Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 viletta Dec 31, 2008 20:48:01	I'm going to be running a human Warmage. I know blasting is not the most effective use of magic. I know Warmage is a suboptimal class. I know human may not be the ideal class for a Warmage. My character is human, and she is a Warmage. Those are cast in stone. What I want is a blaster that focuses in a single spell to make it into an almighty bringer of doom. The Heaven and Hell One-Shot Sure-Kill Cannon for which this thread is named. What I'm thinking of doing is taking Arcane Thesis for an Orb of [X] spell, grabbing a boatload of metamagic and boosting that spell into godhood. My DM is fairly liberal. I should be able to talk two flaws out of him and he will probably let me get the Dragonblood subtype for free. So, Practical Metamagic can add to the insanity and Rapid Metamagic is, of course, a must. I crunched the numbers and I got a twin repeating admixed empowered maximized Orb of [X] would deal upwards of 900 damage if I could pull it off, but doing it gets pretty feat-heavy (read: Chewing through all my feats still leaves it out of reach. Unless there's something I missed.) when some of those metamagics take two feats to put into use (once to get in the first place, once to get Practical Metamagic on it). The theory is sound, but the practice is touchy. So, what I'm here to ask is for you, the people of Character Optimization, can help me optimize. I'd prefer to get up to at least Warmage level 10 in order to get Sudden Empower so that I can slap that on the sure-kill without spending the feat(s) or adjusting the spell level for it. Sudden Maximize would be nice, but as a capstone, it won't do me any good until the far off (and possibly never occurring) level 20 while some PrC or another may be a better option. So, the spot I'm in is that the direct approach of gobbling up all the feats for the full doomsday blast simply won't work. What's the best y'all can think of for pumping up my damage? I'm willing to consider changing the spell so long as it's still vaguely cannon-like. Grabbing Force Missile through Advanced Learning comes to mind. The bragging rights target for damage at level 20 is to be able to (on average) one-shot a great wyrm red dragon with a single blast, which is 660 HP of damage. Edit: Otyugh Hole- Iron Will 1- Empower Spell 3- Twin Spell 6- Repeat Spell 7(B)- Maximize Spell 9- Arcane Thesis: Force Missile 10(B)- Enervate Spell 12- Metamagic School Focus: Evocation 13(B)- Heighten Spell 15- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 17(B)- Quicken Spell 18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell
#2 NiteCyper Dec 31, 2008 22:46:07	[thread=17241447]Warmage useful? Enter Geomancer...[/thread] Second post includes link to Alix the Fiery, a Warmage soloist. Warmage Build Guide and Compendium does not originate from the CharOp forums
#3 viletta Dec 31, 2008 23:36:40	The Geomancer link is broken, but the other... I've seen it before and it didn't seem particularly useful for my own ends, but it did remind me that Incantrix exists. That crazy beast is like taking Arcane Thesis all over again. On its own it may get me the cannon, though only at high levels. So... 1- Iron Will 1- Transdimensional Spell 1- Repeat Spell 1- Twin Spell 3- Arcane Thesis 6- Energy Substitution 7(B)- Energy Admixture 9- Rapid Metamagic 10(B)- Chain Spell 12- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 13(B)- Empower Spell 15- Practical Metamagic: Twin Spell 17(B)- Heighten Spell 18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell So, since Arcane Thesis doesn't bottom out at +1, a number of effects go down to +0. That comes out to a base level 4 spell with +0 for twin, +1 for repeat, +2 for admix, +0 for maximize, and +0 for empower. That's a level seven orb dealing the full 900 damage. Another +1 for chain spell makes an area effect doing 450 to everyone else in the area. Heighten Spell lets me cast it using those higher-level slots that I wouldn't need otherwise. Well, I suppose that one class answers everything quite nicely. This should end up a real engine of destruction. Even if the DM throws out something immune to my main two elements, I can still use insane metamagic on my other spells to keep up. I guess I really didn't need much help. Anything I missed?
#4 NiteCyper Dec 31, 2008 23:47:47	Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel for free Iron Will feat. Check out the Shadowcraft Mage optimization thread for similar optimization. The PrC requires you to be a Gnome but just gleen for ideas. There's that Force Missile specialization Mage PrC too. I'm trying to think of any thing that may help because I'm not familiar with such a build idea. I've seen them on the boards but never did extensive research on them.
