerer because of that pesky arcane spell failure chance. I considered Warmage first because both can cast in armor. I think, however, that I do prefer the Warlock because you can blast away all day if you feel like it, whereas a Warmage will run out of spells. When I found this blog I went back to the books to look at prestige classes and remembered once considering the Eldritch Theurge. When I got back online, there it was!! I would really like someone to point out why such a class combination would be folly, because if there is a hitch I don't know about I can avoid looking foolish at the game table when I try this. Any takers? If you *need* to do damage, its much easier to use UMD or get a magical item that you can use without UMD. Like "gloves of the starry sky" (rainment of the for, MIC, 1100gp). It let's you swap 1st level spells for a 'magic missle ' at *your caster level* . Or 'Goggles of the golden sun', which let's you cast Fireball for a 3rd level slot (4000 gp). Both items have some more benefits, but are useable 3 times a day.
#364 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2007 15:21:00	Thanks, you gave me some things to ponder. If I would rather blast those who get in my way than be sneaky, then why am I considering the beguiler in the first place? And is there any kind of guide in here to the abbreviations you guys use? UMD? AMD? The longer I use the site the more I will learn.
#365 Richmud Aug 28, 2007 20:10:25	UMD? UMD is the TLA (three letter acronym) for the skill use magic device
#366 linkrulesx10 Sep 09, 2007 22:28:35	I would like to propose a simple build (Not really a build) that I am currently using: Alignment: non-good. Race: any. Classes: Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler +X. Now I really like this build sure it has its issues, my character is a lawful neutral beguilar. (Yes lawful neutral, and yes he is still fun) and he has taken the investigate feat. (Found in Ebberon DM doesn't rule that feat as campaign specific and my charecter is a detective.) As well as the Shadow weave user feat. Essentially here are the pro's and cons: Pro's Will grant access to mind sight and the three very useful shadow adept feats. Delays advanced learning by 2 levels, one level would be optimal but two won't hurt any one will it? Really good at manipulation due to they can talk silently to almost anyone, detect peoples presence and most people cannot detect their magic. Charm a bunch of people wizard, comes along detect magic and reveals nothing. Very Simple build, not very complicated, no iffy reading of rules and you gain all the build perks perks by level 7 and then progress as a beguilar from there. The power of these abilities do not diminish over time and are very hard to duplicate via other ruotes. Con's: Requires you to take Shadow weave user (Great feat but harsh pre reqs) Also uses the feat mind sight, good feat. Skill intensive requires 8 ranks in arcana and spell craft as well as 4 in intimidate, all the other skills would probably have been picked up anyway. Requires 2 levels in classes that are not beguilar hindering special ability gain So what do people think?
#367 nicholas_the_paladin Sep 13, 2007 5:38:11	Hi Link, Well what is there to say? these are both very usefull PrC's, that already have been mentioned as worth the prereq's and the delay in beguiler -abilities. I guess it's just a matter of taste: are you willing to further delay the Beguiler abilities for 'another' PrC. the main reason that people take a PrC, is beacuse it gives acces to a 4th level 'advanced learning' slot in stead of a 3rd level. Another PrC-level is just what it is; another PrC level. Personally, I would just choose *one* PrC and keep continuing the Beguiler path.
#368 linkrulesx10 Sep 13, 2007 6:59:10	I have found the fact that trueseeing, see invisibility, detect magic spells and the like completly own a charecter trying to be sneaky. So which is why I highly value the shadow adept feats. I also like the idea of telepathy and sensing people with my mind and would make manipulating people by having private conversations so much more fun. So I cannot really choose between them so I decided to take both, also Mindsight also kinda stops me from getting snuck up upon, I sneak up on people not the other way around... So I am willing to delay the beguilar abilities by 2 levels for these abilities, to be honest the hardest cost on my charecter is the skill point cost. (I like my skill points.) but It isnt to bad.
#369 skarlett_spyder Sep 13, 2007 8:34:57	I have found the fact that trueseeing, see invisibility, detect magic spells and the like completly own a charecter trying to be sneaky. Umm...yeah. There's a difference between being sneaky and applying sneaky magic. magic is supposed to enhance your natural sneakiness, not replace it. Which is why the beguiler is so great. The level in mindbender with the telepathy feat from LoM is golden (I'm playing a changeling beguiler 13/mindbender 1 with this setup, and it's awesome), but the level in Shadow Adept is really not needed IMHO.
#370 whitishknight Sep 19, 2007 15:00:00	has the Obtain Familiar feat been mentioned? seems rather basic, but it's very useful. it allows access to the Birthright feats from Dragon 311 and 325, which add spells to your spell list. you could take the stitched-flesh familiar feat and then apply the spell-stitched template to it, granting it spells (Conjuration, Necromancy, Evocation) that you don't have access to. and you could pass yourself off as a sorcerer. hmm, i wonder if any DM would let you take the Obtain Familiar feat and then substitute it with the Metamagic Specialist class feature of the Sorcerer in PHII? now for a question... are there any Perform related abilities that could help a Beguiler? I was really sad when I noticed the class doesn't have Perform as a class skill, so I made an able-learner clown and I was wondering what Perform options are there.
#371 frosthammer Sep 19, 2007 20:40:44	Actually, how DOES a beguiler hide from someone who has Detect Magic or Arcane Sight? I've got Invisibility going, and I'm wearing magic items. Does Detect Magic allow me to pinpoint invisible enemies?
#372 Kurama_Youko Sep 19, 2007 20:57:00	You can't pin point a invisible person with detect magic I believe so while you could deduce that someone or something is within a certain area, they would still have total concealment from you, sense you can't discern what/who they are. You could tell of course what school/sub school of magic they are using if you study them long enough. If they move out of range of your detect magic you have to look for them again to I believe
#373 frosthammer Sep 19, 2007 21:55:33	The important thing is, can you cast spells at them? Or does Total Concealing mean no line of effect/sight?
#374 Kurama_Youko Sep 19, 2007 22:07:48	thats a definite no, you do not have line of sight, nor could you target them with any type of attack that requires you to target a individual. Area spells are you friend at this point.
#375 nicholas_the_paladin Sep 20, 2007 10:18:08	Actually, how DOES a beguiler hide from someone who has Detect Magic or Arcane Sight? I've got Invisibility going, and I'm wearing magic items. Does Detect Magic allow me to pinpoint invisible enemies? No it doesn't. There have been sooo many threads (and thus discussions) about this subject already. As I recall, it is considered somewhat of a 'hole' in the rules and an enormous spoiler. The "Detect invis"-spell hasn't been made for nothing. speaking about a real hole in the rules: using 'detect magic' to detroy all illusions.
#376 whitishknight Sep 21, 2007 19:20:11	Spell Thematics from Player's Guide to Faerun is a feat that adds flavor to every spell you may cast, making it more difficult to identify and boosting some of their caster levels. It basically modifies the visual representation of the spell. Can anybody think of any uses for this?
#377 nicholas_the_paladin Sep 24, 2007 2:13:43	Spell Thematics from Player's Guide to Faerun is a feat that adds flavor to every spell you may cast, making it more difficult to identify and boosting some of their caster levels. It basically modifies the visual representation of the spell. Can anybody think of any uses for this? sjeez, the possibilities are endless. The +1 Cl for one spell per spell-level is nice, but won't do the trick. This feat is all about flavour. What flavour do *you* like? (the Shadow-theme?)
#378 whitishknight Sep 24, 2007 3:27:09	Well, Spell Thematics, to me, seems like a weak-Silent Image effect on all your spells, depending on how you look at it. The theme "copies of the caster" would produce something similar to a Mirror Image spell, wouldn't it? Or it'd make your Invisibility spell into a Mislead-type spell, since as you go invisible, the visual would come into being... Or how about the theme "spells appear to originate from the barbarian"? It's late, I've got nothing.
#379 nicholas_the_paladin Sep 24, 2007 7:07:45	Well, Spell Thematics, to me, seems like a weak-Silent Image effect on all your spells, depending on how you look at it. The theme "copies of the caster" would produce something similar to a Mirror Image spell, wouldn't it? Or it'd make your Invisibility spell into a Mislead-type spell, since as you go invisible, the visual would come into being.... very nice, but i think you're stretching the function of the feat a bit. Like I said, I see this spell as pure flavour .... although I like your creative application of it. Or how about the theme "spells appear to originate from the barbarian"? . you stretching it further...and further;) Like i said, I like it. I like that I can use my imagination even more. But the thing is, some DM's already are freaking out over my creative use of Silent image an Minor Image..... this would probably be pushing it.
#380 scarymike23 Oct 24, 2007 15:40:40	Transdimensional Spell from Complete arcane mixed with etherealness (swift, jaunt and regular) is a great combo for the beguiler. Basically, you become ethereal, and then you can cast on subject (because of transdimensional spell), all while gaining your surprise casting bonuses. This is cool because etherealness can't be seen through by blindsight, tremorsense and the like. Thanks goes to jameswilliamogle for pointing this out to me in another thread. Also, I don't know if it was mentioned, but I think Superior invis (spell compendium) is a great choice for the final advanced learning. I'm playing a 19th level beguiler (started at 1st) in Savage tide, and a lot of things can see through invis, thus negating the surprise casting. But superior takes care of that (except true seeing).
#381 jameswilliamogle Oct 24, 2007 15:49:23	Technically, transdimensional spell doesn't really work RAW... just would like to point that out... It effects incorporeal, ethereal, creatures on the plane of shadow, and creatures in extradimensional spaces, but not from ethereal going to the material. Most DMs would probably agree that this was an oversight, though, and that it should effect all co-existant planes.
#382 nicholas_the_paladin Oct 25, 2007 1:49:56	The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Maddness makes you undetectable by blindsense, tremor sense and blind sight.
#383 schizoveen Nov 07, 2007 19:25:03	i missed a feat that grands a +1 CL to enchantments: Complete Mage: Touch of distraction (page 48) Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd-level spells. Benefit: As long as you have an enchantment spell of 3rd level or higher available to cast, you can cloud the mind of a creature within 30 feet as a standard action. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting enchantment spells.
