Having fun with a concept...Warblade/mage - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Having fun with a concept...Warblade/mage

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
veldan_rath
May 30, 2008 22:09:15 A new campaign is starting up and our DM using the elite stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for character generation.

I know this is the CO board and my concept is a bit weak, but I was hoping for some insight.

My concept is Warblade/Warmage and PrC into Jade Phoenix Mage.

The campaing is starting at 2nd Level with 900 GP

I can enter the PrC by 7th as a WB 2/WM 4 or WB 1/WM 5.

How would you all suggest stat's and feat and such?
#2
kedcoleman
May 30, 2008 22:24:24 There is actually a guidebook to making a good Jade Pheonix Mage about here on the boards somewheres...I dont have the energy to look, but it's there

I would really recommend going with either Crusader or Swordsage (I prefer swordsage but I'm crazy like that) since they compliment the JPM disciplines (WB doesn't give any maneuvers from it's disciplines)

That being said...I'd be heavy on Con for the Concentration bonus, key to many Diamond Mind skills, probably go into a TWF feat line to take advantage of the per-attack Desert Wind stuff. Dex heavy, too, cause you're not gonna be heavily armoured (another perk to going swordsage, wis to AC, though that might be a bit too MAD)

I would say 15/14 Dex and Con, 13 Int, 12 Str, whatever for the rest.
#3
operation_shoestring
May 31, 2008 1:52:39 Warmage????? WHY? It has no synergy with warblade. And it kinda sucks as a caster.
#4
vicen_korel
May 31, 2008 2:16:01 I think it's that "war" in the name, it gets people confused. For some reason they think "war" = "good". Which is proven quite wrong by the warmage class. I could digress into politics at this point, but we'll just say it's done and move on to more optimizing.
#5
Wyvernhand
May 31, 2008 6:31:17 grumble grumble grumble....warmages.....grumble....goats....grumble grumble grumble....pocket change....grumble

....cough....
#6
ranthanas2
May 31, 2008 8:02:57 Rule 1: The Warmage sucks. It can blast, it can blast, or just to make things interesting it can blast. If that's all you want, fine - but this actually synergises very badly with the Jade Phoenix Mage who wants to cut people open with his sword and uses his magic to support that. (It's also just a blaster sorceror, but I digress).

Rule 2: Warblade / Jade Phoenix Mage is a weak combo - you don't get the lower level maneuvers in the two Jade Phoenix disciplines and the JPM doesn't provide you with enough maneuvers (or any retraining) to make up for this.

As a Warmage/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage, your blasts are going to be a long way behind a straight wizard (you're one level behind the wizard for getting spell levels just by being a Warmage, a second from your dip into Warblade, and a third from the first level of Jade Phoenix Mage. To cut a long story short, you're going to be getting third level arcane spells when you hit level 8 - by which time a sorceror is going to have fourth level arcane spells and a wizard is going to be working on fifth. Even a bard is going to reach third level spells before you do (and fourth when you do) and even if he can't evoke, when you are a primary spellcaster and a bard casts better than you do it's time to rethink. (And it's even worse if you took two levels in Warblade - then you're only going to be getting third level spells when a wizard gets fifth level).

As a melee combatant, you gave up a lot of hit points by going warmage - and you've not gained much synergy. First, your warblade gets d6 hit points per level - you're going to go squish on the front lines (and as illustrated above you're not going to do well blasting away from behind them). Second, you've given up at least two (and probably three) points of BAB with nothing to show for it that can actually be used in melee. Due to the lack of synergy, you're going to effectively be a good three levels in effectiveness behind any dedicated melee combatant (or have serious trouble outfighting a bard in melee - your hit points aren't much higher, your BAB is no better, and your extra damage is made up for by Bardic Music).

So in short, you have trouble outcasting a Bard, you have trouble outfighting a Bard, and your build is such that you can't do anything outside combat (which is where the Bard shines - well, that and synergy).

So what can we do?