#5 surreal Jan 01, 2009 4:15:04	Here's the link to Alix the Fiery... http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14547448 edit: if that doesn't work, p.44 of this massive thread... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=955379
#6 immolate Jan 01, 2009 7:44:02	What's the purpose of heightening a spell with no save? Is it the chain?
#7 viletta Jan 01, 2009 8:33:05	Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel for free Iron Will feat. Check out the Shadowcraft Mage optimization thread for similar optimization. The PrC requires you to be a Gnome but just gleen for ideas. There's that Force Missile specialization Mage PrC too. I'm trying to think of any thing that may help because I'm not familiar with such a build idea. I've seen them on the boards but never did extensive research on them. Argent Savant... that one's trouble. The Incantrix's capstone is essential. However, since I need to be WM6 to get there (3rd level spells) and I can't get another Advanced Learning until WM11, that means I can't get Force Missile and the Incantrix capstone... I guess I can talk the DM into pushing that back a couple levels... But for qualifying for AS, I don't think the entire WM list has enough force spells to qualify. (Magic Missile, Orb of Force, AL for some level 1 or 0 force spell, AL for Force Missile, and I think that's it.) And I'm already pushing DM generosity for it. The Force Missile version would miss out on Energy Admixture, but I'd free up those feats, have a super spell that's harder to resist... And Argent Savant's +1 bonus to every die of damage is attractive when the spell would be dealing, like, 120 die of damage. What's the purpose of heightening a spell with no save? Is it the chain? It's just casting it at all. As things stand, I'd have no use for the ninth level spell slots. So, Heighten Spell lets me put 'em to work.
#8 immolate Jan 01, 2009 9:29:11	Just looked at chain spell, and it does allow reflex saves for secondary targets, thus making heighten spell useful. And yet, a 15d capped single-target spell seems to pale next to the uncapped brokenness of the warmage's first cousin's signature spell, wings of flurry. But I do understand the compulsion to practice self-restraint, even when optimizing. You do have to go to war with the DM you have, not the DM you want. I do wonder what a DM will have to do to pose a challenge to someone who can lay down that kind of primary and secondary damage in a single casting, other than come up with a rationale for a whole line of opponents with insanely high touch AC and extra-dimensional buffs like blink. Easily worked around, of course, but still I have to ponder what the game will become.
#9 rasmus_wagner Jan 01, 2009 9:59:06	It's just casting it at all. As things stand, I'd have no use for the ninth level spell slots. So, Heighten Spell lets me put 'em to work. You can cast spells using a higher-level spell slot anytime you want to. No need for Heighten.
#10 DeAnno Jan 01, 2009 11:39:43	If you're going whole-hog with an Orb, I'd recommend Ecletic Learning 6 to be True Strike and Ecletic Learning 16 to be Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). Spellsurging will let you pull off a swift true strike and a standard metamagicked orb each round, with no need for Rapid Metamagic. The downside is it doesn't shape up till 16, but if you can retrain into it I'd consider it. Sadly, you pretty much can't do this AND the Incantrix, but if your DM is reactionary enough to throw a lot of high touch ACs, it might be cause for fear. You could mix it with an Argent Savant...
#11 17flyingaxes Jan 01, 2009 18:07:46	A Metamagic Storm (Complete Mage 151) requires you have a metamagic feat- and you will- and grants you another metamagic feat for 1 year, and you can use the storm to get a metamagic feat after this year is up. This is worth 5000G. Also, try hoarding metamagic rods—if your damage cannon is a low enough level, this should be cost-acceptable. Lastly, getting three levels in Human Paragon will cost you one caster level but give you bonus skills, hp, +2 to int, and an extra feat.
#12 archerpwr Jan 01, 2009 18:40:10	If you're going whole-hog with an Orb, I'd recommend Ecletic Learning 6 to be True Strike and Ecletic Learning 16 to be Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). Spellsurging will let you pull off a swift true strike and a standard metamagicked orb each round, with no need for Rapid Metamagic. The downside is it doesn't shape up till 16, but if you can retrain into it I'd consider it. Sadly, you pretty much can't do this AND the Incantrix, but if your DM is reactionary enough to throw a lot of high touch ACs, it might be cause for fear. You could mix it with an Argent Savant... Any reason why not? Warmage 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Warmage +1 to grab it.
#13 tana_san Jan 01, 2009 20:07:16	Heighten Spell is a good choice because without it Globe of Invulnerability will block Orb spells.