#384 jameswilliamogle Nov 08, 2007 8:47:59	i missed a feat that grands a +1 CL to enchantments: Complete Mage: Touch of distraction (page 48) Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd-level spells. Benefit: As long as you have an enchantment spell of 3rd level or higher available to cast, you can cloud the mind of a creature within 30 feet as a standard action. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting enchantment spells. The problem is that higher CL w/ enchantments typically only grants a longer duration, but most enchantments have a really long duration already. Those that don't are usually buffs, but CL doesn't effect them as much.
#385 mongoosefamiliar Nov 08, 2007 23:40:17	I can see the use of cloaked casting, but does the surprise casting ability actually have a useful application for the beguiler?
#386 castlemike Nov 09, 2007 0:37:09	+0LA Planetouched (Tiefling) if no LA buy down option in your game. Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine since the text says you you get a bonus spell at each level and may learn these spells as normal for your class which I would interpret to mean for a Beguiler as adding them to their standard normal known spells. If that is considered to cheesy, it is Anyspell, Anyspell Greater and Limited Wish which are really desired for giving the PC more spell utility in game and can be picked up normally with Advanced Learning. Anyspell would allow the PC a lot of options with a spell book and a little time in game, little things like casting False Life or Rope Trick and plenty of other spells if you think about it. Anyspell Greater opens up things like Commune, Divination, Fabricate, Heal (Adept version), Polymorph. The Magic in the Blood feat from PGtF is nice for pumping up daily use spellcasting abilities from templates and other heritage feats from once a day each to 3/day saw it mentioned once around page 7 or 8, it would be nice for the Fey Beguiler/Warlock heritage feat build earlier in the thread. If you are not going to be playing at high levels 18+ with level 9 spells going Beguiler/Psion (Standard or Erudite) with the Spells to Power feat variant with the Cerebrancer PRC could be pretty strong in most games with SAD and good class synergies cherry picking a few spells and psion powers to complement the Beguiler class side. Fast Healing 1 for 1 PP, Astral Construct or Energy Missile, Alter Self or Fly, Celerity, Teleport. The Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun will give the Beguiler a chance to do some major damage occassionally if desired.
#387 jameswilliamogle Nov 09, 2007 6:30:00	In its current incarnation, Anyspell requires you to prepare the spell in your domain slot, of which the Beguiler has none. Shadowcraft Mage + Luck domain is the easiest way to get almost universal access to spells from the Beguiler. Letting Magic in the Blood apply to Heritage feats is a very nice idea; I still see a lot of DMs nerf it since it technically isn't racial, still. Spellfire Wielder is totally DM dependent, but sure, it could do a lot.
#388 castlemike Nov 09, 2007 7:03:04	In its current incarnation, Anyspell requires you to prepare the spell in your domain slot, of which the Beguiler has none. Shadowcraft Mage + Luck domain is the easiest way to get almost universal access to spells from the Beguiler. I agree but most games don't get to level 9 spells where Miracle from the Luck domain is a great deal. The Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine: Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your deity's alignment. Benefit: Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. (***That seems pretty clear) If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannont be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class (***that seems pretty clear beguilers, sorcerers and wizards don't partially know spells they either know them or they don't); however you use wisdom (rather than your normal ability for your spellcasting.........).............. Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level. (***that seems pretty clear regarding standard domain spellcasting of the single bonus daily domain spellcasting for each level) Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you must select a different domain... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The feat is in conflict. The last paragraph seems poorly written to explain you get a single bonus domain spell from your Arcane Disciple or Disciples. You may learn these spells as normal for your class, only the Initiate of Mystra gets that same special wording regarding domain spells not on the divine spell list normally in PGtF to my knowledge (If it didn't say that in the text then I would treat them like a cleric learning a non standard domain spells as a bonus spell via a domain but Arcane casters don't "normally" partially learn spells they are all or none casters). So my PC should be able to add them to the known spell list or pick them up with Advanced Learning like a Sorcerer/Wizard Enchantment or Illusion spell since they are known class arcane spells as per the feat description. If the PC can't, by the same logic then the PC can pick up a second domain or even more domains by the text as written and now the PC gets a single extra bonus spell at each level for each domain, so 2 domains would be 2 bonus spells and 3 domains would be 3 bonus spells at each level. Just a few thoughts.
#389 jameswilliamogle Nov 09, 2007 7:56:45	I agree but most games don't get to level 9 spells where Miracle from the Luck domain is a great deal. The Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine gives the Beguiler a domain. Your PC gets a bonus spell at each level from the Spell domain for having the Arcane Disciple feat and taking the Spell domain. Another benefit is you may learn these spells as normal arcane spells for your class but cast them based on wisdom. At the worst I would think you could pick up some of those domain spells which have become arcane spells for you now in game via Expanded Learning from leveling like you do for other spells not on the base Beguiler spell list. Just one of my thoughts. Oh, I totally agree w/ you on the first point, but you actually need domain slots to cast spells from Anyspell currently, unless you don't use Spell Compendium. Its difficult to get domain slots on a Beguiler. Arcane Disciple only gets you 1 spell of each level per day, so there's also not quite the universal diversity that you'd want (despite the fact that they are just added to the class list, its in the third paragraph). So, three ways to use it well: take a domain that has spells that would generally be once per day (Travel is my favorite for this); choose a domain that has spells that you can pick reserve feats for (slime is fun for acidic splatter, but the cold domain w/ Winter's Blast or Fire domain w/ Fiery Burst might be better); choose a domain that has spells that you can emulate for Shadowcraft Magic cheese, which allows you to emulate the spell w/ Heightened Silent Image w/o the 1/day limit (Luck, Cold, Summoning, etc).
#390 castlemike Nov 09, 2007 8:25:45	I agree the Spell Compendium is probably the best option via Expanded Knowledge variant instead of Advanced Learning like a Warmage. Worst case scenario even with a domain you can normally cast a lower level spell with a higher level domain slot so that is an option for a little more utility.
#391 schizoveen Nov 11, 2007 13:28:14	on the first page it says that a strongheart halfling from forgotten realms would be a good race because of the extra feat and +2 CON...... could anyone help me find where it says you get a +2 CON with a strongheart halfling...because i really kind find it anywhere...
#392 jameswilliamogle Nov 11, 2007 14:21:40	on the first page it says that a strongheart halfling from forgotten realms would be a good race because of the extra feat and +2 CON...... could anyone help me find where it says you get a +2 CON with a strongheart halfling...because i really kind find it anywhere... typo of op.
#393 amatulic Nov 12, 2007 0:42:48	could anyone help me find where it says you get a +2 CON with a strongheart halfling...because i really kind find it anywhere... typo of op. I wish people would email me about errors in this player's guide. I don't check in often. Anyway, good catch. Consider it fixed (as well as some other problems I now noticed after being away from this thread for a while). Oh, and if anyone has anything they want to add or expand, send me a draft of the section and I'll try to get it in. -A
#394 nicholas_the_paladin Nov 15, 2007 13:14:41	I can see the use of cloaked casting, but does the surprise casting ability actually have a useful application for the beguiler? this has already been adressed on this thread. surprised casting starts being usefull at 6th level when it can be done through a move action instead of a standrad action. The only reason why you would use it on lower levels (requring a standard action and thus an extra round), is when an extra +1 DC to your spell is *really* important to make (because a creature has a high will-save for instance).
#395 nicholas_the_paladin Nov 15, 2007 13:30:28	I wish people would email me about errors in this player's guide. I don't check in often. Anyway, good catch. Consider it fixed (as well as some other problems I now noticed after being away from this thread for a while). Oh, and if anyone has anything they want to add or expand, send me a draft of the section and I'll try to get it in. -A amatulic, does that mean you intend to add our ideas like you did before? Or would you rather like to copy and paste?
#396 amatulic Nov 17, 2007 19:24:03	amatulic, does that mean you intend to add our ideas like you did before? Or would you rather like to copy and paste? I haven't abandoned this article, just moved on to other things in my personal life, but I do check in occasionally. Typos, errors, requests to insert a new line in a list, things like that, I can fix if I'm told about them. I've been wanting to add ideas discussed here, but organizing them all into well-formatted sections, looking up missing references, verifying existing references, deciding if the addition is truly meaningful for the Beguiler class or just an interesting idea, takes up more time than I have at the moment. So, if anyone wants to write a new section, or re-write a section, I'd prefer email containing a reasonably-well-formatted and well-referenced block of text I can copy and paste into the original article. Or a private message might be better. I understand there's a length limit to posts, and the original article at the start of this thread might be approaching that limit. If that happens, perhaps we (or maybe you, Nicholas the Paladin) can start a new thread with this article broken up into multiple posts, or look for any cruft in the article to eliminate so that new stuff can be fit in. Some of the presige classes, for example, aren't really optimal in my opinion. So, how's your beguiler coming along? We play once every two months on average because our group consists of working professionals with families, so finding a free day common to 7 busy people is challenging. Our campaign is also pretty hard; since starting at level 1, it seems PCs die after leveling up 2 or 3 times. Most of us are on our 3rd character already. My beguiler (my second PC) died just when he reached 6th level, and because the rest of the party was 7th, I decided not to resurrect him at 5th because he'd be ineffective in a 7th-level party facing commensurate foes. That's one thing I learned about this class: A beguiler's class level must be at least the average of your party to be useful, else the foes save against most of your spells, and all you have left are utility spells like invisibility. I moved on to playing a dragonborn water mephling marshal 3 / dragon shaman 3 because her benefits to the party aren't as level-dependent. She's a pure support PC; she doesn't do anything except manage 3 auras, use her entangling breath weapon, and use bluff/diplomacy/disguise when needed. She barely survived last session (went into negative HP for a couple rounds), but her donkey carrying her gear got killed along with an ally. My 4th character will be a daelkyr half-blood duskblade teetering on the edge of evil. I do want to play a beguiler again, especially above 6th level, but it will have to be in a new campaign where I can start fresh on a level playing field, not 2 levels behind the rest of the party. -Alex
#397 operation_shoestring Nov 18, 2007 1:16:57	It's been noted that the beguiler can get into Unseen Seer at relatively low level without multi-classing, Given the relatively low number of divination spells a beguiler gets though, would you say it is worth it to lose an advanced learning spell and automatic SR penetration for Hunter's Eye?