My suggestion would be to dump the warmage and go with Battle Sorceror (class variant from Unearthed Arcana), and to dump the Warblade and go with Crusader - in this second case you'll have few enough straight levels and hence maneuvers that it won't matter too much from a mechanics perspective. Crusader has two advantages over Warblade - the first being Devoted Spirit, allowing you much easier access to high level maneuvers, and the second being proficiency with all Martial weapons and armour.

The build therefore becomes Battle Sorceror 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage (in by 7th, having only given up 1 caster level and 1 point of BAB). Your blasts can focus on ranged touch spells (which will hit with your BAB). But where you gain is switching out the Warmage spell list for picks from the Sorceror/Wizard spell list. Most notably the Alter Self/Polymorph chain. Alter Self - Lizardfolk gives you a +5 natural bonus to AC and it only gets better from there. (Yes, you can turn into a troglodyte for even more, but it smells). And you also get battlefield control spells as well as just blasting. Also instead of getting light or medium armour (and medium armour generally sucks as it doesn't give you much and slows you down), you can wear light armour and get a Mithral Large Shield without any arcane spell failure chance. By this point you are looking at AC and maneuverability that makes tanks jealous.

It's still not a great build - but I think it is at least viable rather than being something that looks enviously at the spellcasting and combat potential of a Bard. And I don't think that it changes too much in the core concept to switch warmage out for battle sorceror - and not an amazing amount to change Warblade for Crusader when you are going into Jade Phoenix Mage anyway.

Stats: Wis is your dump stat (both Battle Sorc and Spellblade give you good Will saves), and Charisma your high. After that it's up in the air. As for feats, Extra Granted Maneuver is always worth it for a Crusader. And the Martial Study feat to gain White Raven Tactics (at 9th level) is a bargain for the whole party.
#7
brainpiercing
May 31, 2008 19:28:46 There are viable uses for a warmage.