#14 viletta Jan 02, 2009 19:12:50	Any reason why not? Warmage 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Warmage +1 to grab it. Warmages are like most spontaneous casters, advancing spell levels on even levels, so I wouldn't have 3rd level spells until level 6 and couldn't go into Incantrix until level 7. Thus, I'm stuck with Advanced Learning at levels 3 and 6. And the next Advanced Learning is at WM11, while I need Inc10 for its capstone, meaning I can't grab a level 4+ spell with Advanced Learning. I'll have to make do. If I want a force spell, I'm not going to be able to top Orb of Force, sadly. Heighten Spell is a good choice because without it Globe of Invulnerability will block Orb spells. Excellent point. Heighten Spell is definitely going to have to stay in. True Strike seems like a grand choice, and I'm pretty sure there's a naturally swift version in the spell compendium. Though Advanced Learning at level 16 isn't going to happen. I've found another way to really, REALLY bring this thing together that a friend pointed out. Incantrix lowers all the metamagic one level, Arcane Thesis lowers all the metamagic a level, and to lower everything a third level... Slaymate! These little critters are basically zombie children, and they have an aura that lowers the level modification to any metamagic effect applied to a necromancy spell, and as I recall, there is a metamagic feat that can turn any spell into necromancy. Thing is, I can't recall what it is or where it's from. So, I find a slaymate, catch it, encase it in steel, wear it on my back like a gourd, and abuse its aura. Of the metamagic I'm using, everything except Energy Admixture and Twin Spell will be brought down to no level adjustment. I may even grab Arcane Thesis once more so that I can affect Orb of Force and have a card not subject to energy immunities.
#15 ChristopherGroves Jan 02, 2009 19:35:13	Fiery is cool. Fiery + one level of Sanctified One (Kord) is better. Why do fire when you can purge with holy flame?
#16 reis Jan 02, 2009 23:52:55	I do wonder what a DM will have to do to pose a challenge to someone who can lay down that kind of primary and secondary damage in a single casting, other than come up with a rationale for a whole line of opponents with insanely high touch AC and extra-dimensional buffs like blink. Easily worked around, of course, but still I have to ponder what the game will become. make you fight abjurer focused specialists 4 levels higher than you with ray deflection and force ward cast at their ECL+10 or so so you can't dispel it even if you roll a nat 20. the game becomes one where warmage won't cut it as a valid party member.
#17 archerpwr Jan 03, 2009 0:49:59	Warmages are like most spontaneous casters, advancing spell levels on even levels, so I wouldn't have 3rd level spells until level 6 and couldn't go into Incantrix until level 7. Thus, I'm stuck with Advanced Learning at levels 3 and 6. And the next Advanced Learning is at WM11, while I need Inc10 for its capstone, meaning I can't grab a level 4+ spell with Advanced Learning. I'll have to make do. If I want a force spell, I'm not going to be able to top Orb of Force, sadly. With all books in play we *can* cheat our way around spell level X. Ranks are the only real issue with most PrCs.
#18 NiteCyper Jan 03, 2009 2:04:04	With all books in play we *can* cheat our way around spell level X. Ranks are the only real issue with most PrCs. On the topic, how do you get extra ranks into a skill? I would use the search engine but keywords for such a search are difficult to conjure.
#19 archerpwr Jan 03, 2009 2:42:27	On the topic, how do you get extra ranks into a skill? I would use the search engine but keywords for such a search are difficult to conjure. Favored of the guild or something from cityscape, but frankly it usually isn't worth the trouble (two feats for one level).
#20 Endarire Jan 21, 2009 22:21:25	The most recent build isn't RAW since Arcane Thesis demands 9 ranks. You can swap it for Energy Substitution.
#21 viletta Jan 22, 2009 1:49:50	I know. That was a super rough draft. The progression has since been altered. Here's the Orb of Force version. Otyugh Hole- Iron Will 1- Empower Spell 3- Twin Spell 6- Repeat Spell 7(B)- Maximize Spell 9- Arcane Thesis: Orb of Force 10(B)- Enervate Spell 12- Metamagic School Focus: Evocation 13(B)- Heighten Spell 15- Practical Metamagic: Maximize Spell 17(B)- Quicken Spell 18- Practical Metamagic: Repeat Spell
#22 stpetegamer Jan 22, 2009 8:19:27	You should google search this site for the Mailman. It is a build that does exactly what you are looking for.
#23 viletta Jan 22, 2009 12:06:10	I'm quite familiar with The Mailman, and while it is quite good, it is the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. The Mailman strives to avoid being a one-trick wonder. I'm trying to embrace one-trick status in favor of raw damage.