#398 nicholas_the_paladin Nov 18, 2007 4:01:05	I understand there's a length limit to posts, and the original article at the start of this thread might be approaching that limit. If that happens, perhaps we (or maybe you, Nicholas the Paladin) can start a new thread with this article broken up into multiple posts, or look for any cruft in the article to eliminate so that new stuff can be fit in. I'm always willing to help, but starting a new thread'by me would only solve the 'post length' issue, since I too have a professional life (with added Masters). I'm not sure if I would do better then you in maintaining te thread. So, how's your beguiler coming along? Well since we're all working, a once a month session is usually what we can ge at the most. I'm stuck at 5th level, but after this adventure (that I DM btw) my character will be 6th level. I'm mainly interested in my featchoices after 12th level and the occasional tactical questions (how to cast you spell most effectively). For the rest I'm pretty confident it's worked out (example: for magical items I already have my list for the coming 8 levels orso) I'm currently working with a co-DM on an idea of making my Beguiler a 'information-broker" or "spy" by using the "Bardic Knowledge" ability: this includes getting an income from your work and building a reputation. (BTW, I don't think I would experience that many problems with a Beguiler that is lower in level than the rest of the group. My spell-DC's are much higher(+2) then our mage's and cleric's and they are getting along aswell. With the use of the DC enhancing feats you describe in the starting post, you're pretty safe. The Beguiler can make good use of his limited school-acces. The otherwise not as usefull 'spellfocus' feats are good now. Cloaked casting (adding a +1) is pretty easy to use when you max your 'Hide skill' or invest in magical items that allow you to remain unseen. Just my two cents). Beguilers Rule !! (the earth)
#399 vangrue Nov 23, 2007 23:36:38	I've got a game I'll be joining in soon, about next week or so, and when asked what the party already has and what character ideas would be good, the DM told me that pretty much everything is covered, but they have no rogue and no straight-up spellcaster. Beguiler came to mind, and while I've never really played a spellcaster in a PnP session, this thread has definitely made it much more interesting. The fact that I don't have to actually pick my spells-known or prepare them every day is a big relief, and I'm pretty excited to try it out. I actually made two builds for the campaign, and I've got to decide between them now, to see which one I'll use. One is a regular Forest Gnome beguiler, while the other (the first one I made) is a Gnome Half-Fey beguiler. The half-fey seemed fun and a good mix with the class. It's a low-level beginning campaign, though (everyone else started at level one, and now they're between 4 and 5), so I got permission from the DM to construct a "Lesser" Half-Fey alternative (similar to the lesser variations given in PGtF) to reduce the LA. Trying to re-balance the features of a +2 LA template into a +1 was tough, but I've found something that should do the trick. With LA-buyoff, I just barely got the character to level 4 (while everyone else is half-way to 5). So, I should catch up quick. Regardless of which one I go with, I want to stick with a gnome-based character, since someone else's character is a bugbear. I foresee RP getting fun between the two. :D Just wanted to thank you guys (especially amatulic) for the Handbook.
#400 amatulic Nov 29, 2007 3:02:50	Regardless of which one I go with, I want to stick with a gnome-based character, since someone else's character is a bugbear. I foresee RP getting fun between the two. :D Just wanted to thank you guys (especially amatulic) for the Handbook. Aw, shucks. You'll probably find that the beguiler gets most useful at level 6. Being one level below the rest of your party, you may want to avoid mind-affecting spells if the monsters you're fighting have high hit dice. Concentrate on illusions at first, especially stuff that has no saves. -A
#401 vangrue Nov 30, 2007 20:46:49	Aw, shucks. You'll probably find that the beguiler gets most useful at level 6. Being one level below the rest of your party, you may want to avoid mind-affecting spells if the monsters you're fighting have high hit dice. Concentrate on illusions at first, especially stuff that has no saves. -A Thanks. I actually ended up coming up with a custom race-template, which works out really well with the campaign. It's mostly balanced, and could probably be played as a LA +0 template like the Unseelie template from the Dragon Compendium (though I'm sure many would consider it worthy of a higher LA than that). I used that as a basis for mine, but out of guilt I made it a +1 LA, and actually split it into two different templates to add more variety. It should work really well in the game and with the character. Since I'm joining when the characters are just past level 4, I was able to use LA-buyoff to get my character just to level 4, so I'm really not far behind and the encounters will be fair. I can't wait to start playing! Thanks for the tips and techniques.
#402 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 01, 2007 6:39:20	@ amatulic, at the moment I'm compiling a couple of my old post, some of others and some extra ifo into some nice tips for Beguilers. When I'm ready I'll post it here and send you an e-mail. Seeya!
#403 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 02, 2007 7:40:29	To add more info to this Handbook, I gave the tactical aspect of being a Beguiler some thought. I hope you find it usefull. TACTICS Level 1-3 (1st level spells) - Hypnotism: This spell is perfect for battlefield controll. I usually use it the first round (Improved Init) of combat, in which I can use my 'cloaked casting' ability (+1 DC). What i usually do is cast the spell on one or two warrior/beastly types that i want out of the way (most are standing in the front). I kindly ask them to move to a designated (neutral) spot and lie down (prone). This way: - the warriors in my group get a clearer path towards the more interesting opponents - the duration of 2d4 rounds can be enough to move in for the kill of the 'hypnotised' creatures and when they get up, they get an additional AoO. (you can affect 2d4 HD, which at 3rd level is wiser to use on only one opponent) - silent image: It’s mainly a battle field control spell. I use is to confuse and stall opponents. I also use it to created utter ‘darkness’ of mist to block line of sight, using a command word for my teammates to inform them of the illusion (will with +4 save). Also see ‘minor image.’ - color spray: When I can safely get up close (when our warriors are fighting in front of me), I use color spray to stun 1 or 2 opponents. This can be a very potent spell ! - sleep: I usually use the spell only when I can sneak up on my enemies, surprise them and I know their HD's aren't that high. I usually don't want to spend a full round on a spell that I know has a 4HD cap. It gets more risky to cast at 3rd level, since HD’s can be higher. - Net of Shadows: For me this is a really nice battlefield controll spell ! I use this to blind the warrior types (1 / level !) in order to get our warriors to their more vulnerable opponents. Or I use it to blind annoying archers. Or, when I feel lucky, I use it to blind spellcasters. It all depends on the layout of the battlefield and the opportunities I see. I also use this spell to conceal our party rogue and myself when we are up ahead scouting and happen to stumble upon something and need to hide quickly. Level 4-5 (2nd level spells) These levels, and especially level 5, aren’t the best ones for a Beguiler. The second level spells aren’t that effective and at 5th level many of your opponents and/or fellow casters get 3rd level spells. Offence: - Silence: This spell is just usefull against enemy-spellcasters. When they fail there will-save at lower level they’re out of the game or at least seriously handicapped. Of course I don’t need to tell you that spell casters tend to have high will-saves. - Vertigo: this spell is just usefull against warrior-types, since it only prevents a subject from moving. Unfortunately even when the subject fails it’s will-save, it can move anyway when succeeding in a DC 10 Balance check. So Don’t try this spell on a Warblade. - Glitterdust: Good old Glitterdust; a multi-useable spell. It makes invisible creature appear again and could blind anyone failing there will-save in a 10ft spread. The only downside is that it’s a Conjuration-spell. There’s a good chance that you invest feats in raising the DC from Illusion and Enchantment spells, so the DC from this spell is not that optimal. - Blinding Colour Surge: In combat, this beats normal invisibility since it can blind one opponent for one round. I usually just cast invisibility, if I *have* to get away, of have to get to another spot on the battlefield. I expected much of this spell, but in the end I didn’t use it that much. Defence: - Blur: the 20% miss-chance is okay, but at lower levels it’s nothing compared to Mirror Image. - Mirror Image: A spell that you should cast right away when expecting trouble. The duration is long enough to cast it some time beforehand. Let’s say you have 3 images, than you’re opponent has a miss-chance of 75%. At lower levels opponents have not that many attacks, so this spell should last quite a while. - Stay the Hand: It’s so nice because it’s a immediate action, but at lower levels casting a 2nd level spell for an effect that only might last for one round is a bit expensive. It prevents an enemy from attacking you or a friend and you get an attack that is redirected at another opponent. (“No no no, don’t go that way. Go THAT way. And smack that ugly fellow you’re passing while you’re at it”) Battlefield controll: - Hypnotic pattern: In practice it effectively takes out some opponents for just 2-3 rounds. There’s a catch with ‘fascinated’ creatures. If they’re threatened by anyone (even their friends) they snap out of their trance. So it’s usually wiser to cast it on opponents that aren’t in front where the heat is. I used it on some fellows that where in the rear of an approaching force. - Minor Image: As ever with the image-spells, it requires you to have a good imagination and the talent to notice an opportunity when you see it. Since this spell has sound and the silent image doesn’t, I usually use this spell to steal some rounds from my opponents by making illusionary opponents. A Ghost is a classic of course. The Downside is that it requires you to maintain concentration and a will-save is granted after contact is made, so this makes it a battlefield control spell that should be used cleverly (usually in the beginning of or before combat). - Fog Cloud: Usually used to block line of sight and to create a minor buffer against onrushing opponents when they *did* see you after all (movement is slowed somewhat). Simple battlefield control. Spells I doubt be usefull: - Whelming Blast: for 2d6 subdual, mind-affecting damage you should be getting close to make the 30ft cone effective. I wouldn’t do it if I where you. - Touch of Idiocy: This spell is pretty situational and is only usefull versus spell-casters. Let’s say you have the chance to get close to a spellcaster (spell requires touch) and are able to hit it, it takes away 1d6 INT/WIS/CHA. Let’s say this spell-caster has a