A gish build is not one of them. Then again, a Battle Sorceror is a really really crippled class. ONLY take it if your DM specifically allows Fauxlymorph and it's derivatives. If he doesn't I'd say stick with a Transmuter/incantatrix and get Divine Power from Arcane Disciple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 veldan_rath May 30, 2008 22:09:15	A new campaign is starting up and our DM using the elite stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for character generation. I know this is the CO board and my concept is a bit weak, but I was hoping for some insight. My concept is Warblade/Warmage and PrC into Jade Phoenix Mage. The campaing is starting at 2nd Level with 900 GP I can enter the PrC by 7th as a WB 2/WM 4 or WB 1/WM 5. How would you all suggest stat's and feat and such?
#2 kedcoleman May 30, 2008 22:24:24	There is actually a guidebook to making a good Jade Pheonix Mage about here on the boards somewheres...I dont have the energy to look, but it's there I would really recommend going with either Crusader or Swordsage (I prefer swordsage but I'm crazy like that) since they compliment the JPM disciplines (WB doesn't give any maneuvers from it's disciplines) That being said...I'd be heavy on Con for the Concentration bonus, key to many Diamond Mind skills, probably go into a TWF feat line to take advantage of the per-attack Desert Wind stuff. Dex heavy, too, cause you're not gonna be heavily armoured (another perk to going swordsage, wis to AC, though that might be a bit too MAD) I would say 15/14 Dex and Con, 13 Int, 12 Str, whatever for the rest.
#3 operation_shoestring May 31, 2008 1:52:39	Warmage????? WHY? It has no synergy with warblade. And it kinda sucks as a caster.
#4 vicen_korel May 31, 2008 2:16:01	I think it's that "war" in the name, it gets people confused. For some reason they think "war" = "good". Which is proven quite wrong by the warmage class. I could digress into politics at this point, but we'll just say it's done and move on to more optimizing.
#5 Wyvernhand May 31, 2008 6:31:17	grumble grumble grumble....warmages.....grumble....goats....grumble grumble grumble....pocket change....grumble ....cough....
#6 ranthanas2 May 31, 2008 8:02:57	Rule 1: The Warmage sucks. It can blast, it can blast, or just to make things interesting it can blast. If that's all you want, fine - but this actually synergises very badly with the Jade Phoenix Mage who wants to cut people open with his sword and uses his magic to support that. (It's also just a blaster sorceror, but I digress). Rule 2: Warblade / Jade Phoenix Mage is a weak combo - you don't get the lower level maneuvers in the two Jade Phoenix disciplines and the JPM doesn't provide you with enough maneuvers (or any retraining) to make up for this. As a Warmage/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage, your blasts are going to be a long way behind a straight wizard (you're one level behind the wizard for getting spell levels just by being a Warmage, a second from your dip into Warblade, and a third from the first level of Jade Phoenix Mage. To cut a long story short, you're going to be getting third level arcane spells when you hit level 8 - by which time a sorceror is going to have fourth level arcane spells and a wizard is going to be working on fifth. Even a bard is going to reach third level spells before you do (and fourth when you do) and even if he can't evoke, when you are a primary spellcaster and a bard casts better than you do it's time to rethink. (And it's even worse if you took two levels in Warblade - then you're only going to be getting third level spells when a wizard gets fifth level). As a melee combatant, you gave up a lot of hit points by going warmage - and you've not gained much synergy. First, your warblade gets d6 hit points per level - you're going to go squish on the front lines (and as illustrated above you're not going to do well blasting away from behind them). Second, you've given up at least two (and probably three) points of BAB with nothing to show for it that can actually be used in melee. Due to the lack of synergy, you're going to effectively be a good three levels in effectiveness behind any dedicated melee combatant (or have serious trouble outfighting a bard in melee - your hit points aren't much higher, your BAB is no better, and your extra damage is made up for by Bardic Music). So in short, you have trouble outcasting a Bard, you have trouble outfighting a Bard, and your build is such that you can't do anything outside combat (which is where the Bard shines - well, that and synergy). So what can we do? My suggestion would be to dump the warmage and go with Battle Sorceror (class variant from Unearthed Arcana), and to dump the Warblade and go with Crusader - in this second case you'll have few enough straight levels and hence maneuvers that it won't matter too much from a mechanics perspective. Crusader has two advantages over Warblade - the first being Devoted Spirit, allowing you much easier access to high level maneuvers, and the second being proficiency with all Martial weapons and armour. The build therefore becomes Battle Sorceror 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage (in by 7th, having only given up 1 caster level and 1 point of BAB). Your blasts can focus on ranged touch spells (which will hit with your BAB). But where you gain is switching out the Warmage spell list for picks from the Sorceror/Wizard spell list. Most notably the Alter Self/Polymorph chain. Alter Self - Lizardfolk gives you a +5 natural bonus to AC and it only gets better from there. (Yes, you can turn into a troglodyte for even more, but it smells). And you also get battlefield control spells as well as just blasting. Also instead of getting light or medium armour (and medium armour generally sucks as it doesn't give you much and slows you down), you can wear light armour and get a Mithral Large Shield without any arcane spell failure chance. By this point you are looking at AC and maneuverability that makes tanks jealous. It's still not a great build - but I think it is at least viable rather than being something that looks enviously at the spellcasting and combat potential of a Bard. And I don't think that it changes too much in the core concept to switch warmage out for battle sorceror - and not an amazing amount to change Warblade for Crusader when you are going into Jade Phoenix Mage anyway. Stats: Wis is your dump stat (both Battle Sorc and Spellblade give you good Will saves), and Charisma your high. After that it's up in the air. As for feats, Extra Granted Maneuver is always worth it for a Crusader. And the Martial Study feat to gain White Raven Tactics (at 9th level) is a bargain for the whole party.
#7 brainpiercing May 31, 2008 19:28:46	There are viable uses for a warmage. A gish build is not one of them. Then again, a Battle Sorceror is a really really crippled class. ONLY take it if your DM specifically allows Fauxlymorph and it's derivatives. If he doesn't I'd say stick with a Transmuter/incantatrix and get Divine Power from Arcane Disciple.