INT of 16 and is 5th level…and you hit it for 4 INT-damage…it’s INT is still 12 and it can still cast 2nd level spells. But on the other hand, the spellcaster could also be 4th level, have INT 18 and you hit only for 2….. Too tricky in my opinion. But if you happen to get close, and you feel lucky…hey, give it a try. - daze monster: You are using one action, to steal one action from an opponent (max 6 HD). ‘Daze’ was okay, but ‘daze monster’ is just to weak for a 2nd level spell (man, it’s just crap). Tricky Monsters that require your attention Based on an earlier post by Arjomanes: Many monsters have abilities that can foil the beguiler's plans. Some in particular are immune or have advantages against many of the beguiler's spells. Here's a quick glance at the SRD. When you factor in all the big and nasties from MM2-5, you'll find more headache monsters. In general, it seems like if it's not a human it's got something to protect it against your spells. Outsiders. Many outsiders have abilities that bypass illusion magic. Demons, in particular, are bad foes since many get see invisibility or true seeing. Demons with true seeing: Balor (CR 20), Glabrezu (CR13), Nalfeshnee (CR 14). With see invibility: Babau (CR 6), Marilith (CR 14). Retriever has an effect like discern location. Of the devils, the Erinyes (Cr 8) has true seeing. All abominations have true seeing. Most of these true seeing abilities are Supernatural, so feats like ‘insidious magic’ don’t work against them. Many outsiders also have blindsense or blindsight. The ‘darskstalker’ feat from LoM would be handy here. Most outsiders are still susceptible to enchantment spells, and many can still be foiled with illusion magic. At CR 12+ many demons begin getting true seeing, but some still do not possess the ability. And devils in general seem to have been gone the day they were handing out true seeing. Undead. Undead are really difficult in that no enchantment spells, sleep, hold, pw:stun, pw:kill, or whelm spells will work against them. They are immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, nonlethal damage, ability damage, stunning, spells with fortitude saves, and death effects. These will pretty much be your worst nightmare, so if you're impersonating a cleric make sure you don't get shipped out to fight ghouls. Undead can still be tricked by illusion spells, but some intelligent undead also have true seeing. A simple ‘Hide from Undead’ scroll might save your hide. Lycanthropes, Animals, Magical Beasts, some Humanoids. Many of these monsters have the scent ability, which means that they can smell you from within 30'. Animals are also immune to language-dependent spells, like suggestion. For the most part, these monsters are not immune to illusion (except some instances of silent image for creatures with scent), or enchantments. Dwarves, elves, etc. Some races have bonuses against enchantments or spells, or are immune to sleep effects. Don't cast sleep on a group of elves. Construct. As non-living creatures, constructs are immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, nonlethal damage, ability damage, stunning, spells with fortitude saves, and death effects. So they are almost as much of a problem as Undead. Constructs are not immune to illusions and can be tricked. Additionally most constructs will have a low will save so they are especially susceptible to figments. Dragon. Actually dragons aren't too bad, all things considered. They have immunity to magic sleep and paralysis, and they have blindsense 60'. Mature adults can learn true seeing while young adults can learn see invisibility or glitterdust. Dragons are not immune to enchantment spells, and all but the biggest and scariest are susceptible to illusions. Plus, since they're intelligent they are as susceptible to bluff and diplomacy as humanoids would be. Elemental. Another outsider, elementals are immune to sleep and paralysis. But they can be enchanted and tricked by illusions. Ooze. This one is tough. It's immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, polymorph and stunning. Also since it can't see, it's immune to illusions and visual effect that rely on sight. But oozes aren't immune to illusions that have scent and thermal effects, so ‘major image’ can work against them. Te options are pretty limited versus these creatures, so maybe you’re better of buffing your friends or UMD’ing a scroll or wand. Plant. Plants are pretty similar to oozes. They're immune to all mind-affecting spells, sleep, paralysis, polymorph and stunning. They aren't however immune to visual effects or subdual damage. Vermin. Another monster that's immune to all mind-affecting spells. Almost makes you want to get some scrolls of awaken. Not immune to illusions or subdual damage. Can't see invisible creatures. Some vermin may have blindsense or blindsight. Swarm. Like vermin swarms are immune to all mind-affecting spells, unless they have an intelligence and hive mind. They are also immune to targeted spells, so you need ‘area effect’ spells. They aren't immune to illusions or subdual damage (though see above about the targeted spells). Or a scroll with some wind spells on it. Avoiding a bad day Based on an earlier post by Arjomanes: Things to consider about special abilities that don't play nice. Spot and Listen. Anyone can make a DC 20 Spot check to detect the presence of an invisible creature within 30'. DC 40 to pinpoint them. Listen check that beats move silently will detect presence, if they beat it by 20 they can pinpoint location. So in the least keep adding ranks in Move Silently. True seeing. This spell is tricky since it sees through illusions and can see invisible and magically disguised creatures. But it does not see through fog, mundane disguise, or plain old hiding (though it can see in the dark). True seeing can be dispelled. The 3rd level spell ‘nondetection’ could also help. But not all DM’s will agree with you since there seems to be some discussion about this. The 8th level spell ‘mind blank’ will help too, but unfortunately it’s an 8th level spell. See also: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=879889&highlight=true+seeing And: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=937490&highlight=true+seeing Besides that: when your willing to take the ‘shadow weave caster’ feat and the ‘insidious magic’ feat from PGtF (which you will get for free BTW, from the Shadow Adept PrC) you’ll be able to fool ‘True Seeing’ in about 50% of the time. This includes the illusions (like invis) you cast on yourself, ….but it also protects your image-illusions ! See Invisibility. It can see through your invisibility, but that's it. It does not see through illusions, fog, hiding, etc. So if you suspect your enemy has see invisibility on, wrap yourself in another illusion that will still trick the viewer. You could use silent image to create a false wall or ceiling, or disguise yourself like your target's ally. This spell can also be dispelled ofcourse. The 3rd level spell ‘nondetection’ will also help. It has a duration of 1 hour per level, so casting it at the beginning of the day could pay of. Again with ‘shadow weave caster’ and ‘insidious magic’ feat from PFtF you’ll be able to fool ‘see invisibilty’ in about 50% of the time. Scent. If you're within 30' they can smell you. 60' if they're downwind from you. 15' if you're upwind from them. This will foil some silent image illusions and definitely foil your invisibility. Scent doesn't function if a strong smell is already present. ‘Major image’ also alters scent so make sure you think of adding or masking scent. Blindsight and Blindsense. This is more effective then scent, since it uses multiple senses. It seems like ‘major image’ could foil this too if you use both scent and thermal illusion in addition to visual illusion. If your really serious about being sneaky and want to avoid being caught be these abilities; take the ‘darkstalker’ feat from Lords of Madness. Sense Motive. Many outsiders and dragons have a healthy sense motive check, so tread carefully when bluffing them. Magical Items: Many items have already been mentioned, but here are some more to consider. Really nice items: - anklet of translocation (MIC, p.71)- 1400 gp Make 10ft teleportation 'hops’ as a swift action, 2/day. This will get you past that mean looking opponent, that door that wouldn't budge or… get out from a grapple (some Beguilers are small). And it’s cheap. - Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark, p.101, 5500gp): You get a +1 deflection modifier to AC, but the real power is the ability to 3/day use a immediate action to either get ‘concealment’ for one round or …. Teleport 10ft away in any direction. This is great for a Beguiler, since Fly or Levitate isn’t on your spell-list and you too have to avoid that charging warrior once in a while. With the new rules in MIC, you could also increase the +1 deflection bonus with some little extra money. - gloves of the starry sky (p. 204) -1100gp These pair of gloves give you 'light' at will, but the real treat is the 'magic missles 3 /day at *your* caster level. So when at higher levels you stand against some critters that are immune to your spells, this baby will give you a nice option (it uses 1st level spellslots) Some nice ones to consider: - cloak of elemental protection (p.87)- 1000gp Has been mentioned before. Get resistance-10 versus any energytype as an immediate action. It’s cheap enough to sell again when another item is needed. - Ring of anticipation (Drow of the Underdark, p.100 , 6000gp): Gives you a +2 spot and listen and when you roll for initiative, roll 2 dice and take the best one. This works nicely in conjunction with the ‘cloaked casting’ ability. - dimension stride boots (p.94)- 2000gp make a teleportation 'jump' up to 60ft as a standard action, has several charges/day. Great for a gettaway to a safer place or to get past those guards - eternal wand, 1st level (p.159)- 820 gp get to use some usefull 1st level spells 2/day, even if they're not on your spell-list. - magic bedroll (p.163)- 500 gp heal 1hp/level *extra* when sleeping, besides the usual healing you get from rest. - The Gloves of the Starry Sky are part of the Raiment of the Four Pieces (MIC) set. Pretty much all of them are worthwhile for a Beguiler. Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball & the Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting at your level ... Goggles of the Golden Sun let you cast Fireball at your level, but with a reflex-DC of 14. That's not good for 4000 Gp (but maybe that's just me). …but when you’re feeling desperate….. The magic missles from Gloves of the Starry Sky of course don't require a save, so are very usefull and use a 1st level spell-slot that gets cheaper every time you gain a level. Belt of the Wide Earth enable Teleport casting 1/day and the price (8000gp) is much higher then the other items. (Teleport is very usefull, but some parties consider this spell a gamebreaker) Feats: - Darkstalker (LoM): The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Maddness makes you undetectable by blindsense, tremor sense and blind sight. - Touch of distraction (CM, p.48): A feat that grands a +1 CL to enchantments: Prerequisite: Ability to cast 3rd-level spells. Benefit: As long as you have an enchantment spell of 3rd level or higher available to cast, you can cloud the mind of a creature within 30 feet as a standard action. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting enchantment spells.
#404 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 04, 2007 6:07:11	another suggestion for a feat: "invisible spell" from Cityscape. Fits the Beguiler-theme nicely. It makes spells invisible without the requirement of a higher spell-slot (it has no 'visible manyfestation'). THis is useless for most Beguiler spells, since they have no visible effect anyway. One of the few exceptiuons to this is "legion of sentinels" for instance (invisible warrior who attack at a AoO, that's a perfect combo). And when you use Shadow Conjuration as you advanced learning spell, the mimicked spells can also be invisible. The ones I would use are: - bands of steel (SpC): immobilize or entangle creature (it's a pity that it's just one opponent) - corpse candle (SpC): reveal invis enemies - extoplasmic web (GW): as web, but also affects non-corp (attack) - nauseating breath (SpC): nausea-cone that is 30ft long: effecively take out enemies (not usefull aganinst undead etc) - phantom steed (PHB): very nice steed with extra's - regal procession (SpC): as 'mount' but many mounts (good to have just in case) - sleet storm (PHB): ice area (40ft rad !)without vision: good battlefield controll - stinking cloud (PHB): nausea in 20ft radius: effectively take out enemies (not usefull aganinst undead etc) .... and maybe there are more spell that envelop an area and are effectiev when invisible, because people just walk into it. With the feat 'invisible spell, I would even consider casting "monster summoning III". Making invisible monsters!!: but now I'm stretching the workings of this feat ;)
#405 jameswilliamogle Dec 04, 2007 7:33:46	A cheesey trick I got from another handbook... Silverbrow Human (or Dragonborn) + Snowcasting + Eschew Materials + Draconic Aura: Cold: get another scaling DC booster, this time to ALL your spells. Starts at +1, goes to +4 at L20. If allowed, should be used, as theirs so many important Save spells on the list.
#406 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 05, 2007 2:59:13	Silverbrow Human (or Dragonborn) + Snowcasting + Eschew Materials + Draconic Aura: Cold: get another scaling DC booster, this time to ALL your spells. Starts at +1, goes to +4 at L20.. James, tHis one is so out of the blue. Could you please give a short explaination of how it works? Thanks.
#407 aelion Dec 05, 2007 6:36:08	James, tHis one is so out of the blue. Could you please give a short explaination of how it works? Thanks. Silverbrow human makes you dragontouched. As a dragontouched, the DC bonus to all your [cold] spells granted by Draconic Aura rises with your level, until a maximum of +4 DC at 20th. Snowcasting gives all your spells the [cold] descriptor. Eschew Materials, well... lets you eschew the additional material component that Snowcasting requires (snow, or ice. Or ice cream. Why would you waste a delicious ice cream to cast Dominate Person? Unless you cast it on the ice cream man... ) ANYWAY! Ice creams aside, those 3 feats (2 if you have a lot of snow in your inventory) are a decent way of improving your DCs... My personal opinion, though, is that it's not always an elegant solution: a cold themed beguiler is something you do not see everyday... :P If you play in a party where all casters have snowcasting, well... the Draconic Aura is the best feat ever.
#408 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 6:43:45	James, tHis one is so out of the blue. Could you please give a short explaination of how it works? Thanks. Dragonblood, when taking Draconic Aura, get a +1 bonus to their aura, +1 for every 5 more levels or so (max +4 @ 20th, Dragon Magic, p 17). Draconic Aura: Energy [Cold] gives this bonus to each spell w/ the [Cold] descriptor, any [Cold] abilities you have, etc (Dragon Magic, p 87). Snowcasting allows you to add a material component (Snow) to any spell you cast as a move action and add the [Cold] descriptor to it (Frostburn, p 50). Eschew Materials allows you to ignore the material component cost (Snow). Thus, for a move action ahead of time, you get to cast any spell you know at +1-+4 DC. Furthermore, Cold Focus and Greater Cold Focus also can be used now for another +2 to save DCs (Frostburn, p 47). There has been an argument over Eschew Materials / Snowcasting, mainly entailing that Eschew Materials removes the material component cost so you can't add the snow to it. IMO, you apply the feat effects whenever they'd most benefit the character, so it still should work (Snowcasting, then Eschew Materials).
#409 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 05, 2007 9:32:44	hmmm, bit cheesy. But hey, it's the CO boards!
#410 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 11:33:30	If you have the snow or ice available, it loses the cheesiness aspect. For example, Obscurring Snow (Frostburn): L2 Wizard, 1h / level counts (its a conjuration spell). UMD a wand when you really, really need the extra DC. Freeze Powder (100 gp) and Razor Ice Powder (50 gp) also do this.
#411 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 11:33:53	Have you looked much at Arcane Disciple to see what domains work well to supplement the beguiler's list? I think Travel is a great domain to pick up, as is Celerity, Healing, Earth and Fire. I really like the Envy domain in Spell Compendium, but there are no deities that grant that domain, so you need a houserule to allow that one. Sean K Reynolds kindly supplies us with a really good resource listing the expanded domains of many of the Greyhwak deities, for those who want to take arcane disciple twice. Searching wikipedia will also turn up more obscure deities.
#412 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 05, 2007 12:49:51	Have you looked much at Arcane Disciple to see what domains work well to supplement the beguiler's list? That IS a great idea. No I haven't given it much thought yet, because....from what book is it? ;) I think Travel is a great domain to pick up, as is Celerity, Healing, Earth and Fire. I really like the Envy domain in Spell Compendium, but there are no deities that grant that domain, so you need a houserule to allow that one. I loooove Travel. Healing is really nice (since we are without cleric). Earth and Fire don't fit my idea of the beguiler. The same could be said for te Cold and Sun domains or Storm (FR). What do you like about Envy: it's spells are for the most part already on the Beguiler spell-list? (you like Wish?) the same counts for Celerity. Sean K Reynolds kindly supplies us with a really good resource listing the expanded domains of many of the Greyhwak deities, for those who want to take arcane disciple twice. Searching wikipedia will also turn up more obscure deities. we play FR, so that won't do me much good. I checked the PGtF, SpC, and PHB and didn't find any other Domains that I like enough. Travel and Healing are great, though. Good idea.
#413 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 12:53:50	There's a problem w/ Arcane Disciple (CD): namely, you only cast them once per day. So, you either use it for PrC requirements, or you pick a domain that has a spell list that you'd only want to cast once per day. Travel is my personal favorite for that.
#414 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 05, 2007 13:26:14	There's a problem w/ Arcane Disciple (CD): namely, you only cast them once per day. So, you either use it for PrC requirements, or you pick a domain that has a spell list that you'd only want to cast once per day. Travel is my personal favorite for that. ah, it's a feat. I thought it to be a PrC. I second the use of Travel.
#415 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 13:56:53	Yeah you do only get it once a day, and you have to cast it based on your wisdom score so you don't want anything that will need a save, but it's pretty good for utility spells. Some spells you won't really need more than 1/day, and it's a lot better than 0/day. I agree that Travel looks like one of the best. I'm making a gnome beguiler/earth dreamer/shadowcraft mage who I think will take either the earth or travel domains using arcane disciple (or both, if I can convince my DM and spare the extra feat). Good point on the Envy domain. I'm currently afb so I'll have to check back on that later. Also it occurred to me that it has a lot of debuffers, which would be bad since you have to use wisdom to set the DCs on those. edit: Even though it's only once per day, Healing domain might also be worth it just to make scrolls and wands easier to use.
#416 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 13:57:40	Along the same lines, does Divine Oracle seem worth pursuing for a beguiler?
#417 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 05, 2007 14:46:05	Along the same lines, does Divine Oracle seem worth pursuing for a beguiler? Hmm, nice. The divination spells that you aquire though the Oracle domain are fitting for the Beguiler.... even though the spells are on the more general/vague side off the divination-theme (augury, commune?). the thing that worries somewhat, is the 8 Ranks in Knowledge Religion it requires. That 8 ranks cross class, so 16 skillpoints on a skill that is mostly usefull for other characters (knowledge about undead isn't rewarding for a Beguiler: you get to know you suck againt them ;) ) Travel is by far the most practical domain.
#418 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 15:18:07	Gnome Beguiler 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / Divine Oracle 2 / Unseen Seer+6 / XYZ 5 (Earth Dreamer, Shadowcraft Mage, Unseen Seer+4 / Divine Oracle +1, Divine Oracle +4 / Unseen Seer +1, etc) lessens the skill burden. Make sure to pick up Practiced Spellcaster, Martical Study (some Shadow Hand), and Martial Stance (assasin's Stance) to get full benefit out of those Sneak Attack dice.
#419 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 18:18:19	Gnome Beguiler 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / Divine Oracle 2 / Unseen Seer+6 / XYZ 5 (Earth Dreamer, Shadowcraft Mage, Unseen Seer+4 / Divine Oracle +1, Divine Oracle +4 / Unseen Seer +1, etc) lessens the skill burden. Make sure to pick up Practiced Spellcaster, Martical Study (some Shadow Hand), and Martial Stance (assasin's Stance) to get full benefit out of those Sneak Attack dice. How do you get sneak attack to qualify for Unseen Seer though?
#420 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 18:24:54	Hmm, nice. The divination spells that you aquire though the Oracle domain are fitting for the Beguiler.... even though the spells are on the more general/vague side off the divination-theme (augury, commune?). the thing that worries somewhat, is the 8 Ranks in Knowledge Religion it requires. That 8 ranks cross class, so 16 skillpoints on a skill that is mostly usefull for other characters (knowledge about undead isn't rewarding for a Beguiler: you get to know you suck againt them ;) ) Travel is by far the most practical domain. Yeah that's a good point about the knowledge religion skills required. You could take Able Learner and a level in wizard or archivist I guess, but that sounds like a bad idea.
#421 castlemike Dec 05, 2007 19:39:22	The Travel Domain is nice but the Spell Domain is really nice for the extra bonus castings of Mage Armor (Nice if you go Ulitmate Magus and have a familiar or a monk in the group), Silence, Any Spell (0 - 2nd), Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Break Enchantment, Any Spell (Greater 0 - 5th), Limited Wish, Anti Magic Field and MDJ, because you always use a lower level spell in a higer level bonus spell slot. The 2 daily Anyspells (3 if you use Rary's and possibly more) and basic spell book of non standard Beguiler spells opens up a lot of possibilities for a Beguiler with 15 minutes (Commune, Fabricate, Heal (Adept Version), Teleport). Rary's Menmonic lets you "prepare" up to 3 additional levels of spells, you prepare and cast these spells normally (Maybe a little gray but shouldn't that include spells like Magic Missile or Shield?) or retain a level 3 or below spell just cast really nice for minor utility spellcasting between adventures.. If flaws are an option Ultimate Magus is really good with Beguiler and fueling meta with the practiced spellcaster feat for those Quickened spells at levels 14+ and a lot more spell options especially in a level 20 build.
#422 castlemike Dec 05, 2007 20:11:02	How do you get sneak attack to qualify for Unseen Seer though? Unseen Seer doesn't require Sneak Attack as a prerequisite.
#423 jameswilliamogle Dec 05, 2007 22:05:33	Unseen Seer doesn't require Sneak Attack as a prerequisite. Correct; I either use Spellthief or Assasin's Stance just to get Sneak Attack so you can advance it via Unseen Seer.
#424 castlemike Dec 05, 2007 22:37:16	I can see the Spell Thief level and taking advantage of the Master Spell Thief feat otherwise I don't see the need. With straight Beguiler your Sneak Attack, Skirmish, or Sudden Strike damage is zero you don't normally have it. The Unseen Seer Damage bonus special class ability is generic enough it stacks with Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike or Skirmish. It doesn't say it is lost if you don't have any of the three class specials abilites (which it normally would in the case of a duplicated special ability) plus in becoming an Unseen Seer it specifically says a Beguiler can qualify for the class without multiclassing. Every game is different but I'd don't see why it would be an issue.
#425 arjomanes Dec 05, 2007 23:40:00	Unseen Seer doesn't require Sneak Attack as a prerequisite. Wow. You're right. I'd forgotten that it wasn't a prereq. That's really interesting.
#426 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 06, 2007 0:06:22	The Travel Domain is nice but the Spell Domain is really nice for the extra bonus castings of Mage Armor (Nice if you go Ulitmate Magus and have a familiar or a monk in the group), Silence, Any Spell (0 - 2nd), Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Break Enchantment, Any Spell (Greater 0 - 5th), Limited Wish, Anti Magic Field and MDJ, because you always use a lower level spell in a higer level bonus spell slot.. The Spell-domain, from what book is it? If it's something relatively new, then *adding* it to one of the FR-Goods in order to get it through Arcane Disciple is a bit tough. I'm not keen on negotiating this. And,..... What's so good about Unseen Seer? It doens't look so tough to me, aside from adding Divinaion spells to your already extensive divination-list. I don't need a damage bonus.
#427 castlemike Dec 06, 2007 0:10:15	It's in the FRCS source book, the Player's guide to Faerun and the Spell Compendium and probably a few more but those are three good ones. Unseen Seer is okay and has some interesting specials. I was just making a point that Unseen Seer doesn't require the Sneak Attack for a prerequisite although the single level of SpellThief could be nice with the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel in some games. I'm more of a proponent for going Ultimate Magus than going Unseen Seer for the Quickened and other meta fueled spellcasting and some extra spellcasting options. Dipping into ACM if damage dealing spells are really desired with High Arcana or going Shadow Caster - 5. If I was going to give up a spellcasting level Factotum - 1 from Dungeonscape would probably be a nice bet since it has some nice Intelligence based specials usable each encounter with Inspiration Points
#428 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 06, 2007 0:47:08	It's in the FRCS source book, the Player's guide to Faerun and the Spell Compendium and probably a few more but those are three good ones. Thanks. I see that in FR the Gods Azuth, Mystra, Savras and Thoth (?) give acces to this domain. Not my favorite Beguiler Gods, but it's possible. Unseen Seer is okay and has some interesting specials. I was just making a point that Unseen Seer doesn't require the Sneak Attack for a prerequisite although the single level of SpellThief could be nice with the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel in some games. Well, I wasn't really referring to your comment. I think it was James's idea that got me interested. What I undetstand is that he mainly uses the PrC for getting into the Divine Orace PrC (US gives you a lot of 'knowledge skills' including religion) But US itself I don't find that appealing. Unseen Seer gives full spallcasting progression, an unneeded damage bonus at 1st level, advanced learning at 2nd and 'silent spell' at 2nd (but that's a feat you already get from being a Beguiler) I'm more of a proponent for going Ultimate Magus than going Unseen Seer for the Quickened and other meta fueled spellcasting and some extra spellcasting options. Dipping into ACM if damage dealing spells are really desired with High Arcana or going Shadow Caster - 5. Call me a neanderthal, but tha's just gibberish to me. please...speak...slowly... BTW, the Ultimate Magus has the prerequisite that you'd be able to cast 2nd level spells from a spellbook. For a Beguiler that means 'wasting' 3 levels to a Mage. I would never do that.
#429 castlemike Dec 06, 2007 1:07:38	Beguiler -1, Specialist Mage -1, Beguiler +3, Ultimate Magus - 10, Shadowcraft Mage - 5 or (4 + Shadow Adept - 1 from FRCS). Any time after UM- 4 Shadowcraft Mage levels can start being added to the mix since you will be able to fuel some Quickened spell meta from the Beguiler side. Take Practiced Caster feat from Complete Arcane twice so you can add +10 casting level progression of existing class to Beguiler, (so using the Flaws variant is nice) and the +7 casting level progression to the Mage side. Beguiler - 19th level spellcasting (+ 4 Arcane Spell Power levels from Ultimate Magus) as a level 23 caster. Specialist Mage to taste 1 + 7 (From Ultimate Magus) = Level 8 Specialist Mage spell casting as a level 8 + 4 (PS) + 4 (PS) + 4 (ASP) = level 20 caster. UM provides 2 bonus feats so take the Quicken feat and you can Quicken your Specialist Mage spells with a level 4 Beguiler spell to fuel the meta. UM lets you fuel meta up to level 5 spells equal to 3 +1/2 your class level with Augmented Casting take another meta feat to taste. UM lets you add 5 spells from your Mage spell book to the list of arcane spells known as a Beguiler as Expanded Knowledge which provides a lot of spell versatility. You can drop a level of Beguiler from 19 to 18 to increase the Mage side casting from 8 to 9 if you want that extra versatility mostly depends on the game. The first level Factotum has some nice Intelligence based specials and 2 Inspiration Points that recharge for each encounter which is pretty nice in a leveling up game from first and so so at level 20 it mostly depends on the game and how they are applied but extra Inspiration Points can be gained from feats. Depending on the 5 spells you take as Expanded Knowledge to Beguiler from your Mage Spell book you can wear your light armor and fuel some of the Beguiler Damage Spells using Quickened meta form the Mage side without ASF by burning those spells for the meta. The Beguiler side doesn't need many damage spells (Magic Missile is nice because it hits and another spell or spells to taste). ***In a leveling up game the level 9 Ultimate Magus(-4) can start fueling some Quickened level 1 and 2 spells on his Mage side by burning level 4 Beguiler spells and do meta casting better than most straight wizards normally via Ultimate Magus (although he can't wear light armor without ASF for the Mage spellcasting) although spells like Mage Armor or (Silver Dragon Armor forget the source book) can make up for it.
#430 Omen_of_Peace Dec 06, 2007 7:23:47	You can't take PS twice for the same class, so you lose an extra CL on the Beguiler side.
#431 mongoosefamiliar Dec 06, 2007 11:57:18	I was paging through Races of the Wild and saw an interesting feat combo for all the small sized (or smaller) Beguiler types to consider. I'm sure it is not optimized, but it has interesting possibilities. 1. Underfoot Combat - Basically, you stand under the big dumb brute and everything has more trouble hitting you. 2. Confound the Big Folk - A tactical maneuver where you do the same as above, but in the next round the guy whose square you are in is flatfooted. There are probably easier ways to hit with cloaked casting, but this is probably one of the more amusing.
#432 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 12, 2007 2:17:58	magical Items (some more that are worth you attenion) - Mesmerist's Gloves (Magic Item Compendium, 8000): Affect an extra target with your enchantment spells (max 3rd lvl) a few times per day. Not bad. Makes spells like Suggestion, Hold Person and Hesitate worth it. - Barbs of Retribution (Magic Item Compendium: 1/day have an enemy reroll a save with a penalty. Great stuff. - Amulet of Second Chances (Magic Item Compendium): That really important spell that you needed to go through to take over the boss saved against? No problem, with this amulet! Since your effects are reliant on chance (to a degree), the ability to get a free do-over is very potent. Of course, this amulet has many more uses than that (defensive, helping your allies, etc.). Definitely worth the money, even if its only 1/day. - Metamagic Rods (Dungeon Master's Guide, start from 3000gp): Always useful, especially since you likely won't have the feats to invest in many (if any) metamagic spells. I like the 'enlarge' version for 3000gp, since many of your spells have a very small range (going from 40 to 80 feet is a big step) -Tome of Clear Thought (Dungeon Master's Guide): Inherent INT bonus; get the total +5 bonus possible asap. It's expensice though.
#433 Omen_of_Peace Dec 13, 2007 1:34:40	Mesmerist's Gloves (Magic Item Compendium, 8000): Affect an extra target with your enchantment spells a few times per day. Not bad. Makes spells like Suggestion, Hold Person and Charm Monster worth it. They have their use, but I'd rather wait for a Lesser Rod of Chaining (14k gp) : the lowered DC is bad, but you hit a lot more targets and can apply 3/day to any spell. Barbs of Retribution (Magic Item Compendium: 1/day have an enemy reroll a save with a penalty. Great stuff. Those are great but you need to be a sorcerer or dragonblooded to use them. If your DM is not willing to let the Beguiler count as a sorcerer for this purpose, you'll have to use UMD to pass for dragonblooded.
#434 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 13, 2007 2:06:21	a simple item that opens up more options: - mithril Buckler +1 (+2 AC, no ASF, 2000gp): it opens up another slot to use for magical enchantments and Crystals from MIC (I consider the +1 deathward enchantment from MIC). More slots, more power.
#435 Kurama_Youko Dec 13, 2007 6:57:24	or you could just play a dragonblooded race such as the silverbrow humans, or forest lord half elves/elves, ect ect ect.. there are quiet of few of them.
#436 vangrue Dec 14, 2007 23:01:36	Phew! Finally finished reading through the whole thread; took a long time! Anyway, I've got some questions and ideas, most of which I can't remember since I came up with them early on during my reading. :D So, the first one I can think of is casting while invisible. The description of the spell getting broken mentions casting spells including foes in its area of effect. If you cast an area spell that's not damaging, but still includes a foe in its area, say casting Obscuring Mist for example, or creating a silent image that fills a space? Furthermore, is there much use in invisibility, or for that matter, the Concealed Spellcasting skilltrick, if the enemies can still hear you? Eventually, if someone's worried about it they can apply Silent Spell, but I don't always want to use up a higher level spell slot and increase the casting time (ignoring for now feats that get rid of the latter). I have a pretty evil (read: competent) DM who remembers simple things like giving listen checks to his baddies. Does anyone know of any good discussions on the uses of the Image spells? Particularly of note are Silent Image and Minor image, as I'm currently only level 4. Another thing; If I plan on going into Shadowcraft Mage, is it worth it to take Shadow Conjuration as my second advanced learning spell? It'll definitely prove useful for a few levels until I get the Shadow Illusions ability (at level, what, 11, 12 by that time?) I got to play my beguiler last week for the first time, and I'll hopefully be able to play him again with some further use of improved tactics! This seems to be a combat-intensive campaign, for now at least, and so far I've managed not to get killed. Having a good AC for low levels definitely helps.
#437 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 15, 2007 7:14:34	Phew! Finally finished reading through the whole thread; took a long time! Anyway, I've got some questions and ideas, most of which I can't remember since I came up with them early on during my reading. :D funny guy (welcolme BTW) So, the first one I can think of is casting while invisible. If you cast an area spell that's not damaging, but still includes a foe in its area, say casting Obscuring Mist for example, or creating a silent image that fills a space? if it's not an attack, you won't end the invisibility. Furthermore, is there much use in invisibility, or for that matter, the Concealed Spellcasting skilltrick, if the enemies can still hear you? Yes, while invisible you can still be heard. Thats why it's wise to spend ranks in MS. Conceal spellcasting (a trick I use often) can fool a spot-check but also a listen-check...it really depends. It's up to the DM if he like to let the NPC make a listen-check besides a spot-check. With the skill-trick you hide your spellcasting, like doing it while 'blowing your nose' or 'fiddling through your pockets.' That *includes* muffling your speech or making it sound as something else. BTW, you don't need to use the skilltrick to do this. You can also use the SoH-rules from Races of stone. THe skilltrick just let's you avoid AoO's Eventually, if someone's worried about it they can apply Silent Spell, but I don't always want to use up a higher level spell slot and increase the casting time (ignoring for now feats that get rid of the latter). I have a pretty evil (read: competent) DM who remembers simple things like giving listen checks to his baddies. competent doesn't have to mean "always outsmart the players". As a DM I would rule that as the NPC's can use a Listen-ceck, they have to do so versus your SoH-check. NOT a regular listen-check, that woudl make this skilltrick almost useless. Does anyone know of any good discussions on the uses of the Image spells? Particularly of note are Silent Image and Minor image, as I'm currently only level 4. there's plenty, just try the search option. I'll give you one: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-686026 Another thing; If I plan on going into Shadowcraft mage, is it worth it to take Shadow Conjuration as my second advanced learning spell? It'll definitely prove useful for a few levels until I get the Shadow Illusions ability (at level, what, 11, 12 by that time?) that's not within my field of knowledge. But isn't having "Shadow Conjuration" crucial to all the Shadowcraft mage-builds?
#438 vangrue Dec 15, 2007 10:03:43	that's not within my field of knowledge. But isn't having "Shadow Conjuration" crucial to all the Shadowcraft mage-builds? Thanks for the help. Any, as per the above, Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are essentially the cornerstone of the class, but at third level you essentially treat any figment spell like silent image, minor/major image, etc. as either shadow conjuration or evocation, at your discretion, when casting, and the real-ness of it from the shadow-stuff depends on the spell-level. The real power comes into play when combining this with heighten spell to increase the effective spell level, apparently. The only problem with that is that to get the highest level spells, you're still using the highest level spell slots to do so. Still, having the actual spells could still prove useful. Ah well, you gives and you takes. By the way, thanks for the link. I did some searching myself before, but most of the threads are only a few posts long. I figured I'd check to see if anyone had any favorite threads or knew of particularly useful ones. Again, thanks for the help. When I next get to play my beguiler, I'm sure he'll be much more effective! Unfortunately, I've still got a few tweaks left to make to my build, haha.
#439 nicholas_the_paladin Dec 21, 2007 6:03:57	some magical items that are always handy: - wand of Fox's Cunning (4500gp, DMG): geting a +2 DC to your saves can mean a lot, especially on the Beguiler save-or-die spells (the caster level is probably 3rd, but I'm not sure) - Eternal wand of Fox's Cunning (4420gp, MIC): could even be better since the caster level is 9th, giving it a 9 minutes duration. You can cast it well ahead.
#440 vangrue Dec 22, 2007 9:56:55	Oh geez. My brother and I were absent from last week's game, and so our evil DM explained away our absence by having our characters kidnapped. Apparently we awoke without equipment and without clothes except for itchy wool garments. Normally this would be fine; Mage Armor, Invisibility, Knock to open the cage door, however I was then told that neither of us can cast. I may still get around this if it's anything but an Anti-Magic Field, since I've got Shadow Weave Magic, but if it's an AMF then I'll have to operate with improvised tools to escape; However, that only works for me. My brother's character is about as sneaky as a rampaging bull, and not to mention I didn't put many ranks into open lock (considering I've got knock). This is going to take some hefty strategic thinking. Do I need more to convince you how evil our DM is? haha
#441 vangrue Dec 23, 2007 2:40:31	So, following my previous post, it turns out that given some smart thinking, and good character planning, the beguiler can still be very effective even when his spellcasting is stripped and he becomes nothing more than a rogue without sneak attack! As I mentioned, my brother's PC and mine were kidnapped by some orcs, drow, and an ogre mage. We were taken to another plane, where we were to be sold into slavery. Before we get sold, slave are pitted against a challenge in the arena to see if they're strong enough to be effective labor. Before this though, we were stuck in cages below ground. We had these torture bracelets on which kept us from concentrating and kept us in line, etc, and in this plane only a select few are permitted by the "Lady of Pain" to cast spells. So, I couldn't even escape my cage with magic even with concealed spellcasting (I'll save that for another day!). The ogre mage was left to guard us. I decided to take a risk, and laid the bluffing on thick. His pride and superiority-complex went to his head, and I played into the lowly slave bit, and convinced him to betray the Drow High Priestess who was the other head honcho along with the Ogre Mage. Separated from the rest of our comrades, the two of us had no choice but to forge some sort of deal with the OM, feed his ego, and figure some way out during this scheme. Luckily for us, our party had also travelled to this other plane, and in order to get back, had to cross paths with us once more anyway. It was a long drawn-out arena battle, and thanks to some boulders to use as cover (along with the Bugbear barbarian!) I managed to survive with nothing but the dinky shortbow I was supplied with and my innate wits. It was also very close at the end, but it was one of the best encounters I've had so far. Oh, and by the way: The Orcs and the Ogre Mage weren't normal. They were from yet another plane, and had negative-energy attacks and auras. Blech! I'm looking forward to finally getting the chance to play my beguiler the way it was meant to, though, rather than just a gimped rogue. :D Skill used the most: Bluff. Runner-up: Hide. :D
#442 frosthammer Dec 24, 2007 10:06:20	Don't forget, you can also use Sleight of Hand to conceal your casting. Sleight of Hand is opposed by an opponents Spot check and he has to beat your Sleight of Hand check in order to notice that you're casting at all. Great in social situations.
#443 vangrue Dec 24, 2007 18:17:05	Don't forget, you can also use Sleight of Hand to conceal your casting. Sleight of Hand is opposed by an opponents Spot check and he has to beat your Sleight of Hand check in order to notice that you're casting at all. Great in social situations. Yes, I knew about that, and I've got the skill-trick as well to help with close-proximity casting, but I literally couldn't cast in this area. Magic was governed by the ruler of the plane or something.
#444 davidwl Jan 03, 2008 0:37:38	What follows are some musings about the casting mechanic of the beguiler, and implications. They apply reasonably equally to the warmage and the dread necromancer. Most of this was inspired by the " Warmages Blow Goats For Pocket Change; OR, Why You Should Play A Sorcerer Instead" thread 1) The beguiler gains *all* of it's spells when it can access a new spell level - A low level beguiler (through level 6 or 8 or so) is much more powerful than a comparable sorcerer. The beguiler will be able to do most of the things the sorcerer can do, plus a whole bunch more. [INDENT]
#445 bellinator Jan 05, 2008 11:04:07	Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) does not make it so you can get to those higher level spells earlier. A wizard would use it to sack two level 3 spells to cast another level 4 spell when he is all spelled out, or when he needs some "Versatility." A beguiler would only use the feat when he is spelled out. For example, a beguiler 4 is out of 2nd level spells for the day. So he would use 2 level 1 slots for 1 more glitterdust. That same level 4 beguiler cannot use 2 level 2 spells to get a level 3. He is not capable of that level 3 spell yet. There is a thread about this on the forum. The thread specifically state how strong versatile spellcaster is with Focused Spellcaster. And believe me it is strong that way! :-)
#446 davidwl Jan 05, 2008 17:19:24	Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) does not make it so you can get to those higher level spells earlier. I explain why I think it can. Can you explain why you think it can't? Best, David
#447 bellinator Jan 05, 2008 18:10:46	I explain why I think it can. Can you explain why you think it can't? Best, David Ok, here is why, 1: the typical CoP board need, the "Read as written;" PHB 2, Page 6 , second column, last paragraph, second sentence: "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguilers's spell list." Since you have not gained access to those level 3 spells in your above example, you don't know them yet. Clearly, you cannot use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell you do not know. 2: and then the as intended, albeit worded badly: Very likely, a caster can't cast the spells above his current spell level because he does not understand them. Then there is the whole game mechanics thing, not too mention good old Common sense. I would never allow the feat to be used that way in a game I run, nor would the people I play with. But that is not relevant. In your argument above, the Beguiler would know all spells on his list at level 1. That makes very little sense. How is the beguiler supposed to understand the thaumaturgy and mechanics of Time Stop at level 1? In the end, remember the heart of the rule, but that is not what the CoP board is all about (RAW), may it go on forever, Amen.
#448 davidwl Jan 05, 2008 23:37:07	Fair enough. I'd still go with it - but I think the RAW is definitely unclear. Best, David P.S. As far as what ultimately matters - well, that's having fun ;). Not only should we screw RAW, we should screw RAI as well.
#449 vangrue Jan 06, 2008 3:38:24	Fair enough. I'd still go with it - but I think the RAW is definitely unclear. Best, David P.S. As far as what ultimately matters - well, that's having fun ;). Not only should we screw RAW, we should screw RAI as well. Well, issues like this come up all the time, and the definitive answer is that characters can not cast spells that they do not know and do not have access to. There is a reason why characters are locked out from spells by level: Spells are designed to bring a certain level of power in conjunction with the character's and the party's levels, in relation to encounters. Trying to find loopholes to cast spells of a higher level than you have access to breaks the game.
#450 nicholas_the_paladin Jan 06, 2008 5:30:04	Hi David, Here are the optimization related consequences that I can think of: - A beguiler can take classes at 19th and 20th level that don't progress caster level ... for example, a Beguiler 17/Wyrm Wizard 2 loses 1 caster level, (1 fewer 8th and 9th level spell) but gains access to *any* spell ... how about Miracle! Could you please give us the source of this PrC? This is a Prc i'd like to see for myself. - A beguiler with the versatile spellcaster (for example of 4th level), knows all the spells on his spell list. If he sacrifices 2 2nd level spell slots, he also has a 3rd level spell slot. 3rd level spell slot + knows all 3rd level spells => He can cast a 3rd level spell. This means that, at the cost of a feat and 2 slots of a lower level, the beguiler can cast spells of 1 level higher than normal. usefull and a nice way to increase your DC's by spending spellslots. But Your given build and it's feats don't take into the account the need for high DC's for the Beguiler. "versatile spellcaster" though, gives you, besides another higher spelloption, a spell with a higher DC. This is much needed for the save-or-die spells of te Beguiler. - A beguiler's low spell access can be partly compensated for with the use of ... Anyspell (anyspell greater). This means that a recaster beguiler could use anyspell and greater anyspell to prepare lower-level arcane spells, giving much needed versatility. the recaster? From what source is this PrC? And, from what soure is the 'anyspell' feat? For the 3 free feats, I'm thinking of some combination of Reach Spell, chain, Residual Spell (for use with anyspell / greater anyspell / miracle), and Darkstalker Reach spell is indeed very usefull, since the range of most Beguiler spell are 'close'. I don't know Residual spell. Darkstalker get's more and more usefull when the beguiler levels and it's Cloaked Casting-abilities go up.
#451 bellinator Jan 06, 2008 9:53:13	Hi David, Could you please give us the source of this PrC? This is a Prc i'd like to see for myself. usefull and a nice way to increase your DC's by spending spellslots. But Your given build and it's feats don't take into the account the need for high DC's for the Beguiler. "versatile spellcaster" though, gives you, besides another higher spelloption, a spell with a higher DC. This is much needed for the save-or-die spells of te Beguiler. the recaster? From what source is this PrC? And, from what soure is the 'anyspell' feat? Reach spell is indeed very usefull, since the range of most Beguiler spell are 'close'. I don't know Residual spell. Darkstalker get's more and more usefull when the beguiler levels and it's Cloaked Casting-abilities go up. Wyrm Wizard is from Dragon Magic Recaster is Races of Eberron Anyspell is in the Spell Compendium Bottom line, always have fun! Crystalkeep.com answers all your source questions.
#452 hekale Jan 06, 2008 19:49:01	Next week I start my first beguiler, and I'm pretty excited--I just got done with a goody-goody dedicated healer (rewarding to save the unkillable pally's butt, but yaaaaawn) so I'm ready for a tricksy character. I have sort of an extended beguiler optimization challenge: It's a gestalt campaign, we're allowed one prestige class only, we start at level six and, knowing the DM, we'll get pretty high. I'd like to do straight beguiler for one side and then sorcerer5/mindbender10/sorcererX. I'm thinking gnome for race, chaotic neutral (who would suspect that sweet little gnome mage of being a mindbender? She just makes friends easily!). I have a good idea what to do with beguiler and mindbender, but I'm in a quandary as to what direction to go with my sorcerer spells: the party has damage casters galore and I'd prefer to remain true to the beguiler flavor (how about summon monster? Nothing like staying invisible and letting the summons fight for you.) I think this combo could open up some dream avenues unavailable to a single-class beguiler without sacrificing its spellcasting ability. I love me the social interactions, so I was planning on putting spell focus on enchantment.
#453 book_hat_dup Jan 06, 2008 19:57:38	Hekale, go post a unique thread in the main CO Forum for help on your build. This thread is for Handbook discussion in general. Besides, your Gestalt direction doesn't look optimized at all!
#454 nicholas_the_paladin Jan 07, 2008 13:33:58	Hekale, go post a unique thread in the main CO Forum for help on your build. This thread is for Handbook discussion in general! I agree.
#455 sterlingds_dup Jan 12, 2008 17:31:04	Would anyone see the use of posting up what spells a beguiler might like to have access to through a runestaff? Other spell-accessing granting items and the arcane disciple feat have come up a lot, so obviously people thing that more spells = more better beguiler. I'm playing a beguiler now (lvl 7) and I'm finding my 1st and 2nd level spell slots often not giving me the bang for the buck in the long term the same way a wizard/sorc's can. Plus, there's the whole issue of undead/constructs/oozes (plus the campaign we are running seems to *really* like to give the BBEG the 'immune to mind affecting spells' ability) So, I'm trying to figure out what 5 themematically similar spells would be best to put on a runestaff. Here's one option Staff of force 1st level magic missle 2nd level blast of force 3rd level ManyJaws 4th Vortex of Teeth 5th Wall of force But this really isn't about solving my problem(which also involves limited funds and and limited books available) I do think most beguilers will want a runestaff, since I read them as easily be usable through UMD. So what would you put into your runestaff? Other ideas off the top of my head - Staff of touches (touch spells, since beguilers seem well suited to diving into the fray to deliver them, and one of their weaknesses (in my mind) is difficulty dealing with opponents with high saves, which touch spells often ignore) Staff of weakness (ability damage, or perhaps damage to saves, again to overcome the 'high save' issues) Staff of conjuration or transmutation (because those schools rock) Other ideas?
#456 alisatan Jan 14, 2008 20:46:27	You mention the Air Gnome as a good 1st lvl race, but it cant make a fully optimized Shadowcraft Mage, (Which you mention as almost mandatory for gnome beguilers) since the feat Earth Sense has a special req that creatures of air or aquatic subtypes may not take it.
#457 castlemike Jan 16, 2008 13:06:14	Staff of force 1st level magic missle 2nd level blast of force 3rd level ManyJaws 4th Vortex of Teeth 5th Wall of force So what would you put into your runestaff? Other ideas? Well it might be a little gray and depend on the game with the variants but isn't the Runestaff requirement that the spells have to be on the wielder's spell class list to use a Runestaff (MIC page 224) so why would a Beguiler need one? Each spell would basically represent a feat. P.S. Thanks for the Practiced Caster catch Omen of Peace
#458 Richmud Jan 16, 2008 17:18:42	Well it might be a little gray and depend on the game with the variants but isn't the Runestaff requirement that the spells have to be on the wielder's spell class list to use a Runestaff (MIC page 224) so why would a Beguiler need one? Each spell would basically represent a feat. P.S. Thanks for the Practiced Caster catch Omen of Peace A beguiler has UMD as a class skill they can use it to convince the runestaff they have the spells and then use their spell slots to power it, most other UMDers can't use runestaffs because they don't have the spell slots to power it with
#459 castlemike Jan 17, 2008 13:41:58	A beguiler has UMD as a class skill they can use it to convince the runestaff they have the spells and then use their spell slots to power it, most other UMDers can't use runestaffs because they don't have the spell slots to power it with Thanks very interesting strategy at high levels. Limited to using suggested wealth by level, the default array and the standard core races without templates and maxing out UMD when does this normally become a viable strategey? Most of those Rods are expensive compared to suggested wealth by level.
#460 sterlingds_dup Jan 18, 2008 19:01:42	Thanks very interesting strategy at high levels. Limited to using suggested wealth by level, the default array and the standard core races without templates and maxing out UMD when does this normally become a viable strategey? Most of those Rods are expensive compared to suggested wealth by level. Well, I'm not maxing out UMD myself, but we are playing in a campaign with action points, which helps a lot. My beguiler is now 8th level, and has a UMD of 14. (emulating a class feature is DC 20) Assuming I can convince my DM that I can buy a +2 UMD skill tool to use the staff with, that gives me pretty low odds of failing (15%) - and even lower if I *need* to make it and would be willing to spend an action point. YMMV. As for cost, the staff I quoted comes in at 16,000. But I could easily drop the 'wall of force' and make it cost only 8200. Here's a quick analysis, with at most 5 spells on the staff, staggering out the spell levels as best as possible Spells of level X on staff/Cost/Level where you can fully use it/Average wealth 1,2 / 1,800 / 4th / 5,400 1,2,3 / 3,800 / 6th / 13,000 1,2,3,4 / 8,200 / 8th / 27,000 1,2,3,4,5 / 16,000 / 10nth / 49,000 2,3,4,5,6 / 25,200 / 12th / 88,000 3,4,5,6,7 / 36,800 / 14nth / 150,000 4,5,6,7,8 / 50,800 /16nth / 260,000 5,6,7,8,9 / 67,200 / 18nth / 440,000 As you can see, a 'full up' runestaff that gives you options at your spell levels runes about 1/3rd average wealth up until about 12th Pretty spendy. On the other hand, one that just covers a spell levels behind you is certainly worthwhile, especially if it breathes new life into your lower level spell slots. So any other runestaff suggestions?
#461 korwin Jan 25, 2008 8:29:04	err, Draconic Polymorph...?
#462 lyndis Apr 27, 2008 16:11:54	Is Emulating having spells on your spell list count as Emulating a class feature?
#463 nicholas_the_paladin May 03, 2008 10:17:13	Is Emulating having spells on your spell list count as Emulating a class feature? Yup, that's the idea. Take a look at my more recent The New Beguiler Handbook. It has some suggestions for Runestaff-spells. Take care,
#464 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 30, 2009 14:33:08	bumpo